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Post by Roswell on Jan 21, 2022 12:55:16 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into all the specifics I have learned about Ross. But he has a reputation across the NFL as a poor talent evaluator and a worse work ethic. The main reason Reese has not been able to find another opportunity to be a GM in the NFL is because of two main things, #1 he hired Ross and #2 he didn't fire Ross. Owners do not want GMs who will both make a bad hire and then refuse to fix that mistake when it becomes evident. There is no argument that Reese was a terrific GM for the first 4 or 5 years of his Giants' tenure. I have no idea what changed or what went wrong. Many here view it as Ross, who knows? If that wasn't the cause, that's fine it just puts it all back on Reese. It's a results business. Reese had great results first half and horrendous results second half. Gettelman clearly outperformed him by consistently being horrendous. Reese was very deserving of credit for the 2 SBs. He was also very deserving of his termination after the second half of his tenure. That said, I'm surprised he was never given another chance in the NFL. He does have 2 rings.
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 21, 2022 14:46:09 GMT -5
Everyone here loves to hate on Marc Ross....yet they have no idea what he did or didn't do in the organization. You included. Now of course you could demonstrate otherwise if you so choose. You have chosen not to. So how does this make you any different from anyone else here who is armed with nothing but an uninformed opinion? At Least I am not assuming anything about Marc Ross. I admit that I know what I don't know. Well because mine isn't an opinion, you just don't believe the information source. That is your prerogative. I didn't share my opinion, I shared information I have been told. Not sure how you can't identify the difference. If a reported states they heard from sources that Schoen and Peters are the top candidates for GM, would you call it their opinion? No, you would call it passing on information. Now you can question the accuracy of that information, but it doesn't mean what they said is an opinion when it wasn't. What source is that? and what does this source claim?
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 21, 2022 14:47:23 GMT -5
There is no argument that Reese was a terrific GM for the first 4 or 5 years of his Giants' tenure. I have no idea what changed or what went wrong. Many here view it as Ross, who knows? If that wasn't the cause, that's fine it just puts it all back on Reese. It's a results business. Reese had great results first half and horrendous results second half. Gettelman clearly outperformed him by consistently being horrendous. Reese was very deserving of credit for the 2 SBs. He was also very deserving of his termination after the second half of his tenure. That said, I'm surprised he was never given another chance in the NFL. He does have 2 rings. It's a young man's league and teams are always looking for the next new thing......especially teams with a poor track record.
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Post by jmike on Jan 21, 2022 14:56:58 GMT -5
Well because mine isn't an opinion, you just don't believe the information source. That is your prerogative. I didn't share my opinion, I shared information I have been told. Not sure how you can't identify the difference. If a reported states they heard from sources that Schoen and Peters are the top candidates for GM, would you call it their opinion? No, you would call it passing on information. Now you can question the accuracy of that information, but it doesn't mean what they said is an opinion when it wasn't. What source is that? and what does this source claim? I stated what this source claimed and I told you I won't tell you anything about this person. Sorry if your memory is going, but you are going to have to scroll back to my post to see the claim.
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Post by GameTime on Jan 21, 2022 16:01:51 GMT -5
he is gone and history has been made. Its over with. If you dwell on it then you just got "Gettleman'd" Seeing how the new GM is from Buffalo, you might have to change your avatar to bbq wings. would be happy to do that. I am going to wait for over 8 wins first in 2022. ..lol
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 21, 2022 18:27:44 GMT -5
What source is that? and what does this source claim? I stated what this source claimed and I told you I won't tell you anything about this person. Sorry if your memory is going, but you are going to have to scroll back to my post to see the claim. Very convenient.
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Post by Dezzr on Jan 21, 2022 18:54:32 GMT -5
I think Reese simply got promoted beyond the Peter Principle. He was excellent at evaluating talent, but he wasn't so good at finding good talent evaluators to surround himself with. Ross is the clear example. It is why the front office performance got progressively worse over time. This is my concern about these GM candidates. Hortiz, Peters, etc... seem like great talent evaluators; but the GM's job is to make decisions based on information from the talent evaluators. Can they find good people, would they even know what to look for in a scouting director? I have no idea and I think these interviews should be more about how prepared they are to build and develop a front office and less about how good their previous player evaluations were. If they got to this point, we can be pretty confident they are good talent evaluators. Now they need to go out and find more people like they were. I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Ross. The bottom line is that as the team had more success..., the more Tom Coughlin became more powerful in picking players and general team building. I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Tom.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 21, 2022 19:09:53 GMT -5
I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Ross. The bottom line is that as the team had more success..., the more Tom Coughlin became more powerful in picking players and general team building. I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Tom. Why? I thought this was settled? In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it was all Reese.
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Post by jmike on Jan 22, 2022 9:00:14 GMT -5
I stated what this source claimed and I told you I won't tell you anything about this person. Sorry if your memory is going, but you are going to have to scroll back to my post to see the claim. Very convenient. Agreed, it is quite convenient to have your words recorded in such a way. That way it is more difficult for people to misrepresent what you said. They still can do it and will quite often, but at least for those not too lazy to look, the record is there.
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Post by jmike on Jan 22, 2022 9:01:07 GMT -5
I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Ross. The bottom line is that as the team had more success..., the more Tom Coughlin became more powerful in picking players and general team building. I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Tom. Yes, what is his evidence that TC became more powerful in picking players?
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Post by jmike on Jan 22, 2022 12:05:10 GMT -5
Would you waste your time arguing with me about what type of dish soup is at your kitchen sink? You know what is there, I don't, what is there to argue about? This is the same situation. It is a waste of my time and has zero relevance to the point I was making with the post in the first place. I bet it’s Palmolive. And he probably effeminately soaks his hands in it like the old commercials. Disagree. I'll bet it is usually some randomly scented version of dawn most of the time; but when he is sent out for the shopping it will be whatever is the first one he sees near the end of the aisle.
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 22, 2022 12:39:50 GMT -5
I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Tom. Yes, what is his evidence that TC became more powerful in picking players? 1. That is the Giants way. (or was) 2. Tom's personality suggests it. Can you imagine JR drafting a player Tom didn't want? 3. Tom presence was huge in the combines. Did you ever see JR there? 4. It took Tom 1 minute to sign Ereck Flowers after we dumped him. 5. Deductive reasoning. Any other conclusion would be counter intuitive.
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te88
Special Teams
Posts: 1,998
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Post by te88 on Jan 22, 2022 13:21:40 GMT -5
Yes, what is his evidence that TC became more powerful in picking players? 1. That is the Giants way. (or was) 2. Tom's personality suggests it. Can you imagine JR drafting a player Tom didn't want? 3. Tom presence was huge in the combines. Did you ever see JR there? 4. It took Tom 1 minute to sign Ereck Flowers after we dumped him. 5. Deductive reasoning. Any other conclusion would be counter intuitive. If Jason Garrett had enough influence to push the Andrew Thomas pick than you can bet your house that TC had pllllllenty of power when he was here.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 22, 2022 15:05:57 GMT -5
I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Tom. Yes, what is his evidence that TC became more powerful in picking players? Evidence? Same as Ross, none.
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 22, 2022 16:48:04 GMT -5
Yes, what is his evidence that TC became more powerful in picking players? Evidence? Same as Ross, none. I'm sorry. Marc Ross was a cog in the machine. He had NO decision making power at all. Yet according to some, he personally destroyed the New York Giants. Tom Coughlin was the head coach. If you don't think he had tremendous influence over what players were acquired then your head is in the sand.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 22, 2022 17:03:33 GMT -5
Evidence? Same as Ross, none. I'm sorry. Marc Ross was a cog in the machine. He had NO decision making power at all. Yet according to some, he personally destroyed the New York Giants. Tom Coughlin was the head coach. If you don't think he had tremendous influence over what players were acquired then your head is in the sand. We don't know that. I can certainly accept that the HC has influence in the organization, whether he has final decision making authority over drafting players, I don't know that to be true. But he certainly has a voice in the process. I'd say the VP of Player Evaluation and the Director of College Scouting also has influence in the organization and very likely not final decision making authority over drafting players. So there's at least a distinction if not a verified difference, but I thought the bar was evidence of culpability. All I see is two guys at a crime scene and no evidence of which pulled the trigger. And I don't know where you conjured up the idea that I don't think he had tremendous influence over what players were acquired, I think they both probably did. We're just discussing the percentages thereof without the burden of data. I do have to admit that as far as narratives go, I do rather prefer the Marc Ross ruined the Giants one to Jerry Reese ruined the Giants.
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 22, 2022 17:07:43 GMT -5
I'm sorry. Marc Ross was a cog in the machine. He had NO decision making power at all. Yet according to some, he personally destroyed the New York Giants. Tom Coughlin was the head coach. If you don't think he had tremendous influence over what players were acquired then your head is in the sand. We don't know that. I can certainly accept that the HC has influence in the organization, whether he has final decision making authority over drafting players, I don't know that to be true. But he certainly has a voice in the process. I'd say the VP of Player Evaluation and the Director of College Scouting also has influence in the organization and very likely not final decision making authority over drafting players. So there's at least a distinction if not a verified difference, but I thought the bar was evidence of culpability. All I see is two guys at a crime scene and no evidence of which pulled the trigger. And I don't know where you conjured up the idea that I don't think he had tremendous influence over what players were acquired, I think they both probably did. We're just discussing the percentages thereof without the burden of data. I do have to admit that as far as narratives go, I do rather prefer the Marc Ross ruined the Giants one to Jerry Reese ruined the Giants. I never said anything about anyone having "the final say".....whatever that is. I said his power increased with his success. To deny that is the deny realities of the human experience.
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Post by Jomo on Jan 22, 2022 17:08:44 GMT -5
BTW, I soured on DG in less than half the time it took me to sour on JR.
Both needed to go. Both were arrogant and dismissive in the face of terrible decisions. Both were poor overall in the draft except for 2007. Both were unable to rebuild an OL that was aging out with a 3 year advanced notice under JR. But JR was here for 2 SB runs and his part in them.
So DG got 3 years of silence out of me and JR got about 8.
Here's hoping for something much better from Schoen.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 22, 2022 17:17:07 GMT -5
We don't know that. I can certainly accept that the HC has influence in the organization, whether he has final decision making authority over drafting players, I don't know that to be true. But he certainly has a voice in the process. I'd say the VP of Player Evaluation and the Director of College Scouting also has influence in the organization and very likely not final decision making authority over drafting players. So there's at least a distinction if not a verified difference, but I thought the bar was evidence of culpability. All I see is two guys at a crime scene and no evidence of which pulled the trigger. And I don't know where you conjured up the idea that I don't think he had tremendous influence over what players were acquired, I think they both probably did. We're just discussing the percentages thereof without the burden of data. I do have to admit that as far as narratives go, I do rather prefer the Marc Ross ruined the Giants one to Jerry Reese ruined the Giants. I never said anything about anyone having "the final say".....whatever that is. I said his power increased with his success. To deny that is the deny realities of the human experience. Again with the purple prose! As much as I love to deny the realities of the human experience whenever possible, I can certainly accept that his power increased with his success. I'm saying they both had influence and that I, and you apparently, do not have any evidence to quantify any of it. Yet Coughlin's guilty and Ross is innocent.
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 22, 2022 23:46:02 GMT -5
I never said anything about anyone having "the final say".....whatever that is. I said his power increased with his success. To deny that is the deny realities of the human experience. Again with the purple prose! As much as I love to deny the realities of the human experience whenever possible, I can certainly accept that his power increased with his success. I'm saying they both had influence and that I, and you apparently, do not have any evidence to quantify any of it. Yet Coughlin's guilty and Ross is innocent. I have no idea what Marc Ross did or didn't do with our team. The difference between me and other posters is that I am willing to admit it. The difference between Tom Coughlin and Marc Ross is that Tom was a decision maker. He was the HC. Marc Ross was a subordinate. He had NO decision making power.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 23, 2022 1:03:16 GMT -5
Again with the purple prose! As much as I love to deny the realities of the human experience whenever possible, I can certainly accept that his power increased with his success. I'm saying they both had influence and that I, and you apparently, do not have any evidence to quantify any of it. Yet Coughlin's guilty and Ross is innocent. I have no idea what Marc Ross did or didn't do with our team. The difference between me and other posters is that I am willing to admit it. The difference between Tom Coughlin and Marc Ross is that Tom was a decision maker. He was the HC. Marc Ross was a subordinate. He had NO decision making power. That's not a whole lot of evidence, I'm just saying. I agree that Ross a level down from Coughlin, but I expect in the draft discussions his voice is not muted. He wasn't a small cog, he had big responsibilities. I'm saying that if we can't quantify his portion of the ruination of the Giants how can we quantify Coughlin's? A level more? I think folks like to blame Ross because his ascension in Reese's organization seemed to coincide with the decline of its results. Personally I'm ok with that because I like Reese and don't really give a crap about Ross.
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 23, 2022 11:09:59 GMT -5
I have no idea what Marc Ross did or didn't do with our team. The difference between me and other posters is that I am willing to admit it. The difference between Tom Coughlin and Marc Ross is that Tom was a decision maker. He was the HC. Marc Ross was a subordinate. He had NO decision making power. That's not a whole lot of evidence, I'm just saying. I agree that Ross a level down from Coughlin, but I expect in the draft discussions his voice is not muted. He wasn't a small cog, he had big responsibilities. I'm saying that if we can't quantify his portion of the ruination of the Giants how can we quantify Coughlin's? A level more? I think folks like to blame Ross because his ascension in Reese's organization seemed to coincide with the decline of its results. Personally I'm ok with that because I like Reese and don't really give a crap about Ross. This post was not intended to "offer evidence". it was to explain the meaninglessness of complaining about Marc Ross......When no one can know any position he took that hurt the team.......including me.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jan 23, 2022 11:20:58 GMT -5
That's not a whole lot of evidence, I'm just saying. I agree that Ross a level down from Coughlin, but I expect in the draft discussions his voice is not muted. He wasn't a small cog, he had big responsibilities. I'm saying that if we can't quantify his portion of the ruination of the Giants how can we quantify Coughlin's? A level more? I think folks like to blame Ross because his ascension in Reese's organization seemed to coincide with the decline of its results. Personally I'm ok with that because I like Reese and don't really give a crap about Ross. This post was not intended to "offer evidence". it was to explain the meaninglessness of complaining about Marc Ross......When no one can know any position he took that hurt the team.......including me. We know that Marc Ross was in love with Richburg simply by the comments he made that he was so good, he could start for us as college player.
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 23, 2022 14:05:07 GMT -5
This post was not intended to "offer evidence". it was to explain the meaninglessness of complaining about Marc Ross......When no one can know any position he took that hurt the team.......including me. We know that Marc Ross was in love with Richburg simply by the comments he made that he was so good, he could start for us as college player. Kyle Shanahan loved Weston Richburg. Unfortunately, he tore his patellar tendon which ended his career.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jan 23, 2022 15:18:26 GMT -5
We know that Marc Ross was in love with Richburg simply by the comments he made that he was so good, he could start for us as college player. Kyle Shanahan loved Weston Richburg. Unfortunately, he tore his patellar tendon which ended his career.
I know you liked him but it wasn't as if he came and made an impact. He was small and got manhandled too much for my liking.
Was he used incorrectly as a Giant? Idk. I just viewed him as undersized not very good.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 23, 2022 15:22:04 GMT -5
That's not a whole lot of evidence, I'm just saying. I agree that Ross a level down from Coughlin, but I expect in the draft discussions his voice is not muted. He wasn't a small cog, he had big responsibilities. I'm saying that if we can't quantify his portion of the ruination of the Giants how can we quantify Coughlin's? A level more? I think folks like to blame Ross because his ascension in Reese's organization seemed to coincide with the decline of its results. Personally I'm ok with that because I like Reese and don't really give a crap about Ross. This post was not intended to "offer evidence". it was to explain the meaninglessness of complaining about Marc Ross......When no one can know any position he took that hurt the team.......including me. Sure, like Coughlin it's anecdotal.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jan 23, 2022 22:27:37 GMT -5
Gabriel Davis 2020 4th round
Another blown opportunity to put young dynamic weapons around a young recently drafted at 6 qb ...
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 23, 2022 22:30:00 GMT -5
This post was not intended to "offer evidence". it was to explain the meaninglessness of complaining about Marc Ross......When no one can know any position he took that hurt the team.......including me. Sure, like Coughlin it's anecdotal. With all due respect, I think you are misapplying the word "anecdotal".
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Post by thetruth on Jan 23, 2022 23:05:09 GMT -5
Gabriel Davis 2020 4th round Another blown opportunity to put young dynamic weapons around a young recently drafted at 6 qb ... still remember telling people we dont need to invest in the first round to find weapons. They were shocked, and angry!
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 23, 2022 23:19:05 GMT -5
Sure, like Coughlin it's anecdotal. With all due respect, I think you are misapplying the word "anecdotal". No offense taken, quantify it for me.
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