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Post by GameTime on Jan 28, 2022 14:19:03 GMT -5
Schoen says the HC much work in lock step with he and the plan he has.
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FBomb
Special Teams
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Post by FBomb on Jan 28, 2022 14:34:47 GMT -5
Judge didn't get to pick his. Yet waited 1.6 seasons to fire him? Not letting Judge off the hook for this. A suggestion was made to him, he went with it, vetted the guy, hired the guy, developed an offense with him. The offense sucked, he didn't fire him in the offseason, brought him back, then fired him. Sounds pretty indecisive to me, or a bunch of baloney that Garrett was "literally forced on him." Who said anything about letting Judge off the hook? I waa responding to someone who said that HC's get to pick thier own OC's. As far as the other stuff, Judge had to get Mara's approval to fire Garrett. |
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Post by jaymas on Jan 28, 2022 15:44:52 GMT -5
Yet waited 1.6 seasons to fire him? Not letting Judge off the hook for this. A suggestion was made to him, he went with it, vetted the guy, hired the guy, developed an offense with him. The offense sucked, he didn't fire him in the offseason, brought him back, then fired him. Sounds pretty indecisive to me, or a bunch of baloney that Garrett was "literally forced on him." Who said anything about letting Judge off the hook? I waa responding to someone who said that HC's get to pick thier own OC's. As far as the other stuff, Judge had to get Mara's approval to fire Garrett. But that's not true. All we know is Mara made a recomendation to Judge, not a mandate to hire the guy or get approval. |
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Post by Roosevelt on Jan 28, 2022 17:15:08 GMT -5
I know some like to toss that a round but it's never has never been substantiated.
It's very obvious that some Giants fans either don't listen to John Mara when he speaks about the team's structure or they think he's bullshitting us with it.
But I'd like one person to tell me the logic that lies behind not allowing your newly hired head coach to pick his own staff.
If you don't feel comfortable with your head coach's ability to pick his own coaches, than you are an idiot for hiring him in the first place.
I think for the 2nd or 3rd time NYG brass "got played" by what other coach snubbings or hirings occurred. I think they jumped the gun hiring Judge because of the huge endorsement by BB but also they were incensed how Rhule played Carolina against them. I don't blame them one bit for throwing Rhule the middle finger when he supposedly said NYG was his dream job but It lead to Judge. Perhaps they felt if they provided him a "set of training wheels" (Garrett) it would take some pressure off him. Not to mention, I feel that some of the NYG brass(Mara) preferred Garrett. BS compromise crap. Let us not forget, NYG was getting snubbed regularly. Back then it was thought it was because they were sticking with Eli. GM candidate Dorsey grabbed Cleveland before interviewing, Hugh Jackson cancelled a HC interview, Patricia I believe declined an interview, so they went through being jilted. It does feel different this time, but in the end I just want who Schoen thinks is best. Maybe that's because Gettleman was here? I don't know.
But I think it only makes sense that the Giants are not the right fit for everyone. If you don't have success it can be a brutal place to be. But no one has a better parade when you win.
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FBomb
Special Teams
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Post by FBomb on Jan 28, 2022 17:20:29 GMT -5
Who said anything about letting Judge off the hook? I waa responding to someone who said that HC's get to pick thier own OC's. As far as the other stuff, Judge had to get Mara's approval to fire Garrett. But that's not true. All we know is Mara made a recomendation to Judge, not a mandate to hire the guy or get approval. How do you know it isn't true? Evetything I heard was that Joe wasn't happy about it from the start and it helped lead to the fight he had with the oline coach. You don't have any idea if it's true or not. |
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Post by jaymas on Jan 28, 2022 17:31:01 GMT -5
But that's not true. All we know is Mara made a recomendation to Judge, not a mandate to hire the guy or get approval. How do you know it isn't true? Evetything I heard was that Joe wasn't happy about it from the start and it helped lead to the fight he had with the oline coach. You don't have any idea if it's true or not. Because all the quotes are around how Mara made a recommendation, that's it. He's said that himself. And the stories about Judge's frustration stemming all the way to last year, if true, make me flabbergasted that he didn't make the change in the offseason. Obviously he ended up firing the guy, and Mara didn't stop him, so this idea he was forced or it was mandated doesn't really hold up. And really, if we're doing the "how do you know it's true" gig...how do you know what you're saying is true? If we pessimistically say all sources and all quotes made externally are bullshit, we have nothing to ever talk about. It's about using all the information we have available as fans to draw some logical conclusions. Some sources are better than others, some beat guys are better than others, sure...but none of us know anything firsthand. So my opinion is, if this was mandated/forced against Judge's will, why was he allowed to fire him at all? The head coach always makes their staffing hires with the NYG. That's pretty well documented. Doesn't mean people won't be recommended. I'm sure Judge could have said "thanks for the recc., John, but after talking to him, I don't think we're aligned with my vision for this offense, I'm going to go in another direction." |
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Jan 28, 2022 17:48:04 GMT -5
I'm sure whoever the HC is he gets to pick his OC and DC. I think it's more rare when they don't than when they do. The HC should absolutely pick his staff. Judge didn't get to pick his. Yea, I know with Garrett but was that true with the others too ? What were we thinking with that whole situation. We had to get rid of McAdoo. I was one of the loudest screaming for his head. But we apparently were just reacting with no real -plan it seems. Hindsight of course is 20-20. What a waste of the last 2 years. We would still have drafted the same good players at #1 and #2 draft picks. But these HC candidates have more respect of their legacy than Judge. He had no history. Especially with Graham interviewing for the Vikes and Dabol interviewing for Miami over the weekend. Leslie Frazier got a 2nd interview from us. These people should pick their own staff I think. |
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FBomb
Special Teams
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Post by FBomb on Jan 28, 2022 17:49:01 GMT -5
How do you know it isn't true? Evetything I heard was that Joe wasn't happy about it from the start and it helped lead to the fight he had with the oline coach. You don't have any idea if it's true or not. Because all the quotes are around how Mara made a recommendation, that's it. He's said that himself. And the stories about Judge's frustration stemming all the way to last year, if true, make me flabbergasted that he didn't make the change in the offseason. Obviously he ended up firing the guy, and Mara didn't stop him, so this idea he was forced or it was mandated doesn't really hold up. And really, if we're doing the "how do you know it's true" gig...how do you know what you're saying is true? If we pessimistically say all sources and all quotes made externally are bullshit, we have nothing to ever talk about. It's about using all the information we have available as fans to draw some logical conclusions. Some sources are better than others, some beat guys are better than others, sure...but none of us know anything firsthand. So my opinion is, if this was mandated/forced against Judge's will, why was he allowed to fire him at all? The head coach always makes their staffing hires with the NYG. That's pretty well documented. Doesn't mean people won't be recommended. I'm sure Judge could have said "thanks for the recc., John, but after talking to him, I don't think we're aligned with my vision for this offense, I'm going to go in another direction." Im not the one who claimed my opinim was the true one....you did. Evetything I've seen and read tells a completely different story than yours. IN MY OPINION..Garrett was a stipulation for hiring an unexperienced special teams coach to be the head coach AND that he and Garrett didn't get along well. He wanted him gone last season but upper management insisted. Things finally got so bad with the offense that Joe finally had the leverage and permission from above to fire him. So, show me the proof that it went the way you said it did our stop saying your opinion is the truth. |
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Post by jaymas on Jan 28, 2022 17:55:32 GMT -5
Because all the quotes are around how Mara made a recommendation, that's it. He's said that himself. And the stories about Judge's frustration stemming all the way to last year, if true, make me flabbergasted that he didn't make the change in the offseason. Obviously he ended up firing the guy, and Mara didn't stop him, so this idea he was forced or it was mandated doesn't really hold up. And really, if we're doing the "how do you know it's true" gig...how do you know what you're saying is true? If we pessimistically say all sources and all quotes made externally are bullshit, we have nothing to ever talk about. It's about using all the information we have available as fans to draw some logical conclusions. Some sources are better than others, some beat guys are better than others, sure...but none of us know anything firsthand. So my opinion is, if this was mandated/forced against Judge's will, why was he allowed to fire him at all? The head coach always makes their staffing hires with the NYG. That's pretty well documented. Doesn't mean people won't be recommended. I'm sure Judge could have said "thanks for the recc., John, but after talking to him, I don't think we're aligned with my vision for this offense, I'm going to go in another direction." Im not the one who claimed my opinim was the true one....you did. Evetything I've seen and read tells a completely different story than yours. IN MY OPINION..Garrett was a stipulation for hiring an unexperienced special teams coach to be the head coach AND that he and Garrett didn't get along well. He wanted him gone last season but upper management insisted. Things finally got so bad with the offense that Joe finally had the leverage and permission from above to fire him. So, show me the proof that it went the way you said it did our stop saying your opinion is the truth. All of John Mara's quotes that he made a recommendation to Judge about Garrett, not a mandate. And the fact Judge fired Garrett. If you're on the camp that nothing Mara says is true and he lies about everything etc.(not saying you are), we're never going to agree. |
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Post by cruzsoldier on Jan 28, 2022 18:03:06 GMT -5
Whomever it is had better be versed in 2022 era offense and be able to develop a qb.. Schoen said that he wants someone who can best utilize Jone's strengths I'm not sure what those are but it's interesting what HC and OC the choose. We are making the same excuses for Jone's we made for Eli the last 3 years even when he had open WR's he could miss them by 5 yards. |
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FBomb
Special Teams
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Post by FBomb on Jan 28, 2022 18:05:04 GMT -5
Im not the one who claimed my opinim was the true one....you did. Evetything I've seen and read tells a completely different story than yours. IN MY OPINION..Garrett was a stipulation for hiring an unexperienced special teams coach to be the head coach AND that he and Garrett didn't get along well. He wanted him gone last season but upper management insisted. Things finally got so bad with the offense that Joe finally had the leverage and permission from above to fire him. So, show me the proof that it went the way you said it did our stop saying your opinion is the truth. All of John Mara's quotes that he made a recommendation to Judge about Garrett, not a mandate. And he fired Garrett. If you're on the camp that nothing Mara says is true and he lies about everything etc.(not saying you are), we're never going to agree. So, don't care if you agree with me or not. I didn't make the comment I made to get into a disussion with you about any of this. My point was about Flores and the numerous OC's that got fired in Miami. Joe Judge did not want Jason Garrett. Joe wanted to go all his own way, but the front office wanted someone with HC experience. He wanted him gone after the first season and the FO said no. The offense got worse so Joe finally was able to convince them to fire Garrett. From everything I've seen, that is the way I believe it went down. Prove me wrong. |
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FBomb
Special Teams
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Post by FBomb on Jan 28, 2022 18:06:09 GMT -5
All of John Mara's quotes that he made a recommendation to Judge about Garrett, not a mandate. And he fired Garrett. If you're on the camp that nothing Mara says is true and he lies about everything etc.(not saying you are), we're never going to agree. So, don't care if you agree with me or not. I didn't make the comment I made to get into a disussion with you about any of this. My point was about Flores and the numerous OC's that got fired in Miami. Joe Judge did not want Jason Garrett. Joe wanted to go all his own way, but the front office wanted someone with HC experience. He wanted him gone after the first season and the FO said no. The offense got worse so Joe finally was able to convince them to fire Garrett. From everything I've seen, that is the way I believe it went down. Prove me wrong. John Mara's "everything is fine" quotes not withstanding. |
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Post by Roosevelt on Jan 28, 2022 21:06:59 GMT -5
Judge didn't get to pick his. but was that true with the others too ? What were we thinking with that whole situation. We had to get rid of McAdoo. I was one of the loudest screaming for his head. But we apparently were just reacting with no real -plan it seems. Hindsight of course is 20-20. What a waste of the last 2 years. We would still have drafted the same good players at #1 and #2 draft picks. But these HC candidates have more respect of their legacy than Judge. He had no history. Especially with Graham interviewing for the Vikes and Dabol interviewing for Miami over the weekend. Leslie Frazier got a 2nd interview from us. These people should pick their own staff I think. Please share how you "know" this.
I have read not one credible source say that Mara forced Garrett on Judge. And I'll say it again. If you cannot even trust your Head Coach to assemble his own coaching staff, you'd have to be a moron to have hired that guy.
This is no different than those who believed Mara forced Eli on Gettleman and Shurmur, or that McAdoo was fired for benching Eli when Mara was the guy who wanted Eli benched.
Louis Riddick interviewed for the GM job and said Mara did not in anyway make him feel Eli would be forced on him.
It just makes no sense.
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te88
Special Teams
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Post by te88 on Jan 28, 2022 21:31:19 GMT -5
Yea, I know with Garrett but was that true with the others too ? What were we thinking with that whole situation. We had to get rid of McAdoo. I was one of the loudest screaming for his head. But we apparently were just reacting with no real -plan it seems. Hindsight of course is 20-20. What a waste of the last 2 years. We would still have drafted the same good players at #1 and #2 draft picks. But these HC candidates have more respect of their legacy than Judge. He had no history. Especially with Graham interviewing for the Vikes and Dabol interviewing for Miami over the weekend. Leslie Frazier got a 2nd interview from us. These people should pick their own staff I think. Please share how you "know" this.
I have read not one credible source say that Mara forced Garrett on Judge. And I'll say it again. If you cannot even trust your Head Coach to assemble his own coaching staff, you'd have to be a moron to have hired that guy.
This is no different than those who believed Mara forced Eli on Gettleman and Shurmur, or that McAdoo was fired for benching Eli when Mara was the guy who wanted Eli benched.
Louis Riddick interviewed for the GM job and said Mara did not in anyway make him feel Eli would be forced on him.
It just makes no sense.
And Riddick didn’t get the job - so what does that tell you. I think you guys underestimate John Maras incompetence as a senior manager. In a top down family-owned workplace like the Giants when the owner hints at what he wants or makes suggestions, things get complicated. Joe Judge came into his role beholden to John Mara for a prestigious position nobody else would have considered him for. This lays the foundation for a whole bunch of complex dynamics which undermine the autonomy of a person in a role like head coach. Even Tom Coughlin was pressured and presumably given ultimatums about his staff. He went through a lot of coordinators and he was also beholden to the Mara family for his job (remember, Ernie did NOT want Coughlin. It was all Wellington). So let’s not pretend like the Maras haven’t had a history of pressuring their coaches over staff - for better or worse it has been part of their MO and you can bet the reason the Maras have typically hired a coach independent of the GM is to be able to exert some control over the “football” part of the football team. The current situation is quite a contrast, and that’s part of what should give you a lot of hope about Schoen. |
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Post by Roosevelt on Jan 28, 2022 21:40:08 GMT -5
All of John Mara's quotes that he made a recommendation to Judge about Garrett, not a mandate. And he fired Garrett. If you're on the camp that nothing Mara says is true and he lies about everything etc.(not saying you are), we're never going to agree. So, don't care if you agree with me or not. I didn't make the comment I made to get into a disussion with you about any of this. My point was about Flores and the numerous OC's that got fired in Miami. Joe Judge did not want Jason Garrett. Joe wanted to go all his own way, but the front office wanted someone with HC experience. He wanted him gone after the first season and the FO said no. The offense got worse so Joe finally was able to convince them to fire Garrett. From everything I've seen, that is the way I believe it went down. Prove me wrong.
We all know somebody floated the idea that Garrett was forced on Joe, but I'm not buying it for the reasons I've said.
But here's what we know. Garrett was well-regarded by Mara and Tisch. After all Jason was a Giant for 4 years and his father was a Giants coach back in the 70's as well.
Ownership suggested Joe and Jason meet. They did and the meeting went well, and Joe hired him. Joe was asked if Jason was forced on him and he said point blank no, "I hire the staff."
No doubt their relationship deteriorated after Joe fired Columbo and that he considered letting Jason go before the start of this year. Now did Mara and Gettleman advise Judge to stick with Garrett as to not change OC's on Jones? Maybe. But ultimately it's the HC's decision to make that call.
Just imagine if Mara forced Jason out and forced Joe to go with Kitchens as his OC. Now that's a story.
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Post by Nite on Jan 28, 2022 21:47:21 GMT -5
Incorrect assumption
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