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Post by McCherry on Jan 29, 2024 12:04:55 GMT -5
Except we didn't pass on Parsons, we took 2 first round picks, a 4th and a 6th to move back. Any GM is going to take that deal. Especially when one of those picks was certain to be top-10 the following year. At the time, Giants were receiving high praise after the trade. Unfortunately, it all went downhill after that. Robinson was another quality prospect we took who's career was wiped out by injuries. I'm not saying it was a bad trade. Never have I said that and it should be praised as a great trade. Doesn't make it suck any less. And yes, we passed on Parsons, no matter how we spin it. The real tragedy of that draft which gets forgotten, wasn't Parsons. It was having Devontae Smith stolen away at the last second by the Eagles. I think that would've made us a better team than the other scenarios.
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Post by imgrate on Jan 29, 2024 13:33:10 GMT -5
I'm not saying it was a bad trade. Never have I said that and it should be praised as a great trade. Doesn't make it suck any less. And yes, we passed on Parsons, no matter how we spin it. The real tragedy of that draft which gets forgotten, wasn't Parsons. It was having Devontae Smith stolen away at the last second by the Eagles. I think that would've made us a better team than the other scenarios. Or, uhh passing on Rashawn Slater… we’d have two all pro caliber OTs right now.
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Aris
Special Teams
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Post by Aris on Jan 29, 2024 13:37:21 GMT -5
I'm not saying it was a bad trade. Never have I said that and it should be praised as a great trade. Doesn't make it suck any less. And yes, we passed on Parsons, no matter how we spin it. The real tragedy of that draft which gets forgotten, wasn't Parsons. It was having Devontae Smith stolen away at the last second by the Eagles. I think that would've made us a better team than the other scenarios. 1 second routes? The OL would render his skills nearly useless .... we're not talking Eagles OL Slater and Thomas as bookends and suddenly Gettleman is looking doable near closing time
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Aris
Special Teams
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Post by Aris on Jan 29, 2024 13:41:58 GMT -5
I wasn't shocked we passed on Parsons, I was shocked we let him go to Dallas after they let Philly jump us. But that's fair. Sucks when you consider we went and drafted Toney with a bunch of red flags also. Except we didn't pass on Parsons, we took 2 first round picks, a 4th and a 6th to move back. Any GM is going to take that deal. Especially when one of those picks was certain to be top-10 the following year. At the time, Giants were receiving high praise after the trade. Unfortunately, it all went downhill after that. Robinson was another quality prospect we took whose career was wiped out by injuries. Yep, and if Toney was a gamer, we would have that in open space threat any bad OL needs. Not wide right and left X receivers with the holes on this line and the need for time I still take all pro potential OL...it makes for any weapon dangerous and a QB's life more luxurious
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Post by McCherry on Jan 29, 2024 13:47:26 GMT -5
Except we didn't pass on Parsons, we took 2 first round picks, a 4th and a 6th to move back. Any GM is going to take that deal. Especially when one of those picks was certain to be top-10 the following year. At the time, Giants were receiving high praise after the trade. Unfortunately, it all went downhill after that. Robinson was another quality prospect we took whose career was wiped out by injuries. Yep, and if Toney was a gamer, we would have that in open space threat any bad OL needs. Not wide right and left X receivers with the holes on this line and the need for time I still take all pro potential OL...it makes for any weapon dangerous and a QB's life more luxurious But the problems on the interior of the OL would've still existed, and still do.
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Aris
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Post by Aris on Jan 29, 2024 14:51:23 GMT -5
Yep, and if Toney was a gamer, we would have that in open space threat any bad OL needs. Not wide right and left X receivers with the holes on this line and the need for time I still take all pro potential OL...it makes for any weapon dangerous and a QB's life more luxurious But the problems on the interior of the OL would've still existed, and still do. True, and the problems on edge and tight end and QB and condition coach etc will always be there as well..but the most important aspect of the OL is now all pro and it’s far easier to find sure thing guards then tackles…2nd round gems. Dickerson of the Eagles ….monster from Alabama was rumored to be a Giants big target but…Eagles snagged him first. Right idea, bad execution of getting your guy. Not easy getting a Slater and Thomas though…that is a 10 meter head start to finish the OL. Needless to say, the wall still needs to be built. Alt should be a big deal in the survival of our coaching staff and GM if we are stuck with Jones. I am not for overpaying for a at best average tackle in free agency again…however you can find decent guards that fit your offensive scheme for reasonable deals. I still like the Neal to LG idea…and drafting Alt. That kid is a once tight end with great bend, pro technique and athleticism. Neal and Thomas would create lanes on the left side…the playcalling could actually work, and add a few pages to the playbook. IMHO of course
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 29, 2024 15:07:53 GMT -5
Here's the transcript of his Instagram post. He's a very well spoken young gentleman... All these pussy ass niggas tryna play me. On God. Bitch ass niggas. I just gon get on this and be on no pussy shit. No clear no shit up. Cuz I don't really give a ****. I don't **** wit yall. Half yall niggas wanna do somethin. Then do something then. I ain't get on that. On God, but hey look. Yall readin all this cap ass shit. Ya feel me? Believe it. I don't give a ****. I ain't never been a nigga to go do all that. But yeah. Man that shit cap. I'm not hurt. None of that shit. Save that shit. Suck my dick too.
On God. Not hurt. None of that. *Laughs* Hip been hwah hwah en hwag it go from hip to ankle to dis to dat.I had to put that through Google translate: "There are several inconsiderate individuals who are giving me grief. Honestly. Very inconsiderate. I'd like to take this opportunity to clear matters up. Or not. This matter does not bother me at all. That is the truth. If these fellows would like to discuss this matter with me I'd welcome the chance. Honest. You have read my response. Do you understand? It is the truth. I am not concerned. My character has proven the validity of this statement. Yes. I am in perfectly good health. Please do not say otherwise. I am quite annoyed. Honest. I am in good health. Thank you for reading and please have a nice day." LOL this is the best combo of posts ever. I love that he added "suck my dick too" in there haha.
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Post by McCherry on Jan 29, 2024 16:06:54 GMT -5
But the problems on the interior of the OL would've still existed, and still do. True, and the problems on edge and tight end and QB and condition coach etc will always be there as well..but the most important aspect of the OL is now all pro and it’s far easier to find sure thing guards then tackles…2nd round gems. Dickerson of the Eagles ….monster from Alabama was rumored to be a Giants big target but…Eagles snagged him first. Right idea, bad execution of getting your guy. Not easy getting a Slater and Thomas though…that is a 10 meter head start to finish the OL. Needless to say, the wall still needs to be built. Alt should be a big deal in the survival of our coaching staff and GM if we are stuck with Jones. I am not for overpaying for a at best average tackle in free agency again…however you can find decent guards that fit your offensive scheme for reasonable deals. I still like the Neal to LG idea…and drafting Alt. That kid is a once tight end with great bend, pro technique and athleticism. Neal and Thomas would create lanes on the left side…the playcalling could actually work, and add a few pages to the playbook. IMHO of course I just don't like the concept of stacking the OL with top-10 picks, makes for an obvious problem in a few years. I think you pay one of the free agent guards. Both Hunt and the guy from NE can also play T. Then see what you have. I am not behind the move of Neal to G. i think it's way too early. I want to see what the new coach has to say, I would guess Briccillo is going to endorse Neal at RT. Just a guess. You need a backup plan though. Draft a Guard on day 2 or 3. Maybe someone who can swing to T. It's a shame we lost Tyre Phillips. I'm not finished with Ezeudu or even McKethan, who really never had a chance to catch up this season coming off the injury. We need other options though.
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Aris
Special Teams
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Post by Aris on Jan 29, 2024 16:17:57 GMT -5
True, and the problems on edge and tight end and QB and condition coach etc will always be there as well..but the most important aspect of the OL is now all pro and it’s far easier to find sure thing guards then tackles…2nd round gems. Dickerson of the Eagles ….monster from Alabama was rumored to be a Giants big target but…Eagles snagged him first. Right idea, bad execution of getting your guy. Not easy getting a Slater and Thomas though…that is a 10 meter head start to finish the OL. Needless to say, the wall still needs to be built. Alt should be a big deal in the survival of our coaching staff and GM if we are stuck with Jones. I am not for overpaying for a at best average tackle in free agency again…however you can find decent guards that fit your offensive scheme for reasonable deals. I still like the Neal to LG idea…and drafting Alt. That kid is a once tight end with great bend, pro technique and athleticism. Neal and Thomas would create lanes on the left side…the playcalling could actually work, and add a few pages to the playbook. IMHO of course I just don't like the concept of stacking the OL with top-10 picks, makes for an obvious problem in a few years. I think you pay one of the free agent guards. Both Hunt and the guy from NE can also play T. Then see what you have. I am not behind the move of Neal to G. i think it's way too early. I want to see what the new coach has to say, I would guess Briccillo is going to endorse Neal at RT. Just a guess. You need a backup plan though. Draft a Guard on day 2 or 3. Maybe someone who can swing to T. It's a shame we lost Tyre Phillips. I'm not finished with Ezeudu or even McKethan, who really never had a chance to catch up this season coming off the injury. We need other options though. OL coaches do far far more than teach technique, especially at the pro level….they get the entire OL to work as a unit against defensive schemes. Gets more complicated then “stop lunging” ….if you have talent on the OL playcalling expands and succeeds. Slater was not a top ten pick BTW…hopefully we find cheap gems, but statistically speaking, offensive tackle postionally have the highest success rate of any position taken in round 1…TEM can you verify this?
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 29, 2024 16:25:08 GMT -5
OL coaches do far far more than teach technique, especially at the pro level….they get the entire OL to work as a unit against defensive schemes. Gets more complicated then “stop lunging” ….if you have talent on the OL playcalling expands and succeeds. Slater was not a top ten pick BTW…hopefully we find cheap gems, but statistically speaking, offensive tackles have the highest success rate of taken in round 1…TEM can you verify this? I actually think RBs have the highest success rate of 1st round picks....but people don't like them. OTs are in the top 3 for sure.
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Post by Fletch842 on Jan 29, 2024 18:03:31 GMT -5
OL coaches do far far more than teach technique, especially at the pro level….they get the entire OL to work as a unit against defensive schemes. Gets more complicated then “stop lunging” ….if you have talent on the OL playcalling expands and succeeds. Slater was not a top ten pick BTW…hopefully we find cheap gems, but statistically speaking, offensive tackles have the highest success rate of taken in round 1…TEM can you verify this? I actually think RBs have the highest success rate of 1st round picks....but people don't like them. OTs are in the top 3 for sure. The NFL economics alone make RB's a poor choice in the 1st round for the most part. There are a few exceptions of course, but generally, not a good idea these days.
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Aris
Special Teams
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Post by Aris on Jan 29, 2024 18:04:53 GMT -5
OL coaches do far far more than teach technique, especially at the pro level….they get the entire OL to work as a unit against defensive schemes. Gets more complicated then “stop lunging” ….if you have talent on the OL playcalling expands and succeeds. Slater was not a top ten pick BTW…hopefully we find cheap gems, but statistically speaking, offensive tackles have the highest success rate of taken in round 1…TEM can you verify this? I actually think RBs have the highest success rate of 1st round picks....but people don't like them. OTs are in the top 3 for sure. Small sample size I would think, haha.... unless we are going back to the ancient days. I don't believe they are disliked...just valued properly by logistics in a way the game is now played....and how long they are of value to a team. They are just products of the blocking and blocking schemes to create some space. They score with the ball in hand, dance...and that is the last thing fans remember....who spikes the ball. Jersey sold and fantasy fans go happy. Coaches know as do GM's the reason the score happened was the play and blocking. Now, give me a running back who looks violent and likes contact...the play that the OL blocked for a 4 yard gain turns into 6 or 8. That's the YAC guy I want on my team. Isiah Pacheco is very well liked by me...and taken in the 7th round. Andy gives him 4 on a play, and he makes it 7 and hurts the defenders on his way.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 29, 2024 19:24:48 GMT -5
I actually think RBs have the highest success rate of 1st round picks....but people don't like them. OTs are in the top 3 for sure. The NFL economics alone make RB's a poor choice in the 1st round for the most part. There are a few exceptions of course, but generally, not a good idea these days. I agree with that from an economics POV. Taking Barkley so high made him the 7th highest paid RBs in the league lol. Meanwhile Mayfield at #1 became the 29th highest paid QB. Too lazy to look at other positions but its clear from a money POV it's not a wise move.
My point wasn't that though, it's that they have a very high success rate because it's seems to be a pretty easy position to predict at the highest level.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 29, 2024 19:27:10 GMT -5
I actually think RBs have the highest success rate of 1st round picks....but people don't like them. OTs are in the top 3 for sure. Small sample size I would think, haha.... unless we are going back to the ancient days. I don't believe they are disliked...just valued properly by logistics in a way the game is now played....and how long they are of value to a team. They are just products of the blocking and blocking schemes to create some space. They score with the ball in hand, dance...and that is the last thing fans remember....who spikes the ball. Jersey sold and fantasy fans go happy. Coaches know as do GM's the reason the score happened was the play and blocking. Now, give me a running back who looks violent and likes contact...the play that the OL blocked for a 4 yard gain turns into 6 or 8. That's the YAC guy I want on my team. Isiah Pacheco is very well liked by me...and taken in the 7th round. Andy gives him 4 on a play, and he makes it 7 and hurts the defenders on his way. Smallish sample size for sure. Still a high success rate.
You don't actually believe all RBs are the same and just products of the blocking. Their longevity is their down side, not there value in terms of production.
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Aris
Special Teams
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Post by Aris on Jan 30, 2024 7:20:29 GMT -5
Small sample size I would think, haha.... unless we are going back to the ancient days. I don't believe they are disliked...just valued properly by logistics in a way the game is now played....and how long they are of value to a team. They are just products of the blocking and blocking schemes to create some space. They score with the ball in hand, dance...and that is the last thing fans remember....who spikes the ball. Jersey sold and fantasy fans go happy. Coaches know as do GM's the reason the score happened was the play and blocking. Now, give me a running back who looks violent and likes contact...the play that the OL blocked for a 4 yard gain turns into 6 or 8. That's the YAC guy I want on my team. Isiah Pacheco is very well liked by me...and taken in the 7th round. Andy gives him 4 on a play, and he makes it 7 and hurts the defenders on his way. Smallish sample size for sure. Still a high success rate.
You don't actually believe all RBs are the same and just products of the blocking. Their longevity is their down side, not there value in terms of production.
Quick story…this year we had a kid who played on our team…yeah high school. He was and is a sophomore we jumped to V. He played running back and has the type of jump cut that will get him a scholarship. He’s long and lean, thus we checked his hands and route running basics…moved him to receiver and safety. He will be a 4 star, possibly 5 star as a recruit in 2 years. He put us in the playoffs by taking over games…never been part of a team that had that type of acceleration on a player, and his instincts are not of the high school world. Yeah, a sophomore that plays both sides of the ball and averages 4 touchdowns a game from both sides of the ball. We have a freak. Long story short…we did that because running backs are a dime a dozen. Sure the best get drafted for NFL traits, but there are too many. It stems with lazy coaching and old school thinking from pop to high school….give your best player the ball and let him outrun everybody else. Can he run….and throw? He becomes the team, running the ball from the QB position. Team wins and coaches are happy… it are they doing what is best for the star player? So yeah, I believe running backs take what is given them through play calling and the blocking, some faster, some more violent, some better jump cuts, some great hands. What type of running back is Barkley? Zone? Downhill? Is he a violent runner, or finesse? Do running backs have shortened careers? Do they spend time dinged up with ankles and sprains and major knee issues? Barkley is a type of runner, and like any other…that needs a hole. Is his vision good? Does he drop balls in critical situations? YAC leader? I get it Mike…you love running backs and I was a running back back in my day. I feel your love coming my way. My idol was OJ Simpson. It still does not change the fact running backs are not worth overall 2 picks…lol at having to even suggest that to anybody sane….and hardly any do 1st round. The league values coaching, blocking and QB play. Barkley at 2 was a massive mistake.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 30, 2024 18:35:46 GMT -5
Quick story… Barkley at 2 was a massive mistake. Seriously man? You made me read all that just to say you moved a kid in highschool so NFL RBs are a dime a dozen. Then that kid will get to college and they'll say...you're a linebacker now kid lol.
You don't believe all RBs are the same (not a question, it's a statement). No one believes you can put any other RB on the 49ers and he'll get 20+ TDs. There are levels, just like any position. Yes an good OL makes every RB, QB better. A good QB makes his OL and WRs better. A good RB makes an OL look better. Good WRs make a QB look better. It's a true team sport.
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Aris
Special Teams
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Post by Aris on Jan 30, 2024 19:37:55 GMT -5
Quick story… Barkley at 2 was a massive mistake. Seriously man? You made me read all that just to say you moved a kid in highschool so NFL RBs are a dime a dozen. Then that kid will get to college and they'll say...you're a linebacker now kid lol. You don't believe all RBs are the same (not a question, it's a statement). No one believes you can put any other RB on the 49ers and he'll get 20+ TDs. There are levels, just like any position. Yes an good OL makes every RB, QB better. A good QB makes his OL and WRs better. A good RB makes an OL look better. Good WRs make a QB look better. It's a true team sport.
Speed, acceleration, cuts, YAC...receiving, hands, route running, vision, downhill, east west...pass pro on blitzes...sure we have some of those traits in different backs. Many 2nd rounders with differences make it, and some rotate it, and the less traits the further they are picked. 3rd rounder might have hands of stone....4th rounder might be north and south and a banger...but all are utilized into a system to best use those traits, and a system that suggests Barkley at 2 was as dumb a pick I have ever seen the Giants make. 1st round running backs are sure things, and 2 overall picks wear green jackets after they get tagged a few years and recover from running back type injuries. I can create Barkley with 2 backs taken later in the rounds if we had an OL that was beast mode....Barkley as the main weapon is exactly what is wrong with this idiotic team from the time Gettleman drafted him. My 12 year old nephew could have made a better pick there. You can't win Lombardi trophies with a single running back as... the team. That all said...franchise him one more time. He's needed for our new zone blocking right tackle Joe Alt ...he's going to the house a lot this year. Or the trainers room with injuries. Either or....but do remember this my happy hour poster....Nate Solder was blocking when he had his best season as a rookie
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 30, 2024 19:46:01 GMT -5
That all said...franchise him one more time. Zero chance that's happening unless it's a tag and trade.
I'm good with signing Barkley, a LG, drafting Alt and Beebe. Have to fix the OL somehow.
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Aris
Special Teams
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Post by Aris on Jan 30, 2024 20:05:36 GMT -5
That all said...franchise him one more time. Zero chance that's happening unless it's a tag and trade.
I good with signing Barkley, a LG, drafting Alt and Beebe. Have to fix the OL somehow.
I'm not good with signing him to any long deal contract ...that would be silly IMHO. Neal at LG, Beebee or that kid from Duke...he's smooth and smart ...and played every position. Alt is a key...if we miss on a real QB. I really will not be too happy if we draft a WR with Jones, whom I am believing is starting next year until he too gets hurt again like Barkley.... behind this putrid o line. Drafting a WR is IMHO a sure pick to get the coach canned. An X receiver with 1 second to throw? Maybe if it was Josh Allen throwing missiles after he scrambled a bit...but not the noodle arm of Jones. And if we run Jones a few more times, and he looks the fool again with weird slides and going head first into linebackers...he is finished not only with us, but more than likely the NFL.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 30, 2024 20:18:16 GMT -5
I'm not good with signing him to any long deal contract ...that would be silly IMHO. Neal at LG, Beebee or that kid from Duke...he's smooth and smart ...and played every position. Alt is a key...if we miss on a real QB. I really will not be too happy if we draft a WR with Jones, whom I am believing is starting next year until he too gets hurt again like Barkley.... behind this putrid o line. Drafting a WR is IMHO a sure pick to get the coach canned. An X receiver with 1 second to throw? Maybe if it was Josh Allen throwing missiles after he scrambled a bit...but not the noodle arm of Jones. And if we run Jones a few more times, and he looks the fool again with weird slides and going head first into linebackers...he is finished not only with us, but more than likely the NFL. I'd give Barkley 3 years no problem. Especially if I'm Schoen. Give him three years, if it doesn't work Schoen will not be here to deal with it anyway lmao.
I think you're off on the WR concern though. That thought seems like you're ignoring free agency. If we go and sign Onwenu and (insert favorite FA guard here) then OL becomes less of a need. I agree we can't go WR in the first if we don't shore up the OL at all in free agency.
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Post by Fletch842 on Jan 31, 2024 6:01:55 GMT -5
I'm not good with signing him to any long deal contract ...that would be silly IMHO. Neal at LG, Beebee or that kid from Duke...he's smooth and smart ...and played every position. Alt is a key...if we miss on a real QB. I really will not be too happy if we draft a WR with Jones, whom I am believing is starting next year until he too gets hurt again like Barkley.... behind this putrid o line. Drafting a WR is IMHO a sure pick to get the coach canned. An X receiver with 1 second to throw? Maybe if it was Josh Allen throwing missiles after he scrambled a bit...but not the noodle arm of Jones. And if we run Jones a few more times, and he looks the fool again with weird slides and going head first into linebackers...he is finished not only with us, but more than likely the NFL. I'd give Barkley 3 years no problem. Especially if I'm Schoen. Give him three years, if it doesn't work Schoen will not be here to deal with it anyway lmao.
I think you're off on the WR concern though. That thought seems like you're ignoring free agency. If we go and sign Onwenu and (insert favorite FA guard here) then OL becomes less of a need. I agree we can't go WR in the first if we don't shore up the OL at all in free agency.
be interesting to see if our new OL coach can team them how to recognize basic stunts, something that has befuddled our line for more then a few years. now.
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