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Post by ThatGuyRich on Feb 20, 2019 15:17:37 GMT -5
Oh I agree 100% Rosey, but the question asked specifically about just about those 2 seasons. For the next 5-6 years the giant defense carried us as a legit SB contender each year. The LBers group was as good as any whoever played imo. Not only the starters LT, Harry, Banks, Peppers but Reasons, Hunt, Headon. I always thought Gary Reasons and Carl Banks never got the credit that was due them.
Agreed, however I do believe Banks got the recognition at the time. In 86 John Madden often commented on Carl's play stating he's not sure if he's ever seen anyone play better at that position. Carl received All-Pro and Pro Bowl honors in 87 which was probably for his efforts in 86.
Reasons was a guy I thought was under appreciated. I thought he consistently made the plays that came his way, while not being flashy - except of course for his great effort at the goal line in Denver.
Yea I agree but I felt Banks should have been to the pro bowl a number of times not only once. But the rest of the league would have screamed that 3 Giant LBers were on the team. Even though they deserved to be.
And Reasons was the captain of our ST's. Remember the fake punt to Reasons up the middle for the first down. I believe it was the straw that broke the 49ers back. Parcells was so happy he was smiling ear to ear.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Feb 20, 2019 15:23:09 GMT -5
The Bears outscored their opponents in the two NFC playoff games 45-0. Then 46-10 in the SB. 91-10. The Giants outscored their opponents in the two NFC playoff games 66-3. Then 39-19 in the SB. 105-22
Geez those were two dominant teams. Bears were 15-1. Giants were 14-2.
I truly believe that the 86 Giants would have beaten the 85 Bears on a neutral field but that's me. Of course I'm a Giants fan.
In other words.....Who knows who was better. They were both all time great championship teams.
BTW...Those numbers were strictly from memory. Not sure if they are exactly correct.
In the '85 playoff at Chicago the weather was a big factor... especially the whiffed punt attempt by Landetta where the wind literally blew the drop away from his foot. They recovered and got a cheapy TD. The other was Rob Carpenter fumbling near mid field while he was running downfield, untouched, and no one near him. That fumble, and two by Sims were the difference. I always felt that we could have won that game on a neutral field with decent weather. Yet, we only got 32 yards rushing that game and they got 147... so, their great D was great that game, too. Our D was ranked 2nd that year, to their No. 1. Our offense was 2nd to theirs being 13. In '86 their D was still No. 1 and ours was 5th. Their O was 8th in '86, to ours 6th that year. Difficult to say, Our LB corp was so great, it's hard to swallow that their D was better... but, it was slightly better. Our Offense was definitely better, as was our special teams. Your absolutely right. Their 3 LBers were great too. I also felt that our offense was significantly better than theirs. And Simms better than McMahon.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 15:46:48 GMT -5
It's really a good question. I still consider the 85 Bears D to be the best ever, followed by the 2000 Ravens, but our '86 offense was significantly better than the '85 Bears. Both teams crushed it. I thinks that the Ravens 2000 defense is a distant third to the 85 Bears and 86 Giants. I will never give the Ravens all the credit people do. yeah, they were really good, but Kerry Collins was a bag of garbage in that Super Bowl.
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Post by Zimonami on Feb 20, 2019 17:52:59 GMT -5
I thinks that the Ravens 2000 defense is a distant third to the 85 Bears and 86 Giants. I will never give the Ravens all the credit people do. yeah, they were really good, but Kerry Collins was a bag of garbage in that Super Bowl. You need go no further than to recall that Fassell announced the following preseason that Kerry would no longer have the freedom to call audibles. Kerry couldn't read a defense if his life depended on it and in the SB he often audibled to plays that were worse than the plays that were called in to him. He was totally confused by the Raven's D formations in that game and didn't have a clue where the blitz was coming from. The subsequent confusion and panic after the snap was obvious with 4 horrible INT's. Kerry had an arm, but zero ability to read a D.
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Post by Roswell on Feb 20, 2019 18:41:54 GMT -5
I thought the 85 Bears were the best defensive team I ever saw. And it’s for that reason that I say they were better than the 86 Giants.
I just felt they had the Giants number.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Feb 20, 2019 19:47:28 GMT -5
I thinks that the Ravens 2000 defense is a distant third to the 85 Bears and 86 Giants. I will never give the Ravens all the credit people do. yeah, they were really good, but Kerry Collins was a bag of garbage in that Super Bowl. Wait a minute g, The Ravens defense had 4 shutouts that season. Their offense stunk their kicker Matt Stover won so many games for them. The offense couldn't score only Jamal Lewis who had a monster year was any good. The offense went 5 straight games without scoring a TD and the Ravens won 3 of them. They weren't allowed to throw the ball until they got over their 40 yd line. Run Lewis 3 times if he gets a first down repeat the process. if not punt, the Raven defense will eventually turn the field and get Matt Stover into FG range. Stover didn't have range but was very accurate from inside 40 yards.
Their defense was great. Everyone had their best year as a pro at the same time. It just lined up perfectly.
The Giants weren't even near the best team they beat that year. Oakland and Tennessee were powerhouses and the Ravens beat both those teams on the road. Plus they paralyzed a good Denver team at home.
But we all have different view points and yes we are a little biased cause we loved that 86 Giant team. And why not ? I'll never forget them. The 86 Giants were so tough and blue collar on both sides of the ball. Heck I think the offense was tougher than the defense. Bavaro, Cauthon, Morris, The O line Elliot, Roberts, Oates, Moore, and I believe Rosenthal. God they were good.
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Post by Morehead State on Feb 20, 2019 20:13:56 GMT -5
I thought the 85 Bears were the best defensive team I ever saw. And it’s for that reason that I say they were better than the 86 Giants. I just felt they had the Giants number. The Bears defense's goal was to outscore the opposing offense.....and they sometimes did. Wilbur Marshall was phenomenal that season. Buddy just got the most out of those guys.
The fact that 'The 85 Bears" is actually a term...to imply the greatest team ever....... is noteworthy.
"Well they aren't the '85 Bears". How often have we heard that?
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Post by Roswell on Feb 20, 2019 20:45:07 GMT -5
I thought the 85 Bears were the best defensive team I ever saw. And it’s for that reason that I say they were better than the 86 Giants. I just felt they had the Giants number. The Bears defense's goal was to outscore the opposing offense.....and they sometimes did. Wilbur Marshall was phenomenal that season. Buddy just got the most out of those guys.
The fact that 'The 85 Bears" is actually a term...to imply the greatest team ever....... is noteworthy.
"Well they aren't the '85 Bears". How often have we heard that?
Exactly. When I was watching that playoff game vs the Bears in 85 I felt like the Giants weren’t scoring even if the game went on for two more quarters. And I’m not ashamed to admit that I was ok with the Redskins knocking off the Bears in 86. That Bear team had the Giants number. If I’m not mistaken, 87 season opener was the Bears vs Giants and the Bears won going away. I know that’s a different equation but had no faith in the Giant O vs the Bear D. In those days the Bears beat the Giants, the Giants beat the Redskins and the Redskins beat the Bears. Sometimes it’s just about matchups.
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Post by Morehead State on Feb 20, 2019 20:50:11 GMT -5
The Bears defense's goal was to outscore the opposing offense.....and they sometimes did. Wilbur Marshall was phenomenal that season. Buddy just got the most out of those guys.
The fact that 'The 85 Bears" is actually a term...to imply the greatest team ever....... is noteworthy.
"Well they aren't the '85 Bears". How often have we heard that?
Exactly. When I was watching that playoff game vs the Bears in 85 I felt like the Giants weren’t scoring even if the game went on for two more quarters. And I’m not ashamed to admit that I was ok with the Redskins knocking off the Bears in 86. That Bear team had the Giants number. If I’m not mistaken, 87 season opener was the Bears vs Giants and the Bears won going away. I know that’s a different equation but had no faith in the Giant O vs the Bear D. In those days the Bears beat the Giants, the Giants beat the Redskins and the Redskins beat the Bears. Sometimes it’s just about matchups. I don't know if we were better than the 85 Bears.....I DO know we were better than the 86 Bears. If they had come to Giants stadium they would have suffered the same fate as the Redskins.
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Post by Roswell on Feb 20, 2019 21:44:44 GMT -5
Exactly. When I was watching that playoff game vs the Bears in 85 I felt like the Giants weren’t scoring even if the game went on for two more quarters. And I’m not ashamed to admit that I was ok with the Redskins knocking off the Bears in 86. That Bear team had the Giants number. If I’m not mistaken, 87 season opener was the Bears vs Giants and the Bears won going away. I know that’s a different equation but had no faith in the Giant O vs the Bear D. In those days the Bears beat the Giants, the Giants beat the Redskins and the Redskins beat the Bears. Sometimes it’s just about matchups. I don't know if we were better than the 85 Bears.....I DO know we were better than the 86 Bears. If they had come to Giants stadium they would have suffered the same fate as the Redskins. Better team, yes, but I was happy to see the Redskins. Up to that point, the Giants were still a team that hadn’t won anything yet. And hadn’t had any success vs the Bears. After having 86 in the bank I was more confident in them. In 90, in SF, I thought they had what it took to spoil the threepeat. But that was only because they had won a SB before with a bunch of the same players. Also felt they would beat the Bills who had never been to the SB.
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soflo
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Post by soflo on Feb 21, 2019 10:13:24 GMT -5
Who was better the 1986 Giants or the 85 Bears and why ? The more relevant question is: 86 Bears or 86 Giants. And the honest answer to that is: The 86 Giants beat the 86 Bears in the NFCCG at Giants stadium if the Bears don't lose to the Redskins the week before. Bears fans would never admit this though. They're still bitter about 86. Hell, they're still bitter about that team only winning 1 super bowl. I'd take the 85 Bears over the 86 Giants though. Although I think a lot of their success was due to that 46 scheme that nobody could prepare for.
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soflo
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Post by soflo on Feb 21, 2019 10:18:06 GMT -5
I don't know if we were better than the 85 Bears.....I DO know we were better than the 86 Bears. If they had come to Giants stadium they would have suffered the same fate as the Redskins. Better team, yes, but I was happy to see the Redskins. Up to that point, the Giants were still a team that hadn’t won anything yet. And hadn’t had any success vs the Bears. After having 86 in the bank I was more confident in them. In 90, in SF, I thought they had what it took to spoil the threepeat. But that was only because they had won a SB before with a bunch of the same players. Also felt they would beat the Bills who had never been to the SB. Up to that point the Giants had no success against the Bears because they only played the Bears 1 time...in the year nobody had success on them. The 1987 opener put the Giants in a very unfair spot. The super bowl champs opening on the road, not in mid-season form, in the midst of a distracting strike rumors, and they had lost their pro bowl tackle Karl Nelson to cancer and had to start rookie William Roberts against the likes of Richard Dent. Giants never really had a chance to play them at home in the 80s.
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gumby
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Post by gumby on Feb 21, 2019 10:21:46 GMT -5
It's really a good question. I still consider the 85 Bears D to be the best ever, followed by the 2000 Ravens, but our '86 offense was significantly better than the '85 Bears. Both teams crushed it. I thinks that the Ravens 2000 defense is a distant third to the 85 Bears and 86 Giants. I'd say they were the best. You can't emphasize the salary cap enough.
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Post by Roswell on Feb 21, 2019 11:04:19 GMT -5
Better team, yes, but I was happy to see the Redskins. Up to that point, the Giants were still a team that hadn’t won anything yet. And hadn’t had any success vs the Bears. After having 86 in the bank I was more confident in them. In 90, in SF, I thought they had what it took to spoil the threepeat. But that was only because they had won a SB before with a bunch of the same players. Also felt they would beat the Bills who had never been to the SB. Up to that point the Giants had no success against the Bears because they only played the Bears 1 time...in the year nobody had success on them. The 1987 opener put the Giants in a very unfair spot. The super bowl champs opening on the road, not in mid-season form, in the midst of a distracting strike rumors, and they had lost their pro bowl tackle Karl Nelson to cancer and had to start rookie William Roberts against the likes of Richard Dent. Giants never really had a chance to play them at home in the 80s. Fair point about Giants always being on the road vs Bears though the pressure the Bears brought in those games probably had very little to do with crowd noise. The Giants had no answer for the scheme the Bears were running. Also William Roberts was starting his fourth season when he went up against Dent in 87.
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Post by solomonphoenix on Feb 21, 2019 19:53:29 GMT -5
To me the 85 Bears and 86 Giant were almost dead even except for one position ,running back , they had Walter Payton we had Joe Morris Giants had a better QB and TE
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soflo
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Post by soflo on Feb 24, 2019 0:20:46 GMT -5
Up to that point the Giants had no success against the Bears because they only played the Bears 1 time...in the year nobody had success on them. The 1987 opener put the Giants in a very unfair spot. The super bowl champs opening on the road, not in mid-season form, in the midst of a distracting strike rumors, and they had lost their pro bowl tackle Karl Nelson to cancer and had to start rookie William Roberts against the likes of Richard Dent. Giants never really had a chance to play them at home in the 80s. Fair point about Giants always being on the road vs Bears though the pressure the Bears brought in those games probably had very little to do with crowd noise. The Giants had no answer for the scheme the Bears were running. Also William Roberts was starting his fourth season when he went up against Dent in 87. Either way, Karl Nelson wasn't there to start and he was a pro bowler and William Roberts ended up moving to guard, his more natural spot. That was just a very bad spot for the Giants to be scheduled against the Bears, as season openers typically aren't good barometers for judging matchups. It's a shame they didn't play more, but the Bears happen to get both of those games at home, and at good times for them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 13:27:13 GMT -5
I will never give the Ravens all the credit people do. yeah, they were really good, but Kerry Collins was a bag of garbage in that Super Bowl. Wait a minute g, The Ravens defense had 4 shutouts that season. Their offense stunk their kicker Matt Stover won so many games for them. The offense couldn't score only Jamal Lewis who had a monster year was any good. The offense went 5 straight games without scoring a TD and the Ravens won 3 of them. They weren't allowed to throw the ball until they got over their 40 yd line. Run Lewis 3 times if he gets a first down repeat the process. if not punt, the Raven defense will eventually turn the field and get Matt Stover into FG range. Stover didn't have range but was very accurate from inside 40 yards.
Their defense was great. Everyone had their best year as a pro at the same time. It just lined up perfectly.
The Giants weren't even near the best team they beat that year. Oakland and Tennessee were powerhouses and the Ravens beat both those teams on the road. Plus they paralyzed a good Denver team at home.
But we all have different view points and yes we are a little biased cause we loved that 86 Giant team. And why not ? I'll never forget them. The 86 Giants were so tough and blue collar on both sides of the ball. Heck I think the offense was tougher than the defense. Bavaro, Cauthon, Morris, The O line Elliot, Roberts, Oates, Moore, and I believe Rosenthal. God they were good.
I get ya, Rich...but I just never had any love for Kerry for all of his downside, Fassel either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 13:29:32 GMT -5
I will never give the Ravens all the credit people do. yeah, they were really good, but Kerry Collins was a bag of garbage in that Super Bowl. You need go no further than to recall that Fassell announced the following preseason that Kerry would no longer have the freedom to call audibles. Kerry couldn't read a defense if his life depended on it and in the SB he often audibled to plays that were worse than the plays that were called in to him. He was totally confused by the Raven's D formations in that game and didn't have a clue where the blitz was coming from. The subsequent confusion and panic after the snap was obvious with 4 horrible INT's. Kerry had an arm, but zero ability to read a D. Exactly, what a waste of time he was.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Mar 6, 2019 20:45:08 GMT -5
Wait a minute g, The Ravens defense had 4 shutouts that season. Their offense stunk their kicker Matt Stover won so many games for them. The offense couldn't score only Jamal Lewis who had a monster year was any good. The offense went 5 straight games without scoring a TD and the Ravens won 3 of them. They weren't allowed to throw the ball until they got over their 40 yd line. Run Lewis 3 times if he gets a first down repeat the process. if not punt, the Raven defense will eventually turn the field and get Matt Stover into FG range. Stover didn't have range but was very accurate from inside 40 yards.
Their defense was great. Everyone had their best year as a pro at the same time. It just lined up perfectly.
The Giants weren't even near the best team they beat that year. Oakland and Tennessee were powerhouses and the Ravens beat both those teams on the road. Plus they paralyzed a good Denver team at home.
But we all have different view points and yes we are a little biased cause we loved that 86 Giant team. And why not ? I'll never forget them. The 86 Giants were so tough and blue collar on both sides of the ball. Heck I think the offense was tougher than the defense. Bavaro, Cauthon, Morris, The O line Elliot, Roberts, Oates, Moore, and I believe Rosenthal. God they were good.
I get ya, Rich...but I just never had any love for Kerry for all of his downside, Fassel either. Oh I agree, I didn't like either of them neither. I don't forgive Fassel for blowing that playoff game vs S.F. and Jeff Garcia. Talk about a choke job don't know what this man was thinking. Don't think much of him as a person neither. Thought Fassel was always overrated.
Kerry just wasn't good enough but he always gave you a 100% I thought. You can only be as good as your talent allows.
Now to be fair the week before in the NFC Championship Game he probably had his best day of his career vs the Vikes. We weren't nearly as good a team as them but we knocked the snot out of them at the start and put them in such a whole they never knew what hit them. And he did have some better than good seasons in Carolina. It was the best we could do at the time.
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redeyejedi
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Post by redeyejedi on Mar 7, 2019 6:53:19 GMT -5
Simulate it on What If Sports
Bears 16 - Giants 0 at Raymond James Stadium Tampa 75 Degrees
1st Quarter CHI 8:53 FG Kevin Butler 40 yds. 0-3 2nd Quarter CHI 0:03 FG Kevin Butler 46 yds. 0-6 3rd Quarter CHI 7:24 TD Walter Payton 41 yd. run (Butler kick) 0-13 4th Quarter CHI 0:59 FG Kevin Butler 34 yds. 0-16
Walter Payton Rushes for 147 yards on 22 Carries.
Otis Wilson Sacks Simms 4 Times
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 12:13:47 GMT -5
I get ya, Rich...but I just never had any love for Kerry for all of his downside, Fassel either. Oh I agree, I didn't like either of them neither. I don't forgive Fassel for blowing that playoff game vs S.F. and Jeff Garcia. Talk about a choke job don't know what this man was thinking. Don't think much of him as a person neither. Thought Fassel was always overrated.
Kerry just wasn't good enough but he always gave you a 100% I thought. You can only be as good as your talent allows.
Now to be fair the week before in the NFC Championship Game he probably had his best day of his career vs the Vikes. We weren't nearly as good a team as them but we knocked the snot out of them at the start and put them in such a whole they never knew what hit them. And he did have some better than good seasons in Carolina. It was the best we could do at the time.
Not to get off topic here, but I used to tell my father that and he'd come back with... then you need to try harder, son!!!
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Mar 8, 2019 14:21:57 GMT -5
Oh I agree, I didn't like either of them neither. I don't forgive Fassel for blowing that playoff game vs S.F. and Jeff Garcia. Talk about a choke job don't know what this man was thinking. Don't think much of him as a person neither. Thought Fassel was always overrated.
Kerry just wasn't good enough but he always gave you a 100% I thought. You can only be as good as your talent allows.
Now to be fair the week before in the NFC Championship Game he probably had his best day of his career vs the Vikes. We weren't nearly as good a team as them but we knocked the snot out of them at the start and put them in such a whole they never knew what hit them. And he did have some better than good seasons in Carolina. It was the best we could do at the time.
Not to get off topic here, but I used to tell my father that and he'd come back with... then you need to try harder, son!!! Yep my father had the same mind set as well. Never accepted that you couldn't be the best if it was a reality or not. You gotta love it. Don't know if your dad was as old as mine but in my case those old WW2 guys were tough and thank God they were.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2019 8:59:16 GMT -5
Not to get off topic here, but I used to tell my father that and he'd come back with... then you need to try harder, son!!! Yep my father had the same mind set as well. Never accepted that you couldn't be the best if it was a reality or not. You gotta love it. Don't know if your dad was as old as mine but in my case those old WW2 guys were tough and thank God they were. Father was an Air force man in the same war. Strict about everything, it was his way or the Highway. I had to choose the Highway at a very young age because of it too, haha.
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Post by Parademon1 on Apr 8, 2019 14:02:34 GMT -5
With all the pansy BS can't hit too hard , too high, too low, too early, etc, rules in place these days, we will never again see a defense the likes of the 85' Bears, 86' Giants, 00' Ravens, 02' Bucs. League wants 55-50 games, not 14-10. 02' Bucs D was the last D to hold opponents to under 200pts in a season.
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Post by Parademon1 on Apr 9, 2019 9:17:18 GMT -5
With all the pansy BS can't hit too hard , too high, too low, too early, etc, rules in place these days, we will never again see a defense the likes of the 85' Bears, 86' Giants, 00' Ravens, 02' Bucs. League wants 55-50 games, not 14-10. 02' Bucs D was the last D to hold opponents to under 200pts in a season. IMHO , a direct result from Madden and Fantasy Football to keep fans involve. Sad that in the end, it's all about the Benjamins.
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