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Post by GameTime on Aug 21, 2019 7:46:45 GMT -5
I would say that about the entire team , see I would factor in the defense or lack of it game in and game out.Last year being a very good example. See...when I consider the state of the team, it makes me want to see Jones out there sooner rather than later. If they are a work in progress, then Jones represents a key piece of the future; get him in and growing right now. for better or worse the Giants will continue to right by Eli and thats just the way they roll. It is what it is. They can explain it however they want and thats fine. There are valid arguments for each side of the story. If Eli was not on the team Jones would be starting. There would be no "vet" to buffer him, Tanney wouldn't be starting etc.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 21, 2019 8:32:29 GMT -5
Being 20 games under .500 over the past 6 years may not be the worst thing....but it's in the top 10.
But I'm on board. Losing doesn't matter. Eli's feelings are what counts.
Now, call me crazy, but... If it were possible to factor Eli out of the equation, it looks like the team was not happy with the thought of any of the QB's available to them in the past few years, with the exception of an attempt to trade up for Mahomes. Could they have been wrong? Absolutely. They certainly took flyers at QB's...Lauletta and future HOFer Davis Webb are examples. But it also looks like they found a QB that they love and took him this year...conventional wisdom says the overpaid for him. Again...they could be wrong, but they certainly committed to him, and in doing so, removed the opportunity to get Eli that one weapon he needed. And they put into place an inescapable pressure to see that new QB, short of a playoff run lead by Eli. Now this is the part where I am probably suppose to make some comment about you hating Eli, except I don't believe that's true. You hate the losing. I would suggest that Mara/DG do as well; they just took what they thought was the measured path to becoming a winning team again that differs from your path. So where does that leave us: You think that no matter what, Jones doesn't play this year. I think Eli is being given a chance to win this year, but he is also being paid to mentor Jones in the Giants way. Eli won't finish the year as the starter, and the future will begin. One thing the last 6 seasons have proven....is that Eli cannot lift this team up. If anyone disagrees please show how he's overcome other shortcomings on this team and led us to wins.
I have no idea if Daniel Jones can, but I know Eli can't. Which seems the more logical decision based on that?
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Post by Delicreep on Aug 21, 2019 8:46:26 GMT -5
Now, call me crazy, but... If it were possible to factor Eli out of the equation, it looks like the team was not happy with the thought of any of the QB's available to them in the past few years, with the exception of an attempt to trade up for Mahomes. Could they have been wrong? Absolutely. They certainly took flyers at QB's...Lauletta and future HOFer Davis Webb are examples. But it also looks like they found a QB that they love and took him this year...conventional wisdom says the overpaid for him. Again...they could be wrong, but they certainly committed to him, and in doing so, removed the opportunity to get Eli that one weapon he needed. And they put into place an inescapable pressure to see that new QB, short of a playoff run lead by Eli. Now this is the part where I am probably suppose to make some comment about you hating Eli, except I don't believe that's true. You hate the losing. I would suggest that Mara/DG do as well; they just took what they thought was the measured path to becoming a winning team again that differs from your path. So where does that leave us: You think that no matter what, Jones doesn't play this year. I think Eli is being given a chance to win this year, but he is also being paid to mentor Jones in the Giants way. Eli won't finish the year as the starter, and the future will begin. One thing the last 6 seasons have proven....is that Eli cannot lift this team up. If anyone disagrees please show how he's overcome other shortcomings on this team and led us to wins.
I have no idea if Daniel Jones can, but I know Eli can't. Which seems the more logical decision based on that?
What I am saying is that the Giants didn't rush to take a QB, they waited to take the QB. How the proceed with the QB is on the table now...the FO seems to think a slow start is the best course of action. I disagree with it, but let's not pretend it's some unheard of plan. It's a conservative approach by a conservative team.
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 21, 2019 9:26:23 GMT -5
Now, call me crazy, but... If it were possible to factor Eli out of the equation, it looks like the team was not happy with the thought of any of the QB's available to them in the past few years, with the exception of an attempt to trade up for Mahomes. Could they have been wrong? Absolutely. They certainly took flyers at QB's...Lauletta and future HOFer Davis Webb are examples. But it also looks like they found a QB that they love and took him this year...conventional wisdom says the overpaid for him. Again...they could be wrong, but they certainly committed to him, and in doing so, removed the opportunity to get Eli that one weapon he needed. And they put into place an inescapable pressure to see that new QB, short of a playoff run lead by Eli. Now this is the part where I am probably suppose to make some comment about you hating Eli, except I don't believe that's true. You hate the losing. I would suggest that Mara/DG do as well; they just took what they thought was the measured path to becoming a winning team again that differs from your path. So where does that leave us: You think that no matter what, Jones doesn't play this year. I think Eli is being given a chance to win this year, but he is also being paid to mentor Jones in the Giants way. Eli won't finish the year as the starter, and the future will begin. One thing the last 6 seasons have proven....is that Eli cannot lift this team up. If anyone disagrees please show how he's overcome other shortcomings on this team and led us to wins.
I have no idea if Daniel Jones can, but I know Eli can't. Which seems the more logical decision based on that?
I think Gettleman’s plan is to build a team like the other successful teams in the league that don’t require the QB to try to carry it.
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Post by Delicreep on Aug 21, 2019 10:11:11 GMT -5
I think Gettleman’s plan is to build a team like the other successful teams in the league that don’t require the QB to try to carry it. .....................and as has been pointed out before, one man can't carry an NFL team in this day and age. I think Morehead has a point as well...no one player can carry a team, but the QB in particular cannot be a hindrance to the teams success.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 21, 2019 10:17:08 GMT -5
One thing the last 6 seasons have proven....is that Eli cannot lift this team up. If anyone disagrees please show how he's overcome other shortcomings on this team and led us to wins.
I have no idea if Daniel Jones can, but I know Eli can't. Which seems the more logical decision based on that?
I think Gettleman’s plan is to build a team like the other successful teams in the league that don’t require the QB to try to carry it. I'm not talking about a QB "carrying" the team. I'm talking about a QB who can overcome other shortcomings to give us more wins.
Eli melts with the team. he doesn't lead us. The only thing he's led us to is 39-59 over the last 6 years.
And I'm tired of the "it's not Eli's fault" song. That's not what you want to hear with a supposed franchise QB. That's weak. Why he can't win is getting old. The old Eli is gone. What's left now is a shell of a QB who can't lead us to wins anymore.
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 21, 2019 10:36:26 GMT -5
.....................and as has been pointed out before, one man can't carry an NFL team in this day and age. I think Morehead has a point as well...no one player can carry a team, but the QB in particular cannot be a hindrance to the teams success. As much as I hate it, he does. And for me it’s really a function of proportion. The QB is absolutely the most important position on the team/field, I’m just not a buyer of the media marketing that it’s a hugely disproportionate percentage. I just do not see any actual evidence that supports that tale. That's not to say there aren’t exceptions, but in this narrative it’s treated as the rule as opposed to the exception and it’s a huge percentage. Percentage and proportion is to me where all this shit gets abused. And ironically, Manning may be one of the best exception examples. And how long ago was that? I’m naturally suspicious whenever the media markets a new narrative. I’m doubly suspicious when the majority swallows it wholesale without much skepticism and then if there’s little to no evidence supporting it, other than exceptions that prove rules, I am generally in the show me camp. In this case, that always ends with a really, really long story long on qualitative themes and feelings and short on hard facts. There’s nothing wrong with fan opinions, they’re just not industry facts. All that said, today I’d say Manning’s ptsd is making him a hinderance which should trump the conservative approach the Giants are taking, but that’s just not the Giants way. Those years are squandered and gone and it’s nearly always impossible to recapture magic....that only works in movies. But that’s the plan anyway.
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 21, 2019 10:41:26 GMT -5
I think Gettleman’s plan is to build a team like the other successful teams in the league that don’t require the QB to try to carry it. I'm not talking about a QB "carrying" the team. I'm talking about a QB who can overcome other shortcomings to give us more wins.
Eli melts with the team. he doesn't lead us. The only thing he's led us to is 39-59 over the last 6 years.
And I'm tired of the "it's not Eli's fault" song. That's not what you want to hear with a supposed franchise QB. That's weak. Why he can't win is getting old. The old Eli is gone. What's left now is a shell of a QB who can't lead us to wins anymore.
Well, I’m not gonna delete the post I just completed, just because it’s now redundant. On this I’ll simply say: that’s fair, he can’t. Therefore there’s really no reason - other than the Giants attempting to create some storybook ending - to not move on now.
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Post by Delicreep on Aug 21, 2019 11:04:05 GMT -5
I think Morehead has a point as well...no one player can carry a team, but the QB in particular cannot be a hindrance to the teams success. As much as I hate it, he does. And for me it’s really a function of proportion. The QB is absolutely the most important position on the team/field, I’m just not a buyer of the media marketing that it’s a hugely disproportionate percentage. I just do not see any actual evidence that supports that tale. That's not to say there aren’t exceptions, but in this narrative it’s treated as the rule as opposed to the exception and it’s a huge percentage. Percentage and proportion is to me where all this shit gets abused. And ironically, Manning may be one the best exception examples. And how long ago was that? I’m naturally suspicious whenever the media markets a new narrative. I’m doubly suspicious when the majority swallows it wholesale without much skepticism and then if there’s little to no evidence supporting it, other than exceptions that prove rules, I am generally in the show me camp. In this case, that always ends with a really, really long story long on qualitative themes and feelings and short on hard facts. There’s nothing wrong with fan opinions, they’re just not industry facts. All that said, today I’d say Manning’s ptsd is making him a hinderance which should trump the conservative approach the Giants are taking, but that’s just not the Giants way. Those years are squandered and gone and it’s nearly always impossible to recapture magic....that only works in movies. But that’s the plan anyway. No one ever wants to say Morehead is right.
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Post by Delicreep on Aug 21, 2019 11:04:58 GMT -5
As much as I hate it, he does. And for me it’s really a function of proportion. The QB is absolutely the most important position on the team/field, I’m just not a buyer of the media marketing that it’s a hugely disproportionate percentage. I just do not see any actual evidence that supports that tale. That's not to say there aren’t exceptions, but in this narrative it’s treated as the rule as opposed to the exception and it’s a huge percentage. Percentage and proportion is to me where all this shit gets abused. And ironically, Manning may be one the best exception examples. And how long ago was that? I’m naturally suspicious whenever the media markets a new narrative. I’m doubly suspicious when the majority swallows it wholesale without much skepticism and then if there’s little to no evidence supporting it, other than exceptions that prove rules, I am generally in the show me camp. In this case, that always ends with a really, really long story long on qualitative themes and feelings and short on hard facts. There’s nothing wrong with fan opinions, they’re just not industry facts. All that said, today I’d say Manning’s ptsd is making him a hinderance which should trump the conservative approach the Giants are taking, but that’s just not the Giants way. Those years are squandered and gone and it’s nearly always impossible to recapture magic....that only works in movies. But that’s the plan anyway. If it's one player , I agree it's a hindrance. The point is it's not one player it was the whole team ,Offense and Defense . I'm saying Eli left too many plays on the field all on his own.
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 21, 2019 11:06:19 GMT -5
As much as I hate it, he does. And for me it’s really a function of proportion. The QB is absolutely the most important position on the team/field, I’m just not a buyer of the media marketing that it’s a hugely disproportionate percentage. I just do not see any actual evidence that supports that tale. That's not to say there aren’t exceptions, but in this narrative it’s treated as the rule as opposed to the exception and it’s a huge percentage. Percentage and proportion is to me where all this shit gets abused. And ironically, Manning may be one the best exception examples. And how long ago was that? I’m naturally suspicious whenever the media markets a new narrative. I’m doubly suspicious when the majority swallows it wholesale without much skepticism and then if there’s little to no evidence supporting it, other than exceptions that prove rules, I am generally in the show me camp. In this case, that always ends with a really, really long story long on qualitative themes and feelings and short on hard facts. There’s nothing wrong with fan opinions, they’re just not industry facts. All that said, today I’d say Manning’s ptsd is making him a hinderance which should trump the conservative approach the Giants are taking, but that’s just not the Giants way. Those years are squandered and gone and it’s nearly always impossible to recapture magic....that only works in movies. But that’s the plan anyway. No one ever wants to say Morehead is right. It’s like a physical pain.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 21, 2019 11:08:17 GMT -5
I'm not talking about a QB "carrying" the team. I'm talking about a QB who can overcome other shortcomings to give us more wins.
Eli melts with the team. he doesn't lead us. The only thing he's led us to is 39-59 over the last 6 years.
And I'm tired of the "it's not Eli's fault" song. That's not what you want to hear with a supposed franchise QB. That's weak. Why he can't win is getting old. The old Eli is gone. What's left now is a shell of a QB who can't lead us to wins anymore.
LOL, "SHORTCOMINGS"??? You call the worst O line in the NFL shortcomings??? Seattle had the worst Oline. They had the worst running game except for the QB. Many teams have a worse O line than ours. But our guy puts a spotlight on the O line because he can't deal with a pass rush.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 21, 2019 11:11:29 GMT -5
As much as I hate it, he does. And for me it’s really a function of proportion. The QB is absolutely the most important position on the team/field, I’m just not a buyer of the media marketing that it’s a hugely disproportionate percentage. I just do not see any actual evidence that supports that tale. That's not to say there aren’t exceptions, but in this narrative it’s treated as the rule as opposed to the exception and it’s a huge percentage. Percentage and proportion is to me where all this shit gets abused. And ironically, Manning may be one the best exception examples. And how long ago was that? I’m naturally suspicious whenever the media markets a new narrative. I’m doubly suspicious when the majority swallows it wholesale without much skepticism and then if there’s little to no evidence supporting it, other than exceptions that prove rules, I am generally in the show me camp. In this case, that always ends with a really, really long story long on qualitative themes and feelings and short on hard facts. There’s nothing wrong with fan opinions, they’re just not industry facts. All that said, today I’d say Manning’s ptsd is making him a hinderance which should trump the conservative approach the Giants are taking, but that’s just not the Giants way. Those years are squandered and gone and it’s nearly always impossible to recapture magic....that only works in movies. But that’s the plan anyway. No one ever wants to say Morehead is right. Trust me...I wish I was wrong.
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Post by McCherry on Aug 21, 2019 11:12:03 GMT -5
Eli's play last year was good enough to get the team an 8-8 record if he had the players around him... He didn't.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 21, 2019 11:15:49 GMT -5
Eli's play last year was good enough to get the team an 8-8 record if he had the players around him... He didn't. Just what every team wants.......A QB that can get them to 8-8.
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Post by McCherry on Aug 21, 2019 11:22:15 GMT -5
Eli's play last year was good enough to get the team an 8-8 record if he had the players around him... He didn't. Just what every team wants.......A QB that can get them to 8-8. Coming off a 3-win season with a new staff, that roster and that schedule, I think most people would've viewed a .500 record as a respectable improvement.
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Post by TCHOF on Aug 21, 2019 11:23:19 GMT -5
Eli's play last year was good enough to get the team an 8-8 record if he had the players around him... He didn't. So that’s his ceiling? 8-8 if we surround him with great players. Well, that makes me feel much better
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Post by GameTime on Aug 21, 2019 11:29:25 GMT -5
so once again its all Eli's fault or its not Eli's fault...
so funny...
its a team game...but only when its not
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Post by Roswell on Aug 21, 2019 14:01:49 GMT -5
Eli's play last year was good enough to get the team an 8-8 record if he had the players around him... He didn't. Let's say that your point is true. Let's say for arguments sake that last year he didn't have the best running back/WR/TE combo that any Giant QB ever had. He did. Let's say his Oline wasn't much better than the year before. It was. And let's say five wins is solely on the D not getting it done. It wasn't. Would you agree, considering the changes made, that this year is finally a "put up or shut up" year for Manning?
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Post by bizcliz on Aug 21, 2019 14:14:20 GMT -5
Eli's play last year was good enough to get the team an 8-8 record if he had the players around him... He didn't. Let's say that your point is true. Let's say for arguments sake that last year he didn't have the best running back/WR/TE combo that any Giant QB ever had. He did. Let's say his Oline wasn't much better than the year before. It was. And let's say five wins is solely on the D not getting it done. It wasn't. Would you agree, considering the changes made, that this year is finally a "put up or shut up" year for Manning? finally, in the sense that it's his last year on contract and most likely in the league? yeah sure Manning doesn't have to shut up anyone, never will, guys had one of the most successful careers of all time and will leave the league with his head held high for what he's accomplished all this conversation is, is for fans and talking heads posturing online about whether or not they were "right" about Eli
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Post by McCherry on Aug 21, 2019 15:34:03 GMT -5
Eli's play last year was good enough to get the team an 8-8 record if he had the players around him... He didn't. Let's say that your point is true. Let's say for arguments sake that last year he didn't have the best running back/WR/TE combo that any Giant QB ever had. He did. Let's say his Oline wasn't much better than the year before. It was. And let's say five wins is solely on the D not getting it done. It wasn't. Would you agree, considering the changes made, that this year is finally a "put up or shut up" year for Manning? Beckham, Engram and Barkley were the best WR, TE, RB combo in Giants history.... Said no-one ever. Eli was sacked 16 more times last year than the previous. Let's just start with some correct facts, please.
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Post by shocknaweny on Aug 21, 2019 15:39:54 GMT -5
What if Eli find his fountain of youth and plays great this year and forces the Giants to play him all year long? Is it a no doubt 100% we just let him go after this season and start DJ in 2020? If Eli plays well then there's no reason for the Giants to start Jones this year. But the beginning of the end of the Eli Era began the minute the Giants spent a Top 10 pick on Jones after multiple losing seasons with an aging, expensive QB. The only real mystery is how the transition will take place. Will the Giants handle it the way they did with Eli and Kurt Warner and bench Eli the first chance they get OR will they do it like the Chiefs did with Smith and Mahomes and move on after the season regardless of whether Eli played well or not? except Smith routinely led that Chiefs team to division titles and playoff appearances
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 21, 2019 16:09:41 GMT -5
So that’s his ceiling? 8-8 if we surround him with great players. Well, that makes me feel much better Not what he was pointing out. Better players around him his play is elevated as was shown last year. ....as was shown last year with 5 wins?
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 21, 2019 16:11:30 GMT -5
Let's say that your point is true. Let's say for arguments sake that last year he didn't have the best running back/WR/TE combo that any Giant QB ever had. He did. Let's say his Oline wasn't much better than the year before. It was. And let's say five wins is solely on the D not getting it done. It wasn't. Would you agree, considering the changes made, that this year is finally a "put up or shut up" year for Manning? Beckham, Engram and Barkley were the best WR, TE, RB combo in Giants history.... Said no-one ever. Eli was sacked 16 more times last year than the previous. Let's just start with some correct facts, please. He was sacked 16 more times because he can't friggin move. And it was worse in 2018 than it has ever been.
Was our O line better in 2017 when we won 3 games? When we had Ereck Flowers at LT?
What IS your point here?
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Post by shocknaweny on Aug 21, 2019 16:12:31 GMT -5
Not what he was pointing out. Better players around him his play is elevated as was shown last year. ....as was shown last year with 5 wins? 5 wins is the new 10 wins
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Post by McCherry on Aug 21, 2019 16:16:16 GMT -5
Beckham, Engram and Barkley were the best WR, TE, RB combo in Giants history.... Said no-one ever. Eli was sacked 16 more times last year than the previous. Let's just start with some correct facts, please.
Was our O line better in 2017 when we won 3 games? When we had Ereck Flowers at LT?
What IS your point here?
That's exactly what I was asking.
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Post by shocknaweny on Aug 21, 2019 16:16:42 GMT -5
Beckham, Engram and Barkley were the best WR, TE, RB combo in Giants history.... Said no-one ever. Eli was sacked 16 more times last year than the previous. Let's just start with some correct facts, please. He was sacked 16 more times because he can't friggin move. And it was worse in 2018 than it has ever been.
Was our O line better in 2017 when we won 3 games? When we had Ereck Flowers at LT?
What IS your point here?
Eli could never really move but it has gotten so much worse....but trying to explain what I am seeing on the field is a tough road depending which posters you are talking to
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Post by McCherry on Aug 21, 2019 16:17:13 GMT -5
Not what he was pointing out. Better players around him his play is elevated as was shown last year. ....as was shown last year with 5 wins? You missed the point too.
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Post by shocknaweny on Aug 21, 2019 16:20:53 GMT -5
can we all just agree that this team has not been very good for the better part of 7 seasons and expecting Eli at age 38 to all of a sudden turn back the clock and play like the franchise QB he is being paid to be is kind of short sighted ....
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Post by Roswell on Aug 21, 2019 16:43:19 GMT -5
Let's say that your point is true. Let's say for arguments sake that last year he didn't have the best running back/WR/TE combo that any Giant QB ever had. He did. Let's say his Oline wasn't much better than the year before. It was. And let's say five wins is solely on the D not getting it done. It wasn't. Would you agree, considering the changes made, that this year is finally a "put up or shut up" year for Manning? Beckham, Engram and Barkley were the best WR, TE, RB combo in Giants history.... Said no-one ever. Eli was sacked 16 more times last year than the previous. Let's just start with some correct facts, please. Well let's start with you naming a better combo of RB/WR/TE. Take your time and give me your combo. Then you can tell me how our LT and LG were better in 2017...center was relatively equal from 17-18. The right side was fixed halfway thru the year and much improved. Sacks can be the fault of the Oline but sometimes the fact that Eli is a statue plays into it.
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