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Post by Bigjeep on Aug 20, 2019 7:41:58 GMT -5
How good Jones will be, only time ( lots of time ) will tell!
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Post by Jomo on Aug 20, 2019 7:42:00 GMT -5
Baker Mayfield trashed the Jones pick in a GQ article. He thinks a winning pedigree is they key, but Jones did win relative to Duke’s usual results in football. This is only relevant if we accept Mayfield's premise, which I don't. Mayfield's perspective is limited by his own narrow experience in a big time program. Someone should introduce him to Phil Simms.
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Post by giantlegacy on Aug 20, 2019 7:43:04 GMT -5
Looking at your question from the other side first, we have seen nothing in DJ approach and performance to suggest he will be anything other than very good+. There is a long way to go before we can be sure of that. To your question, in 50 years the Giants haven't ever had anyone who looked this good early on and wound up flopping. All of our busts have looked like marginal right out of the blocks, including Graham and Brown. I have heard Gil Brandt say many times that you really can't coach accuracy. DJ shows great accuracy thus far. Gil Brandt was one of the few who thought Jones was going to not only be legit bit actually Elite if you recall At 90 he probably still could be a top 15 GM in this league,he knows talent.
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Post by dannydimes8 on Aug 20, 2019 7:44:42 GMT -5
Davis Webb went 14-20 with a TD in preseason game 3 last year. The beat guys called him the best offensive player on the field. He was cut....
This stuff isn’t real football. It’s good he’s making throws, but who you are facing matters.
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Post by Jomo on Aug 20, 2019 7:52:24 GMT -5
Davis Webb went 14-20 with a TD in preseason game 3 last year. The beat guys called him the best offensive player on the field. He was cut.... This stuff isn’t real football. It’s good he’s making throws, but who you are facing matters. …..and when did the beat writers become credible evaluators of talent? They are not scouts or assistant GMs for a reason. I don't recall the prevailing view of these boards being anything other than "the jury is still out" with Webb. What most here saw in Webb was a guy with a strong arm and tunnel vision. There was no fluidity to his game. I saw the same thing 2 weeks ago when he was in there for the Jets. He is still slow to read coverages and proned to force flat passes into impossible windows.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 20, 2019 7:56:25 GMT -5
its simple....every QB taken in the NFL draft is much more likely to fail than succeed. That chance goes way up the further down thy are drafted. We all know that.
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Post by dannydimes8 on Aug 20, 2019 8:02:16 GMT -5
Davis Webb went 14-20 with a TD in preseason game 3 last year. The beat guys called him the best offensive player on the field. He was cut.... This stuff isn’t real football. It’s good he’s making throws, but who you are facing matters. …..and when did the beat writers become credible evaluators of talent? They are not scouts or assistant GMs for a reason. I don't recall the prevailing view of these boards being anything other than "the jury is still out" with Webb. What most here saw in Webb was a guy with a strong arm and tunnel vision. There was no fluidity to his game. I saw the same thing 2 weeks ago when he was in there for the Jets. He is still slow to read coverages and proned to force flat passes into impossible windows. If Jones was a 4th round pick and put up these exact same results the jury would be out on him. The fact he went 6th is making us all want to believe what we are seeing. My point above was Davis Webb dud something similar last year and got cut. That’s how meaningless this preseason results are. Jones will eventually take Eli’s place and the game he sees then will be unrecognizable to the game he’s seeing in preseason. That’s why multiple proven regular season scrubs are lighting up August right now. Ds are in base looks with backup personnel. I saw highlights of Jones from Duke I already know he can make these throws. The test is making them when pass rushers are coming and legit NFL coverage people are closing in on your throws. You can’t simulate a real game with a pretend game.
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Post by Jomo on Aug 20, 2019 8:18:44 GMT -5
…..and when did the beat writers become credible evaluators of talent? They are not scouts or assistant GMs for a reason. I don't recall the prevailing view of these boards being anything other than "the jury is still out" with Webb. What most here saw in Webb was a guy with a strong arm and tunnel vision. There was no fluidity to his game. I saw the same thing 2 weeks ago when he was in there for the Jets. He is still slow to read coverages and proned to force flat passes into impossible windows. If Jones was a 4th round pick and put up these exact same results the jury would be out on him. The fact he went 6th is making us all want to believe what we are seeing. My point above was Davis Webb dud something similar last year and got cut. That’s how meaningless this preseason results are. Jones will eventually take Eli’s place and the game he sees then will be unrecognizable to the game he’s seeing in preseason. That’s why multiple proven regular season scrubs are lighting up August right now. Ds are in base looks with backup personnel. I saw highlights of Jones from Duke I already know he can make these throws. The test is making them when pass rushers are coming and legit NFL coverage people are closing in on your throws. You can’t simulate a real game with a pretend game. Some may be jaded in their opinion based on where he was picked but the accuracy and timing in those throws, crossing routes and fade passes is unmistakable and decidedly different from what we saw in Webb. This DOES NOT mean that DJ is heading for greatness. It simply means that in quasi game situations, he is capable of making those types of plays......so far so good. If you think DJ is no better than Webb, who am I to say you are wrong? I almost never say someone is wrong here. I just see DJ's throwing skills as far superior to Webb's through the first four months of his career with us. And for me, it is not based on where he was chosen but rather on what I have observed in the 2 games and at camp.
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Post by dannydimes8 on Aug 20, 2019 8:34:47 GMT -5
If Jones was a 4th round pick and put up these exact same results the jury would be out on him. The fact he went 6th is making us all want to believe what we are seeing. My point above was Davis Webb dud something similar last year and got cut. That’s how meaningless this preseason results are. Jones will eventually take Eli’s place and the game he sees then will be unrecognizable to the game he’s seeing in preseason. That’s why multiple proven regular season scrubs are lighting up August right now. Ds are in base looks with backup personnel. I saw highlights of Jones from Duke I already know he can make these throws. The test is making them when pass rushers are coming and legit NFL coverage people are closing in on your throws. You can’t simulate a real game with a pretend game. Some may be jaded in their opinion based on where he was picked but the accuracy and timing in those throws, crossing routes and fade passes is unmistakable and decidedly different from what we saw in Webb. This DOES NOT mean that DJ is heading for greatness. It simply means that in quasi game situations, he is capable of making those types of plays......so far so good. If you think DJ is no better than Webb, who am I to say you are wrong? I almost never say someone is wrong here. I just see DJ's throwing skills as far superior to Webb's through the first four months of his career with us. And for me, it is not based on where he was chosen but rather on what I have observed in the 2 games and at camp. I’m not comparing Jones to Webb. And look at my handle. I’m a fan. I wanted Josh Allen in 18, but I preferred Jones to Haskins and Lock. Expectations should be high for a QB taken 6 and I have high expectations, he could go 100-100 in preseason and I’ll expect struggles when he first takes over for the 1 simple fact: real games are much harder for QBs than preseason games. He will see greater speed, greater awareness by defenders, disguised looks, more blitzes. The totality of everything in real games is what makes playing QB hard. And all that said playing QB is easier now than ever before. The rules favor them and they are groomed in pro style offenses earlier. That’s why I want him out there ASAP make the mistakes now. Make that big jump in Year 2.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 20, 2019 9:06:17 GMT -5
So we certainly shouldn’t be getting out the anointing oils at this point, but I did start the wonder - has a QB come in and looked as good as Jones has and then turned out to be a bust? I suppose the real question is, “is there any meaning to his start’? Leaf had a great preseason. Peyton did not. If I remember right Peyton had a tough first half of the first year and near the 3/4 mark he started to turn it around and play really good like night and day.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 20, 2019 9:14:16 GMT -5
bottom line.... he looks good. Lets take it day by day, game by game, season by season.(hopefully) Yup the hard part about this is QBs are more ready to play now. Teams will either draft guy who fits their system or change their system to fit what the QB does well. Hard to compare like in leafs case he clearly has a personality disorder that is hard enough to deal with in regular life never mind the pressure of being the face of a franchise. I know because some one close to me suffers from Bi Polar syndrome. In RG3s case not only did they play him hurt but they should have been working hard on keeping him in the pocket no QB lasts long when they start using their legs moreqthen their arm.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 20, 2019 9:17:59 GMT -5
Baker Mayfield trashed the Jones pick in a GQ article. He thinks a winning pedigree is they key, but Jones did win relative to Duke’s usual results in football. Mayfield is a Putz he knows nothing. He is a good football player. The question is if he was chased around and hit a bunch will he still be good it's gonna happen didn't in college and didn't last year because they had a very good OL especially interior where it counts the most for a short QB.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 20, 2019 9:28:00 GMT -5
Baker Mayfield trashed the Jones pick in a GQ article. He thinks a winning pedigree is they key, but Jones did win relative to Duke’s usual results in football. This is only relevant if we accept Mayfield's premise, which I don't. Mayfield's perspective is limited by his own narrow experience in a big time program. Someone should introduce him to Phil Simms. Or maybe big Ben will have something to say about it Miami of Ohio is not exactly a powerhouse. Mayfield is a fine QB for his young age but he should remember the league he played in school had 0 defense and he was on the best team, I think if you exchange him with Murray, Murray on that roster could flourish and Baker who can run some but not like Murray would struggle mightly in AZ, he's a good player but the success of that team is based on years of top 3 draft position not just him.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 20, 2019 9:43:11 GMT -5
In the end we all like to think these guys are gonna carry a team or be great. They are only gonna be as good as the team around them allows them to be. Dak when he was pressed into action in the preseason the Cowboys had just completed one of the best OLs in football to protect Tony Romo and drafted the next great back in Elliot to give Romo that run game. Dak was reading half the field but he still lit it up with whitten and Dez Beasly, when the regular season came along that OL made it very easy on him he was sitting back there having coffee. Only when teams managed to pressure him or shut down the run he struggled. Young QBs hold the ball little longer, takes a little more reading.What I'm saying Jones has shown he has the tools legs good enough arm accuracy smarts the Giants are building around him now when all the piece are in place his job will be much easier and he will know the offense better I think he has a good chance to be a good QB.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 20, 2019 10:07:09 GMT -5
I feel the same about Haskins now as I did before the draft. I simply don't have enough info about him. Maybe he can be awesome, maybe not. Just a lack of info. I feel bad that he went to Washington because I don't feel like that is a good place for a QB to succeed and that could hinder him. Other teams would have given him a better chance for success. Murray throws a very nice ball, but overcoming that height in the NFL will be tough; but not having the speed gap he had in college is what will ultimately kill his career. Reggie Bush, Vince Young and RGIII all come to mind as guys that come to mind. Wow what a profound thought lmao.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 20, 2019 10:07:50 GMT -5
Baker Mayfield trashed the Jones pick in a GQ article. He thinks a winning pedigree is they key, but Jones did win relative to Duke’s usual results in football. I would say Jones did more for Duke football than Baker did for Oklahoma football.
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soflo
Special Teams
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Post by soflo on Aug 20, 2019 10:14:08 GMT -5
Yep ........ another chap from Duke wearing #17 springs to mind Dave Brown was not impressive in training camp. I remember him throwing one long TD pass that got people excited, but it was only a moment. So far DJ has put together a lot more moments.
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soflo
Special Teams
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Post by soflo on Aug 20, 2019 10:19:36 GMT -5
So we certainly shouldn’t be getting out the anointing oils at this point, but I did start the wonder - has a QB come in and looked as good as Jones has and then turned out to be a bust? I suppose the real question is, “is there any meaning to his start’? RGIII looked amazing his rookie year. Lots of things lead to someone being a bust. Is Luck considered a bust?
Overall I think it is good that Jones has started off well. It does not ensure success but it is a leg up on looking poor. Haskins and Murray both look like they need a bunch of work to get to the next level. Jones has things to work on but looks a lot closer to being an NFL QB. This does not ensure future success though.
RG3 was an exception though. I knew the guy was a gimmick with the read option defense and I remember saying that once the league had an offseason to figure out how to play him, he would be forced to throw the ball in containment and become ineffective because his accuracy was for shit. Shanahan also didn't like him as a QB, whereas the Giants coach and GM really love Jones (ironically, they were the only ones who did). But Shanahan later said that they pretty much ran a very simplified offense for RG3, similar to the Raiders dumbing down their offense for Jamarcus Russel. RG3 was way smarter than Russel, although a bag of rocks would have been smarter, and ultimately you want a QB who can mentally process complex schemes.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 20, 2019 10:20:53 GMT -5
The fact that Mayfield doesn’t realize that he shouldn’t render an opinion about everything he is asked doesn’t bode well for his relationship with his diva receivers.
As soon as the Browns season hits a speed bump, and it will, that’s going to be must see TV. It’ll start out like a house on fire, but eventually when they drop three in a row, they will turn on each other.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 20, 2019 10:24:20 GMT -5
Baker Mayfield trashed the Jones pick in a GQ article. He thinks a winning pedigree is they key, but Jones did win relative to Duke’s usual results in football. I would say Jones did more for Duke football than Baker did for Oklahoma football. That’s a bit much. OU played in the CF Championship. Duke did nothing. As much as I think Jones will be good, I’d trade him for Mayfield in a heartbeat.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 20, 2019 10:25:45 GMT -5
Baker Mayfield trashed the Jones pick in a GQ article. He thinks a winning pedigree is they key, but Jones did win relative to Duke’s usual results in football. I would say Jones did more for Duke football than Baker did for Oklahoma football. Oklahoma in the no defense conference you can only tackle after 5 yards lol
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 20, 2019 10:31:06 GMT -5
The fact that Mayfield doesn’t realize that he shouldn’t render an opinion about everything he is asked doesn’t bode well for his relationship with his diva receivers. As soon as the Browns season hits a speed bump, and it will, that’s going to be must see TV. It’ll start out like a house on fire, but eventually when they drop three in a row, they will turn on each other. He was not asked about Jones it was on ESPN in the restaurant they were doing the interview he saw it and took upon himself to dog the pick and Jones .If he doesn't shut his mouth he will have a window about as big as RG3s was and all RG3 did is make defenses look bad with his legs not run his pie hole. The defenses in this league will take notice if he keeps talking.
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 20, 2019 10:40:58 GMT -5
I respect your honesty, but the thing is we've been in QB hell with Eli for years.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not blaming Eli solely. I know Oline played a huge part and I think McAdouche did as well, but that doesn't change the fact that we have been just as bad with Eli at the helm as we were with Dave Brown, Graham, Maddox, etc.
is that QB hell or just team hell though? depends on who you ask here, but it's worth the question Based on the importance of the position I think it was both.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 20, 2019 10:52:28 GMT -5
I would say Jones did more for Duke football than Baker did for Oklahoma football. That’s a bit much. OU played in the CF Championship. Duke did nothing. As much as I think Jones will be good, I’d trade him for Mayfield in a heartbeat. Really? OU has a .724 all time record. They have won 7 National Titles, 7 Heismans and 80 All Americans. The guy that replaced Mayfield did just as good as Mayfield and also won the Heisman.
Duke on the other hand has a .490 all time record, zero national titles, 0 Heisman winners and 5 All Americans. Let's see how the guy replacing Jones does.
Of course you would trade him for Mayfield, you probably didn't want us to draft him. See me in a few years so we can actually compare the two. To be clear I don't think Mayfield is bad at all.
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 20, 2019 10:57:39 GMT -5
Top 32? The top 32 is actually the bottom. I stopped watching every game in 2017. The last time I did that was back in to 90’s. The Giants lost more games that season than they ever lost in the history of the organization. Eli was throwing the ball into the dirt and going down without being touched. You guys are simply not being honest about how low his game got. Please explain how the top 32 QBs are actually the bottom?
The Giants as a whole were terrible the past two years. We were in team hell. I am being honest about his game (it was terrible), you are not being honest if you don't think things could be worse.
I said that wrong.
Being in the top 32 is not a positive thing in itself. As an example, Dave Brown was a top 32 player in his years as our starter as well.
We were 3-13. That is THE most losses in team history in a season. Sure, we could have lost all 16 but losing 13 is the worst we've ever done.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 20, 2019 11:03:44 GMT -5
I said that wrong.
Being in the top 32 is not a positive thing in itself. As an example, Dave Brown was a top 32 player in his years as our starter as well.
We were 3-13. That is THE most losses in team history in a season. Sure, we could have lost all 16 but losing 13 is the worst we've ever done.
Fair enough. My point is that I don't think Brown was a top 32 QB. I don't think he was starter quality and we struggled for years to find a starter quality QB shifting from one to another to another. That to me is hell. Riding out the end of an aging QBs career with a crappy team is not QB hell IMO. Opinions may vary of course.
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Post by Jomo on Aug 20, 2019 11:12:06 GMT -5
Some may be jaded in their opinion based on where he was picked but the accuracy and timing in those throws, crossing routes and fade passes is unmistakable and decidedly different from what we saw in Webb. This DOES NOT mean that DJ is heading for greatness. It simply means that in quasi game situations, he is capable of making those types of plays......so far so good. If you think DJ is no better than Webb, who am I to say you are wrong? I almost never say someone is wrong here. I just see DJ's throwing skills as far superior to Webb's through the first four months of his career with us. And for me, it is not based on where he was chosen but rather on what I have observed in the 2 games and at camp. I’m not comparing Jones to Webb. And look at my handle. I’m a fan. I wanted Josh Allen in 18, but I preferred Jones to Haskins and Lock. Expectations should be high for a QB taken 6 and I have high expectations, he could go 100-100 in preseason and I’ll expect struggles when he first takes over for the 1 simple fact: real games are much harder for QBs than preseason games. He will see greater speed, greater awareness by defenders, disguised looks, more blitzes. The totality of everything in real games is what makes playing QB hard. And all that said playing QB is easier now than ever before. The rules favor them and they are groomed in pro style offenses earlier. That’s why I want him out there ASAP make the mistakes now. Make that big jump in Year 2. I agree with all of that. The jury of course is out and we won't know for sure until he has to put the team on his back in a big (like final drive in an NFC championship game) moment. It could be years (say it ain't so) before we answer this question. All of that said, Webb's numbers were just that....meaningless numbers and the media who are weighing in on him back then are not skilled observers. He never had it, for me anyway. Strong arm tunnel vision guys are a dime a dozen and easy to pick out.
Jones shows me some really nice things for this early in his career, with an opportunity to build and no worrisome moments.....yet. So, I share you enthusiasm for what could and hopefully does lie ahead.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 20, 2019 11:32:04 GMT -5
That’s a bit much. OU played in the CF Championship. Duke did nothing. As much as I think Jones will be good, I’d trade him for Mayfield in a heartbeat. Really? OU has a .724 all time record. They have won 7 National Titles, 7 Heismans and 80 All Americans. The guy that replaced Mayfield did just as good as Mayfield and also won the Heisman.
Duke on the other hand has a .490 all time record, zero national titles, 0 Heisman winners and 5 All Americans. Let's see how the guy replacing Jones does.
Of course you would trade him for Mayfield, you probably didn't want us to draft him. See me in a few years so we can actually compare the two. To be clear I don't think Mayfield is bad at all.
You’re going to have to tell me what Jones, and I like him as a player by the way, did for Duke football. What? He turned that program around? The last time Oklahoma won a college championship was almost 20 years ago and would’ve won with Mayfield if the D didn’t get lit up like a Christmas tree. Again, I like Jones, but he had virtually no impact on the Duke football program while he was there compared to Mayfield’s impact at OU. I can’t even believe we are having this conversation. Mayfield won the Heisman.
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Post by Jomo on Aug 20, 2019 11:54:18 GMT -5
Really? OU has a .724 all time record. They have won 7 National Titles, 7 Heismans and 80 All Americans. The guy that replaced Mayfield did just as good as Mayfield and also won the Heisman.
Duke on the other hand has a .490 all time record, zero national titles, 0 Heisman winners and 5 All Americans. Let's see how the guy replacing Jones does.
Of course you would trade him for Mayfield, you probably didn't want us to draft him. See me in a few years so we can actually compare the two. To be clear I don't think Mayfield is bad at all.
You’re going to have to tell me what Jones, and I like him as a player by the way, did for Duke football. What? He turned that program around? The last time Oklahoma won a college championship was almost 20 years ago and would’ve won with Mayfield if the D didn’t get lit up like a Christmas tree. Again, I like Jones, but he had virtually no impact on the Duke football program while he was there compared to Mayfield’s impact at OU. I can’t even believe we are having this conversation. Mayfield won the Heisman. I think if we just boil it down to what the individual has done or the potential they show the conversation would be much more productive.
OU's all time winning record, National Titles, Heisman winners and 80 All Americans DO NOT inure to Mayfield's benefit any more than Duke's lack of a big time football track record should tarnish Jones' potential. How did Morehead State impact Phil Simms' NFL career?
So, what we know that is real is that Mayfield won a Heisman trophy which reflects well on him. He had a very good rookie season which is also positive. Jones has no Heisman on his mantle and hasn't played a live down as an NFL QB.
This all simply means that Mayfield has checked a few more boxes than Jones and the jury is still out on both of them.
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Post by Nite on Aug 20, 2019 12:07:59 GMT -5
You’re going to have to tell me what Jones, and I like him as a player by the way, did for Duke football. What? He turned that program around? The last time Oklahoma won a college championship was almost 20 years ago and would’ve won with Mayfield if the D didn’t get lit up like a Christmas tree. Again, I like Jones, but he had virtually no impact on the Duke football program while he was there compared to Mayfield’s impact at OU. I can’t even believe we are having this conversation. Mayfield won the Heisman. I think if we just boil it down to what the individual has done or the potential they show the conversation would be much more productive.
OU's all time winning record, National Titles, Heisman winners and 80 All Americans DO NOT inure to Mayfield's benefit any more than Duke's lack of a big time football track record should tarnish Jones' potential. How did Morehead State impact Phil Simms' NFL career?
So, what we know that is real is that Mayfield won a Heisman trophy which reflects well on him. He had a very good rookie season which is also positive. Jones has no Heisman on his mantle and hasn't played a live down as an NFL QB.
This all simply means that Mayfield has checked a few more boxes than Jones and the jury is still out on both of them.
Just curious...How would Mayfield's OU team done against Alabama or Clemson?..Or more specifically how would Mayfield himself do?
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