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Post by TEM on Aug 21, 2019 18:08:27 GMT -5
2017 Defense 5971 total yards against 42 TDs 2018 Defense 5945 total yards against 42 TDS Where is this improvement you claim? I didn't claim anything, I gave you facts. More facts for you. Teams scored on average ~30 points in 2018 than in 2017. That is why you didn't see a drop in total TDs given up but you did see a big improvement in ranking. The ranking was due to other Defenses becoming worse than ours , Not that ours improved . They are statistical identical. You have me pegged wrong i want this Defense to succeed. Until he can implement his system with success. I will remain skeptical of him. I am not a fan of a system that has too many square edges to navigate, I want him to succeed . I just do not how see he can without all 25 player on Defense being plug and play into his schema. I think the BBs hybrid system. Not quite a 4-3 and definitely not a 3-4 with players to work in both is the future of Defense.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 21, 2019 18:11:30 GMT -5
I point out a lot. What was good about it last year? You kept saying how great OV and Martin would be in his system last off season. If I recall correctly you said the system more fits OVs style of play. and would be a sack machine. Why was he traded ? People in glass houses should not throw stones Martin did exactly what was expected of him. He isn't a great LB and was not brought in to be one. If you remember what I actually said was that OV would be good in Bettchers D but it would take two years, not counting an injury plagued year. That is when the lightbulb clicks for the stud pass rushers in Bettchers defense. I have no idea why OV was traded but I can guess. #1 we are desperate to fix our OL and trading for one of the top OGs in the league makes a ton of sense. #2 He has had two injured seasons in a row and that's not going to help him. #3 We owed him $15.5 million each of the next two years which is the #3 highest for a DE in the league. #4 Year three of his contract was an out for us with zero cap him. I personally did not want to trade him, but I am not blind and can see how it makes sense.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 21, 2019 18:22:37 GMT -5
The ranking was due to other Defenses becoming worse than ours , Not that ours improved . They are statistical identical. The entire league scored 30 more points on average? The #1 defense in 2018 was the Bears, they gave up 283 points. The #1 defense in 2017 was the Vikings, they gave up 252 points. Every defense in the league got worse.
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Post by TEM on Aug 21, 2019 18:26:16 GMT -5
I point out a lot. What was good about it last year? You kept saying how great OV and Martin would be in his system last off season. If I recall correctly you said the system more fits OVs style of play. and would be a sack machine. Why was he traded ? People in glass houses should not throw stones Martin did exactly what was expected of him. He isn't a great LB and was not brought in to be one. If you remember what I actually said was that OV would be good in Bettchers D but it would take two years, not counting an injury plagued year. That is when the lightbulb clicks for the stud pass rushers in Bettchers defense. I have no idea why OV was traded but I can guess. #1 we are desperate to fix our OL and trading for one of the top OGs in the league makes a ton of sense. #2 He has had two injured seasons in a row and that's not going to help him. #3 We owed him $15.5 million each of the next two years which is the #3 highest for a DE in the league. #4 Year three of his contract was an out for us with zero cap him. I personally did not want to trade him, but I am not blind and can see how it makes sense. I know why he was traded. When he was . I was sure we were getting a pass rusher with our #6 pic. i was perplexed by the DJ pick . nor for the statistical reason i gave on why not to pick him . Our last true DEs was Wynn . We have none . We are stuck with the 3-4 II do not see how the Defense can thrive on a blitz. I think our young secondary is going to be placed into a situation they are not ready for because of the a pass rusher. maybe one of our young OLB or DTs step up and raise an eyebrow with getting to the QB , I in the camp you do not build a system on Maybe, As far as your Danial Jones comment about me . I had my reservations on why I did not think he was not a worthy #6 pick.I better be 100% wrong because , If I am right. The talking head D-bags will have their day in the limelight . i would rather be wrong 100% of the time if it means they will look as foolish as they act. Not to mention The Giants future depends on him, Any Giants fan that would want him to fail or for me the DC so thy can say "I told you so" is not a true Giants fan.
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Post by TEM on Aug 21, 2019 18:28:35 GMT -5
The ranking was due to other Defenses becoming worse than ours , Not that ours improved . They are statistical identical. The entire league scored 30 more points on average? The #1 defense in 2018 was the Bears, they gave up 283 points. The #1 defense in 2017 was the Vikings, they gave up 252 points. Every defense in the league got worse. The yardage is identical in passing and rushing a few yards either way . They were the same. We did not get worse , But we definitely did not improve. I want to see it this year.
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Post by bluebuddha on Aug 21, 2019 19:39:24 GMT -5
I will respond to the rest of your post but first want to touch on this. That is an opinion not a fact. A fact is our defense was the 27th defense in the league the year before he got here. They were not good. We were 23rd last year....an improvement. Those are facts. You can believe what you want. We had a top 5 defense the year before. There was no way the entire defense was unkeepable . Not for one second should you believe that it was, Ross Cockerel let him walk because he was not worth keeping Kelvin Sheppard he sucked why resign him DRC he could not play safety Andrew Adams he was not worth keeping . Only 4 INTs with Tampa Romeo Okwara he wasn't worth keeping PS: having 4 other defense becoming worse, than ours is not an indicator that ours improved . Our defense stayed the same . Not wht i want from a new DC . Show at least improvement somewhere? 2017 Defense 5971 total yards against 4038 passing 1933 rushing 42 TDs giving 2018 Defense 5945 total yards against 4047 passing 1898 rushing 42 TDS Where is this improvement you claim? I looked at this at one time I believe we had more sacks, ints, tfls and qb pressures from 2017. I am surprised we gave up the same amount of touchdowns.
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Post by Kase1 on Aug 21, 2019 19:48:16 GMT -5
I agree, our system is clearly a hybrid system. We have players in who can play both systems, especially our guys on the DL. Tomlinson could be a 3/4 NT or a 4/3 DT Hill could be a 3/4 DE or 4/3 DE Lawrence could be a 3/4 NT OR DE or a 4/3 3-Tech DT Ximines could be a 3/4 OLB or a light 4/3 DE Carter could be a 3/4 OLB or a 4/3 OLB Ogletree could be a 3/4 or 4/3 ILB Connelly could be a 3/4 ILB or 4/3 OLB
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Post by TEM on Aug 21, 2019 20:09:14 GMT -5
I agree, our system is clearly a hybrid system. We have players in who can play both systems, especially our guys on the DL. Tomlinson could be a 3/4 NT or a 4/3 DT Hill could be a 3/4 DE or 4/3 DE Lawrence could be a 3/4 NT OR DE or a 4/3 3-Tech DT Ximines could be a 3/4 OLB or a light 4/3 DE Carter could be a 3/4 OLB or a 4/3 OLB Ogletree could be a 3/4 or 4/3 ILB Connelly could be a 3/4 ILB or 4/3 OLB We do not have the 4-3 DEs anymore. Wynn was the last one. I do not think we can run a hybrid and are in full 3-4 mode.
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Post by JPthePizz on Aug 22, 2019 8:15:41 GMT -5
I think Hill and Golden are going to be the question marks. I am thinking we have a secret weapon in Carter. 4 sacks as a rookie, AND quietly led the team in tackles for loss. I think he has a lower floor than the others, for sure. BJ Hill was right behind him, imo, in terms of being a nice surprise in unexpected production.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 12:27:45 GMT -5
I think Hill and Golden are going to be the question marks. I am thinking we have a secret weapon in Carter. 4 sacks as a rookie, AND quietly led the team in tackles for loss. I think he has a lower floor than the others, for sure. BJ Hill was right behind him, imo, in terms of being a nice surprise in unexpected production. I agree with this, and im hoping, really hoping carter is gonna stand out, i think he will, but we'll see. I think bj hill is a beast in the making. im really curious how those two are gonna play this year. im reaaaally curious to on lawrence and the xman. our secondary is gonna go through some growing pains, some missed coverages so we'll see. i think 2019 is all practice and experience for when we really start to be a factor in 2020 and beyond.....
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Post by Kase1 on Aug 22, 2019 16:47:26 GMT -5
I agree, our system is clearly a hybrid system. We have players in who can play both systems, especially our guys on the DL. Tomlinson could be a 3/4 NT or a 4/3 DT Hill could be a 3/4 DE or 4/3 DE Lawrence could be a 3/4 NT OR DE or a 4/3 3-Tech DT Ximines could be a 3/4 OLB or a light 4/3 DE Carter could be a 3/4 OLB or a 4/3 OLB Ogletree could be a 3/4 or 4/3 ILB Connelly could be a 3/4 ILB or 4/3 OLB We do not have the 4-3 DEs anymore. Wynn was the last one. I do not think we can run a hybrid and are in full 3-4 mode. But there are plenty of looks where we line up 4 players on the DL..... Havent noticed if they're 4-3, Nickel, or Dime formation, but we def run 4 man fronts at times Im still disappointed we let Wynn walk, I always feel like he was an underrated player for us
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Post by TEM on Aug 22, 2019 16:53:33 GMT -5
We do not have the 4-3 DEs anymore. Wynn was the last one. I do not think we can run a hybrid and are in full 3-4 mode. But there are plenty of looks where we line up 4 players on the DL..... Havent noticed if they're 4-3, Nickel, or Dime formation, but we def run 4 man fronts at times Im still disappointed we let Wynn walk, I always feel like he was an underrated player for us I do not know we have an edge DE that can put hie hand on the ground,
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Post by Kase1 on Aug 22, 2019 17:05:56 GMT -5
But there are plenty of looks where we line up 4 players on the DL..... Havent noticed if they're 4-3, Nickel, or Dime formation, but we def run 4 man fronts at times Im still disappointed we let Wynn walk, I always feel like he was an underrated player for us I do not know we have an edge DE that can put hie hand on the ground, I feel like Hill is the only one who could really pull it off right now. IDEALLY Ximines could pull it off, but I think he would need a little more practice at that spot, but who knows
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Post by TEM on Aug 22, 2019 17:15:06 GMT -5
I do not know we have an edge DE that can put their hand on the ground, I feel like Hill is the only one who could really pull it off right now. IDEALLY Ximines could pull it off, but I think he would need a little more practice at that spot, but who knows I think X and Carter will be great 3-4 OLBs . It is going to take time for them to come into their own. Hopefully sooner than later. IMO:Neither one of them is a 4-3 DE that could put his hand on the ground. We are going to miss Wynn's abilities in that aspect.
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Post by Kase1 on Aug 22, 2019 17:42:09 GMT -5
I feel like Hill is the only one who could really pull it off right now. IDEALLY Ximines could pull it off, but I think he would need a little more practice at that spot, but who knows I think X and Carter will be great 3-4 OLBs . It is going to take time for them to come into their own. Hopefully sooner than later. IMO:Neither one of them is a 4-3 DE that could put his hand on the ground. We are going to miss Wynn's abilities in that aspect. At 6'4 254 Ximines might be able to pull off that role, but I have more faith in him making an impact as a 3-4 OLB as well. Our base system is def a 3-4, but we still run alot of nickel and dime sets. So we will need a DE who can play with his hand in the dirt.
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Post by jimmieray on Aug 22, 2019 17:59:07 GMT -5
I think X and Carter will be great 3-4 OLBs . It is going to take time for them to come into their own. Hopefully sooner than later. IMO:Neither one of them is a 4-3 DE that could put his hand on the ground. We are going to miss Wynn's abilities in that aspect. At 6'4 254 Ximines might be able to pull off that role, but I have more faith in him making an impact as a 3-4 OLB as well. Our base system is def a 3-4, but we still run alot of nickel and dime sets. So we will need a DE who can play with his hand in the dirt. I've read some speculation that Lawrence will not just play at NT, but also rotate outside in certain situations.
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Post by Kase1 on Aug 22, 2019 18:33:53 GMT -5
Yo TEM, looks like Golden AND Carter have both been playing with their 'hands in the dirt'
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Post by lt56 on Aug 23, 2019 11:34:57 GMT -5
Carter I think is ready to break out while Hill had a strong Rookie season and will get better
Golden is a solid veteran but lets be honest the hope is for Oshane Ximines to eventually develop and take that other Edge Rusher spot opposite of Carter
Golden is way better than Martin that is for sure
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 11:39:01 GMT -5
Still not seeing where all the Carter praise is coming from. The xman at least beat some 2nd and 3rd string players.
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Post by lasion2 on Aug 23, 2019 11:59:41 GMT -5
Still not seeing where all the Carter praise is coming from. The xman at least beat some 2nd and 3rd string players. I was wondering the same thing. He’s been invisible so far in preseason. Did I miss some plays? I’ve admittedly on watched 50-75% of the snaps
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Post by GameTime on Aug 23, 2019 12:04:45 GMT -5
Still not seeing where all the Carter praise is coming from. The xman at least beat some 2nd and 3rd string players. I was wondering the same thing. He’s been invisible so far in preseason. Did I miss some plays? I’ve admittedly on watched 50-75% of the snaps not saying he wont be a goof player but I have my doubts too. Look at his "mic'd up" video on the Giants.com. He was getting handled on every play shown except for one.
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Post by TEM on Sept 8, 2019 18:09:06 GMT -5
So what talented pass rusher did he have last year?
Do you know that he had a successful defense without Chandler Jones in it as well?
You miss the point. We had enough talent to run his blitz system . It sucked , it most likely sucked in AZ . He has Jones to bail his inept system out . He does not have that now. His main problem is; As with McAdoo he has no answer on how to adjust his system to compensate if it fails. Here is the time line and the facts. We a good Core of a 4-3 . Need some secondary help and some depth pass rushers. He came in and tore it down to almost nothing . Brought in 22 new Defensive players the fit his system. Built a unit that was a we can win with this defense. Now he has tore it down for the second straight year. Brought in a new bunch of fit his system players. His system sucks. I have been watching football for a long time . I have never ever ever seen a DC tare down a Defense 2 years in a row. Almost every player . Who has ever done that? This I am sure of; this is not the Giants second year in his system. For most of the players it is the first. last year we has JJ. LC Goodson , OV and Tomlinson. Not cut from Spags. Every other player was new, This year we have JJ Tomlinson Ogletree (Martin I think he gets cut) Carter, Hill. From las year. Goodson is going to get cut. And a few rotation guys MaCintosh.... I do not see how anyone is not questioning this? Why does this guy have to rebuild an entire D for the second year in a row when it was suppose to be a defense full of players that fit his system and could win. What is his excuse going to be at the end of this season? I wish I were wrong .
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