soflo
Special Teams
Posts: 1,718
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Post by soflo on Aug 21, 2019 22:31:07 GMT -5
A 4-3 schema is much easier to find players to fit it, DE are much easier to transition into the NFL than 3-4 edge rusher. And there are more of them. All NT are DTs . Not all DTs are NTs The biggest problem for the 3-4 system . If that NT can not anchor the D-line . Your front gets ran through. It's well known that a weakness of the 3-4 is the "world theory": There are only so many natural two-gap 3-4 nose tackles in the world, and if you don't have one you can't stop the run. It exposes your MLBs to take on OGs . A mismatch. 3-4 defensive ends must be true two-way players, typically 280 pounds or more. Their prime responsibility is to stop the run, but they must also have the ability to beat offensive tackles and sack the quarterback. Few players can truly dominate in both roles. Must have the right fit for 3-4 DEs As with a 3-4 NT it's true of 3-4 DEs as well: not many ends can overpower tackles and tight ends in the run game yet still have the speed and technique needed to sack the quarterback. IN a 4-3 your DT take on the OGs Without quality ends, the pass rush must come from the blitz. It much easier to find a a run stopping 4-3 MLB (Goodson) Then it is to find 3-4 cover/ blitz/ runs stoppers The pass-rushing stars of the 3-4, though, are not the defensive linemen. The size and strength of the men up front allows the linebackers to attack any of the gaps with almost any number and combination of linebackers. The best pure pass-rushing linebacker in the 4-3 typically plays on the right (ROLB), attacking the blind side of the quarterback from the outside edge. The LOLB also brings heat on the strong side, but he may have to fight through a tight end, depending on the protection, It is hard to find those guys opposed to a 4-3 DE. Relying on the four linebackers to provide the pass rush is a dangerous game. Linebackers must also share coverage responsibilities, and too-aggressive blitzing can be exploited by good quarterbacks. Both can be great systems when all is right. IMO: The 4-3 is easier to plug players into. Based on this theory, it sounds like Dexter Lawrence has more value to this defense than Josh Allen.
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Post by moecoastie on Aug 21, 2019 22:41:09 GMT -5
TBD - Im not completely sold but its only been 1 year.
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Post by JPthePizz on Aug 22, 2019 8:01:50 GMT -5
I voted that "it doesn't matter", simply because it's more about the personnel. If we get an impact NT, then it would be worth sticking 3-4....but, I feel like quality LBs are getting harder to find, so....that could easily change.
That said, it seems like we've been pursuing 3-4 pieces.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Aug 22, 2019 8:30:52 GMT -5
I have been one of the guys beating the drum for a switch to the 3-4 defensive front and now that we are running a 3-4 defense I'm now able to see if i really prefer running a 3-4 scheme. What I expected is that we would now be focused on more athletic edge/lb's and get faster as a team on defense where we would have more versatility in covering TE's and RB's. That was my main reason, I knew a 3-4 defense would force us to draft good LB's...... The thing is, with gettleman liking hog mollies in the trenches, his GM style is better suited towards finding players for a 4-3 defense. I do like the fact that guy like Lorenzo Carter and Xman, got drafted as they would not have been drafted for a 4-3 scheme IMO. Another reason I liked the 3-4 defense is because I felt that with all the spread offenses in college, guys were coming out undersized and better suited for a 3-4, which in my opinion, is best against spread offense which are starting to appear in the NFL because of this pass happy league. So two years in, are you happy with the 3-4 switch or do you miss the 4-3 defense? I personally have no preference in a 3-4 or a 4-3 defense. We still need to acquire more 3-4 personnel. We went with the QB when Josh Allen was sitting there for us. We bypassed the gift from heaven falling to us which would have been a juggernaut for the 3-4 defense.
Instead we chose the future. Not necessarily wrong but the defense still needs was setback at least another year. Even though we did improve the defense in leaps and bounds. it could have been great this season. We need to improve this pass rush desperately. Last year next to last in sacks with 30. Next year complete emphasis on defense draft and FA. Make this unit the best in football.
The D should be a lot better than last year. Last year first year in 3-4 a lot of growing pains. This year the personnel fits better and half of the starters are in their 2nd year under Bettcher in this defense. Should show improvement. No more losing 7 games with leads going into 4th qtr.
Not enough time to see the best this unit has to offer. IMHO it should take 3-4 years (were only in our 2nd) to switch over and maximize the strength in speed and coverage
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Aug 22, 2019 8:33:11 GMT -5
Skipped most of the posts sorry. I look forward to seeing what we do with a $LB this year. Who is that ?
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Aug 22, 2019 8:39:04 GMT -5
If, Belicheck was coaching our existing defense personnel. Would , we perform better or the same ? If, better,what does it say bout Bettcher. He's not as good as Belichick ?
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Post by dannydimes8 on Aug 22, 2019 8:43:01 GMT -5
We are still 1 year in and I have no preference it’s about the personnel not the scheme. Whether you run a 3-4 or a 4-3 you need to generate pressure, be able to cover, be stout at the point of attack, and be able to tackle. Our D under Bettcher has been bad to date. Hopefully consistent improvement is evident from 18 to 19 and game 1 to game 16 this year. Good players need to emerge. Peppers. Ogletree. Hill. Carter. Lawrence. Baker. Beal. Carpenter. Omines. Those are all names who could be here quite awhile if they can play. Need done diamonds to emerge and then can use the cap money to fill where we are lacking.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 9:23:07 GMT -5
We don’t really run a “3-4 Defense” nor does such a thing really even exist anymore in the NFL. At least not in the sense most people think.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 22, 2019 9:23:25 GMT -5
Skipped most of the posts sorry. I look forward to seeing what we do with a $LB this year. Who is that ? Right now it is Tae Davis followed by Connelly on the depth chart. I didn't think Tae was very good last year but I also think he is probably well suited for this $LB role. We will see.
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Post by Blue Hulk on Aug 22, 2019 9:45:56 GMT -5
We don’t really run a “3-4 Defense” nor does such a thing really even exist anymore in the NFL. At least not in the sense most people think. It's a hybrid 3-4. I think in a pass crazy league, the days of big hulking DE/EDGE rushers are over. I feel the 3-4 personnel is faster and you would never see JPP drop into coverage. Teams would nickle and dime us all day in the flats.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Aug 22, 2019 9:48:32 GMT -5
I think this question is probably more irrelevant now than it has ever been since defense's are really in their nickle and sub packages on most snaps now anyway.
I don't think either system is, in itself, superior to the other. I think it's more of what system is best for the players on the field and for how a particular DC likes to attack the QB.
The only edge I would give to the 3-4 is in the ability to disguise blitzes because you naturally have 4 players standing up at the LOS, each of whom has some coverage responsibilities in their roles, whereas with a 4-3 an exotic blitz may have a DE or DT dropping into coverage which they generally don't do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 9:54:33 GMT -5
We havent even begun to be able to make that assessment yet. this team is still building, still learning, and its only been one year?
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 22, 2019 10:05:19 GMT -5
We don’t really run a “3-4 Defense” nor does such a thing really even exist anymore in the NFL. At least not in the sense most people think. It's a hybrid 3-4. I think in a pass crazy league, the days of big hulking DE/EDGE rushers are over. I feel the 3-4 personnel is faster and you would never see JPP drop into coverage. Teams would nickle and dime us all day in the flats. This is why I am happy to see the $LB role implemented. That essentially makes use a 3-3-5 defense. The $LB is a light LB or heavy DB and gives us a lot of versatility.
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Post by Blue Hulk on Aug 22, 2019 10:57:43 GMT -5
Landon Collins was a money backer parading as a SS.
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 22, 2019 12:05:16 GMT -5
I think most know that today's defense has changed as the league is much more pass-happy. So we all know that we will see multiple looks from our defense. But at the same time; our base defense is in fact a 3-4 as our depth chart confirms.
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Post by hadenough on Aug 22, 2019 12:11:35 GMT -5
I've always liked the 3-4...I like the type of LBs you can utilize. Even though the Giants have put zero emphasis on LBers the previous 10 years.
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Post by giantlegacy on Aug 22, 2019 12:16:00 GMT -5
I think most know that today's defense has changed as the league is much more pass-happy. So we all know that we will see multiple looks from our defense. But at the same time; our base defense is in fact a 3-4 as our depth chart confirms.
And might even evolve more as the league is actually going the college route offense wise as a reaction to the types of players that are coming out on both sided of the ball... I can see some form of a 3-3-5 with a moneybacker being considered secondary as a bunch of team's base defenses and the moneybacker guy basicly being a roving freelance type of defender(like Peppers might be)
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Post by GameTime on Aug 22, 2019 12:25:34 GMT -5
I think most know that today's defense has changed as the league is much more pass-happy. So we all know that we will see multiple looks from our defense. But at the same time; our base defense is in fact a 3-4 as our depth chart confirms.
And might even evolve more as the league is actually going the college route offense wise as a reaction to the types of players that are coming out on both sided of the ball... I can see some form of a 3-3-5 with a moneybacker being considered secondary as a bunch of team's base defenses and the moneybacker guy basicly being a roving freelance type of defender(like Peppers might be) most college defense suck in underneath pass coverage especially........I hope they dont go that route...
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Post by nygiantsfan1029 on Aug 22, 2019 13:12:26 GMT -5
I don’t care either way as long as it works. It all comes down to the players . If you have the right players for the scheme it will work if not then it won’t.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 15:37:21 GMT -5
I think most know that today's defense has changed as the league is much more pass-happy. So we all know that we will see multiple looks from our defense. But at the same time; our base defense is in fact a 3-4 as our depth chart confirms.
Is it really your base defence when you do not use that personnel combination on even half of your snaps?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 15:39:32 GMT -5
I think most know that today's defense has changed as the league is much more pass-happy. So we all know that we will see multiple looks from our defense. But at the same time; our base defense is in fact a 3-4 as our depth chart confirms.
Is it really your base defence when you do not use that personnel combination on even half of your snaps? Also even in that personnel combination the responsibilities and players are nothing like a Parcells 3-4 from the 80s. Even our “3 down linemen” are not 2-gapping. Snacks Harrison was the epitome of an old school 3-4 2 gapping NT. The Giants traded him in part because that’s not a required fit for Bettchers system. This is a attacking, penetrating defence
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Post by Blue Hulk on Aug 22, 2019 16:29:40 GMT -5
Spags was using a money backer with Dion Buchanon, but it was a 3 safety set.I prefer that to a "money backer" because coverage comes more naturally.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 19:07:02 GMT -5
There is virtually no difference to the formation and how individual players are used Giants fans still stuck in the 80sParcels 3-4 hasn’t been used in quite some time.
While you seem stuck on being wrong.
There is absolutely a difference with OLB's in coverage vs DL's in coverage, just as there's a difference in playing the run using in these different alignments. Our “OLBs” are rushing the passer as much as our DEs were in a 4-3. Can you tell me why? I bet you can’t.
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 22, 2019 19:44:04 GMT -5
While you seem stuck on being wrong.
There is absolutely a difference with OLB's in coverage vs DL's in coverage, just as there's a difference in playing the run using in these different alignments. Our “OLBs” are rushing the passer as much as our DEs were in a 4-3. Can you tell me why? I bet you can’t.
I bet you can't even show proof of what you claim.
But if you can, at least make it interesting and tell me what you would like to wager.
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redeyejedi
Special Teams
Draftbreakdown.com the poster formerly and still is known as Redeyejedi
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Post by redeyejedi on Aug 23, 2019 6:33:29 GMT -5
I think most know that today's defense has changed as the league is much more pass-happy. So we all know that we will see multiple looks from our defense. But at the same time; our base defense is in fact a 3-4 as our depth chart confirms.
God our LB's are awful. When you lay it out like this it really hits home. Couldn't fix everything in 2 off-seasons but I hope next year we add a top tier pass rusher.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 10:32:10 GMT -5
Our “OLBs” are rushing the passer as much as our DEs were in a 4-3. Can you tell me why? I bet you can’t.
I bet you can't even show proof of what you claim.
But if you can, at least make it interesting and tell me what you would like to wager.
Of course I can. But you don’t even understand that the difference between a base 3-4 and a 4-3 in today’s age is virtually meaningless. It come a from a lack of understanding football fundamentals. But I already knew that. No point in wasting my time.
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 23, 2019 13:27:02 GMT -5
I bet you can't even show proof of what you claim.
But if you can, at least make it interesting and tell me what you would like to wager.
Of course I can. But you don’t even understand that the difference between a base 3-4 and a 4-3 in today’s age is virtually meaningless. It come a from a lack of understanding football fundamentals. But I already knew that. No point in wasting my time.
I expected you wouldn't. You do have a history of arguing your position without the ability to support it with facts.
But since we live in a age where there's an abundance of information at our fingertips, let me just ask you a simple question. If the alignment is "virtually meaningless", why do teams feel it necessary to specify one over the other?
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Post by DandyDon on Aug 23, 2019 14:30:49 GMT -5
Of course I can. But you don’t even understand that the difference between a base 3-4 and a 4-3 in today’s age is virtually meaningless. It come a from a lack of understanding football fundamentals. But I already knew that. No point in wasting my time.
I expected you wouldn't. You do have a history of arguing your position without the ability to support it with facts.
But since we live in a age where there's an abundance of information at our fingertips, let me just ask you a simple question. If the alignment is "virtually meaningless", why do teams feel it necessary to specify one over the other?
Better yet, why do they pick different players?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 19:04:49 GMT -5
Of course I can. But you don’t even understand that the difference between a base 3-4 and a 4-3 in today’s age is virtually meaningless. It come a from a lack of understanding football fundamentals. But I already knew that. No point in wasting my time. I expected you wouldn't. You do have a history of arguing your position without the ability to support it with facts.
But since we live in a age where there's an abundance of information at our fingertips, let me just ask you a simple question. If the alignment is "virtually meaningless", why do teams feel it necessary to specify one over the other?
It’s a shame YAtitle is no longer here. For that matter, even NYCsportsfan. He was crazy but he understood gap responsibility and DL gap techs. All we have here is a bunch of fan boys. Don’t have time to explain fundamental football in today’s game to you. Sorry
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 23, 2019 19:15:14 GMT -5
I expected you wouldn't. You do have a history of arguing your position without the ability to support it with facts.
But since we live in a age where there's an abundance of information at our fingertips, let me just ask you a simple question. If the alignment is "virtually meaningless", why do teams feel it necessary to specify one over the other?
It’s a shame YAtitle is no longer here. For that matter, even NYCsportsfan. He was crazy but he understood gap responsibility and DL gap techs. All we have here is a bunch of fan boys. Don’t have time to explain fundamental football in today’s game to you. Sorry Slink, you must.
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