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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 13:54:10 GMT -5
And again you are incorrect with this comment due to having to payoff the prorated signing bonuses especially Beckham's which is totally on Getty. Maybe 2nd time is the charm..lol You're greatly over estimated the amount of cap space this team would have still had if we had kept OBJ on the books, and especially overestimating the ability of the team to sign "veteran depth" with that cap space considering OBJ turned into three current players all on cheap contracts who would be on the roster today, and thus, whose spots would have had to have been filled with what would have likely been older, less effective players. I remember it wasn't too long ago people were complaining about the team constantly patching holes with nominal veteran players and having young players rot on the bench. The new GM takes the actions necessary to reserve that course and people are now complaining we don't have enough nominal veteran players to fill out the roster. I feel your numbers are off and these comments are false.. We will have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 15, 2019 14:05:37 GMT -5
I never said that I believed Dave mismanaged anything. What I did say is that we have $40MM in dead cap money and the precludes us from filling out our roster with veteran depth. That is simply objectively true.
A point you seem to agree with, yet still want to fight over.
From your original post --- "But he has played Russian Roulette with our future by paying a bunch of guys a lot of money NOT to play for us. He banked on a long shot for the 2019 Giants....and seems to have lost. Another wasted season.
That is why we have NO depth. That is why when OUR guys get hurt, the team falls apart. We are fielding a glorified college team if we can't stay healthy...and what NFL team ever stays healthy? "
You, literally, said the 2019 disaster is on Dave Gettleman. That sounds a whole lot like claiming mismanagement to me and you now seem to be trying to backtrack on your subjective opinion that had some objective facts that you used to support your opinion. And again, you're claiming we would have money to spend on veteran depth if not for the dead cap space. I disagree, because, the reason we have dead cap space is because we shed bad contracts. If we had kept those contracts (the only other option to DG), we still would not have had cap space to sign anyone this year. So, in other words, you're complaining about us not being able to sign veteran depth that we never would have been able to sign, regardless of how DG handled the cap this past offseason, other than restructuring of these bad contracts from JR. 2019?...Yes. In the long run?.....To be determined.
As I said, if we come out and have a great season next year with new guys we can actually afford, then all is well.
I am simply stating the fact that $40MM in dead cap money handcuffs our ability to fill our roster properly.
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Post by Roswell on Oct 15, 2019 14:18:36 GMT -5
From your original post --- "But he has played Russian Roulette with our future by paying a bunch of guys a lot of money NOT to play for us. He banked on a long shot for the 2019 Giants....and seems to have lost. Another wasted season.
That is why we have NO depth. That is why when OUR guys get hurt, the team falls apart. We are fielding a glorified college team if we can't stay healthy...and what NFL team ever stays healthy? "
You, literally, said the 2019 disaster is on Dave Gettleman. That sounds a whole lot like claiming mismanagement to me and you now seem to be trying to backtrack on your subjective opinion that had some objective facts that you used to support your opinion. And again, you're claiming we would have money to spend on veteran depth if not for the dead cap space. I disagree, because, the reason we have dead cap space is because we shed bad contracts. If we had kept those contracts (the only other option to DG), we still would not have had cap space to sign anyone this year. So, in other words, you're complaining about us not being able to sign veteran depth that we never would have been able to sign, regardless of how DG handled the cap this past offseason, other than restructuring of these bad contracts from JR. 2019?...Yes. In the long run?.....To be determined.
As I said, if we come out and have a great season next year with new guys we can actually afford, then all is well.
I am simply stating the fact that $40MM in dead cap money handcuffs our ability to fill our roster properly.
And in so doing, you are completely ignoring context.
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Post by jmike on Oct 15, 2019 14:20:03 GMT -5
not all the bad contracts were JR's. Most of the dead cap money is for OBJ and that is all on DG and Mara. I find it impossible to believe that DG had anything to do with signing Beckham to a $90m contract other than saying, “Yes, Mr Mara.” Additionally, when it came time to cut bait on that joker, again, it was “Yes, Mr. Mara. I will find a willing trade partner, Mr. Mara.” End of story. No GM signs (or trades and eats money) any player to $90m on a hands on owner’s team without it being the owner’s idea or without the owner’s say so. Not happening, especially on the Giants. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know and am unwilling to guess who made the call. Maybe it was Mara that wanted him signed and after the season DG got his way in an "I told you so" kind of way. Truly don't know, don't care. What happened, happened; but no matter how you twisted it the big contract and big cap number related to the wayward WR is 100% on the current team management. DG stands in the GM position, he can take the lumps whether he was following orders or not.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 15, 2019 14:47:08 GMT -5
2019?...Yes. In the long run?.....To be determined.
As I said, if we come out and have a great season next year with new guys we can actually afford, then all is well.
I am simply stating the fact that $40MM in dead cap money handcuffs our ability to fill our roster properly.
And in so doing, you are completely ignoring context. Every team has dead cap money. No team comes close to ours. The big difference is the signing of Odell Beckham to a huge deal and then trading him. That put $16MM on our dead cap amount. Add Omameh and that's another $3MM. The "context" is that those two moves are exclusively on the current regime. If you want to blame John Mara that's fine. Seems odd but go for it.
But the GM IS the guy who makes those choices.
All that is fine if you think it's a good plan for the future. But it DOES compromise our chances THIS season.....Which has been my point all along.
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Post by jmike on Oct 15, 2019 14:52:25 GMT -5
And in so doing, you are completely ignoring context. Every team has dead cap money. No team comes close to ours. The big difference is the signing of Odell Beckham to a huge deal and then trading him. That put $16MM on our dead cap amount. Add Omameh and that's another $3MM. The "context" is that those two moves are exclusively on the current regime. If you want to blame John Mara that's fine. Seems odd but go for it.
But the GM IS the guy who makes those choices.
All that is fine if you think it's a good plan for the future. But it DOES compromise our chances THIS season.....Which has been my point all along.
I don't think it does. The value of removing a headache like OBJ, who's increasingly detrimental attitude likely would have sunk this team, is greater than what he and any fringe vets the money savings would have added to this team. I didn't see what an anchor on this team he was until he left. The next step was to move on from Eli. The two combined really sucked the hope from this team. And I love Eli, but this team had no future with him. It also had no future with OBJ.
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Post by Sarcasman on Oct 15, 2019 15:09:27 GMT -5
This year was a lost cause so the dead cap hit doesn't matter at all. The reason we suck is because of roughly a decade of bad drafting. The guys in the lab coats disagree. They think we could easily be 1/2 to a full game better this year if we had just listened to them.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 15, 2019 15:15:59 GMT -5
Every team has dead cap money. No team comes close to ours. The big difference is the signing of Odell Beckham to a huge deal and then trading him. That put $16MM on our dead cap amount. Add Omameh and that's another $3MM. The "context" is that those two moves are exclusively on the current regime. If you want to blame John Mara that's fine. Seems odd but go for it.
But the GM IS the guy who makes those choices.
All that is fine if you think it's a good plan for the future. But it DOES compromise our chances THIS season.....Which has been my point all along.
I don't think it does. The value of removing a headache like OBJ, who's increasingly detrimental attitude likely would have sunk this team, is greater than what he and any fringe vets the money savings would have added to this team. I didn't see what an anchor on this team he was until he left. The next step was to move on from Eli. The two combined really sucked the hope from this team. And I love Eli, but this team had no future with him. It also had no future with OBJ. All this makes good sense.....but for one problem. They signed Odell Beckham to the largest contract in NFL WR history less than a year before.
And I agree on Eli except for one (more) problem...... They could have not picked up his roster bonus in March which would have made Eli a free agent with minimal cap consequence in 2019.
The new regime decided to sign Odell and keep Eli. That's over $30MM for guys not playing for us.
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Post by jmike on Oct 15, 2019 15:21:04 GMT -5
I don't think it does. The value of removing a headache like OBJ, who's increasingly detrimental attitude likely would have sunk this team, is greater than what he and any fringe vets the money savings would have added to this team. I didn't see what an anchor on this team he was until he left. The next step was to move on from Eli. The two combined really sucked the hope from this team. And I love Eli, but this team had no future with him. It also had no future with OBJ. All this makes good sense.....but for one problem. They signed Odell Beckham to the largest contract in NFL WR history less than a year before.
And I agree on Eli except for one (more) problem...... They could have not picked up his roster bonus in March which would have made Eli a free agent with minimal cap consequence in 2019.
The new regime decided to sign Odell and keep Eli. That's over $30MM for guys not playing for us.
I don't understand what you are saying. The Giants made a bad decision in signing OBJ to a long term contract, then made a good decision in trading him away despite the dead money hit. Do you think the should have kept him on to anchor this team for years after they recognized the original mistake? That is like deciding to buy the wrong sized rounds for your gun, then deciding to jam them in there anyway after you discovered it. What do you think is going to happen then? Should just give the rounds to someone who wants them, eat the cost and get new rounds that fit.
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Post by Roswell on Oct 15, 2019 15:34:05 GMT -5
And in so doing, you are completely ignoring context. Every team has dead cap money. No team comes close to ours. The big difference is the signing of Odell Beckham to a huge deal and then trading him. That put $16MM on our dead cap amount. Add Omameh and that's another $3MM. The "context" is that those two moves are exclusively on the current regime. If you want to blame John Mara that's fine. Seems odd but go for it.
But the GM IS the guy who makes those choices.
All that is fine if you think it's a good plan for the future. But it DOES compromise our chances THIS season.....Which has been my point all along.
And truthfully, the only way to look at it is that they ripped the bandaid off and bit the bullet this season to put them in a better position for next year. It’s all about next year. That’s why rebuilds and overhauls take a few years. The Giants are in year 2 of a 4 or 5 year overhaul.
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Post by Fletch842 on Oct 15, 2019 16:32:03 GMT -5
I don't think it does. The value of removing a headache like OBJ, who's increasingly detrimental attitude likely would have sunk this team, is greater than what he and any fringe vets the money savings would have added to this team. I didn't see what an anchor on this team he was until he left. The next step was to move on from Eli. The two combined really sucked the hope from this team. And I love Eli, but this team had no future with him. It also had no future with OBJ. All this makes good sense.....but for one problem. They signed Odell Beckham to the largest contract in NFL WR history less than a year before.
And I agree on Eli except for one (more) problem...... They could have not picked up his roster bonus in March which would have made Eli a free agent with minimal cap consequence in 2019.
The new regime decided to sign Odell and keep Eli. That's over $30MM for guys not playing for us.
I think they figured that after signing him to the record contract, that he might be at least slightly appreciative. Instead, he dissed the team in his first national interview after signing it. I think that was a kick in the nuts to the FO and ownership.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 15, 2019 16:43:42 GMT -5
All this makes good sense.....but for one problem. They signed Odell Beckham to the largest contract in NFL WR history less than a year before.
And I agree on Eli except for one (more) problem...... They could have not picked up his roster bonus in March which would have made Eli a free agent with minimal cap consequence in 2019.
The new regime decided to sign Odell and keep Eli. That's over $30MM for guys not playing for us.
I don't understand what you are saying. The Giants made a bad decision in signing OBJ to a long term contract, then made a good decision in trading him away despite the dead money hit. Do you think the should have kept him on to anchor this team for years after they recognized the original mistake? That is like deciding to buy the wrong sized rounds for your gun, then deciding to jam them in there anyway after you discovered it. What do you think is going to happen then? Should just give the rounds to someone who wants them, eat the cost and get new rounds that fit. Hard to make the case that paying a guy well over $30MM for 12 games is a good decision. THAT decision was made when they traded him.
Looking to trade him next season?...Or the one after that? OK that makes sense.
I think a "headache" is worth enduring once in a while....when the alternative is that kind of waste.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 15, 2019 16:44:37 GMT -5
All this makes good sense.....but for one problem. They signed Odell Beckham to the largest contract in NFL WR history less than a year before.
And I agree on Eli except for one (more) problem...... They could have not picked up his roster bonus in March which would have made Eli a free agent with minimal cap consequence in 2019.
The new regime decided to sign Odell and keep Eli. That's over $30MM for guys not playing for us.
I think they figured that after signing him to the record contract, that he might be at least slightly appreciative. Instead, he dissed the team in his first national interview after signing it. I think that was a kick in the nuts to the FO and ownership. Appreciative? Pro athletes?
I expect him to then go play hard and play well. Which he did.
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Post by trentongiantsfan83 on Oct 15, 2019 16:53:03 GMT -5
You guys will be super pissed if OBJ goes to the Eagles...….I do not want to happen at all. Why because the Browns are thinking of trading him.
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Post by DandyDon on Oct 15, 2019 18:23:01 GMT -5
You guys will be super pissed if OBJ goes to the Eagles...….I do not want to happen at all. Why because the Browns are thinking of trading him.No, they're not. They went out of their way to call that rumor wrong.
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Post by Delicreep on Oct 15, 2019 20:23:45 GMT -5
I don't understand what you are saying. The Giants made a bad decision in signing OBJ to a long term contract, then made a good decision in trading him away despite the dead money hit. Do you think the should have kept him on to anchor this team for years after they recognized the original mistake? That is like deciding to buy the wrong sized rounds for your gun, then deciding to jam them in there anyway after you discovered it. What do you think is going to happen then? Should just give the rounds to someone who wants them, eat the cost and get new rounds that fit. Hard to make the case that paying a guy well over $30MM for 12 games is a good decision. THAT decision was made when they traded him.
Looking to trade him next season?...Or the one after that? OK that makes sense.
I think a "headache" is worth enduring once in a while....when the alternative is that kind of waste.
Now we are getting somewhere! The philosophical question of whether it's better to rip the band aid off or work it off slowly....with one tiny twist: OBJ get's hurt and his trade value drops, potentially to zero. You have to factor that in.
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Post by Delicreep on Oct 15, 2019 20:25:41 GMT -5
I think they figured that after signing him to the record contract, that he might be at least slightly appreciative. Instead, he dissed the team in his first national interview after signing it. I think that was a kick in the nuts to the FO and ownership. Appreciative? Pro athletes?
I expect him to then go play hard and play well. Which he did.
C'mon now...you sign a guy to the biggest contract ever, you certainly are not looking for him to say he's ambivalent about playing for your team. That is a slap in the face.
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Post by Roswell on Oct 15, 2019 20:44:39 GMT -5
I think they figured that after signing him to the record contract, that he might be at least slightly appreciative. Instead, he dissed the team in his first national interview after signing it. I think that was a kick in the nuts to the FO and ownership. Appreciative? Pro athletes?
I expect him to then go play hard and play well. Which he did.
It wouldn’t surprise me if they wanted Beckham as far away from Jones as they could get him.
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Post by Blue Hulk on Oct 15, 2019 20:56:07 GMT -5
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Post by Fletch842 on Oct 16, 2019 5:55:01 GMT -5
Appreciative? Pro athletes?
I expect him to then go play hard and play well. Which he did.
C'mon now...you sign a guy to the biggest contract ever, you certainly are not looking for him to say he's ambivalent about playing for your team. That is a slap in the face. So appreciative might not have been the best term, but after getting paid like that to insult the team on his first national interview was simply wrong, athlete or not.
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Post by jmike on Oct 16, 2019 7:50:06 GMT -5
I don't understand what you are saying. The Giants made a bad decision in signing OBJ to a long term contract, then made a good decision in trading him away despite the dead money hit. Do you think the should have kept him on to anchor this team for years after they recognized the original mistake? That is like deciding to buy the wrong sized rounds for your gun, then deciding to jam them in there anyway after you discovered it. What do you think is going to happen then? Should just give the rounds to someone who wants them, eat the cost and get new rounds that fit. Hard to make the case that paying a guy well over $30MM for 12 games is a good decision. THAT decision was made when they traded him.
Looking to trade him next season?...Or the one after that? OK that makes sense.
I think a "headache" is worth enduring once in a while....when the alternative is that kind of waste.
On this we will disagree. I am of the opinion that once it is determined that a mistake was made, rectifying it quickly is best. The short term consequences are most often better to deal with than living with the error too long.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 7:52:56 GMT -5
Hard to make the case that paying a guy well over $30MM for 12 games is a good decision. THAT decision was made when they traded him.
Looking to trade him next season?...Or the one after that? OK that makes sense.
I think a "headache" is worth enduring once in a while....when the alternative is that kind of waste.
On this we will disagree. I am of the opinion that once it is determined that a mistake was made, rectifying it quickly is best. The short term consequences are most often better to deal with than living with the error too long. That is so true but it does make the original decision look real bad...
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Post by jmike on Oct 16, 2019 8:12:10 GMT -5
On this we will disagree. I am of the opinion that once it is determined that a mistake was made, rectifying it quickly is best. The short term consequences are most often better to deal with than living with the error too long. That is so true but it does make the original decision look real bad... Bad decisions are made. And DG is rightly criticized for them. Perpetuating the bad decision by not doing what you can to correct it as quickly as possible is much much worse IMO.
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Post by Fletch842 on Oct 16, 2019 8:56:15 GMT -5
That is so true but it does make the original decision look real bad... Bad decisions are made. And DG is rightly criticized for them. Perpetuating the bad decision by not doing what you can to correct it as quickly as possible is much much worse IMO. Its hard to re-write history, but had be we not resigned him, we may have just let him walk this year, which would have resulted in a 3rd round comp pick and no dead $$'s. Would we have been able to sign a free agent for the dead money that is better than Peppers and Lawrence? To me its not as straight forward as you would think at a glance.
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Post by jmike on Oct 16, 2019 9:59:25 GMT -5
Bad decisions are made. And DG is rightly criticized for them. Perpetuating the bad decision by not doing what you can to correct it as quickly as possible is much much worse IMO. Its hard to re-write history, but had be we not resigned him, we may have just let him walk this year, which would have resulted in a 3rd round comp pick and no dead $$'s. Would we have been able to sign a free agent for the dead money that is better than Peppers and Lawrence? To me its not as straight forward as you would think at a glance. I cannot disagree with any of that. In the end, signing him and trading him may have been the best possible move if we were going to move on without him. I cannot say enough how happy and excited I was that we were able to draft Big Law and still get our future QB. He is one heck of a DL and seems to be getting better every game. Who knows what would have happened had they not signed OBJ and let him walk. What did happen was overall positive, but the dead money really hurts this season.
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Post by DandyDon on Oct 16, 2019 10:24:08 GMT -5
To me, the best way to look at it is we basically spent the OBJ money we ate on the players and picks we got from the Browns.
So the question is, were the players worth the money? Might take awhile to answer that question.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 16, 2019 14:46:32 GMT -5
To me, the best way to look at it is we basically spent the OBJ money we ate on the players and picks we got from the Browns. So the question is, were the players worth the money? Might take awhile to answer that question. After seeing Odell's season so far, yes I think it's been worth it. I've watched a lot of Browns football this year (well most of us have since they are on TV all the time) and I think Odell looks great out there. He's suffering from a similar problem as he had last year. They just can't get the ball to him. The Cleveland O line is dreadful and Mayfield is getting spooked. Still a young QB I guess and he'll probably out grow that but we'll see.
I still think he's the most uncoverable WR in the league.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 16, 2019 15:19:38 GMT -5
I've watched a lot of Browns football this year (well most of us have since they are on TV all the time) and I think Odell looks great out there. He's suffering from a similar problem as he had last year. They just can't get the ball to him. The Cleveland O line is dreadful and Mayfield is getting spooked. Still a young QB I guess and he'll probably out grow that but we'll see.
I still think he's the most uncoverable WR in the league.
............not to change the subject but............how much snow do you have ? You had a nice storm about a week ago. Bozeman didn't get much. Just an inch...if that.
To answer your question, I just mowed my lawn and it's in the high 60-s.
It's an absolutely glorious day.
Here's a picture out my office window as I'm typing this.
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Post by jmike on Oct 16, 2019 15:26:29 GMT -5
After seeing Odell's season so far, yes I think it's been worth it. I've watched a lot of Browns football this year (well most of us have since they are on TV all the time) and I think Odell looks great out there. He's suffering from a similar problem as he had last year. They just can't get the ball to him. The Cleveland O line is dreadful and Mayfield is getting spooked. Still a young QB I guess and he'll probably out grow that but we'll see.
I still think he's the most uncoverable WR in the league.
Funny...different teams, different coaches, different systems, different QBs....but the same problems. Hmmmm....it does make one wonder if there is a commonality that links them all.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 16, 2019 15:28:00 GMT -5
I've watched a lot of Browns football this year (well most of us have since they are on TV all the time) and I think Odell looks great out there. He's suffering from a similar problem as he had last year. They just can't get the ball to him. The Cleveland O line is dreadful and Mayfield is getting spooked. Still a young QB I guess and he'll probably out grow that but we'll see.
I still think he's the most uncoverable WR in the league.
Funny...different teams, different coaches, different systems, different QBs....but the same problems. Hmmmm....it does make one wonder if there is a commonality that links them all. I agree. Bad O line.
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