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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 17, 2019 12:17:59 GMT -5
Drew Brees Tom Brady Aaron Rodgers Peyton Manning Im pretty sure this is most peoples top 4 QBs of the 2000s. I decided to dive into something that has bugged me for a while about labeling who is the GOAT. To me, its just to hard to label one player the GOAT or not. Winning is so much more of a team thing than almost any other sport (maybe outside of baseball). For example, if any of you guys saw Dan Marino play football, you would know he is one of the best to ever do it. Yet he never won the big game. Same with Jim Kelly. Then you have Trent Dilfers and Brad Johnson and Jim Plunkett... and Eli Manning. Defense is a huge part of winning championships. We all know this. I knew Tom Brady, who most consider the GOAT, has always had the benefit of a great defense throughout his 20 year career, but I never really looked at it from this point of view. A side by side comparison vs his peers, the other 3 great QBs of the same era. The chart pretty much shows exactly what I expected. Tom Brady has never won a SB without a top 8 defense. If you look at the chart, Brady in his entire career had an average of a 7.7 ranked defense while Drew Brees averaged 19.0, Aaron Rodgers averaged 15.1 and Peyton Manning averaged 14.7. That is a staggering difference, and a HUGE reason why Brady has had the Championship success while the others have not. Tom Brady is a great QB, HOFer no doubt, and I 100% applaud his motivation to be a great and to get better with age by his studying and development and even his diet. His drive is tremendous. Hell, the Patriots drive to be the best along with Bradys desire to be the best, has gotten them in trouble many times with cheating allegations. Get every edge you can. Legally or illegally. But I will not say he is the greatest QB I have ever seen. Ive seen better. Just not a better QB with a better surrounding cast or head coach. Brady has never had worse than a 17th ranked defense, and only 4 times had worse than 10th in his career! Its not guaranteed you win a SB with a great defense, as all 4 of these guys have lost with great defenses as well. One of the greats is as far as Ill go. Yellow are the Championships, Green the runner up. Could you imagine the SB victories Eli would have if he had the defense Brady has had throughout his career? What are your thoughts?
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 9:28:18 GMT -5
Crickets... Oh well I tried.
I'll change the thread title to something more click baity.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 18, 2019 10:56:57 GMT -5
Crickets... Oh well I tried. I'll change the thread title to something more click baity. He's better.
Bill was 5-13 with the Pats right up until Tom Brady's first start. Then immediately they went 14-3 and won the SB. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 11:06:08 GMT -5
Crickets... Oh well I tried. I'll change the thread title to something more click baity. He's better.
Bill was 5-13 with the Pats right up until Tom Brady's first start. Then immediately they went 14-3 and won the SB. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
Not this argument... And the last 20 games Brady missed (more relevant)? 14-6 Belichick was just getting started in NE his first year. Getting the right guys in there to turn them into what they became.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 18, 2019 11:16:26 GMT -5
He's better.
Bill was 5-13 with the Pats right up until Tom Brady's first start. Then immediately they went 14-3 and won the SB. I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
Not this argument... And the last 20 games Brady missed (more relevant)? 14-6 Belichick was just getting started in NE his first year. Getting the right guys in there to turn them into what they became. Bill is a very good coach. But he has never won without Brady. He HAS lost plenty without him though. He's essentially a defensive coach. His defenses with us were great. Most of his defenses in Nw England were very good. Some were bad. When they were bad....they still won.
So now Brady is as old as dirt and he's in decline, but he's the best QB of all time. He's a great leader, incredibly clutch passer, which has been true since day one. Yes...Tom is a jerkoff. So is Aaron Rodgers.....another all time great QB.
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Post by TCHOF on Dec 18, 2019 11:22:09 GMT -5
Dude ... you and QB’s ...woof
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 11:38:16 GMT -5
Not this argument... And the last 20 games Brady missed (more relevant)? 14-6 Belichick was just getting started in NE his first year. Getting the right guys in there to turn them into what they became. Bill is a very good coach. But he has never won without Brady. He HAS lost plenty without him though. He's essentially a defensive coach. His defenses with us were great. Most of his defenses in Nw England were very good. Some were bad. When they were bad....they still won.
So now Brady is as old as dirt and he's in decline, but he's the best QB of all time. He's a great leader, incredibly clutch passer, which has been true since day one. Yes...Tom is a jerkoff. So is Aaron Rodgers.....another all time great QB.
Ok. So back to the thread. Do you feel Tom Brady benefitted from having a top 10 defense most of his career? While others like Brees, Rodgers, Manning have not? Tom is a HOF great QB. But the reason people say his is the GOAT is the championships.
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Post by Waybackfan on Dec 18, 2019 12:00:11 GMT -5
Young man, I knew Tom Brady. You sir, are no Tom Brady.
Seriously, I'd say Brady benefited more from having an offensive line that gave him great protection.
When they didn't he sucked.
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DJones19
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Post by DJones19 on Dec 18, 2019 12:06:02 GMT -5
I rank Brady up there with George Washington, Abe Lincoln, Jesus.
Brady accepted a much lower salary for the benefit of the team which is one of the reasons why they have a good D this year. Not many players are willing to take one for the team like Brady.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 12:32:35 GMT -5
I rank Brady up there with George Washington, Abe Lincoln, Jesus. Brady accepted a much lower salary for the benefit of the team which is one of the reasons why they have a good D this year. Not many players are willing to take one for the team like Brady. Not many players own a company brand like TB12 while the team they play for pump marketing and revenue into allowing that player to accept a lower salary and still make money under the cap. They cheat everywhere.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 12:40:02 GMT -5
Young man, I knew Tom Brady. You sir, are no Tom Brady.
Seriously, I'd say Brady benefited more from having an offensive line that gave him great protection.
When they didn't he sucked.
Nah. Brady gets rid of the ball quickly to help his OL. I dont think Solder would be considered great at protecting him.
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DJones19
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Post by DJones19 on Dec 18, 2019 13:11:33 GMT -5
I rank Brady up there with George Washington, Abe Lincoln, Jesus. Brady accepted a much lower salary for the benefit of the team which is one of the reasons why they have a good D this year. Not many players are willing to take one for the team like Brady. Not many players own a company brand like TB12 while the team they play for pump marketing and revenue into allowing that player to accept a lower salary and still make money under the cap. They cheat everywhere. I look at it the from the other end. Brady did not come from much, was benched in college for a silver-spoon kid that had connections and a famous father. Brady is self made, adds to his legend in my opinion.
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Post by Waybackfan on Dec 18, 2019 13:48:55 GMT -5
Young man, I knew Tom Brady. You sir, are no Tom Brady.
Seriously, I'd say Brady benefited more from having an offensive line that gave him great protection.
When they didn't he sucked.
Nah. Brady gets rid of the ball quickly to help his OL. I dont think Solder would be considered great at protecting him. Didn't work in his two SB losses to Big Blue.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 18, 2019 13:49:50 GMT -5
Folks...The OP, while a fine American, HATES Tom Brady. He always has and he always will.
This thread is yet another example.
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Post by giantlegacy on Dec 18, 2019 13:53:18 GMT -5
Folks...The OP, while a fine American, HATES Tom Brady. He always has and he always will. This thread is yet another example. He may or may not have a slight jealousy issue
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Post by jimmieray on Dec 18, 2019 14:07:28 GMT -5
I rank Brady up there with George Washington, Abe Lincoln, Jesus. Brady accepted a much lower salary for the benefit of the team which is one of the reasons why they have a good D this year. Not many players are willing to take one for the team like Brady. Did Jesus get paid to be a carpenter? I've never really seen him depicted with a tool box, nor heard of any awesome shelving unit he built.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 14:17:48 GMT -5
You guys are funny.
No responses-views until I changed the thread title to get the clicks and comments. It's like kids being exploited at the grocery store by putting all the sugary candies and cereals low enough for them to see and demand.
Yes I hate Tom Brady because I think he is the 5th or 6th best QB to ever play the game instead of the GOAT.
I'm simply pointing out why I feel that way. Look at the chart. Instead of just falling over each other in a media hypnosis of Brady being the GOAT, think about it a bit more.
If he didnt have the SB rings, 6 of them, where would he be? If he didnt have a top 8 defense nearly every year, how many of those rings would he have?
It's a legit question.
Not even bring up the fact they get caught cheating over and over :-)
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 14:19:50 GMT -5
Folks...The OP, while a fine American, HATES Tom Brady. He always has and he always will. This thread is yet another example. He may or may not have a slight jealousy issue I'm jealous of Morehead actually. I hear Montana is great this time of year.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 18, 2019 14:23:30 GMT -5
He may or may not have a slight jealousy issue I'm jealous of Morehead actually. I hear Montana is great this time of year. You should be....It's awesome right now.
Oh and BTW. Last year they were the 21st ranked defense and are SB champs.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 14:26:18 GMT -5
I'm jealous of Morehead actually. I hear Montana is great this time of year. You should be....It's awesome right now. Well now that your here, why dont you tell me what you think about the threads topic instead of just saying I hate Brady? How much better would Eli's career be if he had on average a top 7-8 defense his entire career here?
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 14:28:42 GMT -5
I'm jealous of Morehead actually. I hear Montana is great this time of year. You should be....It's awesome right now.
Oh and BTW. Last year they were the 21st ranked defense and are SB champs.
Yeah, no they weren't. 7th in scoring defense. Look again.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 18, 2019 14:28:49 GMT -5
You should be....It's awesome right now. Well now that your here, why dont you tell me what you think about the threads topic instead of just saying I hate Brady? How much better would Eli's career be if he had on average a top 7-8 defense his entire career here? Ranked 21st in defense last year.....SB champs Ranked 20th in defense in 2014......SB champs.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 14:29:42 GMT -5
Well now that your here, why dont you tell me what you think about the threads topic instead of just saying I hate Brady? How much better would Eli's career be if he had on average a top 7-8 defense his entire career here? Ranked 21st in defense last year.....SB champs Ranked 20th in defense in 2014......SB champs.
I think you are googling wrong. Oh never mind. You are looking at yards I'm guessing. Yeah, games are won by points.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 18, 2019 14:31:29 GMT -5
You should be....It's awesome right now.
Oh and BTW. Last year they were the 21st ranked defense and are SB champs.
Yeah, no they weren't. 7th in scoring defense. Look again. Scoring defense? Really? They never turn it over so teams always have to go the long field.
Stop it. The Giants had the top "scoring offense" in the NFC east last year. Did that look like a good offense to you?
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 18, 2019 14:32:24 GMT -5
Ranked 21st in defense last year.....SB champs Ranked 20th in defense in 2014......SB champs.
I think you are googling wrong. Oh never mind. You are looking at yards I'm guessing. Yeah, games are won by points. No credible NFL source uses that as a measure. It's always yards.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 14:40:23 GMT -5
I think you are googling wrong. Oh never mind. You are looking at yards I'm guessing. Yeah, games are won by points. No credible NFL source uses that as a measure. It's always yards. Ridiculous. If you cant admit that having the 7th-8th ranked scoring defense is a huge advantage over having the 19th or 14th or 15th ranked scoring defense over a 20 year period, I got nothing more for you.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 18, 2019 17:17:19 GMT -5
No credible NFL source uses that as a measure. It's always yards. Ridiculous. If you cant admit that having the 7th-8th ranked scoring defense is a huge advantage over having the 19th or 14th or 15th ranked scoring defense over a 20 year period, I got nothing more for you. You're full of rage during s time of year where we should wish for peace on earth.
I want you to be happy so this hurts my heart.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2019 17:22:36 GMT -5
Ridiculous. If you cant admit that having the 7th-8th ranked scoring defense is a huge advantage over having the 19th or 14th or 15th ranked scoring defense over a 20 year period, I got nothing more for you. You're full of rage during s time of year where we should wish for peace on earth.
I want you to be happy so this hurts my heart.
See. Cant answer it. But Hey I'm good. We just got Cole! Next season is going to be another great baseball season we can talk Yanks-Sox. Oh wait, you dont show when the Sox aren't winning... I forgot. Silly me. Maybe Santa gets you a Cole jersey. Lol
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 18, 2019 17:33:27 GMT -5
You're full of rage during s time of year where we should wish for peace on earth.
I want you to be happy so this hurts my heart.
See. Cant answer it. But Hey I'm good. We just got Cole! Next season is going to be another great baseball season we can talk Yanks-Sox. Oh wait, you dont show when the Sox aren't winning... I forgot. Silly me. Maybe Santa gets you a Cole jersey. Lol Pet peeve....Did you really "laugh out loud?"
I doubt it. I doubt you even chuckled. (But I hope you did given the holiday season thing I mentioned)
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Post by IrishMike on Dec 21, 2019 20:04:24 GMT -5
The problem with any GOAT discussion is that people hardly ever state what exactly they are judging. When you say GOAT do you mean simply the best player (QB) you have seen? Or do you mean "most accomplished"? See IMO when I hear GOAT I think the best, not the most accomplished. Every single time people mention TB in the GOAT talk they say "he won 6 Super Bowls" and I reply with the stats you presented here of him always having a top D to win those games.
I think Peyton Manning is the best QB I have ever seen play football. I think if you replace any QB ever with Peyton the team would not do worse. Joe Montana would be there and Dan Marino as well. I would honestly take Drew Brees at his best over Tom Brady at his best. Is TB top 10 all time? Yeah I would say so, the guy was crazy good; just not as good as some others.
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