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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jan 18, 2020 14:57:14 GMT -5
I don't care he runs a 1-10 defense as long as it can get off the field. Don't laugh he lined up a few times with one down linemen in Miami lots of LBs and tweeters on the field.
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jay051
Special Teams
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Post by jay051 on Jan 18, 2020 15:28:06 GMT -5
That's why for me it's Simmons or trade out of 4. For C I think we need Creed Humphrey or Biadasz. One should be there in round 2. For OT we have a bunch of options. We will know more from Free Agency. If we can sign Conklin from the Titans, draft Simmons in 1, and a center in 2 we would be much better off. If we don't sign Conklin, then it's OT in 1 or 2 and either lose out on Simmons or the Center.
In the past DG has tried to fill holes in free agency so we aren't stuck targeting positions in the draft. With any luck he fills at least 1 OL position and an edge (DE or LB) at a minimum in free agency.
The question is, is there an OT that is worth the 4th pick? Not many college OL are ready to play day 1 (see Eric Flowers). I'd rather use it on LB/DE and if not trade back if possible like you indicate. Flowers seemed more like an experiment pick. He played rt in college and they drafted him to be our future franchise LT which made no sense to me at that time.
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giantsalmon
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Post by giantsalmon on Jan 18, 2020 16:43:31 GMT -5
I don't have a grasp of what FA Centers may be out there, but we have seen smart pick ups at Center lead to two different SB rings. With a young QB, and most likely a rookie Tackle, a vet Center would be a wise use of dollars. I think Halapio was a Shurmur guy and I agree with those that feel Pulley actually out played him.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 18, 2020 16:45:58 GMT -5
Lots of cans not to kick. RT, C, WR, pass rusher and LB are all major needs. My hope is for Conklin so we don't have to take a OT early. If we don't get a vet then OT must happen in round 1 or 2. How about sign Conklin,draft Thomas,make Soldier a June 1st cut... Find a C in a BPA way earliish... Line fixed How about sign Conklin, trade back to #6, gain an extra 2nd round pick, draft Simmons at #6 and Austin Jackson or another OT and the best Center in round 2
I doubt we cut Solder this year, costs too much. He is serviceable. We upgrade RT and hopefully C this year will go a long way. Oh and sign a good OL coach lol.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 18, 2020 16:48:09 GMT -5
Use an upgrade? Our Center last year was one of the worst in the NFL and he is injured for the season. We literally don't have a center lol. We have lots of needs and no telling how FA will go but IF we want a starting Center then round 2 is the right spot to get one. They said Halapio is expected back by camp and Pulley was signed to a 3 year contract last year. I’m just saying, we do have a Center. I think there are far more pressing needs in round 2. I think you can find a young Center in the later rounds. Fair enough. I'm just looking at value. I think there will be a starting C available for us round two. I also think OT and WR will have lots of value in round two. There are plenty of directions we can go.
I'm fine if we try Pulley but I am done with the Halp experiment.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jan 18, 2020 16:48:13 GMT -5
How about sign Conklin,draft Thomas,make Soldier a June 1st cut... Find a C in a BPA way earliish... Line fixed How about sign Conklin, trade back to #6, gain an extra 2nd round pick, draft Simmons at #6 and Austin Jackson or another OT and the best Center in round 2
I doubt we cut Solder this year, costs too much. He is serviceable. We upgrade RT and hopefully C this year will go a long way. Oh and sign a good OL coach lol.
Trade back and take Thomas is even better Then we have a chance at a top center,an actual legit new age linebacker instead of an athlete that is masquerading as a box safety,and a dynamic wideout
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Post by DandyDon on Jan 18, 2020 16:57:55 GMT -5
The question is, is there an OT that is worth the 4th pick? Not many college OL are ready to play day 1 (see Eric Flowers). I'd rather use it on LB/DE and if not trade back if possible like you indicate. Flowers seemed more like an experiment pick. He played rt in college and they drafted him to be our future franchise LT which made no sense to me at that time. If Beatty didn't get hurt preseason he would not have been forced to start year 1.
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jay051
Special Teams
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Post by jay051 on Jan 18, 2020 17:27:56 GMT -5
Flowers seemed more like an experiment pick. He played rt in college and they drafted him to be our future franchise LT which made no sense to me at that time. If Beatty didn't get hurt preseason he would not have been forced to start year 1. Yea I know that but still felt it was an experiment pick since he played rt in college. Regardless he was eventually replacing Beatty.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 18, 2020 18:12:08 GMT -5
That's why for me it's Simmons or trade out of 4. For C I think we need Creed Humphrey or Biadasz. One should be there in round 2. For OT we have a bunch of options. We will know more from Free Agency. If we can sign Conklin from the Titans, draft Simmons in 1, and a center in 2 we would be much better off. If we don't sign Conklin, then it's OT in 1 or 2 and either lose out on Simmons or the Center.
In the past DG has tried to fill holes in free agency so we aren't stuck targeting positions in the draft. With any luck he fills at least 1 OL position and an edge (DE or LB) at a minimum in free agency.
The question is, is there an OT that is worth the 4th pick? Not many college OL are ready to play day 1 (see Eric Flowers). I'd rather use it on LB/DE and if not trade back if possible like you indicate. Honestly I don't think any of them are "must have" guys. I think it's a deep OT class with possibly 5-6 good starters in it. But when looking at a top 5 pick I look at the player we might take vs the other players at his position. IMO there was a big drop from Jones/Barkley to the next guys. Thomas is viewed as the top OT but the drop off to Wills or Wirfs is not big, in fact more and more people have Wills above Thomas. If I wanted an OT and wasn't in love with a particular one I would try like hell to trade back. If you traded back to the Raiders and ended up with Wills/Thomas/Wirfs + Ruggs or Murray that would be awesome.
That's assuming you want an OT round 1 and don't want Simmons or Okudah.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 18, 2020 18:18:51 GMT -5
How about sign Conklin, trade back to #6, gain an extra 2nd round pick, draft Simmons at #6 and Austin Jackson or another OT and the best Center in round 2
I doubt we cut Solder this year, costs too much. He is serviceable. We upgrade RT and hopefully C this year will go a long way. Oh and sign a good OL coach lol.
Trade back and take Thomas is even better Then we have a chance at a top center,an actual legit new age linebacker instead of an athlete that is masquerading as a box safety,and a dynamic wideout Is that comment directed towards Simmons? He is the new age LB. He isn't a box safety, he's 6'4" 230+ pounds and growing. Why do people put guys down that can do many things well? You know who else played Safety and LB in college? Brian Urlacher. He also returned kicks and played WR. He just ended up as an 8 time pro bowler and 4 time 1st team All Pro LB and Hall of Famer.
Like I said the drop off from Thomas to the other OTs in the class isn't that big, while the drop from Simmons to anyone after Murray is massive. I'm ok if we don't go with Simmons, but we should trade out of the 4th pick then.
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Post by bluebuddha on Jan 18, 2020 18:50:08 GMT -5
Trade back and take Thomas is even better Then we have a chance at a top center,an actual legit new age linebacker instead of an athlete that is masquerading as a box safety,and a dynamic wideout Is that comment directed towards Simmons? He is the new age LB. He isn't a box safety, he's 6'4" 230+ pounds and growing. Why do people put guys down that can do many things well? You know who else played Safety and LB in college? Brian Urlacher. He also returned kicks and played WR. He just ended up as an 8 time pro bowler and 4 time 1st team All Pro LB and Hall of Famer.
Like I said the drop off from Thomas to the other OTs in the class isn't that big, while the drop from Simmons to anyone after Murray is massive. I'm ok if we don't go with Simmons, but we should trade out of the 4th pick then.
I don't think there is a drop off after Simmons. Simmons is unique he can't be compared. You can use him anywhere. I don;''t think he should be boxed in as a LB. That is just the way Clemson used him.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 18, 2020 19:12:10 GMT -5
I don't think there is a drop off after Simmons. Simmons is unique he can't be compared. You can use him anywhere. I don;''t think he should be boxed in as a LB. That is just the way Clemson used him. You really don't think there is a drop off? Simmons is a top ten pick, possibly top 5 and this is an extremely weak LB class. I think Murray is terrific, but after that there is nothing good or close to either Simmons or Murray.
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Post by bluebuddha on Jan 18, 2020 20:28:11 GMT -5
I don't think there is a drop off after Simmons. Simmons is unique he can't be compared. You can use him anywhere. I don;''t think he should be boxed in as a LB. That is just the way Clemson used him. You really don't think there is a drop off? Simmons is a top ten pick, possibly top 5 and this is an extremely weak LB class. I think Murray is terrific, but after that there is nothing good or close to either Simmons or Murray.
No, I think he is a very good athlete I think he is the best athlete in the draft . He is a gamer. What his position is is where I find a hard time. . He does the non-linebacker stuff really well .The LB things he is on par with other lbs. I just can really label him a LB when he does better in the coverage aspect of his assigments then the attacking aspects of it. May be he is still learning. He also has sneaky range. I really want to do FS drills at the combine. IMHO opinon. I would line him up on the best player on the opposite team whether he is a rb, wr, swr , te or qb.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 18, 2020 20:49:45 GMT -5
No, I think he is a very good athlete I think he is the best athlete in the draft . He is a gamer. What his position is is where I find a hard time. . He does the non-linebacker stuff really well .The LB things he is on par with other lbs. I just can really label him a LB when he does better in the coverage aspect of his assigments then the attacking aspects of it. May be he is still learning. He also has sneaky range. I really want to do FS drills at the combine. IMHO opinon. I would line him up on the best player on the opposite team whether he is a rb, wr, swr , te or qb. That's the thing with Simmons though, he isn't simply a great athlete that's a fast LB. He obviously is the best in coverage, anyone can agree to that. But he also does all those "LB things" better than pretty much anyone in the draft. IQ is top level, no matter what his assignment is. Excellent tackling ability, as fast as he is he hardly ever over pursues. Very long arms that help shed blocks. Blitzing is superb as well, 7 sacks even though he was mostly in coverage.
The only real knock on the guy is that he needs to bulk up to be stronger at the point of attack. Sorry man you will have to be more specific that just "he is on par with other LBs". That might be true in other draft classes but this draft class is extremely weak at LB, so no he isn't on par with the other guys for the LB things. He won the Butkus Award for best LB because he is the best LB in college. Can you say specifically what it is you think he's not that good at? Jul
Keep in mind I am saying the drop off at OT isn't as bad as LB. There are 6 different OTs that are projected to go in round 1 in various mocks, with 3 different ones being called the top OT. After Simmons and Murray who is the next best OLB? Julian Okwara...who plays DE for Notre Dame. So the 3rd best OLB in this class isn't even a LB. I would be happy with Murray but after those two I don't expect to find a starting LB.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 18, 2020 20:58:07 GMT -5
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Post by bluebuddha on Jan 19, 2020 9:45:56 GMT -5
No, I think he is a very good athlete I think he is the best athlete in the draft . He is a gamer. What his position is is where I find a hard time. . He does the non-linebacker stuff really well .The LB things he is on par with other lbs. I just can really label him a LB when he does better in the coverage aspect of his assigments then the attacking aspects of it. May be he is still learning. He also has sneaky range. I really want to do FS drills at the combine. IMHO opinon. I would line him up on the best player on the opposite team whether he is a rb, wr, swr , te or qb. That's the thing with Simmons though, he isn't simply a great athlete that's a fast LB. He obviously is the best in coverage, anyone can agree to that. But he also does all those "LB things" better than pretty much anyone in the draft. IQ is top level, no matter what his assignment is. Excellent tackling ability, as fast as he is he hardly ever over pursues. Very long arms that help shed blocks. Blitzing is superb as well, 7 sacks even though he was mostly in coverage.
The only real knock on the guy is that he needs to bulk up to be stronger at the point of attack. Sorry man you will have to be more specific that just "he is on par with other LBs". That might be true in other draft classes but this draft class is extremely weak at LB, so no he isn't on par with the other guys for the LB things. He won the Butkus Award for best LB because he is the best LB in college. Can you say specifically what it is you think he's not that good at? Jul
Keep in mind I am saying the drop off at OT isn't as bad as LB. There are 6 different OTs that are projected to go in round 1 in various mocks, with 3 different ones being called the top OT. After Simmons and Murray who is the next best OLB? Julian Okwara...who plays DE for Notre Dame. So the 3rd best OLB in this class isn't even a LB. I would be happy with Murray but after those two I don't expect to find a starting LB.
I am not a scout or a draft expert. so I do not have the knowledge of the position maybe you have so I am not good at explaining it. I have been watching Clemson and the past 2 years. I think Issaih is a really good athlete. I even had posts that praised from last year. I see holes in his game. He plays real well when he is clean. He doesn't seem to like the physical side of being a lb. He doesn't get of blocks and doesn't set the edge when he has to play outside.
The Oklahoma game showed a lot of his holes. He couldn't stop the run when it was on his side, he took bad angles, he doesn't have the instincts of top lbs I have seen play in college and gave up some big runs be cause he couldn't get of the his blocks on the edge.He did very well in coverage. Even the LSU game they it didn't seem they play him at LB as much as they did in games past.
Is he worth the #4 pick ? Sure. I think he is a perfect fit for what Judge wants to do. Do I want him at 4 ? No . I really want to the oline fixed and get DJ some lineman that will grow with him. I also want to get a legit guy that can getto the QB. I just think Simmons plays too soft to be picked that high. I just see him more DB\S than linebacker at this stage. He could get better with good coaching.
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Post by Jomo on Jan 19, 2020 11:54:40 GMT -5
You should all go check out the interview with john Smelk and Patrick graham on giants.com. for some reason I cant post the link on my phone. My big takeaway was he is asked about scheme and he says "scheme is about the people" then paraphrasing he talks about how he needs to learn our personnel and also understand the opponent and how to attack them and in some games we will be in primary 3-4 fronts, some games 4-3, in nickel it could be 2-4, 4-2, 3-3 .. goes right along with judge and being multiple and not putting square pegs into a round hole. I have always thought this was a big reason for belichek success. Most coaches are too stubborn. They have "their scheme" and they stick to it regardless to their personnel or the opponent. I love the way the new staff is talking. Talk it talk, but let's hope it translates. I agree with this but would add that the great coaches are even more granular than that. For them, it is all about mismatches within the broader scheme and those subtleties are, by definition different every week. THAT is where we need to turn this ship.
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Post by lt56 on Jan 19, 2020 22:39:31 GMT -5
"The Scheme Is Always Based On The People" AMEN to that
You gotta have the right athletes for certain schemes and good coaches also formulate their schemes based on the talent they have. Watching the 49ers that Wide-9 Scheme works great for them because it allows Dee Ford and Bosa to line up wide and get after the QB. However, that scheme won't work for everybody especially if you don't have the athletes they have in that Front 7
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 19, 2020 22:47:14 GMT -5
I am not a scout or a draft expert. so I do not have the knowledge of the position maybe you have so I am not good at explaining it. I have been watching Clemson and the past 2 years. I think Issaih is a really good athlete. I even had posts that praised from last year. I see holes in his game. He plays real well when he is clean. He doesn't seem to like the physical side of being a lb. He doesn't get of blocks and doesn't set the edge when he has to play outside.
The Oklahoma game showed a lot of his holes. He couldn't stop the run when it was on his side, he took bad angles, he doesn't have the instincts of top lbs I have seen play in college and gave up some big runs be cause he couldn't get of the his blocks on the edge.He did very well in coverage. Even the LSU game they it didn't seem they play him at LB as much as they did in games past.
Is he worth the #4 pick ? Sure. I think he is a perfect fit for what Judge wants to do. Do I want him at 4 ? No . I really want to the oline fixed and get DJ some lineman that will grow with him. I also want to get a legit guy that can getto the QB. I just think Simmons plays too soft to be picked that high. I just see him more DB\S than linebacker at this stage. He could get better with good coaching.
That is a fair assessment, nothing wrong with it at all. That is his one knock is his play strength. He certainly is not flawless. Again though my point was the difference is depth of positions in this draft. This is a very thin LB class and after Murray there really isn't a really good LB. There are 6 or more pretty solid OTs in the class. Put a different way you can get a starting OT in round 2-3 and you can't do the same with LB.
I'm ok if we go OT in round 1 though.
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Post by Blue Hulk on Jan 20, 2020 0:45:01 GMT -5
His scheme in action. Definitely saw multiple fronts.Lots of press and his defense doesn't look confused
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Post by Blue Hulk on Jan 20, 2020 0:50:56 GMT -5
It doesn't hurt that he out schemed Josh McDaniels to end the season
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Post by FundamentallySoundJones on Jan 20, 2020 2:25:33 GMT -5
We're not going to take a Center in round 2. We certainly could use an upgrade but we don't NEED a Center in a priority mode. yes it is a priority.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 12:49:11 GMT -5
Slightly off topic but man this talk makes me wonder what will Judge get out of Lorenzo Carter, a dude not meeting perhaps good potential within a broken system. im still holding out that carter might be a big factor in our defense. im hoping anyway.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jan 20, 2020 13:58:07 GMT -5
Slightly off topic but man this talk makes me wonder what will Judge get out of Lorenzo Carter, a dude not meeting perhaps good potential within a broken system. im still holding out that carter might be a big factor in our defense. im hoping anyway. Same I think he blossoms
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giantsalmon
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Post by giantsalmon on Jan 20, 2020 15:07:44 GMT -5
Slightly off topic but man this talk makes me wonder what will Judge get out of Lorenzo Carter, a dude not meeting perhaps good potential within a broken system. im still holding out that carter might be a big factor in our defense. im hoping anyway. It can't hurt that Carter made a game changing strip sack with Judge standing on the opposing sideline. Yes Golden made a nice return for a TD but it was Carter that pulled the hatchet strip on Brady. Those are normally the plays that lead to wins for better teams. The problem was Judge's special teams countered with a punt block TD of their own. I fully expect Carter will get a chance to show what he can do. Perhaps a new system/coaching can help him.
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mikethenygfan
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Post by mikethenygfan on Jan 22, 2020 9:18:34 GMT -5
Lots of cans not to kick. RT, C, WR, pass rusher and LB are all major needs. My hope is for Conklin so we don't have to take a OT early. If we don't get a vet then OT must happen in round 1 or 2. How about sign Conklin,draft Thomas,make Soldier a June 1st cut... Find a C in a BPA way earliish... Line fixed thomas is the top rated tackle right? Is he an instant starter at LT?
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mikethenygfan
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Post by mikethenygfan on Jan 22, 2020 9:23:58 GMT -5
The question is, is there an OT that is worth the 4th pick? Not many college OL are ready to play day 1 (see Eric Flowers). I'd rather use it on LB/DE and if not trade back if possible like you indicate. Honestly I don't think any of them are "must have" guys. I think it's a deep OT class with possibly 5-6 good starters in it. But when looking at a top 5 pick I look at the player we might take vs the other players at his position. IMO there was a big drop from Jones/Barkley to the next guys. Thomas is viewed as the top OT but the drop off to Wills or Wirfs is not big, in fact more and more people have Wills above Thomas. If I wanted an OT and wasn't in love with a particular one I would try like hell to trade back. If you traded back to the Raiders and ended up with Wills/Thomas/Wirfs + Ruggs or Murray that would be awesome.
That's assuming you want an OT round 1 and don't want Simmons or Okudah.
whos this murray guy everyone keeps mentioning? I dont watch college football just read some stuff on here and bbv
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Post by bluebuddha on Jan 22, 2020 21:00:32 GMT -5
I am not a scout or a draft expert. so I do not have the knowledge of the position maybe you have so I am not good at explaining it. I have been watching Clemson and the past 2 years. I think Issaih is a really good athlete. I even had posts that praised from last year. I see holes in his game. He plays real well when he is clean. He doesn't seem to like the physical side of being a lb. He doesn't get of blocks and doesn't set the edge when he has to play outside.
The Oklahoma game showed a lot of his holes. He couldn't stop the run when it was on his side, he took bad angles, he doesn't have the instincts of top lbs I have seen play in college and gave up some big runs be cause he couldn't get of the his blocks on the edge.He did very well in coverage. Even the LSU game they it didn't seem they play him at LB as much as they did in games past.
Is he worth the #4 pick ? Sure. I think he is a perfect fit for what Judge wants to do. Do I want him at 4 ? No . I really want to the oline fixed and get DJ some lineman that will grow with him. I also want to get a legit guy that can getto the QB. I just think Simmons plays too soft to be picked that high. I just see him more DB\S than linebacker at this stage. He could get better with good coaching.
That is a fair assessment, nothing wrong with it at all. That is his one knock is his play strength. He certainly is not flawless. Again though my point was the difference is depth of positions in this draft. This is a very thin LB class and after Murray there really isn't a really good LB. There are 6 or more pretty solid OTs in the class. Put a different way you can get a starting OT in round 2-3 and you can't do the same with LB.
I'm ok if we go OT in round 1 though.
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Have you heard of Kyle Duggar? He is a small school prospect out of Lenoir-Rhyne. I might have posted about him for last year's draft. He is another guy that fits the mold of modern LBs. He could be a sleeper . I read he was opening eyes at the senior bowl. There was also a kid out of UNLV I have been meaning to track down but haven't gotten to. This draft has some sneaky good LBs all over. My personal favorite is Zach Baun. I am hoping he is there in the 2nd or 3rd. He can tackle cover and get at the qb. Not as athletic but productive really good instincts. If we could get Baun and Duggar with an OT in the first I will be happy.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 22, 2020 21:30:27 GMT -5
Honestly I don't think any of them are "must have" guys. I think it's a deep OT class with possibly 5-6 good starters in it. But when looking at a top 5 pick I look at the player we might take vs the other players at his position. IMO there was a big drop from Jones/Barkley to the next guys. Thomas is viewed as the top OT but the drop off to Wills or Wirfs is not big, in fact more and more people have Wills above Thomas. If I wanted an OT and wasn't in love with a particular one I would try like hell to trade back. If you traded back to the Raiders and ended up with Wills/Thomas/Wirfs + Ruggs or Murray that would be awesome.
That's assuming you want an OT round 1 and don't want Simmons or Okudah.
whos this murray guy everyone keeps mentioning? I dont watch college football just read some stuff on here and bbv Kenneth Murray is a fantastic LB and if not for Simmons being in this class he would get more praise because he is very good in zone coverage, very good blitzing and a great tackler. He only had 102 tackles this year but he had 155 last year haha. He is a bullet and hits like a train, sometimes gets a bit wreckless and his man coverage skills are an unknown because he never had to do it. He's been projected everywhere from around 15th to early round 2. If he fell to round 2 I'd sprint to the podium and take him.
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