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Post by Morehead State on Jun 27, 2018 7:53:59 GMT -5
I'd hate that. But I guess he's speculating that the league has decided that the game won't evolve naturally. If I was managing, my whole team would be bunting against the shift nearly every at bat it was used, unless the situation dictated otherwise. I'm not a huge baseball guy so someone may educate me on why this is a bad idea, I don't now, it seems pretty simple to me. The idea that a team like the Mets - that is so overmatched on talent - refuses to adapt and do things like this to steal a win here or there is outrageous to me. That said, in my view legislating it out is just plain lazy. When I played in Little league. My coach said if there is a hole in the defense . That is where you hit the ball. If I could go the other way with the ball when I was 12 .There is no excuse a major league player should not be able to. That's why he was just a Little League coach. It's not like golf where you can hit the ball off a tee. It's fine once in a while to go the other way but if you are a natural pull hitter, go with what got you there.
As I said, Ted Williams refused to go the other way and he hit .344 lifetime with 521 HR's, and was the last hitter to hot .400. ...and missed 5 seasons in his prime due to military service. They WANT you to get outside your comfort zone. They want you to change your approach.
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Post by TEM on Jun 27, 2018 7:58:21 GMT -5
When I played in Little league. My coach said if there is a hole in the defense . That is where you hit the ball. If I could go the other way with the ball when I was 12 .There is no excuse a major league player should not be able to. That's why he was just a Little League coach. It's not like golf where you can hit the ball off a tee. It's fine once in a while to go the other way but if you are a natural pull hitter, go with what got you there.
As I said, Ted Williams refused to go the other way and he hit .344 lifetime with 521 HR's, and was the last hitter to hot .400. ...and missed 5 seasons in his prime due to military service. They WANT you to get outside your comfort zone. They want you to change your approach.
I know the point you are making. Ted Williams was the GOAT ( for hitting numbers). He is uncompilable. That argument can not apply to the guys that are obviously not his caliber of talent.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 27, 2018 8:04:33 GMT -5
That's why he was just a Little League coach. It's not like golf where you can hit the ball off a tee. It's fine once in a while to go the other way but if you are a natural pull hitter, go with what got you there.
As I said, Ted Williams refused to go the other way and he hit .344 lifetime with 521 HR's, and was the last hitter to hot .400. ...and missed 5 seasons in his prime due to military service. They WANT you to get outside your comfort zone. They want you to change your approach.
I know the point you are making. Ted Williams was the GOAT ( for hitting numbers). He is uncompilable. That argument can not apply to the guys that are obviously not his caliber of talent. Hey...if a player wants to exploit the shift and go the other way and he thinks that will help the team?....I'm all for it. But they are going to pitch to that shift as well which is in your favor as a hitter.
I don't get the objection to shifts. It's baseball. These hitters are weightlifters now and they hit HR's even when they make less than good contact. Pitchers and defenses have to adjust. Doesn't bother me at all.
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Post by TEM on Jun 27, 2018 8:15:23 GMT -5
I know the point you are making. Ted Williams was the GOAT ( for hitting numbers). He is uncompilable. That argument can not apply to the guys that are obviously not his caliber of talent. Hey...if a player wants to exploit the shift and go the other way and he thinks that will help the team?....I'm all for it. But they are going to pitch to that shift as well which is in your favor as a hitter.
I don't get the objection to shifts. It's baseball. These hitters are weightlifters now and they hit HR's even when they make less than good contact. Pitchers and defenses have to adjust. Doesn't bother me at all.
I can agreeing with a rule to abolish it . There are ways to beat the shift anyone who thinks the only way to fix it is with a rule. IMO is a moron . I understand why the league wants to do it . Hits are going down and strike outs are up . It midway through the season Mike said 65 different pitchers took no hitters past the 5th inning. The way I see it is: The question should be; are all these hitting metrics as reliable as the paper they are printed on suggests? Because the data is not saying it is . They need a scapegoat for why these negative numbers are happening. So the shift is the obvious and easiest target to go after. Because how can the metrics be wrong?
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Post by BronxBomberBlue on Jun 27, 2018 10:42:58 GMT -5
I'm torn with the shift.
First, it does show good strategy and smart scouting, and if a team wants to put all seven infielders and outfielders between 1st base and 2nd base, they should be allowed to. The tradition of having four infielders and three outfielders is to spread out and cover as much of the territory as possible. However, if they chose to say for example have all four infielders on the right side as well as all three of their outfielders for that manner, then so be it.
With that said, I HATE it when I see a line drive base hit into short right field turn into a routine ground out, because the 2nd baseman was parked out there thirty feet away from the infield dirt.
So like I said, I'm torn on the issue.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 27, 2018 11:24:53 GMT -5
I'm torn with the shift. First, it does show good strategy and smart scouting, and if a team wants to put all seven infielders and outfielders between 1st base and 2nd base, they should be allowed to. The tradition of having four infielders and three outfielders is to spread out and cover as much of the territory as possible. However, if they chose to say for example have all four infielders on the right side as well as all three of their outfielders for that manner, then so be it. With that said, I HATE it when I see a line drive base hit into short right field turn into a routine ground out, because the 2nd baseman was parked out there thirty feet away from the infield dirt. So like I said, I'm torn on the issue. I understand that. The frustation for me is that the defense was set to the hitter’s exact tendency and he obliged in forfeiting his AB by making no adjustments whatsoever. And team management not only condones it, they support it. There’s a reason that the BA of the league has been declining consistently for decades and it ain’t better pitching. Eventually some manager will start holding his players accountable to respecting each AB and if teams starts winning, stand back. The media fluffing and proclamations of genius - as opposed to pointing out the obvious, that it’s simply good fundamental baseball - will knock you over.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 27, 2018 12:30:29 GMT -5
I'm torn with the shift. First, it does show good strategy and smart scouting, and if a team wants to put all seven infielders and outfielders between 1st base and 2nd base, they should be allowed to. The tradition of having four infielders and three outfielders is to spread out and cover as much of the territory as possible. However, if they chose to say for example have all four infielders on the right side as well as all three of their outfielders for that manner, then so be it. With that said, I HATE it when I see a line drive base hit into short right field turn into a routine ground out, because the 2nd baseman was parked out there thirty feet away from the infield dirt. So like I said, I'm torn on the issue. I like the shift when opposing teams hit that liner to the 2nd baseman in RF and makes an out. I hate the shift when my guy hits that liner and makes an out.
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Post by jimmieray on Jun 27, 2018 13:07:30 GMT -5
I'm torn with the shift. First, it does show good strategy and smart scouting, and if a team wants to put all seven infielders and outfielders between 1st base and 2nd base, they should be allowed to. The tradition of having four infielders and three outfielders is to spread out and cover as much of the territory as possible. However, if they chose to say for example have all four infielders on the right side as well as all three of their outfielders for that manner, then so be it. With that said, I HATE it when I see a line drive base hit into short right field turn into a routine ground out, because the 2nd baseman was parked out there thirty feet away from the infield dirt. So like I said, I'm torn on the issue. I like the shift when opposing teams hit that liner to the 2nd baseman in RF and makes an out. I hate the shift when my guy hits that liner and makes an out.
Haha... this is true. That's when "shit!" quickly turns to "yayyyy!", or vice versa.
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Post by BronxBomberBlue on Jun 27, 2018 15:06:36 GMT -5
I'm torn with the shift. First, it does show good strategy and smart scouting, and if a team wants to put all seven infielders and outfielders between 1st base and 2nd base, they should be allowed to. The tradition of having four infielders and three outfielders is to spread out and cover as much of the territory as possible. However, if they chose to say for example have all four infielders on the right side as well as all three of their outfielders for that manner, then so be it. With that said, I HATE it when I see a line drive base hit into short right field turn into a routine ground out, because the 2nd baseman was parked out there thirty feet away from the infield dirt. So like I said, I'm torn on the issue. I like the shift when opposing teams hit that liner to the 2nd baseman in RF and makes an out. I hate the shift when my guy hits that liner and makes an out.
Haha.. +1
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Post by DandyDon on Jun 28, 2018 8:28:38 GMT -5
I'd hate that. But I guess he's speculating that the league has decided that the game won't evolve naturally. If I was managing, my whole team would be bunting against the shift nearly every at bat it was used, unless the situation dictated otherwise. I'm not a huge baseball guy so someone may educate me on why this is a bad idea, I don't now, it seems pretty simple to me. The idea that a team like the Mets - that is so overmatched on talent - refuses to adapt and do things like this to steal a win here or there is outrageous to me. That said, in my view legislating it out is just plain lazy. When I played in Little league. My coach said if there is a hole in the defense . That is where you hit the ball. If I could go the other way with the ball when I was 12 .There is no excuse a major league player should not be able to. If players could do that reliably, teams wouldnt shift. Bottom line is they cant, so they do.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 28, 2018 8:30:20 GMT -5
When I played in Little league. My coach said if there is a hole in the defense . That is where you hit the ball. If I could go the other way with the ball when I was 12 .There is no excuse a major league player should not be able to. If players could do that reliably, teams wouldnt shift. Bottom line is they cant, so they do. Pretty much. teams use the shift because it works. It's smart baseball.
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Post by DandyDon on Jun 28, 2018 8:30:21 GMT -5
First, it does show good strategy and smart scouting Smart scouting? More like putting existing data into dumb computers.
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Post by DandyDon on Jun 28, 2018 8:31:50 GMT -5
If players could do that reliably, teams wouldnt shift. Bottom line is they cant, so they do. Pretty much. teams use the shift because it works. It's smart baseball. Dont think anyone is saying it isnt smart. The problem is it just makes for more outs, less action and less scoring. In a game where there is already less of all that for a variety of reasons.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 28, 2018 8:37:54 GMT -5
Pretty much. teams use the shift because it works. It's smart baseball. Dont think anyone is saying it isnt smart. The problem is it just makes for more outs, less action and less scoring. In a game where there is already less of all that for a variety of reasons. It's kind of ironic. The OP started this thread, longing for the old days. But the old days had far fewer runs scored. Then someone complains about the shift which brings fewer runs.
Personally, I like old school baseball but I can take it either way. My complaint is the pace. If they fix that problem, I think the game will be fine.
Other leagues are using the time clock for pitchers, that's a good start. Limiting mound visits is a good idea. Not letting guys leave the batters box helps. I guess all these little things help. But the ultimate reality is that there is so much money in the game that every pitch is precious and that slows the game.
That's not going to change.
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Post by BronxBomberBlue on Jun 28, 2018 12:53:58 GMT -5
First, it does show good strategy and smart scouting Smart scouting? More like putting existing data into dumb computers. What's the difference between reviewing existing data and reviewing existing video tapes? It seems like the same thing only more informative and less time consuming.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 28, 2018 15:36:22 GMT -5
If players could do that reliably, teams wouldnt shift. Bottom line is they cant, so they do. Pretty much. teams use the shift because it works. It's smart baseball. I agree with the result but not how we get there. To me can't is ludicrous. Disinclination is not the same as inability. I believe it works primarily because of collective thought and laziness.
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Post by TEM on Jun 28, 2018 16:46:39 GMT -5
When I played in Little league. My coach said if there is a hole in the defense . That is where you hit the ball. If I could go the other way with the ball when I was 12 .There is no excuse a major league player should not be able to. If players could do that reliably, teams wouldnt shift. Bottom line is they cant, so they do. I do not believe that for one minute . I could do it at the age of 12. I just think it boils down to in todays game. Hits and getting on base < Strikeouts and Home runs.
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Post by DandyDon on Jun 29, 2018 8:41:30 GMT -5
If players could do that reliably, teams wouldnt shift. Bottom line is they cant, so they do. I do not believe that for one minute . I could do it at the age of 12. I just think it boils down to in todays game. Hits and getting on base < Strikeouts and Home runs. Pretty sure your pitchers were not throwing close to100 mph back when you were 12. Try hitting a 98 mph fastball pitched inside to the opposite field and let me know how often you can do it. You do know that pitchers try to pltch into the shift too? Sorry, but non-pros who claim they can do things the pros cant just makes me laugh.
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Post by BronxBomberBlue on Jun 29, 2018 8:50:48 GMT -5
Pretty sure your pitchers were not throwing close to100 mph back when you were 12. Try hitting a 98 mph fastball pitched inside to the opposite field and let me know how often you can do it. You do know that pitchers try to pltch into the shift too? Sorry, but non-pros who claim they can do things the pros cant just makes me laugh. +1
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Post by TEM on Jun 29, 2018 15:41:19 GMT -5
I do not believe that for one minute . I could do it at the age of 12. I just think it boils down to in todays game. Hits and getting on base < Strikeouts and Home runs. Pretty sure your pitchers were not throwing close to100 mph back when you were 12. Try hitting a 98 mph fastball pitched inside to the opposite field and let me know how often you can do it. You do know that pitchers try to pltch into the shift too? Sorry, but non-pros who claim they can do things the pros cant just makes me laugh. The mound was and is closer. So in actuality the perception of the placement of the ball and the amount of time it took the ball to travel were comparable. 46 verses 60.6 At 100 miles per hour it takes .41 of a second to travel 60.6 feet. (Fastest ML pitcher) At 60 ( average 12 year old) miles an hour it takes .52 of a second to travel 46 feet. I could throw 60 and I was an outfielder. We had kids that could throw 68 At 68 miles per hour it takes .46 of a second to travel 46 feet. 5 one hundredths of a second difference. What else ya got
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Post by DandyDon on Jun 29, 2018 23:53:16 GMT -5
So you could hit against the shift in MLB today because of some math back when you were 12?
That makes as much sense as last year when you were claiming McAdoo was a genius who was somehow hiding his best offense so he could spring it on teams later on.
It's really hard for me to take you seriously. Just sayin...
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Post by TEM on Jun 30, 2018 7:15:16 GMT -5
So you could hit against the shift in MLB today because of some math back when you were 12? That makes as much sense as last year when you were claiming McAdoo was a genius who was somehow hiding his best offense so he could spring it on teams later on. It's really hard for me to take you seriously. Just sayin... You are using what if scenarios and have to resort to non topic ways to save face, If you want to discredit me, what I said was during the 11 win season not last year so get your facts straight. I do not know how either are relevant. Without anything to backup your point . I can see why you would resort to that. Now if you want to call me a liar and say I could not pull the ball fine. I do not need your approval or do I care if you take me seriously. I showed the math. The amount of time the ball is in the air to make decision and put the bat on it is almost the same. It was explained in a very simplistic way. If you can not wrap you head around what it shows. There is no cure for that. Just saying.
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Post by Parademon1 on Jun 30, 2018 10:25:59 GMT -5
Simple, today's players are not taught the fundamentals of bunting in the minors & therefore are not gonna be good bunters in the majors. Their mindset is on hitting homers cuz that's where the big $$ are. Another thing that soured me on baseball was the amount of juicing in the 90s that created the "chicks love the long ball" era of guys having 40HRs at the all star break like that Orioles player did one yr. Just read an article about Sammy Sosa the other day & he still refuses to acknowledge that he juiced. After yrs of denial, McGuire came clean that he juiced, the other juicers, Bonds, Palmiero, Clemens & a few others still pleading the 5th.
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Post by DandyDon on Jun 30, 2018 14:12:53 GMT -5
So you could hit against the shift in MLB today because of some math back when you were 12? That makes as much sense as last year when you were claiming McAdoo was a genius who was somehow hiding his best offense so he could spring it on teams later on. It's really hard for me to take you seriously. Just sayin... You are using what if scenarios and have to resort to non topic ways to save face, If you want to discredit me, what I said was during the 11 win season not last year so get your facts straight. I do not know how either are relevant. Without anything to backup your point . I can see why you would resort to that. Now if you want to call me a liar and say I could not pull the ball fine. I do not need your approval or do I care if you take me seriously. I showed the math. The amount of time the ball is in the air to make decision and put the bat on it is almost the same. It was explained in a very simplistic way. If you can not wrap you head around what it shows. There is no cure for that. Just saying. Never said you were lying about anything. Just think it's pretty silly to make the comparison you are trying to make.
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Post by TEM on Jun 30, 2018 17:17:15 GMT -5
You are using what if scenarios and have to resort to non topic ways to save face, If you want to discredit me, what I said was during the 11 win season not last year so get your facts straight. I do not know how either are relevant. Without anything to backup your point . I can see why you would resort to that. Now if you want to call me a liar and say I could not pull the ball fine. I do not need your approval or do I care if you take me seriously. I showed the math. The amount of time the ball is in the air to make decision and put the bat on it is almost the same. It was explained in a very simplistic way. If you can not wrap you head around what it shows. There is no cure for that. Just saying. Never said you were lying about anything. Just think it's pretty silly to make the comparison you are trying to make. The math works. How is it silly?
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Post by DandyDon on Jun 30, 2018 22:31:04 GMT -5
Never said you were lying about anything. Just think it's pretty silly to make the comparison you are trying to make. The math works. How is it silly? With respect, if you dont see how comparing what you could supposedly do in little-league to what the pros can reliably do in MLB, I dont know what to tell you. Comparing little league to MLB is like comparing the Boy Scouts to Navy Seals, or comparing me playing golf with buddies to the PGA Tour. It not even the same game. If you want to bring math into it, its like addition vs differential equations.
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Post by TEM on Jul 1, 2018 8:11:19 GMT -5
The math works. How is it silly? With respect, if you dont see how comparing what you could supposedly do in little-league to what the pros can reliably do in MLB, I dont know what to tell you. Comparing little league to MLB is like comparing the Boy Scouts to Navy Seals, or comparing me playing golf with buddies to the PGA Tour. It not even the same game. If you want to bring math into it, its like addition vs differential equations. It is perception of the ball. The trimming is exactly the same . Bat speed is the only difference . You point has been They cant . That is not true there have been numerous hitters in the majors that can go to the opposite side Vlad Guerrero just come off the top of my head .I can name more if you want. You point ahs been they cant because of ball speed . So that is not true I donk know how Boy Scout and Seals are relevant but it does deflect form the fact you have yet to present one shred of evidence to support your claim that the ball is too fast for the "go the other way." The way I see it It comes down to one of three things. A they were never taught to go with what the pitcher gives you ( if it was on the outside of the plate , it was going the other way) B They can but only want to swing for the fences C The Coach tells him to swing for the fences A is the problem But your point about the speed of the pitch has been prove to be wrong by a multitude players that have done exactly what yo say they can't. I will say this again you have given nothing but what you think to be as evidence. It is purely opinion based. Your continuous anecdotal comparison to none subject matter misdirects is proof of that. This one I am calling you out on. How is the math I showed. like addition compared to deferential equations? Writing that It makes you look smart. Now prove it. What is wrong with the math in relation to timing and perception of the ball? I don't believe you had an answer before you wrote that line. Or is it, you will just blurt out anything to be right? No matter how stupid it reads, I will try to explain again . It is just a scaled down version of the same game. The math shows it to be true. The perception of the ball is the same.
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BigBlue58
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Post by BigBlue58 on Jul 1, 2018 19:08:04 GMT -5
It dawned on me while watching Blazing Saddles, that “the shift” is no different than Cleavon Little taking himself prisoner! And his remark about it working because the people “are so dumb”, is equally fitting for why the shift actually works in baseball!!!
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Post by DandyDon on Jul 10, 2018 12:18:43 GMT -5
Here is some feedback from actual MLB players - not little leaguers.... www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24049347/mlb-hitters-explain-why-just-beat-shiftDaniel Murphy: "I'm really never in the business of trying to aim for a certain area because I have to be perfect, and I'm not perfect. If any of us could control hits, we would get more of them. But you can't. You can only control the process." Matt Carpenter: ""There's this whole narrative of 'Why don't guys just hit ground balls to short?' The answer is: (a) It's not that easy and (b) it's the complete thing you've taught yourself your entire baseball career to avoid. If a guy has a chance to hit a homer and a double, and he goes up there trying to slap a ground ball to short, the other team is perfectly fine with that. "I think it gets blown out of proportion when people say, 'Just hit a ground ball to short.' You can't just take a 98 mph cutting fastball in on your hands and do that. Let's just say I sell out tonight, and I try it four times. The likelihood of me hitting four straight ground balls to short and ending up 4-for-4 are very slim. If I succeed once or maybe twice, at best I'm going to go 2-for-4 with two singles, where if I just play the game, I might go 2-for-4 with a homer and a double. It makes no sense to me." "When you look at where we're headed in baseball, the one alarming thing is the number of balls that are put in play. It's hard now -- period. Everyone is throwing 95 mph-plus with movement. Every bullpen has guys out there doing that. So just putting the ball in play and not striking out is a challenge in itself. If you already have all these disadvantages against the hitting side of the game, I wouldn't be opposed to getting back to playing the game the way it was always played, where you have two guys on the left side of the infield and two guys on the right side of the infield. "I think the easiest way to do it would be for guys to play where they've played for all the time the game has been around. Two guys on the left side. Two guys on the right side. You have a designated area where the shortstop, third baseman, second baseman and first baseman all go, and you play there. That would be the simplest way. Is it gonna happen? I don't know. But if you're looking to help even out the advantage that pitchers have over the hitters, that's the only way to do it.''
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Post by TEM on Jul 10, 2018 19:13:42 GMT -5
I agree some are straight pull ball hitters . There those that can put it in any part of the field
I have already said Vlad
here are some more who could hold off swing late and go to the opposite field. Lance Berkman Derek Jeter Ryan Howard Ichiro Miguel Cabrera Christian Yelich Jose Altuve Buster Posie It can be done. These guy all have don it constantly. There are a lot more. that can also.
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