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Post by TCHOF on Nov 13, 2019 12:53:06 GMT -5
That's all well and good. Fan's can scream whatever they want, but just ask yourselves "What do the Giants brass favor when it comes to replacing coaches?" It's the same reason they drafted Eli 2.0. Continuity. You are talking about what will happen. I'm talking about what should happen.
John Mara is completely inept. That can't be denied. He has put us here. The buck stops with him.
So do I think Shurmur will get fired? I really don't know. As I said, if we end up 3-13 or 4-12 this year he would have a tough time keeping him. If we win a few more games and end up 6-10....or even 5-11? I think he'll favor the devil he knows. I do because I have become convinced that John Mara is a fool when it comes to football. Something I never believed until a few years ago.
I knew I would eventually get you on board!
#$@&!* that Silver-Spooned Weenie!
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Post by jmike on Nov 13, 2019 12:54:27 GMT -5
Matt Rhule will be the coach of the New York Football Giants in 2020.
Mark it down! As of now I like Toub and Rhule as possible options. Might be a few more out there, but off the top of my head, I like them based on what I hear from people I trust to know this stuff.
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Post by jmike on Nov 13, 2019 12:59:15 GMT -5
Risky hire. Coming off two bad hires in McAdoo and Shurmur and hiring a coach who's only NFL experience is offensive line assistant coach with us in 2012. It's not if but when Shurmur will be fired, I think Mara goes with a coach with experience. And I'm not talking about Pat Shurmur experience, I'm talking about a coach who has shown he can win in this league. Most of them have jobs, are retired or are dead.
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Post by giantlegacy on Nov 13, 2019 13:07:55 GMT -5
**** continuity = hello qb carousel and franchise hell If we hire the right coach, who is going to care that Shurmur was the second coach we fired in 3 years?
Shurmur is not the guy. keeping him on is just prolonging the inevitable just for the sake of "continuity". Will "continuity" be served if we fire him after 2020?
It's very important because as a young qb not only are you trying to learn NFL defenses and the speed of ths game but you are also just getting good at the system you are in. It takes 16-24 games for most top end qbs to have the game slow down enough so that they can just concentrate on reading defenses,which speeds up almost instantly because you are now familiar with the system,and now your young qb is just doing things naturally on instinct. New system means all brain power and learning the new system with the recievers that could have been used by everyone to study film and practice the plays they have known for over a year. This means that the game speed is not going to slow down for Jones like it would have on schedule next year because he is now thinking about new system. This means 2020 at best his development stagnates,and most times QBs put in this situation regress.Now Jones is needlessly on the hot seat in 2021. There is a reason only Goff has been the outleir with a first year coaching change and that is because Fishsr is an old school defensive minded coach that neglected the offense for years and they caught lightning in a bottle with McVay (and I think Fishsr had a basic WCO so it really wasn't that much of a scheme change) And this isn't including new system,new qb coach to tinker with Jones into mechanics foreign to him.. Nobody is really thinking long term when they say **** continuity and staying in the same system as history is littered with 1st round qb busts that had talent but had their fates sealed by a year one change of system
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Post by fifthavephil on Nov 13, 2019 13:09:44 GMT -5
Could you tell us who he is first? Seems like a fair question....
44 years old. Grew up in NYC Walk-on LB at Penn State under Paterno Asst OL coach under TC (when the OL was good and when Gettleman was here) - so there is a Giants connection (which we know the Giants love) HC at Temple - took a crappy program and led them to two straight 10 win seasons (first time ever in school history) HC at Baylor - has turned around a program that was even more of a mess than the Giants (hard to believe). Team is currently undefeated.
It seems like most NFL teams miss on HC's by taking a non-HC and hoping that he can be a HC. As it turns out, a lot of these guys are just not the CEO types that you need to run an entire organization (see, Pat Shurmur). Rhule is the CEO type and has actually turned around two down-trodden teams (albeit on the college level).
Having the Paterno and Coughlin influences ,is a Big Plus. Has college coaching experience. Checks the boxed for me.
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Post by McCherry on Nov 13, 2019 13:17:26 GMT -5
In terms of a veteran coach with winning experience is there a bigger name out there than McCarthy?
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Post by TCHOF on Nov 13, 2019 13:20:49 GMT -5
Matt Rhule will be the coach of the New York Football Giants in 2020.
Mark it down! As of now I like Toub and Rhule as possible options. Might be a few more out there, but off the top of my head, I like them based on what I hear from people I trust to know this stuff. Toub is interesting. Seemed to be a hot HC candidate a few years ago, but haven't heard much about him since ....
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Post by TCHOF on Nov 13, 2019 13:22:22 GMT -5
If we hire the right coach, who is going to care that Shurmur was the second coach we fired in 3 years?
Shurmur is not the guy. keeping him on is just prolonging the inevitable just for the sake of "continuity". Will "continuity" be served if we fire him after 2020?
It's very important because as a young qb not only are you trying to learn NFL defenses and the speed of ths game but you are also just getting good at the system you are in. It takes 16-24 games for most top end qbs to have the game slow down enough so that they can just concentrate on reading defenses,which speeds up almost instantly because you are now familiar with the system,and now your young qb is just doing things naturally on instinct. New system means all brain power and learning the new system with the recievers that could have been used by everyone to study film and practice the plays they have known for over a year. This means that the game speed is not going to slow down for Jones like it would have on schedule next year because he is now thinking about new system. This means 2020 at best his development stagnates,and most times QBs put in this situation regress.Now Jones is needlessly on the hot seat in 2021. There is a reason only Goff has been the outleir with a first year coaching change and that is because Fishsr is an old school defensive minded coach that neglected the offense for years and they caught lightning in a bottle with McVay (and I think Fishsr had a basic WCO so it really wasn't that much of a scheme change) And this isn't including new system,new qb coach to tinker with Jones into mechanics foreign to him.. Nobody is really thinking long term when they say **** continuity and staying in the same system as history is littered with 1st round qb busts that had talent but had their fates sealed by a year one change of system How do we know that the way Jones has been playing is attributable to Shurmur? Maybe he would be even better (or at least the same) under another coach.
But I hear you, that will be by far the single biggest factor in whether Shurmur stays or goes ... the effect on Jones.
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Post by scoostraw on Nov 13, 2019 13:22:59 GMT -5
lol. Sorry, but I don't agree. 2021 maybe.....but Shurmur will get at least 2 seasons with Jones. Good or bad. I thought so too.
But I think things have changed. Add to that the real likelihood that the Giants will not win another game this season and I think Shurmur & Co. are gone.
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Post by Kruunch on Nov 13, 2019 13:25:38 GMT -5
Risky hire. Coming off two bad hires in McAdoo and Shurmur and hiring a coach who's only NFL experience is offensive line assistant coach with us in 2012. It's not if but when Shurmur will be fired, I think Mara goes with a coach with experience. And I'm not talking about Pat Shurmur experience, I'm talking about a coach who has shown he can win in this league. Most of them have jobs, are retired or are dead. Great.. I'm glad to hear this. It's like asking for a brand new bike for Christmas as a kid and getting socks. Shurmur is our socks.. And not the comfortable kind, the ones where the elastic sucks and as you walk the sock goes into your shoe.
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Post by Roosevelt on Nov 13, 2019 13:27:54 GMT -5
**** continuity. Go get the best coach. That's all well and good. Fan's can scream whatever they want, but just ask yourselves "What do the Giants brass favor when it comes to replacing coaches?" It's the same reason they drafted Eli 2.0. Continuity.
That makes absolutely no sense. I'm not saying you're wrong, but how could John Mara believe the Giants did a great job handling the Eli Manning era? Yes they had themselves a top 10 QB for many years who elevated his game in 2011 to become a top 5 QB, and helped them miraculously win a couple Super Bowls. But those teams were 10 and 9 win regular season teams. The Giants never established themselves as a truly solid franchise for any extended period of time, nor was Eli able to maintain that top 5 position at QB other than that 1 season.
With every contract Eli signed there were questions surrounding his game, and while that never stopped the Giants from signing him, those questions remained right up until this season.
The only continuity I see from John Mara's Giants, is a franchise which scrambles every year to try and get things fixed.
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Post by JoeBigBlue on Nov 13, 2019 13:29:14 GMT -5
Risky hire. Coming off two bad hires in McAdoo and Shurmur and hiring a coach who's only NFL experience is offensive line assistant coach with us in 2012. It's not if but when Shurmur will be fired, I think Mara goes with a coach with experience. And I'm not talking about Pat Shurmur experience, I'm talking about a coach who has shown he can win in this league. Most of them have jobs, are retired or are dead. So?
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Post by jmike on Nov 13, 2019 13:35:37 GMT -5
Most of them have jobs, are retired or are dead. Great.. I'm glad to hear this. It's like asking for a brand new bike for Christmas as a kid and getting socks. Shurmur is our socks.. And not the comfortable kind, the ones where the elastic sucks and as you walk the sock goes into your shoe. This doesn't work....I like socks...I do not like Shurmur as our HC.
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Post by giants8493 on Nov 13, 2019 13:46:03 GMT -5
Matt Rhule will be the coach of the New York Football Giants in 2020.
Mark it down! Interesting comment. I was just wondering what Matt rhule has been up too yesterday. I think he left this staff to be the hc for temple? I think he was an assistant position coach for the Giants when he left. I think they will give shurmer another year for Jones sake but I am deeply intrigued by this.
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Post by giantlegacy on Nov 13, 2019 13:53:53 GMT -5
In terms of a veteran coach with winning experience is there a bigger name out there than McCarthy? Mac 2.0 Hard pass
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Post by Kruunch on Nov 13, 2019 13:57:29 GMT -5
In terms of a veteran coach with winning experience is there a bigger name out there than McCarthy? Mac 2.0 Hard pass I'm sure Aaron Rodgers would give him a strong endorsement..
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Post by giantlegacy on Nov 13, 2019 14:01:21 GMT -5
I'm sure Aaron Rodgers would give him a strong endorsement.. Same highly inflexible outdated version of the WCO I do like the uptempo style though,but now many of the modern offenses are doing this
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Post by jimmieray on Nov 13, 2019 14:05:37 GMT -5
Great.. I'm glad to hear this. It's like asking for a brand new bike for Christmas as a kid and getting socks. Shurmur is our socks.. And not the comfortable kind, the ones where the elastic sucks and as you walk the sock goes into your shoe. This doesn't work....I like socks...I do not like Shurmur as our HC. Why do you need socks - didn't you say you have hairy feet?
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Post by TEM on Nov 13, 2019 14:11:51 GMT -5
**** continuity = hello qb carousel and franchise hell So keep inept people in place for the sake of continuity.
That is an all too familiar theme for our FO recently. Look where it got us.
I get your point. I too hate constant change. But they hired the wrong guy and you have to cut your losses. The reason the Steelers keep their coaches through thick and thin is because they hire the RIGHT guys. We haven't the last two hires.
How exactly has that lack of continuity worked so far for the, Brown, Lions, Jets, Dolphins, Bills? The teams that are in a preputial grass is greener mind set It is not like he took a 10 win team and destroyed it. We have less then 20% of the team left from 2017.This is a complete rebuild.
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Post by Sarcasman on Nov 13, 2019 14:18:03 GMT -5
That's all well and good. Fan's can scream whatever they want, but just ask yourselves "What do the Giants brass favor when it comes to replacing coaches?" It's the same reason they drafted Eli 2.0. Continuity. That makes absolutely no sense. I'm not saying you're wrong, but how could John Mara believe the Giants did a great job handling the Eli Manning era? Yes they had themselves a top 10 QB for many years who elevated his game in 2011 to become a top 5 QB, and helped them miraculously win a couple Super Bowls. But those teams were 10 and 9 win regular season teams. The Giants never established themselves as a truly solid franchise for any extended period of time, nor was Eli able to maintain that top 5 position at QB other than that 1 season.
With every contract Eli signed there were questions surrounding his game, and while that never stopped the Giants from signing him, those questions remained right up until this season.
The only continuity I see from John Mara's Giants, is a franchise which scrambles every year to try and get things fixed.
This is a team that not only never established themselves as a truly solid franchise for any extended period of time, it also never stepped back to evaluate the roster in total. It will all be fine. After all, he pulled those playoff runs out if his ass before, he can just do it again
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Post by giantlegacy on Nov 13, 2019 14:20:45 GMT -5
It's very important because as a young qb not only are you trying to learn NFL defenses and the speed of ths game but you are also just getting good at the system you are in. It takes 16-24 games for most top end qbs to have the game slow down enough so that they can just concentrate on reading defenses,which speeds up almost instantly because you are now familiar with the system,and now your young qb is just doing things naturally on instinct. New system means all brain power and learning the new system with the recievers that could have been used by everyone to study film and practice the plays they have known for over a year. This means that the game speed is not going to slow down for Jones like it would have on schedule next year because he is now thinking about new system. This means 2020 at best his development stagnates,and most times QBs put in this situation regress.Now Jones is needlessly on the hot seat in 2021. There is a reason only Goff has been the outleir with a first year coaching change and that is because Fishsr is an old school defensive minded coach that neglected the offense for years and they caught lightning in a bottle with McVay (and I think Fishsr had a basic WCO so it really wasn't that much of a scheme change) And this isn't including new system,new qb coach to tinker with Jones into mechanics foreign to him.. Nobody is really thinking long term when they say **** continuity and staying in the same system as history is littered with 1st round qb busts that had talent but had their fates sealed by a year one change of system How do we know that the way Jones has been playing is attributable to Shurmur? Maybe he would be even better (or at least the same) under another coach.
But I hear you, that will be by far the single biggest factor in whether Shurmur stays or goes ... the effect on Jones.
Jones development has to be the number 1 priority right now the next 2 years. Right now I consider us in our first losing cycle(a losing cycle includes a complete regime change and a new franchise qb).Many teams often go through one between major runs.If we mess up Jones development when he had the goods to be a legit top end qb we end up going into a 2nd losing cycle,and this is now officially Wilderness years 2.0,the Browns/Jets/Lions style dead franchise status. Doing whatever is nessesary to get Jones to his peak potential is the surefire way not to go into losing cycle 2.In addition to adding recourses to the offense (O line and at least 1 more dynamic playmaker)this offseason,continuity with the system at least 1 more year until the game slows down for him is the way you give Jones the best chance of succeeding. If this means keeping Shurmer this next year because they can't guarantee getting the new staff to have the same system then so be it.At least after 2020 when the game slows down and he isnt thinking as much and has a much better grasp of reading NFL defenses he would have a fighting chance in the event they have to change the system around him.
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Post by giantlegacy on Nov 13, 2019 14:26:47 GMT -5
That's all well and good. Fan's can scream whatever they want, but just ask yourselves "What do the Giants brass favor when it comes to replacing coaches?" It's the same reason they drafted Eli 2.0. Continuity.
That makes absolutely no sense. I'm not saying you're wrong, but how could John Mara believe the Giants did a great job handling the Eli Manning era? Yes they had themselves a top 10 QB for many years who elevated his game in 2011 to become a top 5 QB, and helped them miraculously win a couple Super Bowls. But those teams were 10 and 9 win regular season teams. The Giants never established themselves as a truly solid franchise for any extended period of time, nor was Eli able to maintain that top 5 position at QB other than that 1 season.
With every contract Eli signed there were questions surrounding his game, and while that never stopped the Giants from signing him, those questions remained right up until this season.
The only continuity I see from John Mara's Giants, is a franchise which scrambles every year to try and get things fixed.
This has more to do with the front office going even as far back as George Young's last 8 years always trying to play catch up because of bad drafts ame having to band aid the roster in free agency. Happened in 2000,2005,2007,,2009,2016. You never develop a solid young core that all bloom at the same time in that run. The only true dominant run they had was the playoff run in 2007/08 through the first 5 weeks in 2009,where (including playoffs)they went 21-5.. What Gettleman is trying to do is build that really good young core around our new franchise qb so Jones doesn't have to overcome what Eli often had to attempt during his career most of the time
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 14:30:08 GMT -5
That's all well and good. Fan's can scream whatever they want, but just ask yourselves "What do the Giants brass favor when it comes to replacing coaches?" It's the same reason they drafted Eli 2.0. Continuity. You are talking about what will happen. I'm talking about what should happen.
John Mara is completely inept. That can't be denied. He has put us here. The buck stops with him.
So do I think Shurmur will get fired? I really don't know. As I said, if we end up 3-13 or 4-12 this year he would have a tough time keeping him. If we win a few more games and end up 6-10....or even 5-11? I think he'll favor the devil he knows. I do because I have become convinced that John Mara is a fool when it comes to football. Something I never believed until a few years ago.
Pardon me, but that is not what this thread is about. From it's onset it has bern about predicting what is likely to happen. Not what we want to or wish would happen.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 14:37:30 GMT -5
That's all well and good. Fan's can scream whatever they want, but just ask yourselves "What do the Giants brass favor when it comes to replacing coaches?" It's the same reason they drafted Eli 2.0. Continuity.
That makes absolutely no sense. I'm not saying you're wrong, but how could John Mara believe the Giants did a great job handling the Eli Manning era? Yes they had themselves a top 10 QB for many years who elevated his game in 2011 to become a top 5 QB, and helped them miraculously win a couple Super Bowls. But those teams were 10 and 9 win regular season teams. The Giants never established themselves as a truly solid franchise for any extended period of time, nor was Eli able to maintain that top 5 position at QB other than that 1 season.
With every contract Eli signed there were questions surrounding his game, and while that never stopped the Giants from signing him, those questions remained right up until this season.
The only continuity I see from John Mara's Giants, is a franchise which scrambles every year to try and get things fixed.
They continued to try and build the team around Eli for far too long. They even promoted McAdoo for the sake of continuity. It's been about what's in the best interest of Eli for years. They just thought it was better for him to get more weapons rather than olineman.
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Post by TEM on Nov 13, 2019 14:51:49 GMT -5
This is frightening because John Fox is still out there Nothing like an ancient style coach that has no history of any young qb being developed into anything more than a game manager It's difficult to gauge what Mara will do. But if I'm an owner I'm skeptical about hiring a new head coach with 0 NFL coaching experience. Now it has been proven to work see Frank Reich and Doug Pederson. Whatever the outcome is I'm sure it will be met with cheers and jeers. I agree the NFL is a different animal than the NCAA. Unless you are a top 20 program in College . The goals are not to win a championship. It is to get to a bowl game. Because if you are not ranked day1of the NCAA. There is next to zero chance to get into the NCAA playoff games. The NFL it is to win the championship.
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Post by giantlegacy on Nov 13, 2019 14:55:14 GMT -5
It's difficult to gauge what Mara will do. But if I'm an owner I'm skeptical about hiring a new head coach with 0 NFL coaching experience. Now it has been proven to work see Frank Reich and Doug Pederson. Whatever the outcome is I'm sure it will be met with cheers and jeers. I agree the NFL is a different animal than the NCAA. Unless you are a top 20 program in College . The goals are not to win a championship. It is to get to a bowl game. Because if you are not ranked day1of the NCAA. There is next to zero chance to get into the NCAA playoff games. The NFL it is to win the championship. It's all about recruiting and keeping the alumni happy
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Post by TEM on Nov 13, 2019 15:09:46 GMT -5
I agree the NFL is a different animal than the NCAA. Unless you are a top 20 program in College . The goals are not to win a championship. It is to get to a bowl game. Because if you are not ranked day1of the NCAA. There is next to zero chance to get into the NCAA playoff games. The NFL it is to win the championship. It's all about recruiting and keeping the alumni happy I am not sure that is true. There are roughly 200 teams in the NCAA. All of them cannot recruit the same as the top programs are able to.
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Post by Morehead State on Nov 13, 2019 15:10:56 GMT -5
You are talking about what will happen. I'm talking about what should happen.
John Mara is completely inept. That can't be denied. He has put us here. The buck stops with him.
So do I think Shurmur will get fired? I really don't know. As I said, if we end up 3-13 or 4-12 this year he would have a tough time keeping him. If we win a few more games and end up 6-10....or even 5-11? I think he'll favor the devil he knows. I do because I have become convinced that John Mara is a fool when it comes to football. Something I never believed until a few years ago.
Pardon me, but that is not what this thread is about. From it's onset it has bern about predicting what is likely to happen. Not what we want to or wish would happen. I can change the rules because I'm special.
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Post by Nite on Nov 13, 2019 15:41:41 GMT -5
Risky hire. Coming off two bad hires in McAdoo and Shurmur and hiring a coach who's only NFL experience is offensive line assistant coach with us in 2012. It's not if but when Shurmur will be fired, I think Mara goes with a coach with experience. And I'm not talking about Pat Shurmur experience, I'm talking about a coach who has shown he can win in this league. Most of them have jobs, are retired or are dead. Hmm that kinda describes our FO..
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Post by jmike on Nov 13, 2019 15:44:11 GMT -5
This doesn't work....I like socks...I do not like Shurmur as our HC. Why do you need socks - didn't you say you have hairy feet? No, I never said that.
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