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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 13:20:36 GMT -5
What I don't quite grasp is: If you are firing your head coach it would mean things are not going well. Why would you want continuity in this situation? I disagree. Firing your HC because you are in the first year of a rebuild and things aren't going well is a knee jerk over reaction. This is only going to happen in the impatient fan base's head. Shurmur will get at least another year. If it hasn't gotten any better (or gets worse) by the end of that season, then they will fire him. On the question of continuity while things are not going well, all one has to do is look at all the decisions made for the sake of continuity over the last 8 years. Not saying it;s the right way.......but it is the Giants way. As this team continues to lose every week I think that Shurmur could be fired. The current owners now have a history of doing this and that coach had the team winning much more then this current coach.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 13:22:20 GMT -5
That makes absolutely no sense. I'm not saying you're wrong, but how could John Mara believe the Giants did a great job handling the Eli Manning era? Yes they had themselves a top 10 QB for many years who elevated his game in 2011 to become a top 5 QB, and helped them miraculously win a couple Super Bowls. But those teams were 10 and 9 win regular season teams. The Giants never established themselves as a truly solid franchise for any extended period of time, nor was Eli able to maintain that top 5 position at QB other than that 1 season.
With every contract Eli signed there were questions surrounding his game, and while that never stopped the Giants from signing him, those questions remained right up until this season.
The only continuity I see from John Mara's Giants, is a franchise which scrambles every year to try and get things fixed.
Perfectly stated. Except for the fact that they kept a declining QB and tried to get him "weapons" over and over, ignoring the most glaring issue that was the o-line, and promoted an inexperienced OC to HC. All for the sake of "continuity" for Eli. Mara was all about Eli's comfort.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 13:25:11 GMT -5
I disagree. Firing your HC because you are in the first year of a rebuild and things aren't going well is a knee jerk over reaction. This is only going to happen in the impatient fan base's head. Shurmur will get at least another year. If it hasn't gotten any better (or gets worse) by the end of that season, then they will fire him. On the question of continuity while things are not going well, all one has to do is look at all the decisions made for the sake of continuity over the last 8 years. Not saying it;s the right way.......but it is the Giants way. As this team continues to lose every week I think that Shurmur could be fired. The current owners now have a history of doing this and that coach had the team winning much more then this current coach. It happened ONCE and it was because of the "benching" Eli fiasco (that Mara created) and because there was an outright mutiny in the lockerroom. That is not the case this year. It would be crazy to fire a HC after just one year for the rookie QB, and the players like Shurmur. He isn't going anywhere this off season.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 13:31:34 GMT -5
As this team continues to lose every week I think that Shurmur could be fired. The current owners now have a history of doing this and that coach had the team winning much more then this current coach. It happened ONCE and it was because of the "benching" Eli fiasco (that Mara created) and because there was an outright mutiny in the lockerroom. That is not the case this year. It would be crazy to fire a HC after just one year for the rookie QB, and the players like Shurmur. He isn't going anywhere this off season. Crazy or not we are talking the Giants with this current owner and they are the worse team in the NFL since 2017! Watching some of the routes of these receivers and how bad Barkley is playing has to be a glaring red flag to the owners that Shurmur is in over his head.. We can go back and forth until next year but I think it as real possibility with all this losing and you still don't think it will.. Next..
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Post by scoostraw on Nov 14, 2019 13:32:08 GMT -5
Firing your HC because you are in the first year of a rebuild and things aren't going well is a knee jerk over reaction. Things not going well is one thing. But if a big part of the reason why things are not going well is that you realize that the HC is incompetent, then IMO it is the right thing to do. Admit the mistake and move on.
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Post by jmike on Nov 14, 2019 13:38:56 GMT -5
What I don't quite grasp is: If you are firing your head coach it would mean things are not going well. Why would you want continuity in this situation? I disagree. Firing your HC because you are in the first year of a rebuild and things aren't going well is a knee jerk over reaction. This is only going to happen in the impatient fan base's head. Shurmur will get at least another year. If it hasn't gotten any better (or gets worse) by the end of that season, then they will fire him. On the question of continuity while things are not going well, all one has to do is look at all the decisions made for the sake of continuity over the last 8 years. Not saying it;s the right way.......but it is the Giants way. When they fired Coughlin, they weren't in a rebuild. But how does one disagree with a question anyway? That doesn't make any sense. Q:"Why?" A:"I disagree."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 13:39:52 GMT -5
Firing your HC because you are in the first year of a rebuild and things aren't going well is a knee jerk over reaction. Things not going well is one thing. But if a big part of the reason why things are not going well is that you realize that the HC is incompetent, then IMO it is the right thing to do. Admist the mistake and move on. The only people I've heard say that Shurmur is incompetent (not disagreeing) is the fan base. I don't listen or read anything from the media, so I don't know if they are. The last I checked, neither one has a say. And based on the history during a fof how the Giants operate, they are going to give him more than one year in a full rebuild. Not saying it's the right thing to do. Saying it's the Giants way of doing things.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 13:41:49 GMT -5
I disagree. Firing your HC because you are in the first year of a rebuild and things aren't going well is a knee jerk over reaction. This is only going to happen in the impatient fan base's head. Shurmur will get at least another year. If it hasn't gotten any better (or gets worse) by the end of that season, then they will fire him. On the question of continuity while things are not going well, all one has to do is look at all the decisions made for the sake of continuity over the last 8 years. Not saying it;s the right way.......but it is the Giants way. When they fired Coughlin, they weren't in a rebuild. But how does one disagree with a question anyway? That doesn't make any sense. Q:"Why?" A:"I disagree." Sorry, not going to get into the "jmike semantics vortex" with you again. You understood my response perfectly fine. Firing Coughlin was after years of trying everything else. Even then they screwed that up by still keeping Jerry around.
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Post by Roosevelt on Nov 14, 2019 13:45:49 GMT -5
And that is not imply in any way that Manning did that by himself. He clearly did not. Those teams all coalesced at the right time. The defense played great, the OL pulled together, so many things had to go right and they did. In my opinion believing that was a formula for sustained success was irresponsible. Wrong ,yes,mistake ....absolutely .I don't know if I would say irresponsable? Without a doubt ............bad. JMO
In hindsight I would say absolutely. Everything Reese tried failed and Mara watched over it.
And what did Mara say when asked why he felt Pat and Dave were the right guys to run the Giants? He said he feels good about them because they both are of the mindset that the Oline needed to be fixed. That tells everything we need to know about Jerry Reese.
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Post by jmike on Nov 14, 2019 13:46:33 GMT -5
When they fired Coughlin, they weren't in a rebuild. But how does one disagree with a question anyway? That doesn't make any sense. Q:"Why?" A:"I disagree." Sorry, not going to get into the "jmike semantics vortex" with you again. You understood my response perfectly fine. Firing Coughlin was after years of trying everything else. Even then they screwed that up by still keeping Jerry around. No, I do understand your post. It just didn't answer my question. Not semantics, I asked a question and your response didn't make sense as an answer to a question. Why would you want continuity in coaching if you just fired a coach for not performing? And yes, they did screw up keeping Jerry.
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Post by scoostraw on Nov 14, 2019 13:48:17 GMT -5
Things not going well is one thing. But if a big part of the reason why things are not going well is that you realize that the HC is incompetent, then IMO it is the right thing to do. Admist the mistake and move on. The only people I've heard say that Shurmur is incompetent (not disagreeing) is the fan base. I don't listen or read anything from the media, so I don't know if they are. The last I checked, neither one has a say. And based on the history during a fof how the Giants operate, they are going to give him more than one year in a full rebuild. Not saying it's the right thing to do. Saying it's the Giants way of doing things. I hearya.
I do still think that he may not be back next year. Especially if they lose out the rest of the way.
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Post by DandyDon on Nov 14, 2019 13:48:57 GMT -5
Things not going well is one thing. But if a big part of the reason why things are not going well is that you realize that the HC is incompetent, then IMO it is the right thing to do. Admist the mistake and move on. The only people I've heard say that Shurmur is incompetent (not disagreeing) is the fan base. I don't listen or read anything from the media, so I don't know if they are. The last I checked, neither one has a say. And based on the history during a fof how the Giants operate, they are going to give him more than one year in a full rebuild. Not saying it's the right thing to do. Saying it's the Giants way of doing things. Mara was reportedly furious after the game on Sunday. And you generally dont hear anything from him during the season anyway. I dont know if Shurmur gets another year, but you not hearing anything from DG or Mara is not evidence of anything. I think it will depend on how the rest of the season goes. I would bet money that DG will still be here, but not Shurmur.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 13:51:32 GMT -5
Sorry, not going to get into the "jmike semantics vortex" with you again. You understood my response perfectly fine. Firing Coughlin was after years of trying everything else. Even then they screwed that up by still keeping Jerry around. No, I do understand your post. It just didn't answer my question. Not semantics, I asked a question and your response didn't make sense as an answer to a question. Why would you want continuity in coaching if you just fired a coach for not performing? Yes you did...and it's ALWAYS a semantics issue with you. Not playing....moving on Because that was behind EVERY decision Mara made in regards to changes. Including firing the HC and promoting the OC who was part of the underperforming team. Because it was easier for Eli to not have to learn another system. It's also why Shurmur was hired, because it was a similar offense. AND they thought he was The QB Whisperer.
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Post by jmike on Nov 14, 2019 13:51:51 GMT -5
The only people I've heard say that Shurmur is incompetent (not disagreeing) is the fan base. I don't listen or read anything from the media, so I don't know if they are. The last I checked, neither one has a say. And based on the history during a fof how the Giants operate, they are going to give him more than one year in a full rebuild. Not saying it's the right thing to do. Saying it's the Giants way of doing things. Mara was reportedly furious after the game on Sunday. And you generally dont hear anything from him during the season anyway. I dont know if Shurmur gets another year, but you not hearing anything from DG or Mara is not evidence of anything. I think it will depend on how the rest of the season goes. I would bet money that DG will still be here, but not Shurmur. I'd be a bit surprised if they fired Shurmur, even if we lose the rest of the games. Not shocked, but I do not expect them to fire him.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 13:53:04 GMT -5
The only people I've heard say that Shurmur is incompetent (not disagreeing) is the fan base. I don't listen or read anything from the media, so I don't know if they are. The last I checked, neither one has a say. And based on the history during a fof how the Giants operate, they are going to give him more than one year in a full rebuild. Not saying it's the right thing to do. Saying it's the Giants way of doing things. I hearya.
I do still think that he may not be back next year. Especially if they lose out the rest of the way.
Sorry, but it's not the way they do things, right or wrong. And they EXPECTED (as did I) that the team would be worse this year.
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Post by thetruth on Nov 14, 2019 13:53:13 GMT -5
Mara was reportedly furious after the game on Sunday. And you generally dont hear anything from him during the season anyway. I dont know if Shurmur gets another year, but you not hearing anything from DG or Mara is not evidence of anything. I think it will depend on how the rest of the season goes. I would bet money that DG will still be here, but not Shurmur. I'd be a bit surprised if they fired Shurmur, even if we lose the rest of the games. Not shocked, but I do not expect them to fire him. Then what? Firing the coach means that he's not performing up to the expectations of the roster. What were your expectations of the roster? or anyone that think Shurmur should be gone. Im curious.
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Post by scoostraw on Nov 14, 2019 13:54:12 GMT -5
I would bet money that DG will still be here, but not Shurmur. This is what I think. (and hope)
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Post by thetruth on Nov 14, 2019 13:55:14 GMT -5
I hearya.
I do still think that he may not be back next year. Especially if they lose out the rest of the way.
Sorry, but it's not the way they do things, right or wrong. And they EXPECTED (as did I) that the team would be worse this year. Shurmur has been fantastic for Jones, IMO. Can't expect him to work wonders w/ a piss poor roster. Are some of his decisions ideal? no. Is he the reason why the Giants aren't winning? im not so sure
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Post by jmike on Nov 14, 2019 13:55:49 GMT -5
No, I do understand your post. It just didn't answer my question. Not semantics, I asked a question and your response didn't make sense as an answer to a question. Why would you want continuity in coaching if you just fired a coach for not performing? Yes you did...and it's ALWAYS a semantics issue with you. Not playing....moving on Because that was behind EVERY decision Mara made in regards to changes. Including firing the HC and promoting the OC who was part of the underperforming team. Because it was easier for Eli to not have to learn another system. It's also why Shurmur was hired, because it was a similar offense. AND they thought he was The QB Whisperer. Oh, I see. Yes, I agree this is what the Giants were thinking. Not really what I meant though. Why does this line of thinking make sense? Particularly referring to the whole Coughlin thing. Team isn't performing, coaching is believed to be the problem, then fire of asst coaches, working the way up to HC, then replace with existing coach. I never understood why the Giants thought this was a good idea.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 13:55:49 GMT -5
I would bet money that DG will still be here, but not Shurmur. This is what I think. (and hope) And I would take that bet. "Hope" is the key term in that post
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Post by thetruth on Nov 14, 2019 13:56:12 GMT -5
I would bet money that DG will still be here, but not Shurmur. This is what I think. (and hope) Mara wouldn't get rid of his boy that easy. He'll need to make a few more crappy FA deals and a bad draft or two for him to even contemplate it.
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Post by jmike on Nov 14, 2019 13:58:20 GMT -5
I'd be a bit surprised if they fired Shurmur, even if we lose the rest of the games. Not shocked, but I do not expect them to fire him. Then what? Firing the coach means that he's not performing up to the expectations of the roster. What were your expectations of the roster? or anyone that think Shurmur should be gone. Im curious. Read my statement again and then read your response and tell me if your response makes any sense to you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 13:58:43 GMT -5
Yes you did...and it's ALWAYS a semantics issue with you. Not playing....moving on Because that was behind EVERY decision Mara made in regards to changes. Including firing the HC and promoting the OC who was part of the underperforming team. Because it was easier for Eli to not have to learn another system. It's also why Shurmur was hired, because it was a similar offense. AND they thought he was The QB Whisperer. Oh, I see. Yes, I agree this is what the Giants were thinking. Not really what I meant though. Why does this line of thinking make sense? Particularly referring to the whole Coughlin thing. Team isn't performing, coaching is believed to be the problem, then fire of asst coaches, working the way up to HC, then replace with existing coach. I never understood why the Giants thought this was a good idea. I agree. It hasn't worked in the Giants favor for years. Mcadoo's 1st year was a fluke and it was the defense that won games. The offense was still atrocious that year and the year after. It's why the defense destroyed the lockerrrom.
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Post by thetruth on Nov 14, 2019 14:00:44 GMT -5
Then what? Firing the coach means that he's not performing up to the expectations of the roster. What were your expectations of the roster? or anyone that think Shurmur should be gone. Im curious. Read my statement again and then read your response and tell me if your response makes any sense to you. Misread. Noted So whats your take on Shurmur?
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Post by scoostraw on Nov 14, 2019 14:02:56 GMT -5
Sorry, but it's not the way they do things Quit dashing my hopes FB!!
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Post by DandyDon on Nov 14, 2019 14:04:40 GMT -5
Mara was reportedly furious after the game on Sunday. And you generally dont hear anything from him during the season anyway. I dont know if Shurmur gets another year, but you not hearing anything from DG or Mara is not evidence of anything. I think it will depend on how the rest of the season goes. I would bet money that DG will still be here, but not Shurmur. I'd be a bit surprised if they fired Shurmur, even if we lose the rest of the games. Not shocked, but I do not expect them to fire him. I dont know. We have now had 2 different players publicly admit they either dont know what they are supposed to be doing, or that they haven't practiced for their stated position. Put that together with an obviously furious owner, and my bet is Shurmur is going to be told during this bye week that his ass is on the line. Just MO.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 14:07:49 GMT -5
I'd be a bit surprised if they fired Shurmur, even if we lose the rest of the games. Not shocked, but I do not expect them to fire him. I dont know. We have now had 2 different players publicly admit they either dont know what they are supposed to be doing, or that they haven't practiced for their stated position. Put that together with an obviously furious owner, and my bet is Shurmur is going to be told during this bye week that his ass is on the line. Just MO. Bettcher and Hunter will go before Shurmur. It's the Giants way
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Post by jimmieray on Nov 14, 2019 14:12:48 GMT -5
I'd be a bit surprised if they fired Shurmur, even if we lose the rest of the games. Not shocked, but I do not expect them to fire him. I dont know. We have now had 2 different players publicly admit they either dont know what they are supposed to be doing, or that they haven't practiced for their stated position. Put that together with an obviously furious owner, and my bet is Shurmur is going to be told during this bye week that his ass is on the line. Just MO. I'm all for MO as the replacement coach. Larry, Curly, or even Shemp would give me more hope.
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Post by Kruunch on Nov 14, 2019 14:13:37 GMT -5
I dont know. We have now had 2 different players publicly admit they either dont know what they are supposed to be doing, or that they haven't practiced for their stated position. Put that together with an obviously furious owner, and my bet is Shurmur is going to be told during this bye week that his ass is on the line. Just MO. Bettcher and Hunter will go before Shurmur. It's the Giants way That’s the Giants way when the head coach was Tom Coughlin. In this case our head coach has done nothing but lose as a head coach. Also the Giants way was to wait till the offseason before making any significant changes. That went out the window when Mara fired McAdoo and Reese mid season. The Giants are a loyal and patient franchise, consistent losing will not always be met with patience.
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Post by jmike on Nov 14, 2019 14:29:18 GMT -5
Read my statement again and then read your response and tell me if your response makes any sense to you. Misread. Noted So whats your take on Shurmur? I think he is an awful game day HC. He has made entirely too many game day errors IMO. This alone will make him a coach worth firing because it doesn't matter what else he does well. If he can't make winning decisions on game day he will not consistently win in the NFL regardless of the quality of the roster. I also think that the media response influences his decisions, which is a death knell in the NY market. So forgetting everything else, each of these two reasons alone means he should be let go IMO. Both together is just a disaster.
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