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Post by TheAnalyst on Feb 9, 2020 18:33:04 GMT -5
Doesnt mean it isnt correct though. Especially his asking price to the Giants since we have draft picks already invested in him and he has the leverage. The whole leverage thing is an illusion The 3rd that is given could be the Collins comp pick and a 4th next year if signed or a 5th if not. No big deal. An illusion? I think you are misinformed. Leonard and his agent have most the leverage over the Giants, outside of tagging him. The Collins comp pick is after the 3rd round in 2020. Basically a 4th. The Jets just got the 4th pick in the 3rd round, and a 4th or 5th. The William's comp pick would be for 2021, but depends on if we are spending in 2020.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 9, 2020 18:34:42 GMT -5
Doesnt mean it isnt correct though. Especially his asking price to the Giants since we have draft picks already invested in him and he has the leverage. The whole leverage thing is an illusion The 3rd that is given could be the Collins comp pick and a 4th next year if signed or a 5th if not. No big deal. leverage is an illusion? Do do you any negotiation in your line of work? This is what i heard prior to thanksgiving, the 'myth' of leverage. You know, when the Giants were supposed to have signed Williams because of goodwill back in October. Why hasn't he signed yet? (hint: leverage has a lot to do with it) How can the Giants trade a comp pick they have yet to be awarded from the Collins transaction? they dont get awarded comp picks until a few weeks before the draft. The pick they traded was the Giants 3rd round pick, regardless, we traded third round draft capital for.. what exactly? this is an absolutely moronic decision from our GM, considering the depth at talent in interior DL in this FA period. However, Im sure Gettlemen has a plan. Lets wait and find out
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southerner
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Post by southerner on Feb 9, 2020 18:37:25 GMT -5
That's about what I said day 1 after the trade. He would take us to the cleaners the least and he wont take a discount. As bad as it looks for Gettleman making that awful dumb trade he needs to let him walk if that is true. That money needs to go elsewhere. Egg on face. Perhaps he does, perhaps he doesn’t...let’s wait and see but Gettleman knew something when he made this trade so we will see. The Giants were definitely better with him and he is durable as heck. You just might be surprised what he ends up taking, as long as guarantees are in place for a good portion of the deal and his durability makes that a very real consideration for the Giants to consider.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 9, 2020 18:38:01 GMT -5
The whole leverage thing is an illusion The 3rd that is given could be the Collins comp pick and a 4th next year if signed or a 5th if not. No big deal. An illusion? I think you are misinformed. Leonard and his agent have most the leverage over the Giants, outside of tagging him. The Collins comp pick is after the 3rd round in 2020. Basically a 4th. The Jets just got the 4th pick in the 3rd round, and a 4th or 5th. The William's comp pick would be for 2021, but depends on if we are spending in 2020. People want to believe in our management. I dont get what management has done to deserve this credit but it is what it is.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 9, 2020 18:38:52 GMT -5
That's about what I said day 1 after the trade. He would take us to the cleaners the least and he wont take a discount. As bad as it looks for Gettleman making that awful dumb trade he needs to let him walk if that is true. That money needs to go elsewhere. Egg on face. Perhaps he does, perhaps he doesn’t...let’s wait and see but Gettleman knew something when he made this trade so we will see. The Giants were definitely better with him and he is durable as heck. You just might be surprised what he ends up taking, as long as guarantees are in place for a good portion of the deal and his durability makes that a very real consideration for the Giants to consider. Gettlemen showed that he didn't understand how comp picks were awarded when he thought we'd simply get a pick back if Williams didn't sign. Im not sure what to call that other than moronic
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Post by DandyDon on Feb 9, 2020 18:38:58 GMT -5
He could be seeking a 10 year deal and 50 mill guaranteed too. Doesn't mean anyone is giving it to him.
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Post by TEM on Feb 9, 2020 18:39:44 GMT -5
The whole leverage thing is an illusion The 3rd that is given could be the Collins comp pick and a 4th next year if signed or a 5th if not. No big deal. An illusion? I think you are misinformed. Leonard and his agent have most the leverage over the Giants, outside of tagging him. The Collins comp pick is after the 3rd round in 2020. Basically a 4th. The Jets just got the 4th pick in the 3rd round, and a 4th or 5th. The William's comp pick would be for 2021, but depends on if we are spending in 2020. I disagree about the 3rd round pick it was not specified . The 4th or 5th round picks have yet to be determined. It could be in the top 10. Could be in the lower 3rd. Again unspecified. www.sny.tv/giants/news/giants-trade-for-jets-de-leonard-williams/311310578
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Post by TEM on Feb 9, 2020 18:42:20 GMT -5
The whole leverage thing is an illusion The 3rd that is given could be the Collins comp pick and a 4th next year if signed or a 5th if not. No big deal. leverage is an illusion? Do do you any negotiation in your line of work? This is what i heard prior to thanksgiving, the 'myth' of leverage. You know, when the Giants were supposed to have signed Williams because of goodwill back in October. Why hasn't he signed yet? (hint: leverage has a lot to do with it) How can the Giants trade a comp pick they have yet to be awarded from the Collins transaction? t hey dont get awarded comp picks until a few weeks before the draft. The pick they traded was the Giants 3rd round pick, regardless, we traded third round draft capital for.. what exactly? this is an absolutely moronic decision from our GM, considering the depth at talent in interior DL in this FA period. However, Im sure Gettlemen has a plan. Lets wait and find out That does not mean the Giants can not decide what 3rd round pick the Jets get . The Giants can decide 2 seconds into the 3 round what pick the Jets get if they chose to.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 9, 2020 18:47:59 GMT -5
leverage is an illusion? Do do you any negotiation in your line of work? This is what i heard prior to thanksgiving, the 'myth' of leverage. You know, when the Giants were supposed to have signed Williams because of goodwill back in October. Why hasn't he signed yet? (hint: leverage has a lot to do with it) How can the Giants trade a comp pick they have yet to be awarded from the Collins transaction? t hey dont get awarded comp picks until a few weeks before the draft. The pick they traded was the Giants 3rd round pick, regardless, we traded third round draft capital for.. what exactly? this is an absolutely moronic decision from our GM, considering the depth at talent in interior DL in this FA period. However, Im sure Gettlemen has a plan. Lets wait and find out That does not mean the Giants can not decide what 3rd round pick the Jets get . The Giants can decide 2 seconds into the 3 round what pick the Jets get if they chose to. I can't seem to understand how they can contractually agree to a pick that hasn't even been given to the Giants. Regardless. Its a bad decision no matter where in the third round the Jets will get this pick. Particularly when you look at the pool of talent in the interior DL this FA period. Williams isn't even the best player available
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Post by TEM on Feb 9, 2020 18:50:23 GMT -5
If the deal was written the way it is reported. The Giants can give the Jets any 3rd round pick they have if they chose to in the 2020 draft,
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Post by IrishMike on Feb 9, 2020 18:53:14 GMT -5
1) He could ask for 50 mil a year, he could ask for 1 mil a year. Clickbait.
2) I don't think his market value will be that high, especially if some of these better pass rushers hit the market too. I like Williams but from a pure pass rush stand point he won't get the looks these other guys get.
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Post by TEM on Feb 9, 2020 18:53:49 GMT -5
That does not mean the Giants can not decide what 3rd round pick the Jets get . The Giants can decide 2 seconds into the 3 round what pick the Jets get if they chose to. I can't seem to understand how they can contractually agree to a pick that hasn't even been given to the Giants. Regardless. Its a bad decision no matter where in the third round the Jets will get this pick. Particularly when you look at the pool of talent in the interior DL this FA period. Williams isn't even the best player available I have used ambiguity in vendor contracts to my advantage for my company. If the open the door. What keeps you from waking into it. Come on Carl that is the way the world works. If you do not spell it out . Oh well.
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Post by IrishMike on Feb 9, 2020 18:55:35 GMT -5
That does not mean the Giants can not decide what 3rd round pick the Jets get . The Giants can decide 2 seconds into the 3 round what pick the Jets get if they chose to. I can't seem to understand how they can contractually agree to a pick that hasn't even been given to the Giants. Regardless. Its a bad decision no matter where in the third round the Jets will get this pick. Particularly when you look at the pool of talent in the interior DL this FA period. Williams isn't even the best player available TEM is drunk so let me jump in here and help explain.
In the past teams have agreed to a trade but before the draft order is determined so the trade contract says "a 2020 3rd round pick", then that team ends up with a normal 3rd round pick and a 3rd round comp pick and choose to give the 3rd round comp pick.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 9, 2020 19:12:46 GMT -5
I can't seem to understand how they can contractually agree to a pick that hasn't even been given to the Giants. Regardless. Its a bad decision no matter where in the third round the Jets will get this pick. Particularly when you look at the pool of talent in the interior DL this FA period. Williams isn't even the best player available I have used ambiguity in vendor contracts to my advantage for my company. If the open the door. What keeps you from waking into it. Come on Carl that is the way the world works. If you do not spell it out . Oh well. cool. Wether you believe it or not, leverage matters. Its evident who has leverage in this negotiation and hint, its not the Giants
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Post by thetruth on Feb 9, 2020 19:15:10 GMT -5
I can't seem to understand how they can contractually agree to a pick that hasn't even been given to the Giants. Regardless. Its a bad decision no matter where in the third round the Jets will get this pick. Particularly when you look at the pool of talent in the interior DL this FA period. Williams isn't even the best player available TEM is drunk so let me jump in here and help explain.
In the past teams have agreed to a trade but before the draft order is determined so the trade contract says "a 2020 3rd round pick", then that team ends up with a normal 3rd round pick and a 3rd round comp pick and choose to give the 3rd round comp pick.
So you're saying we have the choice to give the Jets a third round pick? can you provide evidence or even precedence of this occurring? it would be news to me. My main point is that regardless, its a foolish decision from our GM.
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southerner
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Post by southerner on Feb 9, 2020 19:24:12 GMT -5
Perhaps he does, perhaps he doesn’t...let’s wait and see but Gettleman knew something when he made this trade so we will see. The Giants were definitely better with him and he is durable as heck. You just might be surprised what he ends up taking, as long as guarantees are in place for a good portion of the deal and his durability makes that a very real consideration for the Giants to consider. Gettlemen showed that he didn't understand how comp picks were awarded when he thought we'd simply get a pick back if Williams didn't sign. Im not sure what to call that other than moronic Oh please....your comment is ludicrous. Maybe your dog will believe you.
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Post by TEM on Feb 9, 2020 19:26:43 GMT -5
I have used ambiguity in vendor contracts to my advantage for my company. If the open the door. What keeps you from waking into it. Come on Carl that is the way the world works. If you do not spell it out . Oh well. cool. Wether you believe it or not, leverage matters. Its evident who has leverage in this negotiation and hint, its not the Giants Advantage is always with the payer. The paying entity always has the ultimate choice on what it is willing to give. The recipient only has a guess if the grass is greener or not for them. " the truth" is the paying party always has the next man up contingent. The recipient only has a gamble if they will receive an equal or better offer .
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Post by thetruth on Feb 9, 2020 19:38:25 GMT -5
Gettlemen showed that he didn't understand how comp picks were awarded when he thought we'd simply get a pick back if Williams didn't sign. Im not sure what to call that other than moronic Oh please....your comment is ludicrous. Maybe your dog will believe you. The trade makes more sense when you realize Gettlemen doesn't know how comp picks work, so theres that. No need to get defensive. Shows insecurity
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Post by thetruth on Feb 9, 2020 19:41:20 GMT -5
cool. Wether you believe it or not, leverage matters. Its evident who has leverage in this negotiation and hint, its not the Giants Advantage is always with the payer. The paying entity always has the ultimate choice on what it is willing to give. The recipient only has a guess if the grass is greener or not for them. " the truth" is the paying party always has the next man up contingent. The recipient only has a gamble if they will receive an equal or better offer . Not sure you understand how leverage works. As a FA, Williams has the leverage. Now as a FA who has a team foolishly trading valuable draft picks (3rd and 4th/5th) to secure your services for 8 games you now have a lot more leverage in negotiations with that team. Williams can take any deal offered in FA and take it back to the Giants as he knows the Giants will overcompensate to try and save face and not have their draft capital flushed down the toilet for literally...... nothing. the "payer" does not have the leverage in this negotiation in particular. Williams has it all.
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Post by Delicreep on Feb 9, 2020 19:41:23 GMT -5
cool. Wether you believe it or not, leverage matters. Its evident who has leverage in this negotiation and hint, its not the Giants Advantage is always with the payer. The paying entity always has the ultimate choice on what it is willing to give. The recipient only has a guess if the grass is greener or not for them. " the truth" is the paying party always has the next man up contingent. The recipient only has a gamble if they will receive an equal or better offer . Williams has a slightly different position: he could, in theory, shop his services knowing the Giants will outbid them. Of course, if he wants the money, the Giants only need to beat that price by a million of so, if that. If he doesn't, the Giants are ****ed. Here's the one thing I know: Williams is about to become the first FA who was overpaid.
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Post by Delicreep on Feb 9, 2020 19:43:14 GMT -5
Oh please....your comment is ludicrous. Maybe your dog will believe you. The trade makes more sense when you realize Gettlemen doesn't know how comp picks work, so theres that. No need to get defensive. Shows insecurity Am I wrong? setting aside FA signings, losing Williams would trigger a 3rd round comp pick in 2021, just as Collins triggered one in 2020.
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Post by Fletch842 on Feb 9, 2020 19:52:52 GMT -5
The trade makes more sense when you realize Gettlemen doesn't know how comp picks work, so theres that. No need to get defensive. Shows insecurity Am I wrong? setting aside FA signings, losing Williams would trigger a 3rd round comp pick in 2021, just as Collins triggered one in 2020. I'm pretty sure that if we get outbid for Williams and don't sign other high priced FA's (I believe that this also plays into the formula), we would get a 3rd round comp pick in 2021.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 9, 2020 19:53:06 GMT -5
The trade makes more sense when you realize Gettlemen doesn't know how comp picks work, so theres that. No need to get defensive. Shows insecurity Am I wrong? setting aside FA signings, losing Williams would trigger a 3rd round comp pick in 2021, just as Collins triggered one in 2020. you cant set aside FA signings Essientially, comp picks are awarded if a team (from a net prespective) loses more than it gains in FA. Therefore, if we lose Williams and make very few FA signings then yes, we could be eligible for a nice comp. However, we will likely splurge in FA (due to the current state of this roster) and if we sign players of equal value (amalgamated) we wont get a thing.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 9, 2020 19:54:38 GMT -5
Am I wrong? setting aside FA signings, losing Williams would trigger a 3rd round comp pick in 2021, just as Collins triggered one in 2020. I'm pretty sure that if we get outbid for Williams and don't sign other high priced FA's (I believe that this also plays into the formula), we would get a 3rd round comp pick in 2021. more than likely - yes. We could get a 3rd round comp if we spend little in FA. Bringing the net loss of the deal to just a 5th rounder, for nothing However, we will then have tremendous holes in lots of different position groups as we hypothetically will not be "spending" in FA given this scenario. The problem? With no 3rd or 5th round picks this year to compensate it will be even more challenging to put out a competitive roster next fall. However, given DG's generally crapiness in signing FA's I dont know if this is a bad thing again, a bad decision from this GM no matter how you look at it
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Feb 9, 2020 20:30:26 GMT -5
I don't know what a lot of money is anymore. But if the cap is around 200 mil and Williams wants 15 mil that's like 7.5 % of the cap for a starter that's going to play 75% or more of the defensive plays. Is that a lot ? And if that's his opening salvo it might not be written in stone. Perhaps less with guaranteed money ? First 2 years guaranteed an option on the 3rd ? Don't really feel it's that risky, especially with room on the cap.
I just assumed we were signing him when we traded for him. I guess it comes down to how Judge assess him in his defense.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 9, 2020 20:37:33 GMT -5
That's about what I said day 1 after the trade. He would take us to the cleaners the least and he wont take a discount. As bad as it looks for Gettleman making that awful dumb trade he needs to let him walk if that is true. That money needs to go elsewhere. Egg on face. We extended Justin Tuck for an absolute bargain of a deal and Williams sure as hell ain't no Tuck, who could have leveraged his super bowl performance against us. So if this guy is going to usee the Giants having painting themselves in a corner to get money that not even a far better lineman asked for, then adios and at least we don't lose the third rounder. But man, if that goes down, giving the jets a fourth rounder, which is more like a late third, for a rental on a 4 win team? What indeed was Gettleman thinking. ...unless his "thinking" is to actually overpay Williams AND lose two picks. And the only way this remotely works in our favor is if the new coaching bails him out and elevates Williams' game back to 2015 levels. If they don't sign him Jets get a 3rd and a 5th if they sign him it turns into a 4th, I'm staying middle of the road on this If some one signs him for 14 or 15 mill they will get a 3rd back most likely . Tuck I loved a great Giant but in todays NFL where OV got 17 mill a year Tuck would have been a Bargain at 15 mill and he would have gotten it. DL money is in sane and for guys who can bring it from the inside or outside it is through the roof Tuck would be in the 15 to 17 mill range today.
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Post by IrishMike on Feb 9, 2020 20:41:32 GMT -5
TEM is drunk so let me jump in here and help explain.
In the past teams have agreed to a trade but before the draft order is determined so the trade contract says "a 2020 3rd round pick", then that team ends up with a normal 3rd round pick and a 3rd round comp pick and choose to give the 3rd round comp pick.
So you're saying we have the choice to give the Jets a third round pick? can you provide evidence or even precedence of this occurring? it would be news to me. My main point is that regardless, its a foolish decision from our GM. I'm saying it is possible. I can't provide proof because I don't have the contract in front of me. There is precedence of this happening in the past, but since it is foolish either way I'm not going to bother looking it up.
It's bad because if we don't sign Williams it was a waste and a lost gamble. If we do sign him then it's easier to swallow but I don't want to pay a larger sum than we think he is worth simply so the deal isn't a complete loss. Don't throw good money at bad money is the old poker saying.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Feb 9, 2020 20:44:08 GMT -5
For those who keep saying we would get a 3rd back for losing William's, that means we didnt spend on a big FA this offseason. Would you rather have that at 3rd or sign.... Ngakoue? Give me Ngakoue over Williams. Which means we dont get the 3rd round pick and lost the 3rd and 5th round picks to the Jets for nothing. So really, signing Ngakoue costs us 2 3rds and a 5th while singn Williams costs us 2 3rds and a 4th. I hope that makes sense lol
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 9, 2020 20:44:50 GMT -5
If the deal was written the way it is reported. The Giants can give the Jets any 3rd round pick they have if they chose to in the 2020 draft, In the end if he signs else where they will get a3rd rounder back in 2021 because they aren't gonna over spend on out see help. If they do it would be a shock.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 9, 2020 20:49:24 GMT -5
For those who keep saying we would get a 3rd back for losing William's, that means we didnt spend on a big FA this offseason. Would you rather have that at 3rd or sign.... Ngakoue? Give me Ngakoue over Williams. Which means we dont get the 3rd round pick and lost the 3rd and 5th round picks to the Jets for nothing It means we didn't sign a player for 15mill or more. they can spend 70 mill on 6 players and still get a comp pick it isn't how much you spend as a whole it is wether you sign someone to equal or higher money.
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