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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 23, 2020 14:10:55 GMT -5
Guess people are not paying attention Jones he carried that teams defense to the superbowl. Donald is a great player but I'm not sure guys like jones aren't his equal Word is that he's on the trading block. They are tight to the cap and he is gonna want more then Donald he was a linch pin for a Superbowl winning defense.
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Post by DandyDon on Mar 23, 2020 14:17:53 GMT -5
I wouldn't give him any 72 hour ultimatum. If they tagged him just to try and get a deal and believe no deal will happen, he could screw them by signing the tag before they could rescind it. Norman actually tried to do that in Carolina, but he was too late. And he technically could be talking to other teams right now. It's tough with the 2 first round pick penalty, but he could be seeing what the market is if they rescind the tag. I would. He can sign the tag, they tendered it. I wouldn't pull it, I'd simply force him to make either the long term or short term decision now. I'm confused - you said "I'd be ready to rescind the offer at all times." Now you are saying you wouldnt pull it?
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 23, 2020 17:29:41 GMT -5
I would. He can sign the tag, they tendered it. I wouldn't pull it, I'd simply force him to make either the long term or short term decision now. I'm confused - you said "I'd be ready to rescind the offer at all times." Now you are saying you wouldnt pull it? No, sorry I wasn't clear. I'm saying I'd give him 72 hours to make the decision or then I'd rescind it. If he signed it - or my long term offer - before that, that's fine.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 24, 2020 9:15:26 GMT -5
I didn't say Minshew is better. I said he had a better year. In what way did Daniel Jones have a better year than Gardner Minshew in your view? I listed the accomplishments of both for last season it's pretty obvious that Jones had a better season while losing SQ ,Golden Tate not much of an O line or Defense to help him but still did well .Yet from your post you are sure I am wrong please tell us why you think he was better than Jones? If you did the same for Gardner Minshew with his rookie season in Jax history, you'd have an even more impressive comparison.
Personally, I like Jones' upside better. But Minshew was better than Jones last year in essentially every way.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2020 9:53:22 GMT -5
I listed the accomplishments of both for last season it's pretty obvious that Jones had a better season while losing SQ ,Golden Tate not much of an O line or Defense to help him but still did well .Yet from your post you are sure I am wrong please tell us why you think he was better than Jones? If you did the same for Gardner Minshew with his rookie season in Jax history, you'd have an even more impressive comparison.
Personally, I like Jones' upside better. But Minshew was better than Jones last year in essentially every way.
That's the way most fans of this game see it.. Good luck with the rest of this conversation..
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 24, 2020 12:58:08 GMT -5
I didn't say Minshew is better. I said he had a better year. In what way did Daniel Jones have a better year than Gardner Minshew in your view? I listed the accomplishments of both for last season it's pretty obvious that Jones had a better season while losing SQ ,Golden Tate not much of an O line or Defense to help him but still did well .Yet from your post you are sure I am wrong please tell us why you think he was better than Jones? Minshew is a good QB we will see how they do as time goes on I liked him at washington as a late round sleeper and I liked Stidham. Jones I liked because he never had it easy week in and week out he had to work for it wasn't sure how it would translate so far so good.
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Post by thetruth on Mar 24, 2020 13:02:19 GMT -5
...And let's have a collective moment of honesty here. What did all of you think when you heard about the trade?I assume it wasn't far from my reaction. I thought...."This is awesome, obviously there is an agreement in place for a long term deal". I think we all thought the same thing. Because it's the ONLY way this deal made sense. No one thought..."Let's let him play it out and then tag him for $16+MM". If any of you claim you did, you aren't being honest. This trade is now in salvage mode. Dave is desperately trying to save it. Maybe he'll pull it out. We will see. Either way, making this trade for a guy at the end of his contract....without a deal in place made no sense. It just didn't. Thought it was terrible, especially when you have a guy whos just 8 games away from FA. Why would Williams agree to a new deal before FA? foolish. The tag is just a sunk cost fallacy. If i was this inadequate at my job i'd been fired a long time ago.
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Post by thetruth on Mar 24, 2020 13:05:42 GMT -5
That's why I would sign that tag immediately if I'm Leonard Williams. I had also heard that he might file a grievance with the NFLPA because he considers himself a DE with the Giants.
The longer he goes without the signing the tag the better. I'd be ready to rescind the offer at all times. If I felt like we weren't getting anywhere in negotiations I'd probably out a best and final on the table and tell him he's got 72 hours to sign one of them or go to market and get what you can. The picks are gone, no point in throwing good money after bad. The Giants trading for LW was the best thing that ever happened to him. He gained all the leverage. I would bet that if we hadn't traded for him, we could have signed him to a deal more in the $13MM/year range AND kept our 3rd and 5th simply by waiting until FA, i mean, we were a 2-6 and going nowhere prior to the trade, makes sense right? With DG doubling down on a bad decision, the long term deal will not start with negotiations at ~$15MM/16MM per year. As per the tag.
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 24, 2020 13:18:25 GMT -5
The longer he goes without the signing the tag the better. I'd be ready to rescind the offer at all times. If I felt like we weren't getting anywhere in negotiations I'd probably out a best and final on the table and tell him he's got 72 hours to sign one of them or go to market and get what you can. The picks are gone, no point in throwing good money after bad. The Giants trading for LW was the best thing that ever happened to him. He gained all the leverage. I would bet that if we hadn't traded for him, we could have signed him to a deal more in the $13MM/year range AND kept our 3rd and 5th simply by waiting until FA, i mean, we were a 2-6 and going nowhere prior to the trade, makes sense right? With DG doubling down on a bad decision, the long term deal will not start with negotiations at ~$15MM/16MM per year. As per the tag. Absolutely it was. I have no idea what might've happened in a hypothetical scenario. I agree with that, like I said, I'd handle it as I posted above. what's done is done, don't compound it. Force him to make a decision or cut him loose and if he plays for the transition tag, I'd be looking for a trade all year because it's my fault for giving him that leverage in the first place.
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 24, 2020 16:07:40 GMT -5
The longer he goes without the signing the tag the better. I'd be ready to rescind the offer at all times. If I felt like we weren't getting anywhere in negotiations I'd probably out a best and final on the table and tell him he's got 72 hours to sign one of them or go to market and get what you can. The picks are gone, no point in throwing good money after bad. The Giants trading for LW was the best thing that ever happened to him. He gained all the leverage. I would bet that if we hadn't traded for him, we could have signed him to a deal more in the $13MM/year range AND kept our 3rd and 5th simply by waiting until FA, i mean, we were a 2-6 and going nowhere prior to the trade, makes sense right? With DG doubling down on a bad decision, the long term deal will not start with negotiations at ~$15MM/16MM per year. As per the tag. Now I am not saying I would do this if I were DG, but...there are two time elements in play here, which LW agent certainly knows. One is the time the Giants negotiate with him...which have to end one way or another on a fixed date. The other one is when do all of the teams looking for a player like LW run out or low on cap space or sign someone else...that one is very much out of LW's control. And his agent can't talk to any of them. So while the world goes spinning on, for LW it stands still, only he watches it pass him by. If he wants a long term deal, he's going to have to deal with that...and at any point, the Giants can pull the tag, which I would suggest could leave a player of Williams fairly middle of the road skill set with not much. I would guess that when Clowney signs, that tells the agent all he needs to know about what he can get.
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Post by thetruth on Mar 24, 2020 16:33:59 GMT -5
The Giants trading for LW was the best thing that ever happened to him. He gained all the leverage. I would bet that if we hadn't traded for him, we could have signed him to a deal more in the $13MM/year range AND kept our 3rd and 5th simply by waiting until FA, i mean, we were a 2-6 and going nowhere prior to the trade, makes sense right? With DG doubling down on a bad decision, the long term deal will not start with negotiations at ~$15MM/16MM per year. As per the tag. Now I am not saying I would do this if I were DG, but...there are two time elements in play here, which LW agent certainly knows. One is the time the Giants negotiate with him...which have to end one way or another on a fixed date. The other one is when do all of the teams looking for a player like LW run out or low on cap space or sign someone else...that one is very much out of LW's control. And his agent can't talk to any of them. So while the world goes spinning on, for LW it stands still, only he watches it pass him by. If he wants a long term deal, he's going to have to deal with that...and at any point, the Giants can pull the tag, which I would suggest could leave a player of Williams fairly middle of the road skill set with not much. I would guess that when Clowney signs, that tells the agent all he needs to know about what he can get. Sunk cost fallacy tells me that DG has no choice but to sign Williams to a long term contract. Williams camp knows DG wants to save face. Or else why give a player of Williams skill set a franchise tag designation? it only gives Williams more leverage, worst case scenario for him is plays this year on the tag and becomes a FA next year. More cap space around the league --> more cash for Williams. Williams now starts negotiations at the franchise tag amount, why wouldn't he? sigh. Can't believe the Giants are in this situation. LW is sitting pretty right now
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 24, 2020 17:43:52 GMT -5
Now I am not saying I would do this if I were DG, but...there are two time elements in play here, which LW agent certainly knows. One is the time the Giants negotiate with him...which have to end one way or another on a fixed date. The other one is when do all of the teams looking for a player like LW run out or low on cap space or sign someone else...that one is very much out of LW's control. And his agent can't talk to any of them. So while the world goes spinning on, for LW it stands still, only he watches it pass him by. If he wants a long term deal, he's going to have to deal with that...and at any point, the Giants can pull the tag, which I would suggest could leave a player of Williams fairly middle of the road skill set with not much. I would guess that when Clowney signs, that tells the agent all he needs to know about what he can get. Sunk cost fallacy tells me that DG has no choice but to sign Williams to a long term contract. Williams camp knows DG wants to save face. Or else why give a player of Williams skill set a franchise tag designation? it only gives Williams more leverage, worst case scenario for him is plays this year on the tag and becomes a FA next year. More cap space around the league --> more cash for Williams. Williams now starts negotiations at the franchise tag amount, why wouldn't he? sigh. Can't believe the Giants are in this situation. LW is sitting pretty right now I'm going to set aside the sunk cost fallacy...mainly because in this case, it will only make matters worse for DG. Try this one - Can LW get a contract on the open market paying him $16+MM? Obviously, he can't. But he has a starting point with the Giants that almost positively has a higher base than he is going to get elsewhere. So work out a deal, or run the risk of the tag being pulled and taking what I think we would both agree would be a pretty good hit to the wallet. He certainly can play hardball, but I am certain his agent is looking at that second clock, knowing that if they push too long/hard, he could be left in much less in his wallet.
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 24, 2020 21:11:31 GMT -5
Sunk cost fallacy tells me that DG has no choice but to sign Williams to a long term contract. Williams camp knows DG wants to save face. Or else why give a player of Williams skill set a franchise tag designation? it only gives Williams more leverage, worst case scenario for him is plays this year on the tag and becomes a FA next year. More cap space around the league --> more cash for Williams. Williams now starts negotiations at the franchise tag amount, why wouldn't he? sigh. Can't believe the Giants are in this situation. LW is sitting pretty right now I'm going to set aside the sunk cost fallacy...mainly because in this case, it will only make matters worse for DG. Try this one - Can LW get a contract on the open market paying him $16+MM? Obviously, he can't. But he has a starting point with the Giants that almost positively has a higher base than he is going to get elsewhere. So work out a deal, or run the risk of the tag being pulled and taking what I think we would both agree would be a pretty good hit to the wallet. He certainly can play hardball, but I am certain his agent is looking at that second clock, knowing that if they push too long/hard, he could be left in much less in his wallet. I agree there's no reason to sign him long term, that's not face saving. I think worst case scenario for him is he plays for the tag this year and either gets hurt or plays crappy. If I'm him, I like $25-$30 million guaranteed over $16M.
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 24, 2020 22:08:24 GMT -5
I'm going to set aside the sunk cost fallacy...mainly because in this case, it will only make matters worse for DG. Try this one - Can LW get a contract on the open market paying him $16+MM? Obviously, he can't. But he has a starting point with the Giants that almost positively has a higher base than he is going to get elsewhere. So work out a deal, or run the risk of the tag being pulled and taking what I think we would both agree would be a pretty good hit to the wallet. He certainly can play hardball, but I am certain his agent is looking at that second clock, knowing that if they push too long/hard, he could be left in much less in his wallet. I agree there's no reason to sign him long term, that's not face saving. I think worst case scenario for him is he plays for the tag this year and either gets hurt or plays crappy. If I'm him, I like $25-$30 million guaranteed over $16M. Do what we did with Cruz Use this year as a pseudo 1st year of a 5 year deal.. Most of your money is front loaded anyway in the 1st 2 years.. Make next year 14 million guaranteed,that's 30 guarenteed ... 13 a year the next 3 years with little guarenteed unless he reaches an incentive in which he gets some guaranteed bonuses ..
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 25, 2020 9:05:40 GMT -5
Minshew is a good QB we will see how they do as time goes on I liked him at washington as a late round sleeper and I liked Stidham. Jones I liked because he never had it easy week in and week out he had to work for it wasn't sure how it would translate so far so good. I agree ,MS said he was better than Jones(last year) all I did was put their stats up from last year and as why he thought he was better? I understand Jones has the fumbling issue but as others have said lets see if Judge can help like Coughlin did Tiki. Minshew Starts: 12. Record: 6-6. 3271 yards. 22 TD's 6 Int's. Passer rating: 91.2. 13 fumbles.
Jones Starts: 12. Record: 3-9 3027 yards. 24 TD's 12 Int's Passer rating:87.7. 18 fumbles.
I think Jones is still the better prospect. His upside I think is higher. But you can't argue that Jones had a better season. Minshew's year was clearly better.
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 25, 2020 11:01:41 GMT -5
I agree ,MS said he was better than Jones(last year) all I did was put their stats up from last year and as why he thought he was better? I understand Jones has the fumbling issue but as others have said lets see if Judge can help like Coughlin did Tiki. Minshew Starts: 12. Record: 6-6. 3271 yards. 22 TD's 6 Int's. Passer rating: 91.2. 13 fumbles.
Jones Starts: 12. Record: 3-9 3027 yards. 24 TD's 12 Int's Passer rating:87.7. 18 fumbles.
I think Jones is still the better prospect. His upside I think is higher. But you can't argue that Jones had a better season. Minshew's year was clearly better.
That's a lot closer than I thought. I thought Minshew's numbers would be decidedly better, not slightly. He's better on TOs.
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Post by Kruunch on Mar 25, 2020 11:05:57 GMT -5
Minshew Starts: 12. Record: 6-6. 3271 yards. 22 TD's 6 Int's. Passer rating: 91.2. 13 fumbles.
Jones Starts: 12. Record: 3-9 3027 yards. 24 TD's 12 Int's Passer rating:87.7. 18 fumbles.
I think Jones is still the better prospect. His upside I think is higher. But you can't argue that Jones had a better season. Minshew's year was clearly better.
That's a lot closer than I thought. I thought Minshew's numbers would be decidedly better, not slightly. He's better on TOs. To be fair. Everyone not named Jamesis Winston is better in the turnovers department.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 25, 2020 11:35:47 GMT -5
Minshew Starts: 12. Record: 6-6. 3271 yards. 22 TD's 6 Int's. Passer rating: 91.2. 13 fumbles.
Jones Starts: 12. Record: 3-9 3027 yards. 24 TD's 12 Int's Passer rating:87.7. 18 fumbles.
I think Jones is still the better prospect. His upside I think is higher. But you can't argue that Jones had a better season. Minshew's year was clearly better.
That's a lot closer than I thought. I thought Minshew's numbers would be decidedly better, not slightly. He's better on TOs. 11 fewer turnovers with equal or better production. That's almost 1 per game.
And my concern about Jones isn't so much the fumbles....It's the reason for the fumbles. I don't think it's really as much about ball security as it is pocket awareness. THAT isn't easy to fix. He simply doesn't seem to know when the pocket is collapsing.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 25, 2020 12:19:29 GMT -5
I agree there's no reason to sign him long term, that's not face saving. I think worst case scenario for him is he plays for the tag this year and either gets hurt or plays crappy. If I'm him, I like $25-$30 million guaranteed over $16M. Do what we did with Cruz Use this year as a pseudo 1st year of a 5 year deal.. Most of your money is front loaded anyway in the 1st 2 years.. Make next year 14 million guaranteed,that's 30 guarenteed ... 13 a year the next 3 years with little guarenteed unless he reaches an incentive in which he gets some guaranteed bonuses .. The only change would be to use the roster bonus format. lets you truly front end load a contract, with Cruz because of the injury and then a calf that was serious there was nothing he or the club could do out of the first 3 years 2.5 were spent on injured reserve just bad luck. The biggest years were spent in the tub.
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Post by Fletch842 on Mar 25, 2020 14:37:09 GMT -5
That's a lot closer than I thought. I thought Minshew's numbers would be decidedly better, not slightly. He's better on TOs. 11 fewer turnovers with equal or better production. That's almost 1 per game.
And my concern about Jones isn't so much the fumbles....It's the reason for the fumbles. I don't think it's really as much about ball security as it is pocket awareness. THAT isn't easy to fix. He simply doesn't seem to know when the pocket is collapsing.
hopefully after almost a full season of starting, and this offseason to study, his awareness improves nicely.
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Post by jimmieray on Mar 26, 2020 6:21:09 GMT -5
11 fewer turnovers with equal or better production. That's almost 1 per game.
And my concern about Jones isn't so much the fumbles....It's the reason for the fumbles. I don't think it's really as much about ball security as it is pocket awareness. THAT isn't easy to fix. He simply doesn't seem to know when the pocket is collapsing.
hopefully after almost a full season of starting, and this offseason to study, his awareness improves nicely. I feel he needs live exposure to the rush, and with what's going on in sports right now he will not get. It might be a huge risk, but for his assured development he should go stand in the paper goods aisle of Stop and Shop, with that last roll of Charmin tucked against his belly.
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Post by Fletch842 on Mar 26, 2020 7:34:36 GMT -5
hopefully after almost a full season of starting, and this offseason to study, his awareness improves nicely. I feel he needs live exposure to the rush, and with what's going on in sports right now he will not get. It might be a huge risk, but for his assured development he should go stand in the paper goods aisle of Stop and Shop, with that last roll of Charmin tucked against his belly. What, you want to get him killed?!!!!
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Post by GameTime on Mar 26, 2020 7:49:56 GMT -5
That's a lot closer than I thought. I thought Minshew's numbers would be decidedly better, not slightly. He's better on TOs. 11 fewer turnovers with equal or better production. That's almost 1 per game.
And my concern about Jones isn't so much the fumbles....It's the reason for the fumbles. I don't think it's really as much about ball security as it is pocket awareness. THAT isn't easy to fix. He simply doesn't seem to know when the pocket is collapsing.
Its not just being unaware....... I think he also shows some balls by hanging in....longer than he should. Either way it needs be cleaned up
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 26, 2020 8:49:10 GMT -5
11 fewer turnovers with equal or better production. That's almost 1 per game.
And my concern about Jones isn't so much the fumbles....It's the reason for the fumbles. I don't think it's really as much about ball security as it is pocket awareness. THAT isn't easy to fix. He simply doesn't seem to know when the pocket is collapsing.
Its not just being unaware....... I think he also shows some balls by hanging in....longer than he should. Either way it needs be cleaned up Agree he made a lot of throws while taking a hit or about to get crushed, Think as he looks at the film he's gonna realize that more times then not it hurts the team. The courage in the pocket is great but you need to be smart and live to play another play and physically another day. Something Eli took a lot of flack for but came to play every week.
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Post by DandyDon on Mar 26, 2020 10:21:41 GMT -5
Its not just being unaware....... I think he also shows some balls by hanging in....longer than he should. Either way it needs be cleaned up Agree he made a lot of throws while taking a hit or about to get crushed, Think as he looks at the film he's gonna realize that more times then not it hurts the team. The courage in the pocket is great but you need to be smart and live to play another play and physically another day. Something Eli took a lot of flack for but came to play every week.Yup. Eli got bashed for going down too easy, DJ is getting it for hanging tough. I agree he needs to choose his battles better, and I think he will. Maybe taking more advantage of this mobility will help too.
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 26, 2020 10:26:48 GMT -5
Agree he made a lot of throws while taking a hit or about to get crushed, Think as he looks at the film he's gonna realize that more times then not it hurts the team. The courage in the pocket is great but you need to be smart and live to play another play and physically another day. Something Eli took a lot of flack for but came to play every week.Yup. Eli got bashed for going down too easy, DJ is getting it for hanging tough. I agree he needs to choose his battles better, and I think he will. Maybe taking more advantage of this mobility will help too. lol, stop pointing out the hypocrisy you're ruining it for everyone
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 26, 2020 12:19:07 GMT -5
Agree he made a lot of throws while taking a hit or about to get crushed, Think as he looks at the film he's gonna realize that more times then not it hurts the team. The courage in the pocket is great but you need to be smart and live to play another play and physically another day. Something Eli took a lot of flack for but came to play every week.Yup. Eli got bashed for going down too easy, DJ is getting it for hanging tough. I agree he needs to choose his battles better, and I think he will. Maybe taking more advantage of this mobility will help too. Absolutely he will learn the clock is a lot faster in the NFL.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 26, 2020 12:49:08 GMT -5
Agree he made a lot of throws while taking a hit or about to get crushed, Think as he looks at the film he's gonna realize that more times then not it hurts the team. The courage in the pocket is great but you need to be smart and live to play another play and physically another day. Something Eli took a lot of flack for but came to play every week.Yup. Eli got bashed for going down too easy, DJ is getting it for hanging tough. I agree he needs to choose his battles better, and I think he will. Maybe taking more advantage of this mobility will help too. What an odd thing to say. The problem isn't "hanging tough". It's being unaware of the condition of his pocket.
As you already know, that is a very different situation.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 26, 2020 12:50:38 GMT -5
11 fewer turnovers with equal or better production. That's almost 1 per game.
And my concern about Jones isn't so much the fumbles....It's the reason for the fumbles. I don't think it's really as much about ball security as it is pocket awareness. THAT isn't easy to fix. He simply doesn't seem to know when the pocket is collapsing.
giantswire.usatoday.com/2020/03/25/daniel-jones-predicted-to-be-new-york-giants-breakout-player-of-2020/For some reason, the critics keep concentrating on the negatives here. Keep in mind that Jones began the season without Golden Tate (suspension) and then lost Sterling Shepard, Saquon Barkley and Evan Engram for extended stretches. Despite being thrown to the lions, Jones led all rookie quarterbacks with 24 touchdown passes this season, which is the fourth-most by a rookie quarterback in NFL history. Only Baker Mayfield (27, 2018), Peyton Manning (26, 1998) and Russell Wilson (26, 2012) had more. Not bad company. Jones threw a touchdown pass in each of his last 12 games — all in which he started — which is the longest streak by a Giants quarterback since Eli Manning’ 12 in 2008. The Giants’ record is 15 consecutive games from 1962-64 by Hall of Famer Y.A. Tittle. Jones also rushed 279 yards, the third-highest total by a Giants quarterback in the Super Bowl era, surpassed only by Hall of Famer Fran Tarkenton in 1967 and ‘68 (306 and 301 yards, respectively) and Jeff Hostetler, who ran for 273 yards in 1991. Let us not forget Jones tossed for 300-plus yards five times in 2019 and had two four-TD games and five-TD performance. The kid has great upside. If he fixes his pocket awareness problems, he can be a very good NFL QB.
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 26, 2020 13:13:59 GMT -5
Yup. Eli got bashed for going down too easy, DJ is getting it for hanging tough. I agree he needs to choose his battles better, and I think he will. Maybe taking more advantage of this mobility will help too. What an odd thing to say. The problem isn't "hanging tough". It's being unaware of the condition of his pocket.
As you already know, that is a very different situation.
It's the opposite of hanging tough...if you didn't know the threat was there, you were not hanging tough
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