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Post by bringsimmsback on Feb 9, 2020 20:57:38 GMT -5
Advantage is always with the payer. The paying entity always has the ultimate choice on what it is willing to give. The recipient only has a guess if the grass is greener or not for them. " the truth" is the paying party always has the next man up contingent. The recipient only has a gamble if they will receive an equal or better offer . Not sure you understand how leverage works. As a FA, Williams has the leverage. Now as a FA who has a team foolishly trading valuable draft picks (3rd and 4th/5th) to secure your services for 8 games you now have a lot more leverage in negotiations with that team. Williams can take any deal offered in FA and take it back to the Giants as he knows the Giants will overcompensate to try and save face and not have their draft capital flushed down the toilet for literally...... nothing. the "payer" does not have the leverage in this negotiation in particular. Williams has it all. The option to tag is a big factor in leverage as well.
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Post by giantlegacy on Feb 9, 2020 21:00:33 GMT -5
Let him walk and get our 3rd rounder back as a comp pick....We lose a 5th rounder and draft position He is not worth $15mill Jets knew it. The only way we get our 3rd back as a 2021 comp pick is if we dont sign anything more than 1 year deals...... Let's see how that would go over for this crowd
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 9, 2020 21:01:34 GMT -5
1) He could ask for 50 mil a year, he could ask for 1 mil a year. Clickbait. 2) I don't think his market value will be that high, especially if some of these better pass rushers hit the market too. I like Williams but from a pure pass rush stand point he won't get the looks these other guys get. Not so sure he is versatile and he doesn't get the sacks but he is in the QBs face and moving him off his spot all the time, the Kid from Jville is gonna get silly money for 8 sacks and less then 20 QB pressures Williams does that in 4 games while playing stellar against the run.
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Post by giantlegacy on Feb 9, 2020 21:02:36 GMT -5
I thought he may get $15 mil the day we traded for him and felt like he would be worth it. Based on what I've read of what he does against the run and with getting pressure on the QB from up the middle, I think he makes the entire defense better without looking flashy himself. He is a top 5 player against the run and a top 10 player when it comes to impacting the QB. For those who insist on getting a bargain and confident he won't get $15mil on the open market, transition tag him and let him walk if he gets past $12 million. For my part, he will be a bargain at 15 million in a few years, so I say sign him. Since he is a young, high character guy from all accounts, front load a 5-year deal to make CAP management easier down the road. Totally agree Not to mention building around him,Tomlinson (who we should also extend early)and Lawrence with some actual 2nd level playmakers Front load both Lawrence and Tomlinson with 90% of the guarenteed money the next 2 years while we have the cap space...
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 9, 2020 21:03:32 GMT -5
Let him walk and get our 3rd rounder back as a comp pick....We lose a 5th rounder and draft position He is not worth $15mill Jets knew it. The only way we get our 3rd back as a 2021 comp pick is if we dont sign anything more than 1 year deals...... Let's see how that would go over for this crowd LOL wait till they tag him you will here the belly aching from Jersey / NY to down here .
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Post by IrishMike on Feb 9, 2020 21:05:32 GMT -5
1) He could ask for 50 mil a year, he could ask for 1 mil a year. Clickbait. 2) I don't think his market value will be that high, especially if some of these better pass rushers hit the market too. I like Williams but from a pure pass rush stand point he won't get the looks these other guys get. Not so sure he is versatile and he doesn't get the sacks but he is in the QBs face and moving him off his spot all the time, the Kid from Jville is gonna get silly money for 8 sacks and less then 20 QB pressures Williams does that in 4 games while playing stellar against the run. That's the thing is people seeing the sack totals don't think Williams does enough but he is constantly in the backfield getting at the QB. He would have had more sacks I'm sure if our secondary coverage was better too. And yes he plays the run, which has always been crucial for our DLs.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 9, 2020 21:06:52 GMT -5
I thought he may get $15 mil the day we traded for him and felt like he would be worth it. Based on what I've read of what he does against the run and with getting pressure on the QB from up the middle, I think he makes the entire defense better without looking flashy himself. He is a top 5 player against the run and a top 10 player when it comes to impacting the QB. For those who insist on getting a bargain and confident he won't get $15mil on the open market, transition tag him and let him walk if he gets past $12 million. For my part, he will be a bargain at 15 million in a few years, so I say sign him. Since he is a young, high character guy from all accounts, front load a 5-year deal to make CAP management easier down the road. Totally agree Not to mention building around him,Tomlinson (who we should also extend early)and Lawrence with some actual 2nd level playmakers Front load both Lawrence and Tomlinson with 90% of the guarenteed money the next 2 years while we have the cap space... It would be asinine of DG not to keep this group together quite the opposite of what the mob wants this dude is legit.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 9, 2020 21:09:15 GMT -5
Not so sure he is versatile and he doesn't get the sacks but he is in the QBs face and moving him off his spot all the time, the Kid from Jville is gonna get silly money for 8 sacks and less then 20 QB pressures Williams does that in 4 games while playing stellar against the run. That's the thing is people seeing the sack totals don't think Williams does enough but he is constantly in the backfield getting at the QB. He would have had more sacks I'm sure if our secondary coverage was better too. And yes he plays the run, which has always been crucial for our DLs. If they give that kid from J Ville monster money in 2 years they will all be pissed off because he is good but not elite and he is gonna get elite money.
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Post by IrishMike on Feb 9, 2020 21:14:02 GMT -5
That's the thing is people seeing the sack totals don't think Williams does enough but he is constantly in the backfield getting at the QB. He would have had more sacks I'm sure if our secondary coverage was better too. And yes he plays the run, which has always been crucial for our DLs. If they give that kid from J Ville monster money in 2 years they will all be pissed off because he is good but not elite and he is gonna get elite money. I like Ngokue a lot but you are absolutely right that he isn't elite. I would love to have him with our DL but not for the money he's probably going to get. I started thinking recently I doubt we fix the pass rush too much this year. I think with the draft and free agency combined we can greatly improve our OL with a piece or two more, we can get a LB or two added as well to help the D; but it looks like pass rush will be more mid round talent added. Either we get a steal of a player in the mid rounds or it waits another year to really get "that piece".
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gumby
Special Teams
Posts: 1,048
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Post by gumby on Feb 9, 2020 21:14:48 GMT -5
Let's do what the Redskins did and throw money around so we can be 7-9 instead of 5 and 11.
We were a bad team. Williams was a head scratching move that bad teams make. We're not even on the cusp of being .500 let alone being a playoff contender.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 9, 2020 21:18:45 GMT -5
If they give that kid from J Ville monster money in 2 years they will all be pissed off because he is good but not elite and he is gonna get elite money. I like Ngokue a lot but you are absolutely right that he isn't elite. I would love to have him with our DL but not for the money he's probably going to get. I started thinking recently I doubt we fix the pass rush too much this year. I think with the draft and free agency combined we can greatly improve our OL with a piece or two more, we can get a LB or two added as well to help the D; but it looks like pass rush will be more mid round talent added. Either we get a steal of a player in the mid rounds or it waits another year to really get "that piece". I think we are giving up on Carter and guys like Xman way to soon sign golden back or a guy like fowler dip back in the draft and keep building nothing wrong with developing pass rushers 3rd and 4th rounders start to pay off.
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Post by IrishMike on Feb 9, 2020 21:47:42 GMT -5
I like Ngokue a lot but you are absolutely right that he isn't elite. I would love to have him with our DL but not for the money he's probably going to get. I started thinking recently I doubt we fix the pass rush too much this year. I think with the draft and free agency combined we can greatly improve our OL with a piece or two more, we can get a LB or two added as well to help the D; but it looks like pass rush will be more mid round talent added. Either we get a steal of a player in the mid rounds or it waits another year to really get "that piece". I think we are giving up on Carter and guys like Xman way to soon sign golden back or a guy like fowler dip back in the draft and keep building nothing wrong with developing pass rushers 3rd and 4th rounders start to pay off. I agree. I think our pass rush can keep getting better with them gaining experience. I think their ceiling is probably about where Golden is, which is fine. We don't have that Strahan potential for 20 sacks / 100+ sack career type guy and I don't think we get him this year.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Feb 9, 2020 21:53:44 GMT -5
I think we are giving up on Carter and guys like Xman way to soon sign golden back or a guy like fowler dip back in the draft and keep building nothing wrong with developing pass rushers 3rd and 4th rounders start to pay off. I agree. I think our pass rush can keep getting better with them gaining experience. I think their ceiling is probably about where Golden is, which is fine. We don't have that Strahan potential for 20 sacks / 100+ sack career type guy and I don't think we get him this year. Too bad we won in OT vs Washington... That potentially 20 sack guy could have been had.
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Merc
Special Teams
Posts: 1,679
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Post by Merc on Feb 9, 2020 21:58:10 GMT -5
Williams wanted to stay in the area, so he will likely settle for a fair deal.
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Post by IrishMike on Feb 9, 2020 22:18:31 GMT -5
I agree. I think our pass rush can keep getting better with them gaining experience. I think their ceiling is probably about where Golden is, which is fine. We don't have that Strahan potential for 20 sacks / 100+ sack career type guy and I don't think we get him this year. Too bad we won in OT vs Washington... That potentially 20 sack guy could have been had. That is the truth. At least he will go to Washington and not the Eagles.
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Post by ocgiant on Feb 9, 2020 22:22:09 GMT -5
Loser either way but I would not overpay him
Take the hit, keep the money and move on
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Post by moecoastie on Feb 9, 2020 23:09:00 GMT -5
1. LW is a lot better than some of the fans on this thread think 2. Depending on the wording of the actual contract, it is possible to switch the 3rd round #68 pick with the compensatory pick if it is indeed awarded 3. if we lose LW, his FA contract will be counted toward the equation for compensatory picks next year. (I.E. lose M. Golden, lose LW, extend Tomlinson, and sign Conklin. NYG would still qualify for a comp pick) N.E. trades for players with expiring contracts all the time. 4. I hate talking contracts but elite DTs are going for 17-22mil...good DTs range from 10-15mil. Which brings me back to my first point. 5. Please dont reference spotrac with his estimated salary....did you see who they used as comps? I think they are purposely trolling!
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Post by thetruth on Feb 9, 2020 23:50:14 GMT -5
Not sure you understand how leverage works. As a FA, Williams has the leverage. Now as a FA who has a team foolishly trading valuable draft picks (3rd and 4th/5th) to secure your services for 8 games you now have a lot more leverage in negotiations with that team. Williams can take any deal offered in FA and take it back to the Giants as he knows the Giants will overcompensate to try and save face and not have their draft capital flushed down the toilet for literally...... nothing. the "payer" does not have the leverage in this negotiation in particular. Williams has it all. The option to tag is a big factor in leverage as well. ~$20 million guaranteed for 1 year? leverage still in Williams hands
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Post by moecoastie on Feb 10, 2020 0:25:09 GMT -5
The option to tag is a big factor in leverage as well. ~$20 million guaranteed for 1 year? leverage still in Williams hands you make up that number?
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Post by thetruth on Feb 10, 2020 0:57:56 GMT -5
~$20 million guaranteed for 1 year? leverage still in Williams hands you make up that number? 100%. Just for you, cause you're special
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Post by moecoastie on Feb 10, 2020 1:55:13 GMT -5
100%. Just for you, cause you're special cool beans! FYI, estimated tag for DTs in 2020 is 15.5mil
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Post by thetruth on Feb 10, 2020 1:56:10 GMT -5
100%. Just for you, cause you're special cool beans! FYI, estimated tag for DTs in 2020 is 15.5mil DT eh? Try again
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Post by moecoastie on Feb 10, 2020 2:02:18 GMT -5
cool beans! FYI, estimated tag for DTs in 2020 is 15.5mil DT eh? Try again maybe you havent watched him play.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 10, 2020 2:04:58 GMT -5
DT eh? Try again maybe you havent watched him play. Yeah, lets go with that then. How many snaps did he play at DT? Comedy. Be better than this.
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Post by moecoastie on Feb 10, 2020 2:05:27 GMT -5
cool beans! FYI, estimated tag for DTs in 2020 is 15.5mil DT eh? Try again This is a direct quote from LW: “I definitely think I’m a top-tier interior defensive lineman, in that top percentage of the d-linemen. I wouldn’t say Aaron Donald [level]. But I would definitely put myself up there with a lot of those other top guys.” soo....you still think he is a DE? nevermind what some random website labels him
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Post by thetruth on Feb 10, 2020 2:08:35 GMT -5
DT eh? Try again This is a direct quote from LW: “I definitely think I’m a top-tier interior defensive lineman, in that top percentage of the d-linemen. I wouldn’t say Aaron Donald [level]. But I would definitely put myself up there with a lot of those other top guys.” soo....you still think he is a DE? nevermind what some random website labels him Tell me, what position does Williams play in our 3-4 defense? You think interior lineman means "DT" Do you know what a 5-tech is? From there, you should know that what when it comes to the franchise tag, 5/7/9 techs get paid the same. That position is "DE" But good try
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Post by moecoastie on Feb 10, 2020 2:12:44 GMT -5
This is a direct quote from LW: “I definitely think I’m a top-tier interior defensive lineman, in that top percentage of the d-linemen. I wouldn’t say Aaron Donald [level]. But I would definitely put myself up there with a lot of those other top guys.” soo....you still think he is a DE? nevermind what some random website labels him Tell me, what position does Williams play in our 3-4 defense? doesnt matter what I say...he thinks of himself as an interior defensive lineman. He plays the 1-tech and 3-tech which in most cases is an interior lineman. Rarely plays the 5 tech which is the closest to a 4-3 DE. This misconception of yours is probably why you think sacks should be considered his primary stat.
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Post by moecoastie on Feb 10, 2020 2:21:30 GMT -5
This is a direct quote from LW: “I definitely think I’m a top-tier interior defensive lineman, in that top percentage of the d-linemen. I wouldn’t say Aaron Donald [level]. But I would definitely put myself up there with a lot of those other top guys.” soo....you still think he is a DE? nevermind what some random website labels him Tell me, what position does Williams play in our 3-4 defense? You think interior lineman means "DT" Do you know what a 5-tech is? From there, you should know that what when it comes to the franchise tag, 5/7/9 techs get paid the same. That position is "DE" But good try fail reach
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Post by bringsimmsback on Feb 10, 2020 5:30:05 GMT -5
The option to tag is a big factor in leverage as well. ~$20 million guaranteed for 1 year? leverage still in Williams hands Most websites I've checked list him as a DT. Obviously not as attractive if he is considered a DE but don't forget the transition tag keeps the Giants in the driver's seat as well.
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Post by TCHOF on Feb 10, 2020 5:44:39 GMT -5
~$20 million guaranteed for 1 year? leverage still in Williams hands Most websites I've checked list him as a DT. Obviously not as attractive if he is considered a DE but don't forget the transition tag keeps the Giants in the driver's seat as well. If he’s wrong, he’ll just change his screen name again....
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