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Post by giantsrock on Mar 27, 2020 22:42:32 GMT -5
Not surprising he’s a - self absorbed - classless - drama king - head case. He’s not as good as the hype he garnered coming into the NFL? He’s a Gold Nugget underachiever.  Rookie of the year. Three time pro bowler. Three time all pro. Over 1000 receiving yards every year except 2017 when he missed most of the season. Doesn't sound like an underachiever to me. |
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Post by giantsrock on Mar 27, 2020 22:44:53 GMT -5
Odell is a clown, but he's great. Having him on the field (which won't happen) increases our chances to win. We didn't win when he was here... Compare 2016 to 2017 and you'll understand how much he contributed to wins. Same core players (except OBJ) and same coaches but very different results. |
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 27, 2020 22:56:25 GMT -5
We didn't win when he was here... Compare 2016 to 2017 and you'll understand how much he contributed to wins. Same core players (except OBJ) and same coaches but very different results. That comparison seems flawed to me. |
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Post by giantsrock on Mar 28, 2020 23:03:25 GMT -5
Compare 2016 to 2017 and you'll understand how much he contributed to wins. Same core players (except OBJ) and same coaches but very different results. That comparison seems flawed to me. How so? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 23:24:34 GMT -5
Odell is a clown, but he's great. Having him on the field (which won't happen) increases our chances to win. He is a talented player. He is just extremely immature. Nothing more a less. I still see some of the same petty people whining about him though. I think that says more about them than it does the player. Part of the reasons why the Giants have been subpar for the most part of almost a decade is a lack of overall talent on the roster. A team like the Giants can use all of the talent that it can get. Saying that, the bridge has been burned and you have a better chance of selling ice to an Eskimo than that player returning to the GIants
. Ralph Harrison can get this trade done...  |
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 28, 2020 23:31:25 GMT -5
That comparison seems flawed to me. How so? I think the 2017 Giants had a much tougher schedule. I believe the offense was ranked about 25th in the league in 206 and was 21st in 2017, they did score more points in 2016 it's a push to the yards number. They were 26th in points in 16 and 31st in 17. The defense also fell apart; didn't they go from top ten to last? That may have been the worst defense this team has ever fielded. Just MO. I love Beckham; he's a damn good player but I think his absence or presence had little to do with the team's overall performance. |
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 29, 2020 8:26:28 GMT -5
I think the 2017 Giants had a much tougher schedule. I believe the offense was ranked about 25th in the league in 206 and was 21st in 2017, they did score more points in 2016 it's a push to the yards number. They were 26th in points in 16 and 31st in 17. The defense also fell apart; didn't they go from top ten to last? That may have been the worst defense this team has ever fielded. Just MO. I love Beckham; he's a damn good player but I think his absence or presence had little to do with the team's overall performance. I don't think there is any way we would have gone to the playoffs without Odell in 2016. He was our only weapon on offense and made a huge difference.
Obviously WR's don't have the same impact as QB's do, but they can make a huge difference with certain conditions.
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 29, 2020 14:50:00 GMT -5
I think the 2017 Giants had a much tougher schedule. I believe the offense was ranked about 25th in the league in 206 and was 21st in 2017, they did score more points in 2016 it's a push to the yards number. They were 26th in points in 16 and 31st in 17. The defense also fell apart; didn't they go from top ten to last? That may have been the worst defense this team has ever fielded. Just MO. I love Beckham; he's a damn good player but I think his absence or presence had little to do with the team's overall performance. I don't think there is any way we would have gone to the playoffs without Odell in 2016. He was our only weapon on offense and made a huge difference.
Obviously WR's don't have the same impact as QB's do, but they can make a huge difference with certain conditions.
He certainly may have been the difference between making the playoffs that year and not as there were many, many close games. Not that that was meaningful in the larger scheme of things. Regardless, that would likely also be accomplished by just having a #1 WR on the field. He had a terrific season but that wasn’t the question to which I was responding at all. Yeah, he had a good season but the offense wasn’t materially better. He was not the reason for the delta between the 2016 and 2017 team performances at all. |
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Post by jimmieray on Mar 30, 2020 6:43:30 GMT -5
I think the 2017 Giants had a much tougher schedule. I believe the offense was ranked about 25th in the league in 206 and was 21st in 2017, they did score more points in 2016 it's a push to the yards number. They were 26th in points in 16 and 31st in 17. The defense also fell apart; didn't they go from top ten to last? That may have been the worst defense this team has ever fielded. Just MO. I love Beckham; he's a damn good player but I think his absence or presence had little to do with the team's overall performance. I don't think there is any way we would have gone to the playoffs without Odell in 2016. He was our only weapon on offense and made a huge difference.
Obviously WR's don't have the same impact as QB's do, but they can make a huge difference with certain conditions.
Too bad we went to the playoffs with Odell in 2016 - he was, as many times displayed, a complete embarrassment. |
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Post by SG88 on Mar 30, 2020 14:49:42 GMT -5
I don't think there is any way we would have gone to the playoffs without Odell in 2016. He was our only weapon on offense and made a huge difference.
Obviously WR's don't have the same impact as QB's do, but they can make a huge difference with certain conditions.
Too bad we went to the playoffs with Odell in 2016 - he was, as many times displayed, a complete embarrassment. The Giants, as a whole, were a complete embarrassment that game and have been pretty much most of the time since 2013. This is why I don't like the concept of holding individuals accountable for wins and losses in a team sport. If you criticized him for that bad game, that is fine. I hope that you have that same fire towards criticizing the defense, coaches, and the rest of the offense. That game IMO was a wrap the moment the Packers caught that Hail Mary. It is what it is. How sad is it that we are still harping on 2016 in 2020? Packers fans probably don't even remember too much about that game yet some of us will take it to their graves with them. |
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jppt1974
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Post by jppt1974 on Mar 30, 2020 15:04:38 GMT -5
Would not be surprised. As really the guy is a basket case!
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Post by jimmieray on Mar 30, 2020 16:11:51 GMT -5
Too bad we went to the playoffs with Odell in 2016 - he was, as many times displayed, a complete embarrassment. The Giants, as a whole, were a complete embarrassment that game and have been pretty much most of the time since 2013. This is why I don't like the concept of holding individuals accountable for wins and losses in a team sport. If you criticized him for that bad game, that is fine. I hope that you have that same fire towards criticizing the defense, coaches, and the rest of the offense. That game IMO was a wrap the moment the Packers caught that Hail Mary. It is what it is. How sad is it that we are still harping on 2016 in 2020? Packers fans probably don't even remember too much about that game yet some of us will take it to their graves with them. I know this has been covered before, and it is something Chris (MH) and I have still been going back and forth on. But you said yourself after, that Eli wasn't a contributor to that loss, and that was well after you had created threads about him not having it anymore. The O-line wasn't so bad, either. And the defense did a great job with Rodgers for pretty much the full first half. But Beckham was horrible right out the gates, knowing he would be a critical target for the passing game. Very few teams were going to hold Rodgers down for long, and all those drops led to giving him too many chances. It's not just the one playoff game that Beckham failed, there were big ones against the Packers and Vikings earlier, and of course that Panther's disgrace I believe our team was still hanging in contention. In the general scheme of things, I prefer that a team does not even rely on any single WR to be counted on as the difference maker - but this guy does not have the mental fortitude for it.
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 30, 2020 16:30:28 GMT -5
The Giants, as a whole, were a complete embarrassment that game and have been pretty much most of the time since 2013. This is why I don't like the concept of holding individuals accountable for wins and losses in a team sport. If you criticized him for that bad game, that is fine. I hope that you have that same fire towards criticizing the defense, coaches, and the rest of the offense. That game IMO was a wrap the moment the Packers caught that Hail Mary. It is what it is. How sad is it that we are still harping on 2016 in 2020? Packers fans probably don't even remember too much about that game yet some of us will take it to their graves with them. I know this has been covered before, and it is something Chris (MH) and I have still been going back and forth on. But you said yourself after, that Eli wasn't a contributor to that loss, and that was well after you had created threads about him not having it anymore. The O-line wasn't so bad, either. And the defense did a great job with Rodgers for pretty much the full first half. But Beckham was horrible right out the gates, knowing he would be a critical target for the passing game. Very few teams were going to hold Rodgers down for long, and all those drops led to giving him too many chances. It's not just the one playoff game that Beckham failed, there were big ones against the Packers and Vikings earlier, and of course that Panther's disgrace I believe our team was still hanging in contention. In the general scheme of things, I prefer that a team does not even rely on any single WR to be counted on as the difference maker - but this guy does not have the mental fortitude for it.
I think that team was a complete paper tiger. They weren't all that good. Mcadoo deserves credit for managing to get the wins they got in the regular season while beating up on shit teams. But once the playoffs started the gig was up. The Packers could have had Joe Callahan under center and still won that game. Once the first half was over so was that game, that season and the mirage that was that 2016 team. No single player makes that much difference to a team's prospects. |
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Post by jimmieray on Mar 30, 2020 16:44:46 GMT -5
I know this has been covered before, and it is something Chris (MH) and I have still been going back and forth on. But you said yourself after, that Eli wasn't a contributor to that loss, and that was well after you had created threads about him not having it anymore. The O-line wasn't so bad, either. And the defense did a great job with Rodgers for pretty much the full first half. But Beckham was horrible right out the gates, knowing he would be a critical target for the passing game. Very few teams were going to hold Rodgers down for long, and all those drops led to giving him too many chances. It's not just the one playoff game that Beckham failed, there were big ones against the Packers and Vikings earlier, and of course that Panther's disgrace I believe our team was still hanging in contention. In the general scheme of things, I prefer that a team does not even rely on any single WR to be counted on as the difference maker - but this guy does not have the mental fortitude for it.
I think that team was a complete paper tiger. They weren't all that good. Mcadoo deserves credit for managing to get the wins they got in the regular season while beating up on shit teams. But once the playoffs started the gig was up. The Packers could have had Joe Callahan under center and still won that game. Once the first half was over so was that game, that season and the mirage that was that 2016 team. No single player makes that much difference to a team's prospects. I'm not so sure that Packer's team was so superior, other than Rodgers who was on a run. Their secondary was depleted, you can see it with the loose coverage on our receivers. But some off field nonsense that poodle boy had to pull before that game had our receivers with the jitters. |
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Post by SG88 on Mar 30, 2020 18:40:42 GMT -5
The Giants, as a whole, were a complete embarrassment that game and have been pretty much most of the time since 2013. This is why I don't like the concept of holding individuals accountable for wins and losses in a team sport. If you criticized him for that bad game, that is fine. I hope that you have that same fire towards criticizing the defense, coaches, and the rest of the offense. That game IMO was a wrap the moment the Packers caught that Hail Mary. It is what it is. How sad is it that we are still harping on 2016 in 2020? Packers fans probably don't even remember too much about that game yet some of us will take it to their graves with them. I know this has been covered before, and it is something Chris (MH) and I have still been going back and forth on. But you said yourself after, that Eli wasn't a contributor to that loss, and that was well after you had created threads about him not having it anymore. The O-line wasn't so bad, either. And the defense did a great job with Rodgers for pretty much the full first half. But Beckham was horrible right out the gates, knowing he would be a critical target for the passing game. Very few teams were going to hold Rodgers down for long, and all those drops led to giving him too many chances. It's not just the one playoff game that Beckham failed, there were big ones against the Packers and Vikings earlier, and of course that Panther's disgrace I believe our team was still hanging in contention. In the general scheme of things, I prefer that a team does not even rely on any single WR to be counted on as the difference maker - but this guy does not have the mental fortitude for it.
The Giants that year offensively were pretty bad. How about Beckham's GW TD against the Ravens that season? There are times that he played well and made key plays to some of the few wins we have attained since his arrival. There are also times where he dropped balls or got locked up and got frustrated (Rhodes held him in check in the Minnesota game you brought up). Eli Manning did play better than his stats may indicate in that particular game against the Packers. I gave him his props for it despite my feelings of wanting to move on at QB at the time. For a while in that game, he looked like the 2011 version. He delivered balls on time and his teammates let him down with drops. The problem with the defense is that the game is 4 quarters and the second half has to be taken into account when evaluating them. They got bitch slapped in the second half and folded. I refuse to blame the injury to DRC for that second half defensive collapse. Anyways, I agree with you that a team should never have to rely on a single WR to be a difference maker. Beckham, though very talented, does not IMO have the mental makeup to be a leader. I am sure that he wants to win badly. However, in a team game, an individual can only do so much. |
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 30, 2020 18:41:58 GMT -5
I think that team was a complete paper tiger. They weren't all that good. Mcadoo deserves credit for managing to get the wins they got in the regular season while beating up on shit teams. But once the playoffs started the gig was up. The Packers could have had Joe Callahan under center and still won that game. Once the first half was over so was that game, that season and the mirage that was that 2016 team. No single player makes that much difference to a team's prospects. I'm not so sure that Packer's team was so superior, other than Rodgers who was on a run. Their secondary was depleted, you can see it with the loose coverage on our receivers. But some off field nonsense that poodle boy had to pull before that game had our receivers with the jitters. Fair enough. I see your point and while I agree Beckham had a very bad game, it was just one game. Him having a great game would not have changed the game's result at all, imo. And getting back to the subject at hand, imo and putting least year aside to an extent, Beckham is a top 10 WR in the league. He's a very good player but indicating that he was the difference between the 2016 Giants and the 2017 Giants is pure fantasy. Again, imo. |
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Post by jimmieray on Mar 30, 2020 19:05:04 GMT -5
I'm not so sure that Packer's team was so superior, other than Rodgers who was on a run. Their secondary was depleted, you can see it with the loose coverage on our receivers. But some off field nonsense that poodle boy had to pull before that game had our receivers with the jitters. Fair enough. I see your point and while I agree Beckham had a very bad game, it was just one game. Him having a great game would not have changed the game's result at all, imo. And getting back to the subject at hand, imo and putting least year aside to an extent, Beckham is a top 10 WR in the league. He's a very good player but indicating that he was the difference between the 2016 Giants and the 2017 Giants is pure fantasy. Again, imo. I suppose this coming season will better prove or disprove his receiver status in the league. His own contract, that he wanted so badly, I feel will be a weight around his neck - or should I say mind, it's again pressure on himself. I don't think he was the difference in the 2016 and 2017 teams, either. I think you mentioned schedule, but it may have more that playoff hit to overall team confidence and how McAdoo handled it. He made some good on field coaching decisions in 2016, but really screwed up personnel relations as that season went along.
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Post by Kruunch on Mar 30, 2020 19:06:19 GMT -5
I’m going to go off the rails here for a bit.
I can’t stand Bart Scott. He was a tool when he was a player, and a douche as a radio host.
I’ve caught myself on a few occasions listening to him on the commute home, what a disaster. NYC traffic was a vacation compared to listening to that hack.
I see he switched to ESPN NY. He will do well there, the job requirements are to talk out of your ass, talk loud to pretend you know what you’re talking about. And sell your soul for ratings.
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 30, 2020 19:16:49 GMT -5
Fair enough. I see your point and while I agree Beckham had a very bad game, it was just one game. Him having a great game would not have changed the game's result at all, imo. And getting back to the subject at hand, imo and putting least year aside to an extent, Beckham is a top 10 WR in the league. He's a very good player but indicating that he was the difference between the 2016 Giants and the 2017 Giants is pure fantasy. Again, imo. I suppose this coming season will better prove or disprove his receiver status in the league. His own contract, that he wanted so badly, I feel will be a weight around his neck - or should I say mind, it's again pressure on himself. I don't think he was the difference in the 2016 and 2017 teams, either. I think you mentioned schedule, but it may have more that playoff hit to overall team confidence and how McAdoo handled it. He made some good on field coaching decisions in 2016, but really screwed up personnel relations as that season went along.
I think the team was very fortunate in 2016 and it was unrealistic to believe that they could sustain that. The defense was the primary reason the Giants won games in 2016, the offense was awful as I recall. I seem to remember a lot of 21-17 type games. Given that the offense was really no different between 16 and 17 while the defense went from top 10 to last.....sometimes the painfully obvious answer is the correct one. I think Beckham will bounce back next year which is why I think he's still a top 10 WR and will remain so. |
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Post by DandyDon on Mar 30, 2020 21:31:28 GMT -5
I think the 2017 Giants had a much tougher schedule. I believe the offense was ranked about 25th in the league in 206 and was 21st in 2017, they did score more points in 2016 it's a push to the yards number. They were 26th in points in 16 and 31st in 17. The defense also fell apart; didn't they go from top ten to last? That may have been the worst defense this team has ever fielded. Just MO. I love Beckham; he's a damn good player but I think his absence or presence had little to do with the team's overall performance. I don't think there is any way we would have gone to the playoffs without Odell in 2016. He was our only weapon on offense and made a huge difference.
Obviously WR's don't have the same impact as QB's do, but they can make a huge difference with certain conditions.
I remember it differently. We spent $200 million on defense that year, and the defense was the biggest/only reason we were in the playoffs. Pretty sure even with OBJ, we were rated 28th in offense. |
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 30, 2020 22:50:11 GMT -5
I don't think there is any way we would have gone to the playoffs without Odell in 2016. He was our only weapon on offense and made a huge difference.
Obviously WR's don't have the same impact as QB's do, but they can make a huge difference with certain conditions.
I remember it differently. We spent $200 million on defense that year, and the defense was the biggest/only reason we were in the playoffs. Pretty sure even with OBJ, we were rated 28th in offense. Another pet peeve of mine. We didn't spend $200MM on these players. That was the totality of their contracts over the entire length....if they all stayed with us for all those years. Nothing close to that was guaranteed or paid by the New York Giants.
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Post by DandyDon on Mar 30, 2020 23:50:35 GMT -5
I remember it differently. We spent $200 million on defense that year, and the defense was the biggest/only reason we were in the playoffs. Pretty sure even with OBJ, we were rated 28th in offense. Another pet peeve of mine. We didn't spend $200MM on these players. That was the totality of their contracts over the entire length....if they all stayed with us for all those years. Nothing close to that was guaranteed or paid by the New York Giants.
But you still believe obj was the reason they made the playoffs? Ok... |
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 31, 2020 5:23:09 GMT -5
I remember it differently. We spent $200 million on defense that year, and the defense was the biggest/only reason we were in the playoffs. Pretty sure even with OBJ, we were rated 28th in offense. Another pet peeve of mine. We didn't spend $200MM on these players. That was the totality of their contracts over the entire length....if they all stayed with us for all those years. Nothing close to that was guaranteed or paid by the New York Giants.
How much was actually paid and/or taken as a dead cap hit? |
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 31, 2020 8:04:56 GMT -5
Another pet peeve of mine. We didn't spend $200MM on these players. That was the totality of their contracts over the entire length....if they all stayed with us for all those years. Nothing close to that was guaranteed or paid by the New York Giants.
But you still believe obj was the reason they made the playoffs? Ok... I never said anything close to that. You just like to fight...don't you? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 8:11:26 GMT -5
Another pet peeve of mine. We didn't spend $200MM on these players. That was the totality of their contracts over the entire length....if they all stayed with us for all those years. Nothing close to that was guaranteed or paid by the New York Giants.
How much was actually paid and/or taken as a dead cap hit? Wasn't it like 105/106 guaranteed? |
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 31, 2020 8:15:09 GMT -5
How much was actually paid and/or taken as a dead cap hit? Wasn't it like 105/106 guaranteed? Not sure … MH claims that "nothing close to" $200M was paid, so I figured that he would know …. |
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 31, 2020 8:17:59 GMT -5
Wasn't it like 105/106 guaranteed? Not sure … MH claims that "nothing close to" $200M was paid, so I figured that he would know …. After taking a look at the three contracts, giving all the players their full bonuses and trying to estimate their salaries based on when they left the team....it looks like about $120MM was paid to all three players over the course of 3 to4 years.
I other words, we paid about $40MM in 2016 for those players.
And since when is bringing in effective free agents a bad thing?
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 31, 2020 8:55:24 GMT -5
Not sure … MH claims that "nothing close to" $200M was paid, so I figured that he would know …. After taking a look at the three contracts, giving all the players their full bonuses and trying to estimate their salaries based on when they left the team....it looks like about $120MM was paid to all three players over the course of 3 to4 years.
I other words, we paid about $40MM in 2016 for those players.
And since when is bringing in effective free agents a bad thing?
Who said it was a bad thing? It's a bad thing when you are forced to do it because of bad drafts …. |
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 31, 2020 9:11:36 GMT -5
After taking a look at the three contracts, giving all the players their full bonuses and trying to estimate their salaries based on when they left the team....it looks like about $120MM was paid to all three players over the course of 3 to4 years.
I other words, we paid about $40MM in 2016 for those players.
And since when is bringing in effective free agents a bad thing?
Who said it was a bad thing? It's a bad thing when you are forced to do it because of bad drafts …. Well it took JR a couple years to manage the cap in order to be able to bring in those guys. It's part of a GM's responsibilities. Bringing in good free agents.
He brought in three guys, in their primes. The fact that this poster is complaining about it suggests that JR made solid decisions as they helped the team win.
Are we whining that Antonio Pierce, Kareem McKenzie and Plaxico Burress helped us win a SB?
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 31, 2020 9:22:59 GMT -5
Another pet peeve of mine. We didn't spend $200MM on these players. That was the totality of their contracts over the entire length....if they all stayed with us for all those years. Nothing close to that was guaranteed or paid by the New York Giants.
How much was actually paid and/or taken as a dead cap hit? I believe the 2016 guaranteed money to signings was about $120MM |
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