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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 10:47:40 GMT -5
I don't think, IMHO, we are drafting a right tackle, and doing what we did last year, awaiting for value and losing all available tackles, from potential swing to potential all pro ...we're going to draft a left tackle, or a tackle with the ability to play LT... that, due to DG's wise double tapping into idiocy, we're still stuck with a major hull leak called Solder... and that left tackle starts on the right side. Wilson is a mountain, but he's never going to play LT in the NFL...not athletic enough, and the Prince is probably going to be kicked inside at some point due to his short arms...and is very raw, and both could be reached for, as most OT's are done every year. BPA is not how we are going...no team ever does BPA unless they are stacked and in the playoffs each year. When you draft top ten every year, you draft need as well as value...why draft a RB at 2?...then a pick 6 QB?...and then after they both have seasons that were poor to fumbling average...not follow up with the reasons running backs are a dime a dozen and can't bounce everything outside, and that rookie franchise QB having issues in a pocket, by getting the guys who create these guys...the blockers...the OL...the LOS winners? I can see a slight trade down, and drafting TWO tackles...that's how weak we are at that position. So you would take an OT even if the team has Simmons rated (slightly) higher? Hell yeah .... that was the easiest question you ever asked. I added in the slightly to your question, as it will not be that big a graded difference as you believe...not like Simmons vs Saahdiq Charles
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Post by TheAnalyst on Mar 25, 2020 10:49:34 GMT -5
Im ok with trench picks in the 1st round, the DTs. And he picked Baker at 30 which I was 100% ok with. The RBs that early is what is discouraging to me. To me it says he thinks the RB is a position of need more than almost any other position. As I said, DG likes flash in the 1st round from his history, not meat and potatoes. The RB's ARE discouraging.
Look at how many games those two RB's have won in their careers.
RB's DON'T IMPACT WINS LIKE MANY OTHER POSITIONS DO.
It's just the way it is. Saquan and McCaffrey have put up great numbers. But they simply don't impact wins.
Preaching to the choir bro.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Mar 25, 2020 10:50:29 GMT -5
22 RBs were taken in the 2015 NFL draft
NOT 1 OF THOSE RBs ARE STILL WITH THEIR DRAFTED TEAM!
It is not a valuable position in the NFL
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Post by Roswell on Mar 25, 2020 10:52:27 GMT -5
Im ok with trench picks in the 1st round, the DTs. And he picked Baker at 30 which I was 100% ok with. The RBs that early is what is discouraging to me. To me it says he thinks the RB is a position of need more than almost any other position. As I said, DG likes flash in the 1st round from his history, not meat and potatoes. The RB's ARE discouraging.
Look at how many games those two RB's have won in their careers.
RB's DON'T IMPACT WINS LIKE MANY OTHER POSITIONS DO.
It's just the way it is. Saquan and McCaffrey have put up great numbers. But they simply don't impact wins.
Your statement is true....in a vacuum. Emmitt Smith translated into wins. It all depends on QB and supporting cast. McCaffrey and Barkley were drafted onto teams that have a ton of holes. We need ground rules. Whoever states that they shouldn’t have taken Barkley, at the very least, should state who they should’ve taken. Did you want Darnold, Nelson, Chubb? Who? At least then the merits of the selection could be measured.
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 25, 2020 10:53:45 GMT -5
Can't be rigid like this with a player assigned to a round because this is how you reach... I love your idea and in theory the 1st 2 rounds works (fab 4 OT will be there at our first pick and I would allow for a slight reach if needed for Cushenburry in the 2and But who knows what's going to be there at 99.... if anything probably WR or MLB (or even someone to bolster the secondary like a slot corner)will be the best value ..because the edge rushers could be picked bare... No trade back probably means we dont adress a need (except WR where there is sick talent till early day 3 or slot corner)because of that gap unfortunately And I'd rather get the line fixed First two rounds, it’s reasonable to assume value and need will be in synch. Third round, you’re absolutely right, need doesn’t win out over value. So you might get that WR you’ve been asking for. Of course, for my money, Young would be the pick if he’s there and still can see a viable scenario where that happens. But I’m an optimistic guy. Young is the game plan changer for this draft.. Those tapes of the 1981 team...he would have a similar effect on our defense as LT did... At that point my game plan is BPA offense the rest of the draft..try to throw Engram in in a trade up scenario..the (as me and aris call it )spray and pray method of drafting an bunch of tackles and hope one or 2 are good.. Simmons is not a game changer on defense,he is a finishing piece luxury item The only game changer on defense is Young and you dont pass on unicorns
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 25, 2020 10:54:14 GMT -5
The RB's ARE discouraging.
Look at how many games those two RB's have won in their careers.
RB's DON'T IMPACT WINS LIKE MANY OTHER POSITIONS DO.
It's just the way it is. Saquan and McCaffrey have put up great numbers. But they simply don't impact wins.
Yes they do, just like any other player effects wins or loss's . Doing their job on a team and doing it well effects wins and loss's .It's why football is called a "team sport". Many people don't consider a "kicker"an impactful position............till it sails wide right! Easy to say. But the reality is that in the last decade plus, every winning SB team but one (Seattle/Lynch) used a RB by committee.
The running game matters. But a good running game doesn't require a top draft pick at RB. Who ran all over GB and Minny last year in the playoffs? an undrafted ST's player. And the problem is that when you have a high pick at RB, you feel the need to feed him and often you lose your dynamics on offense. The entire Carolina offense, both rushing and passing runs through Christian McCaffrey. Does that create wins? It hasn't even though his numbers are off the charts.
A great RB gets you great stats for that player. A great QB, gets you to the playoffs and beyond.
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 25, 2020 10:55:14 GMT -5
So the choice could be, do you want Simmons or Thomas/Wills/Wirfs/Becton + extra picks? I vote for the latter. Hard to argue with that … although we both know that someone will ….
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 25, 2020 10:56:34 GMT -5
The RB's ARE discouraging.
Look at how many games those two RB's have won in their careers.
RB's DON'T IMPACT WINS LIKE MANY OTHER POSITIONS DO.
It's just the way it is. Saquan and McCaffrey have put up great numbers. But they simply don't impact wins.
Your statement is true....in a vacuum. Emmitt Smith translated into wins. It all depends on QB and supporting cast. McCaffrey and Barkley were drafted onto teams that have a ton of holes. We need ground rules. Whoever states that they shouldn’t have taken a Barkley, at the very least, should state who they should’ve taken. Did you want Darnold, Nelson, Chubb? Who? At least then the merits of the selection could be measured. Emmitt Smith is irrelevant. I'm talking about Today's NFL with today's rules that favor the passing game. Yes, Franco Harris, Emmitt Smith and Jim Brown had great impact on winning. That was the old league.
And also the RB talent is so spread out it also doesn't make sense to blow the 2nd pick in the draft on one.
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Post by Roswell on Mar 25, 2020 10:57:37 GMT -5
First two rounds, it’s reasonable to assume value and need will be in synch. Third round, you’re absolutely right, need doesn’t win out over value. So you might get that WR you’ve been asking for. Of course, for my money, Young would be the pick if he’s there and still can see a viable scenario where that happens. But I’m an optimistic guy. Young is the game plan changer for this draft.. Those tapes of the 1981 team...he would have a similar effect on our defense as LT did... At that point my game plan is BPA offense the rest of the draft..try to throw Engram in in a trade up scenario..the (as me and aris call it )spray and pray method of drafting an bunch of tackles and hope one or 2 are good.. Simmons is not a game changer on defense,he is a finishing piece luxury item The only game changer on defense is Young and you dont pass on unicorns We are on the same page.
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 25, 2020 11:00:43 GMT -5
So you would take an OT even if the team has Simmons rated (slightly) higher? Hell yeah .... that was the easiest question you ever asked. I added in the slightly to your question, as it will not be that big a graded difference as you believe...not like Simmons vs Saahdiq Charles I actually have no idea how the team would have these guys rated. I do know that they rate them in tiers, so it is entirely possible that they would have Simmons rated in the same tier as the OT's. If that's the case, I am taking an OT all day long (hopefully after a trade-back). If Simmons is rated in a higher tier, I am taking Simmons.
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 25, 2020 11:01:04 GMT -5
The RB's ARE discouraging.
Look at how many games those two RB's have won in their careers.
RB's DON'T IMPACT WINS LIKE MANY OTHER POSITIONS DO.
It's just the way it is. Saquan and McCaffrey have put up great numbers. But they simply don't impact wins.
Your statement is true....in a vacuum. Emmitt Smith translated into wins. It all depends on QB and supporting cast. McCaffrey and Barkley were drafted onto teams that have a ton of holes. We need ground rules. Whoever states that they shouldn’t have taken Barkley, at the very least, should state who they should’ve taken. Did you want Darnold, Nelson, Chubb? Who? At least then the merits of the selection could be measured. Barkley and McCaffrey are more than running backs though IMO (as is Kamara) New age all around unicorn playmakers that that can completely wreck games if on good teams that you need multiple players on every level to have to account for.. You put Barkley on a team like the Chiefs with an above average online and frightening playmakers outside and he averages 3000 total yards a year ...
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Post by Roswell on Mar 25, 2020 11:01:30 GMT -5
Your statement is true....in a vacuum. Emmitt Smith translated into wins. It all depends on QB and supporting cast. McCaffrey and Barkley were drafted onto teams that have a ton of holes. We need ground rules. Whoever states that they shouldn’t have taken a Barkley, at the very least, should state who they should’ve taken. Did you want Darnold, Nelson, Chubb? Who? At least then the merits of the selection could be measured. Emmitt Smith is irrelevant. I'm talking about Today's NFL with today's rules that favor the passing game. Yes, Franco Harris, Emmitt Smith and Jim Brown had great impact on winning. That was the old league.
And also the RB talent is so spread out it also doesn't make sense to blow the 2nd pick in the draft on one.
So, you wanted Darnold? Nelson? That’s my point. Chubb? How many wins have these guys given their respective teams?
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Post by Roswell on Mar 25, 2020 11:02:10 GMT -5
Your statement is true....in a vacuum. Emmitt Smith translated into wins. It all depends on QB and supporting cast. McCaffrey and Barkley were drafted onto teams that have a ton of holes. We need ground rules. Whoever states that they shouldn’t have taken Barkley, at the very least, should state who they should’ve taken. Did you want Darnold, Nelson, Chubb? Who? At least then the merits of the selection could be measured. Barkley and McCaffrey are more than running backs though IMO (as is Kamara) New age all around unicorn playmakers that that can completely wreck games if on good teams that you need multiple players on every level to have to account for.. You put Barkley on a team like the Chiefs with an above average online and frightening playmakers outside and he averages 3000 total yards a year ... Yes. Exactly.
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 25, 2020 11:06:33 GMT -5
Emmitt Smith is irrelevant. I'm talking about Today's NFL with today's rules that favor the passing game. Yes, Franco Harris, Emmitt Smith and Jim Brown had great impact on winning. That was the old league.
And also the RB talent is so spread out it also doesn't make sense to blow the 2nd pick in the draft on one.
So, you wanted Darnold? Nelson? That’s my point. Chubb? How many wins have these guys given their respective teams? I was wrong about Chubb actually..thought he would be a bad fit for a 3/4..which is why I look at Young who is a little lighter and more productive and salivating.. At 2 Nelson...ehh.........Barkley was a better choice.. FWIW I wanted to trade back with Cleveland to 4 and take Mayfield... Oops
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 25, 2020 11:10:13 GMT -5
Your statement is true....in a vacuum. Emmitt Smith translated into wins. It all depends on QB and supporting cast. McCaffrey and Barkley were drafted onto teams that have a ton of holes. We need ground rules. Whoever states that they shouldn’t have taken Barkley, at the very least, should state who they should’ve taken. Did you want Darnold, Nelson, Chubb? Who? At least then the merits of the selection could be measured. Barkley and McCaffrey are more than running backs though IMO (as is Kamara) New age all around unicorn playmakers that that can completely wreck games if on good teams that you need multiple players on every level to have to account for.. You put Barkley on a team like the Chiefs with an above average online and frightening playmakers outside and he averages 3000 total yards a year ... Sounds like you're making a case to draft Simmons
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 11:10:21 GMT -5
It's gotta be an OT unless the Giants can trade back and get both.......wishful thinking on my part. Even if Chase was there at #4 I'd still go OT. The Giants just drafted their franchise QB last year and have their franchise running back going into his third year to strut them out opening day with Gates and Solder protecting the edge is insanity. It just has to be an OT or trade back and two OT's.....just my opinion but I really don't see any scenario they take a LB at #4 or god forbid a CB or WR as some of the "experts" have projected. Kiper updated his Giants pick to Simmons as well. If Young falls to us. You RUN 🏃 to the podium as fast as you can
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 11:14:02 GMT -5
PFF View4. NEW YORK GIANTS – WR JERRY JEUDY, ALABAMA Giants' faithful is begging for the team to address the pressing need at offensive tackle at No. 4 overall in the 2020 NFL Draft, but Jeudy is a better prospect than every offensive tackle in this class. Rookies, especially rookie offensive linemen, don't fill pressing needs. Over the past five NFL seasons, only nine rookie offensive tackles have played 400-plus snaps and earned overall grades above 70.0. None have earned an overall grade above 82.0. Don't address pressing needs in the draft; just draft the best players available.
Just posting up PFF support for the BPA like Tony... and get a OT later in the draft as he suggests BTW, I don't agree with this and want OT, but stats are...stats. If we draft Simmons and he becomes the new league defensive MVP, and DG gets a starting right tackle who improves to LT by next year in the 2nd round...then I can eat all the crow anybody wants me to...I love Crow...tastes like chicken when we are winning... BTW, their second analytic mock had Ruggs....
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Post by PennState1 on Mar 25, 2020 11:14:43 GMT -5
We need a starting Tackle AND a starting Center! Tell me where they come from if not in the first 3 rounds (really should be round 1 and 2) of this draft?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 11:16:53 GMT -5
I know zero about the current OT prospects in the draft, but their success rate is not good. I would much rather take a good D player than an iffy O player at 4. It's always easier to attack than defend. So you admittedly say you know ZERO about the OT prospects but then then call them an “iffy” player at #4. What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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Post by PennState1 on Mar 25, 2020 11:18:37 GMT -5
You don't need great LT's to win, you do need great players on defense. Right now we have as our starting tackles Barely functional A black hole Any of these 4 taken is a drastic improvement at one of the spots day 1 We are no better off at Center. Anyone remember how many times our #1 weapon got hit in the backfield literally as he was taking the handoff? That’s on the Center.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 11:19:37 GMT -5
I know zero about the current OT prospects in the draft, but their success rate is not good. I would much rather take a good D player than an iffy O player at 4. It's always easier to attack than defend. You don't need great LT's to win, you do need great players on defense. Haha. Great Tackles help your QB stay upright. They help your RB run outside. They are the unsung hero who get no credit for all they do. Tell me a team with a horrendous OL that has had success. Andrew Luck May still be playing if he had a line at any point in his career
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Post by PennState1 on Mar 25, 2020 11:25:18 GMT -5
If no trade back.... Round 1. Best OT on the board Round 2. Best C on the board Round 3. Best Edge on the board They need to stop messing around. THIS!!!!
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 25, 2020 11:29:29 GMT -5
PFF View4. NEW YORK GIANTS – WR JERRY JEUDY, ALABAMA Giants' faithful is begging for the team to address the pressing need at offensive tackle at No. 4 overall in the 2020 NFL Draft, but Jeudy is a better prospect than every offensive tackle in this class. Rookies, especially rookie offensive linemen, don't fill pressing needs. Over the past five NFL seasons, only nine rookie offensive tackles have played 400-plus snaps and earned overall grades above 70.0. None have earned an overall grade above 82.0. Don't address pressing needs in the draft; just draft the best players available.
Just posting up PFF support for the BPA like Tony... and get a OT later in the draft as he suggests BTW, I don't agree with this and want OT, but stats are...stats. If we draft Simmons and he becomes the new league defensive MVP, and DG gets a starting right tackle who improves to LT by next year in the 2nd round...then I can eat all the crow anybody wants me to...I love Crow...tastes like chicken when we are winning... BTW, their second analytic mock had Ruggs.... I thought that you were a "tape" guy? For a "tape" guy you sure seem to rely blindly on PFF stats a lot. Drafting lesser players for need is a disastrous way to draft.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 25, 2020 11:32:54 GMT -5
Emmitt Smith is irrelevant. I'm talking about Today's NFL with today's rules that favor the passing game. Yes, Franco Harris, Emmitt Smith and Jim Brown had great impact on winning. That was the old league.
And also the RB talent is so spread out it also doesn't make sense to blow the 2nd pick in the draft on one.
So, you wanted Darnold? Nelson? That’s my point. Chubb? How many wins have these guys given their respective teams? I honestly didn't know enough about most of these top prospects. I'm not one of these guys who claims they watch a ton of film. I'm just a football fan.
My point is more about the philosophy about what positions effect wins more than others. I DO have strong views on that.
I thought we had a chance to draft Chubb after we traded JPP. But who knows. At least he was a pass rusher. I saw Darnold play in one game at USC. I saw a couple games from Mayfield. Can't say I saw any games from Jackson. If Michigan State isn't playing, I'm probably not watching.
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Post by Fletch842 on Mar 25, 2020 11:33:20 GMT -5
PFF View4. NEW YORK GIANTS – WR JERRY JEUDY, ALABAMA Giants' faithful is begging for the team to address the pressing need at offensive tackle at No. 4 overall in the 2020 NFL Draft, but Jeudy is a better prospect than every offensive tackle in this class. Rookies, especially rookie offensive linemen, don't fill pressing needs. Over the past five NFL seasons, only nine rookie offensive tackles have played 400-plus snaps and earned overall grades above 70.0. None have earned an overall grade above 82.0. Don't address pressing needs in the draft; just draft the best players available.
Just posting up PFF support for the BPA like Tony... and get a OT later in the draft as he suggests BTW, I don't agree with this and want OT, but stats are...stats. If we draft Simmons and he becomes the new league defensive MVP, and DG gets a starting right tackle who improves to LT by next year in the 2nd round...then I can eat all the crow anybody wants me to...I love Crow...tastes like chicken when we are winning... BTW, their second analytic mock had Ruggs.... I can understand if the team likes Simmons enough to pass on one of the top OT's. If they take any WR from this draft at 4, I will be really unhappy.
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 25, 2020 12:15:54 GMT -5
Right now we have as our starting tackles Barely functional A black hole Any of these 4 taken is a drastic improvement at one of the spots day 1 We are no better off at Center. Anyone remember how many times our #1 weapon got hit in the backfield literally as he was taking the handoff? That’s on the Center. Yep Playing to the strength of the draft early round 1 falls in line with a top OT Day 2 the strength of the draft should be C and WR... Willing to reach for Cushinburry because of the huge gap between picks on day 2 so we are guaranteed a day 1 starter in round 2..
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Post by DandyDon on Mar 25, 2020 12:52:59 GMT -5
I know zero about the current OT prospects in the draft, but their success rate is not good. I would much rather take a good D player than an iffy O player at 4. It's always easier to attack than defend. So you admittedly say you know ZERO about the OT prospects but then then call them an “iffy” player at #4. What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. What I know is a lot more college ots end up as NFL ogs. I don't want to waste the 4th pick on a future guard. If they believe in one of them, fine, but it's risky, IMO. And go **** yourself.
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Post by infinite420 on Mar 25, 2020 12:54:45 GMT -5
I agree. Great offenses win during the season. Great defenses win in the post season. You have to get there, but I still think D is more important than O. I have to stick by my view that Joe Judge is getting the players he wants. If I felt Dave had the final call, I would say it would be one of the OT's. But I do believe that this is Joe's team and I think that means that Simmons is the guy. He will be the best player on the board when we pick.
He may be in alot of eyes, but we have such a GLARING need at tackle, we really need two, that theres NO chance Simmons can be the pick. Whos the last off the ball LB that had a HUGE effect on his new team? And thats assuming he will be w full time LBer. Im still pretty weary of that. I think his best role will to be a team that can get him in that Kam Chancellor role of a LB/SS hybrid. 6'5, 235 is pretty skinny for a full time LBer. So you might be getting more of a safety than LBer at 4? Thats questionable at best. Id like to see us go T and C in two of the first three rounds, with a WR in either Round 2 or 3. You could end up with a Thomas/Higgins in the first two rounds, and possibly snag Biadacz with the 3rd round comp pick. If you take Simmons at 4, you MAY get an Austin Jackson type player w the 2nd, but then have to develop him. Tackles are too much of a premium position to pass on, when you will have the pick of the litter.
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Post by infinite420 on Mar 25, 2020 12:58:10 GMT -5
PFF View4. NEW YORK GIANTS – WR JERRY JEUDY, ALABAMA Giants' faithful is begging for the team to address the pressing need at offensive tackle at No. 4 overall in the 2020 NFL Draft, but Jeudy is a better prospect than every offensive tackle in this class. Rookies, especially rookie offensive linemen, don't fill pressing needs. Over the past five NFL seasons, only nine rookie offensive tackles have played 400-plus snaps and earned overall grades above 70.0. None have earned an overall grade above 82.0. Don't address pressing needs in the draft; just draft the best players available.
Just posting up PFF support for the BPA like Tony... and get a OT later in the draft as he suggests BTW, I don't agree with this and want OT, but stats are...stats. If we draft Simmons and he becomes the new league defensive MVP, and DG gets a starting right tackle who improves to LT by next year in the 2nd round...then I can eat all the crow anybody wants me to...I love Crow...tastes like chicken when we are winning... BTW, their second analytic mock had Ruggs.... I can understand if the team likes Simmons enough to pass on one of the top OT's. If they take any WR from this draft at 4, I will be really unhappy. Jeudy or Lamb look like All-Pro material. I get that L Fitz vibe from Lamb, and Jeudy moves around alot like D Hopkins. Those kind of players often have more impact on games than off ball LBs. Just sayin....
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 25, 2020 13:09:10 GMT -5
I can understand if the team likes Simmons enough to pass on one of the top OT's. If they take any WR from this draft at 4, I will be really unhappy. Jeudy or Lamb look like All-Pro material. I get that L Fitz vibe from Lamb, and Jeudy moves around alot like D Hopkins. Those kind of players often have more impact on games than off ball LBs. Just sayin.... *ducks* 100 % agree I actually think Lamb is the best WR in this draft..a combo of Hopkins and Odell post catch... Jeudy is Jerry Rice like route running..... With that said I'm hating one of these guys at 4 ae well...mainly because we are destroying the ability to build the offense value meets need right away... Day 2..yeah,why not,some day one impact dynamic players will be there You can get a quez Watkins at 5 who looks like a more polished version of Slayton coming out ...
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