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Post by GameTime on May 12, 2020 18:20:34 GMT -5
I live in Somerset County in central NJ .l live in a small town . Since week 3 of the lock-down. My town's cases have tripled . No one can convince me stay at home is working. why do you think they are increasing? increased testing the virus already had taken a foothold people are not doing as much as the can. Actually many are being down right stupid there is no 100% right answer but carrying on with just common sense would have resulted in so many more dead. That I have no doubt at all about. I do agree with other parts of the country getting back to business though. Believe me I am getting tired of being home.
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 18:27:35 GMT -5
I live in Somerset County in central NJ .l live in a small town . Since week 3 of the lock-down. My town's cases have tripled . No one can convince me stay at home is working. Ha...I was curious where you lived that made you say it wasn't working, and I wouldn't try and convince you of anything. I never got that inclination from you. What i do not understand . Why is there no push to test the Swedish model . No matter what w do. Three thing will be a certainty The experts fail to see this A) There will be new cases until a full herd immunity is established either by exposure or vaccine. B) a small % of the cases will end in death. C) If we continue on this path . Economic collapse is inevitable
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 18:38:09 GMT -5
I live in Somerset County in central NJ .l live in a small town . Since week 3 of the lock-down. My town's cases have tripled . No one can convince me stay at home is working. why do you think they are increasing?increased testing the virus already had taken a foothold people are not doing as much as the can. Actually many are being down right stupid there is no 100% right answer but carrying on with just common sense would have resulted in so many more dead. That I have no doubt at all about. I do agree with other parts of the country getting back to business though. Believe me I am getting tired of being home. Here is an injection of logic. These two things have been determined A) It can take up to 14 days from exposure to 1st symptom. B) It can take up to 30 days from 1st symptom to the end of last symptom. 44 days . 50 at most (6 -7 weeks) That should include everyone in a household. These numbers are at the large end of the time line. We are in week 9 . That math does not add up. My town is still having more cases every week than we had pre-lock down. As I said that math does not work. If the math does not work . How can the policy be working ?
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Post by GameTime on May 12, 2020 19:01:03 GMT -5
why do you think they are increasing?increased testing the virus already had taken a foothold people are not doing as much as the can. Actually many are being down right stupid there is no 100% right answer but carrying on with just common sense would have resulted in so many more dead. That I have no doubt at all about. I do agree with other parts of the country getting back to business though. Believe me I am getting tired of being home. Here is an injection of logic. These two things have been determined A) It can take up to 14 days from exposure to 1st symptom. B) It can take up to 30 days from 1st symptom to the end of last symptom. 44 days . 50 at most (6 -7 weeks) That should include everyone in a household. These numbers are at the large end of the time line. We are in week 9 . That math does not add up. My town is still having more cases every week than we had pre-lock down. As I said that math does not work. If the math does not work . How can the policy be working ? when was day 1? No one knows. Could have been back in December. A pandemic like this is not an exact science and its a young (novel) virus that not too much is known about. Exact math numbers do not work out precisely. Also you keep leaving out the fact that more and more were getting tested at time went on. If no one ever got tested all we would have would be the death rates verified from autopsies. The global medical community agreed that mitigation was the right thing to do. I believe that. I would rather see an over reaction in a case like this than in under reaction. I know three people who would other wise be alive and no the flu would not have killed them any way. I also know people who have been furloughed or lost their jobs that other wise would still be employed. Like I said there is no right answer and many people disagree on how this was handled.
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Post by Delicreep on May 12, 2020 19:05:49 GMT -5
Ha...I was curious where you lived that made you say it wasn't working, and I wouldn't try and convince you of anything. I never got that inclination from you. What i do not understand . Why is there no push to test the Swedish model . No matter what w do. Three thing will be a certainty The experts fail to see this A) There will be new cases until a full herd immunity is established either by exposure or vaccine. B) a small % of the cases will end in death. C) If we continue on this path . Economic collapse is inevitable We, as Americans, will not tolerate lock down much longer. It's not in our nature.
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Post by Sarcasman on May 12, 2020 19:59:38 GMT -5
What would have been the correct action? Sweden's policy introduced protocols that did not include taking a sledgehammer to their economy . Per population % covid numbers are almost exactly as are the USA's Not perfect but a happy medium between safety and economic stability. A balanced approach. This is debunked below so I'll leave it there. Although I'll add that having headed up many businesses, I sometimes had to rely on subject matter experts, lawyers etc..before making a final decision. But as the person int the seat, once I made the decision, I owned it. For better or for worse. I'm not aware that Fauci made the decision to shut down the economy. I don't believe he had that authority. And that seems to really be what all the monday morning quarterbacking is about.
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Post by Sarcasman on May 12, 2020 20:04:51 GMT -5
Ha...I was curious where you lived that made you say it wasn't working, and I wouldn't try and convince you of anything. I never got that inclination from you. What i do not understand . Why is there no push to test the Swedish model . No matter what w do. Three thing will be a certainty The experts fail to see this A) There will be new cases until a full herd immunity is established either by exposure or vaccine. B) a small % of the cases will end in death. C) If we continue on this path . Economic collapse is inevitable That's a fair point. Why don't they decide to test out the Swedish model. Whose call is it? We know it's not Fauci's.
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 20:34:39 GMT -5
Sweden's policy introduced protocols that did not include taking a sledgehammer to their economy . Per population % covid numbers are almost exactly as are the USA's Not perfect but a happy medium between safety and economic stability. A balanced approach. This is debunked below so I'll leave it there. Although I'll add that having headed up many businesses, I sometimes had to rely on subject matter experts, lawyers etc..before making a final decision. But as the person int the seat, once I made the decision, I owned it. For better or for worse. I'm not aware that Fauci made the decision to shut down the economy. I don't believe he had that authority. And that seems to really be what all the monday morning quarterbacking is about. His failed suggestions were taken as the correct path to take. As I said his wrong suggestions are the worst kind of being wrong because they touch every American . Your subject matter experts did not in any way effect an entire country. You comparing Micro and Macro as if they are the same. The Governors of the States are not only dismantling their own states economy. While doing so they are trampling on the civil liberties of most Americans. The way I see in every angle I try to view this lock down from . It has failed in every way it could. Do you see this lock down working as a means to a favorable outcome for the Country?
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Post by dvision on May 12, 2020 20:42:18 GMT -5
I live in Somerset County in central NJ .l live in a small town . Since week 3 of the lock-down. My town's cases have tripled . No one can convince me stay at home is working. I have know idea how you can look at the hospital data and say it's not... covid19.nj.gov/#live-updates
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Post by Sarcasman on May 12, 2020 20:56:35 GMT -5
This is debunked below so I'll leave it there. Although I'll add that having headed up many businesses, I sometimes had to rely on subject matter experts, lawyers etc..before making a final decision. But as the person int the seat, once I made the decision, I owned it. For better or for worse. I'm not aware that Fauci made the decision to shut down the economy. I don't believe he had that authority. And that seems to really be what all the monday morning quarterbacking is about. His failed suggestions were taken as the correct path to take. As I said his wrong suggestions are the worst kind of being wrong because they touch every American . Your subject matter experts did not in any way effect an entire country. You comparing Micro and Macro as if they are the same. The Governors of the States are not only dismantling their own states economy. While doing so they are trampling on the civil liberties of most Americans. The way I see in every angle I try to view this lock down from . It has failed in every way it could. Do you see this lock down working as a means to a favorable outcome for the Country? Perhaps I wasn't making myself clear, my bad. He's just one subject matter expert on a team of subject matter experts supporting a position that has the power and authority to avail itself of any/all subject matter experts in the world. He didn't make the decision. He does not and never has had that authority. Micro/macro is irrelevant to the example. For better or for worse this has been handled 50 different ways based on the state. That's what our leaders decided, so that's what we're doing. I have no desire to scapegoat one guy for a decision that wasn't his. Particularly after the fact. I can't answer the outcome question because I don't know which outcome we're measuring.
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Post by DandyDon on May 12, 2020 21:06:02 GMT -5
Sweden's policy introduced protocols that did not include taking a sledgehammer to their economy . Per population % covid numbers are almost exactly as are the USA's Not perfect but a happy medium between safety and economic stability. A balanced approach. Among Sweden's advantage was 1) catching the virus very early 2) wide spread and early testing, 3) strict identification and tracking systems - all 3 massive failures in the US, the last doesn't even really exist yet. Sweden also pays 100% of your pay from the very first day you are sick, removing the incentive to go to work sick. FUN FACT: the tax rate in Sweden is a mere 57.1%, which funds the universal healthcare they enjoy. And while I applaud their efforts and plan, I am unsure how what they did could in any way have been duplicated here in the US. emoji
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 21:08:13 GMT -5
His failed suggestions were taken as the correct path to take. As I said his wrong suggestions are the worst kind of being wrong because they touch every American . Your subject matter experts did not in any way effect an entire country. You comparing Micro and Macro as if they are the same. The Governors of the States are not only dismantling their own states economy. While doing so they are trampling on the civil liberties of most Americans. The way I see in every angle I try to view this lock down from . It has failed in every way it could. Do you see this lock down working as a means to a favorable outcome for the Country? Perhaps I wasn't making myself clear, my bad. He's just one subject matter expert on a team of subject matter experts supporting a position that has the power and authority to avail itself of any/all subject matter experts in the world. He didn't make the decision. He does not and never has had that authority. Micro/macro is irrelevant to the example. For better or for worse this has been handled 50 different ways based on the state. That's what our leaders decided, so that's what we're doing. I have no desire to scapegoat one guy for a decision that wasn't his. Particularly after the fact. I can't answer the outcome question because I don't know which outcome we're measuring. When he goes on TV in front of the American population and sates what he said today. Saying the economy and the liberties of Americans are least important. This was his message he gave. Your middleclass existence is of no consequence . I have no problem throwing him under bus.
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Post by DandyDon on May 12, 2020 21:08:45 GMT -5
I live in Somerset County in central NJ .l live in a small town . Since week 3 of the lock-down. My town's cases have tripled . No one can convince me stay at home is working. Are you claiming you know where you would be if they had not locked down? I get no one can convince you of much, but are you really claiming you are also an expert at epidemics? Even if they totally opened up the entire state tomorrow, 80% of people would still not participate in most activities. I get the frustration, just not the amateurs that think they can watch the news and know more than professionals.
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 21:16:21 GMT -5
I live in Somerset County in central NJ .l live in a small town . Since week 3 of the lock-down. My town's cases have tripled . No one can convince me stay at home is working. Are you claiming you know where they would be if they had not locked down? I get no one can convince you of much, but are you really claiming you are also an expert at epidemics? I never claimed that. Not once. What I am claiming is the lock down is not stopping the spread. So Donny since you are a mind reader. You explain to me after 9 weeks . Why is this not producing the desired results.
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 21:24:04 GMT -5
I really do not get any of you. How do you expect to maintain your livelihood after 15 weeks 25 weeks 50 weeks? How may company failures have happen for any of you to say enough is enough. What if your company fails because of this ? But keep your head in the sand.
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Post by Delicreep on May 12, 2020 21:25:25 GMT -5
Perhaps I wasn't making myself clear, my bad. He's just one subject matter expert on a team of subject matter experts supporting a position that has the power and authority to avail itself of any/all subject matter experts in the world. He didn't make the decision. He does not and never has had that authority. Micro/macro is irrelevant to the example. For better or for worse this has been handled 50 different ways based on the state. That's what our leaders decided, so that's what we're doing. I have no desire to scapegoat one guy for a decision that wasn't his. Particularly after the fact. I can't answer the outcome question because I don't know which outcome we're measuring. When he goes on TV in front of the American population and sates what he said today. Saying the economy and the liberties of Americans are least important. This was his message he gave. Your middleclass existence is of no consequence . I have no problem throwing him under bus. Here's where you lose me a bit - he's a Dr, not an economist. I want my Dr to give me his medical take on things, and I frankly don't care what he has to say about the economy. That's the job of my chief economist, and coincidentally, I don't want his medical opinion in any way, shape or form. In this case, it's Trumps job to listen to these two people and come up with a single policy.
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 21:28:26 GMT -5
I live in Somerset County in central NJ .l live in a small town . Since week 3 of the lock-down. My town's cases have tripled . No one can convince me stay at home is working. Are you claiming you know where you would be if they had not locked down? I get no one can convince you of much, but are you really claiming you are also an expert at epidemics? Even if they totally opened up the entire state tomorrow, 80% of people would still not participate in most activities. I get the frustration, just not the amateurs that think they can watch the news and know more than professionals. So now you not only claim to know what I think. You also know what 80 present of the population will do. You should be running the country.
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 21:33:40 GMT -5
When he goes on TV in front of the American population and sates what he said today. Saying the economy and the liberties of Americans are least important. This was his message he gave. Your middleclass existence is of no consequence . I have no problem throwing him under bus. Here's where you lose me a bit - he's a Dr, not an economist. I want my Dr to give me his medical take on things, and I frankly don't care what he has to say about the economy. That's the job of my chief economist, and coincidentally, I don't want his medical opinion in any way, shape or form. In this case, it's Trumps job to listen to these two people and come up with a single policy. Are you saying Trump is telling the governors what to do? This so called Doctor speaks and the governors run with is as if it was gospel to remove constitutional rights.
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Post by Morehead State on May 12, 2020 21:34:31 GMT -5
I never got that inclination from you. What i do not understand . Why is there no push to test the Swedish model . No matter what w do. Three thing will be a certainty The experts fail to see this A) There will be new cases until a full herd immunity is established either by exposure or vaccine. B) a small % of the cases will end in death. C) If we continue on this path . Economic collapse is inevitable We, as Americans, will not tolerate lock down much longer. It's not in our nature. It's the Frog and the Scorpion. The government is the frog and we are the collective scorpion.
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 21:44:08 GMT -5
We, as Americans, will not tolerate lock down much longer. It's not in our nature. It's the Frog and the Scorpion. The government is the frog and we are the collective scorpion.
Explain how is the population the antagonist? Is it not the Government the one removing personal freedoms?
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Post by Sarcasman on May 12, 2020 21:45:51 GMT -5
Perhaps I wasn't making myself clear, my bad. He's just one subject matter expert on a team of subject matter experts supporting a position that has the power and authority to avail itself of any/all subject matter experts in the world. He didn't make the decision. He does not and never has had that authority. Micro/macro is irrelevant to the example. For better or for worse this has been handled 50 different ways based on the state. That's what our leaders decided, so that's what we're doing. I have no desire to scapegoat one guy for a decision that wasn't his. Particularly after the fact. I can't answer the outcome question because I don't know which outcome we're measuring. When he goes on TV in front of the American population and sates what he said today. Saying the economy and the liberties of Americans are least important. This was his message he gave. Your middleclass existence is of no consequence . I have no problem throwing him under bus. Fair enough. I didn't hear what he said today. But "Your middleclass existence is of no consequence" is a pretty start message. I'm glad I never watch that nonsense.
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Post by Delicreep on May 12, 2020 21:48:15 GMT -5
We, as Americans, will not tolerate lock down much longer. It's not in our nature. It's the Frog and the Scorpion. The government is the frog and we are the collective scorpion.
Well...I'm hoping for a better ending!
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Post by Morehead State on May 12, 2020 21:49:57 GMT -5
It's the Frog and the Scorpion. The government is the frog and we are the collective scorpion.
Explain how is the population the antagonist? Is it not the Government the one removing personal freedoms? They certainly are...I agree. But as Deli suggested, it's not in our nature to allow our freedoms to be taken for long. They are holding on to the hope that we will be so scared, we won't dare leave our homes. I think Deli is right. There will be a collective "**** you".....and that time is not far off. Folks know that the most susceptible are older folks and people with certain health problems. We will eventually accept to low risks and move on with our lives. Certainly with certain reasonable safeguards.
As Deli suggested...it's not in our nature to sit at home. Just as the Scorpion couldn't help himself but to sting the frog. We will claim our Constitutional power back from the government who for some reason, all of the sudden thinks they have the power to tell us how to live our lives.
They don't.
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Post by Sarcasman on May 12, 2020 21:55:55 GMT -5
I really do not get any of you. How do you expect to maintain your livelihood after 15 weeks 25 weeks 50 weeks? How may company failures have happen for any of you to say enough is enough. What if your company fails because of this ? But keep your head in the sand. I don't disagree that the economy needs to get going again. It's critically important. And maybe once we get through this thing we can finally focus on some of the significant problems this economy has. I seriously doubt this is the last time we're going to see something like this in our lifetimes.
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 21:57:47 GMT -5
When he goes on TV in front of the American population and sates what he said today. Saying the economy and the liberties of Americans are least important. This was his message he gave. Your middleclass existence is of no consequence . I have no problem throwing him under bus. Fair enough. I didn't hear what he said today. But "Your middleclass existence is of no consequence" is a pretty start message. I'm glad I never watch that nonsense. To say the lock down must be adhered or it is a bleak outcome without offering any other method to curb the spread, is basically saying all in the middleclass and below that income level do not matter.
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Post by Delicreep on May 12, 2020 21:58:08 GMT -5
Here's where you lose me a bit - he's a Dr, not an economist. I want my Dr to give me his medical take on things, and I frankly don't care what he has to say about the economy. That's the job of my chief economist, and coincidentally, I don't want his medical opinion in any way, shape or form. In this case, it's Trumps job to listen to these two people and come up with a single policy. Are you saying Trump is telling the governors what to do? This so called Doctor speaks and the governors run with is as if it was gospel to remove constitutional rights. TEM...there is a national policy from Trump, and a pretty good effort by Trump to get states to ignore that policy. Morehead's Governor could care less what Fauci says. If you looked state by state, I would bet way more than 1/2 don't care. Your Governor does, as does mine (although both are using their own medical teams to make decisions).
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 22:01:19 GMT -5
I really do not get any of you. How do you expect to maintain your livelihood after 15 weeks 25 weeks 50 weeks? How may company failures have happen for any of you to say enough is enough. What if your company fails because of this ? But keep your head in the sand. I don't disagree that the economy needs to get going again. It's critically important. And maybe once we get through this thing we can finally focus on some of the significant problems this economy has. I seriously doubt this is the last time we're going to see something like this in our lifetimes. We better hope it is. Because if the only solution to the problem is to nullify the Constitution . We are doomed as a nation.
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Post by Morehead State on May 12, 2020 22:13:04 GMT -5
Are you saying Trump is telling the governors what to do? This so called Doctor speaks and the governors run with is as if it was gospel to remove constitutional rights. TEM...there is a national policy from Trump, and a pretty good effort by Trump to get states to ignore that policy. Morehead's Governor could care less what Fauci says. If you looked state by state, I would bet way more than 1/2 don't care. Your Governor does, as does mine (although both are using their own medical teams to make decisions). Well that's not completely true. Our governor is a Dem. and was quick to shut down the state. Now there are a total of 20 active cases currently in the state. We have no reason not to start opening. We went three days without a single new case and even when we get new cases, it's usually one or two in a day.
And BTW..the CDC guidelines for opening up are a joke. They are statistically impossible. Even here we haven't had 14 straight days with fewer cases each day....even though we've often had no new cases in a day. Everything happens in a jagged line. If we have no new cases for 3 days and then have one the next...the clock has to start all over again.
It's impossible.
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Post by TEM on May 12, 2020 22:14:49 GMT -5
Are you saying Trump is telling the governors what to do? This so called Doctor speaks and the governors run with is as if it was gospel to remove constitutional rights. TEM...there is a national policy from Trump, and a pretty good effort by Trump to get states to ignore that policy. Morehead's Governor could care less what Fauci says. If you looked state by state, I would bet way more than 1/2 don't care. Your Governor does, as does mine (although both are using their own medical teams to make decisions). Tell that to the Governors of NJ and NY. The owners of my company have be forced to sue them both because they deemed half of our business nonessential. Their law suit claims the government cannot dictate who can conduct operations and who cannot. We own over 900 commercial real-estate properties that our tenants can not occupy to conduct business. Because of that. Most can not pay rent. That does not exempt our company from paying the property tax that is due.
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Post by Morehead State on May 12, 2020 22:16:54 GMT -5
TEM...there is a national policy from Trump, and a pretty good effort by Trump to get states to ignore that policy. Morehead's Governor could care less what Fauci says. If you looked state by state, I would bet way more than 1/2 don't care. Your Governor does, as does mine (although both are using their own medical teams to make decisions). Tell that to the Governors of NJ and NY. The owners of my company have be forced to sue them both because they deemed half of our business nonessential. Their law suit claims the government cannot dictate who can conduct operations and who cannot. We own over 900 commercial real-estate properties that our tenants can not occupy to conduct business. Because of that. Most can not pay rent. That does not exempt our company from pay that property tax that is due. What politicians don't understand is that every business is essential to those who work there.
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