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Post by Kruunch on Sept 15, 2020 9:16:41 GMT -5
First, I don’t complain.. That’s for bitches, I’m critical. Welcome to the club, you finally saw something on the field and you didn’t give it many excuses for it. Did you expect Gates to play well? I sure didn’t.. I’m still not sold that he can play center, how many 6’5” centers are in the league? One maybe two tops? Your frustration should be at the coaches, they’re the ones who continue to put square pegs in round holes. They’re reasoning is obvious, they want to put the best 5 guys on the line. Regardless if they have played the position. The Giants like Gates a lot.. Since he wasn’t going to beat out Thomas, Zeitler, OT Fleming they felt center was an ideal spot for him. Now, as for last night. That was a failure across the board. Rewatch the game, not once did any of the line push their guys or make a hole for Barkley. Matter of fact, the interior of Hernandez, Gates and Zeitler were awful. How many times did you hear Alualu name? Or Bush and Williams name? The Steelers mike linebackers. I lost count on how many times Barkley got hit in the backfield, but in your line of thinking that’s on Gates. He’s making the calls, and clearly he can’t block. And there is the F-ing problem . The canter is like the QB . If he doesn't play well . The rest of the line can't . We don't have 4 All Pros and "wish we had a center". That can be compensated for. We have an Average O-line and a clueless center. That Cluelessness will reflect across the line. How is it for that the good part of 9 years . We bring guys in that played well on other teams Solder Zeitler... They come on the Giants and look like they never played. Ever wonder why? My last post explains why. It is not the other 4 . it is the Center and it has been for a long time. But lets keep changing the other 4 and put "Some guy" in as the Center. Because that model seems to be a plethora of success. Then point your finger at everyone’s favorite son Joe Judge. He’s our head coach, he’s the man who assembled this roster with Gettleman. He’s the one who thought Nick Gates can play center. Could it be that when we sign or trade for players like Solder and Zeitler they’re at the back end of their careers? Remember, offensive line is like running backs. Once they get to 28-29 there bodies start to break down. Chris Snee fell off a cliff at 29. I don’t know how you can blame one guy on what was clearly a collaborative failure. No one did there job yesterday.
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Post by Dezzr on Sept 15, 2020 9:17:53 GMT -5
Did we watch the same game? How can anyone expect Barkley to do anything when the Steelers were in our backfield as soon as the ball was snapped on almost every running play? Granted, he was awful picking up the blitz last night.
Our oline is still trash, people. Doesnt matter if its running the ball or passing the ball, they cant block for shit.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Sept 15, 2020 9:18:01 GMT -5
This is one of the worst thread titles I have seen on any message board. It seems like we have fans that try to run every good player we get out of town. If this thread ran Barkley out of town, he would still lose yards.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Sept 15, 2020 9:19:24 GMT -5
Did we watch the same game? How can anyone expect Barkley to do anything when the Steelers were in our backfield as soon as the ball was snapped on almost every running play? Granted, he was awful picking up the blitz last night. Our oline is still trash, people. Doesnt matter if its running the ball or passing the ball, they cant block for shit. If our OL is still trash, DG needs to be fired today. It better not be trash anymore. This better just be early game no preseason hickups. They have invested over and over in the OL.
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Post by Dezzr on Sept 15, 2020 9:19:36 GMT -5
Can the op elaborate on Barkleys style and why it's not effective?
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Post by TEM on Sept 15, 2020 9:23:09 GMT -5
And there is the F-ing problem . The canter is like the QB . If he doesn't play well . The rest of the line can't . We don't have 4 All Pros and "wish we had a center". That can be compensated for. We have an Average O-line and a clueless center. That Cluelessness will reflect across the line. How is it for that the good part of 9 years . We bring guys in that played well on other teams Solder Zeitler... They come on the Giants and look like they never played. Ever wonder why? My last post explains why. It is not the other 4 . it is the Center and it has been for a long time. But lets keep changing the other 4 and put "Some guy" in as the Center. Because that model seems to be a plethora of success. Then point your finger at everyone’s favorite son Joe Judge. He’s our head coach, he’s the man who assembled this roster with Gettleman. He’s the one who thought Nick Gates can play center. Could it be that when we sign or trade for players like Solder and Zeitler they’re at the back end of their careers? Remember, offensive line is like running backs. Once they get to 28-29 there bodies start to break down. Chris Snee fell off a cliff at 29. I don’t know how you can blame one guy on what was clearly a collaborative failure. No one did there job yesterday. I agree it is on the HC and GM. This is it in a nutshell. We don't have a Center. I got an Idea. Lets put an undrafted FA in there who has never played the position. AKA " any ole guy will do" I admit I am on a rant. But am I wrong?
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Post by nick030567 on Sept 15, 2020 9:27:56 GMT -5
It's true. But the line did play okay at the end of 2018 with Pulley. Even Brett Jones played well, then he got traded because the the league said the Giants aren't allow to have an average OL. I mean that's the only way such moves make sense lol. Because what they had behind Jones was clearly sub-par. But I do agree with you. Just want to give Gates another week or two before I say he's incompetent. If it was any other year I'd be a little less patient. Pully had the same problems with run support . Jones is out of the league. At what point is the realization that a center is necessity and not an after thought going to be acknowledged. I agree. I mean they tried with Richburg and failed terribly. That guy was soft when he was here, with a name like that he should've been the next O'Hara lol. Even Baas was just okay, got pushed back in Eli's face all the time. Pulley actually was good in 2018. I mean he and Jamon Brown came in and actually enabled that offensive resurgence at the end of that year, those few weeks that many of us hope for 2019.
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Post by fifthavephil on Sept 15, 2020 9:30:10 GMT -5
Top NFL PLAYERS, will at times make plays. When there nothing and make it into something .
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Post by jmike on Sept 15, 2020 9:42:57 GMT -5
This is true. But there was a few plays that he had room and didn't do anything. One in particular when he had a large hole to his left created by Thomas and Hernandez with about 8 yards of open ground.....so he runs head first into Hernandez' ass like he is Mark Sanchez. I though that the commentary was so bad last night. I was screaming for Saquon to go left on that play, and the announcers never even mentioned it. Oh yeah, and they kept blaming Thomas for Bud Dupree, when it was clear that the plan was to leave Dupree free as they ran to the other side. Unfortunately, Saquon doesn't like to move forward unless there is a huge hole, so Dupree was able to come down the entire line and drag him down from behind. In any event, certainly not Thomas' fault. Thomas played well I think. Not perfectly, and it looked like he blocked the wrong guy on some plays. Though when it came to blocking the guy he was blocking, he was really good at at it.
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Post by jmike on Sept 15, 2020 9:48:35 GMT -5
Did we watch the same game? How can anyone expect Barkley to do anything when the Steelers were in our backfield as soon as the ball was snapped on almost every running play? Granted, he was awful picking up the blitz last night. Our oline is still trash, people. Doesnt matter if its running the ball or passing the ball, they cant block for shit. Based on what the Steelers were doing, they clearly were geared up to stop Saquan; it would be difficult for him to have accomplished anything last night. Though there were a few plays with opportunities to do something and he just didn't. So his poor production last night was not just everyone else's fault; he shares some responsibility there. He is maddeningly inconsistent, and this team needs a consistent threat more than a home run hitter in the backfield. He has the talent to be both, but as of yet he is more Dave Kingman than Willie Mays.
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Post by FundamentallySoundJones on Sept 15, 2020 9:49:28 GMT -5
Since drafted he hasnt exactly translated to wins. Its why you dont draft a rb so early or pay them rookie qb money.
He isnt a problem. Coaches just have to figure out what he is and how to use him and its not as a everydown back. Imo.
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Post by jaymas on Sept 15, 2020 9:51:01 GMT -5
I don't want to hear about this style of running crap. Anyone who actually thinks Saquon is only a "dancer" never watched him in college, and didn't watch his rookie year. They also didn't watch guys like Barry Sanders, who absolutely looked for big plays to their detriment sometimes, didn't mean they can't run between the tackles. Saquon can run with tremendous power, and downhill. I will admit, he seems a little tentative right now, which also was a slight issue for him his rookie year early on. I trust this coaching staff to get it corrected.
Last night was not on him. He was getting hit in the backfield on like over 50% of plays. The running game needs to get it together though. We need him to have the dynamic offense we want to have. On an related side note, I already like how Garrett is using him in the passing game vs. Shurmur. I think he lined up out of the backfield last night more than he did in all of 2019 under Shurm.
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Post by jaymas on Sept 15, 2020 9:51:52 GMT -5
Top NFL PLAYERS, will at times make plays. When there nothing and make it into something . He spent a season and a half doing that. One game where he didn't doesn't make that a thing.
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Post by Kruunch on Sept 15, 2020 9:58:11 GMT -5
Then point your finger at everyone’s favorite son Joe Judge. He’s our head coach, he’s the man who assembled this roster with Gettleman. He’s the one who thought Nick Gates can play center. Could it be that when we sign or trade for players like Solder and Zeitler they’re at the back end of their careers? Remember, offensive line is like running backs. Once they get to 28-29 there bodies start to break down. Chris Snee fell off a cliff at 29. I don’t know how you can blame one guy on what was clearly a collaborative failure. No one did there job yesterday. I agree it is on the HC and GM. This is it in a nutshell. We don't have a Center. I got an Idea. Lets put an undrafted FA in there who has never played the position. AKA " any ole guy will do" I admit I am on a rant. But am I wrong? Of course you aren’t wrong. Look, I fully expect the Giants to give Gates a lot of rope before he hangs himself. Our biggest concern right now should be how are we going to utilize Barkley in our ground game? Are fans forgetting how frustrated he was last year during games? If things don’t change I fully expect him to get like that again. You’re Barkley, do you feel the Giants are putting you in the best situations to succeed? Do you feel you’re wasting your prime years behind a putrid line? I would bet those thoughts are running through his head.
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Post by DandyDon on Sept 15, 2020 10:05:13 GMT -5
I agree it is on the HC and GM. This is it in a nutshell. We don't have a Center. I got an Idea. Lets put an undrafted FA in there who has never played the position. AKA " any ole guy will do" I admit I am on a rant. But am I wrong? Of course you aren’t wrong. Look, I fully expect the Giants to give Gates a lot of rope before he hangs himself. Our biggest concern right now should be how are we going to utilize Barkley in our ground game? Are fans forgetting how frustrated he was last year during games? If things don’t change I fully expect him to get like that again. You’re Barkley, do you feel the Giants are putting you in the best situations to succeed? Do you feel you’re wasting your prime years behind a putrid line? I would bet those thoughts are running through his head. He's got to be frustrated. This has been literally years of him getting hit in the backfield almost every other run.
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Post by TEM on Sept 15, 2020 10:06:43 GMT -5
I agree it is on the HC and GM. This is it in a nutshell. We don't have a Center. I got an Idea. Lets put an undrafted FA in there who has never played the position. AKA " any ole guy will do" I admit I am on a rant. But am I wrong? Of course you aren’t wrong. Look, I fully expect the Giants to give Gates a lot of rope before he hangs himself. Our biggest concern right now should be how are we going to utilize Barkley in our ground game? Are fans forgetting how frustrated he was last year during games? If things don’t change I fully expect him to get like that again. You’re Barkley, do you feel the Giants are putting you in the best situations to succeed? Do you feel you’re wasting your prime years behind a putrid line? I would bet those thoughts are running through his head. I agree with the entire post. Me I think Gates should be on a short leash. Like 1 more quarter short leash.
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Post by vbgiantsfan on Sept 15, 2020 10:07:06 GMT -5
So, I see Barkley as a front runner, as in when there is green pasture in front of him, he looks all world. However, when things aren't going his way, he folds. He doesn't grind. He doesn't pass block. He gets demoralized. You see it on his face when he's on the sidelines. He's got an Odell like demeanor sometimes.
This is why we need to start using Gallman more. Someone who is going to grind it out, fall forward, get the dirty yards.
In terms of the line, I can point to numerous times Flemming, Zeitler, Hernandez all sucked, got beat, missed an assignment, etc. Hell on one play, Flemming's back was to the LOS watching Jones get assaulted. Are you kidding me?
One thing I'm ready to do is call time of death on the Hernandez project. He has been bad since he started with us. Frankly, I'd move Gates to LG and put Pulley back at center at this point. That'll improve the line.
Yes, Gates definitely was a disappointment (I thought he was going to be great, maybe he still will be) but he's not the full issue. Thomas was our best lineman yesterday and he was far from having a great day.
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Post by giantlegacy on Sept 15, 2020 10:16:04 GMT -5
I agree it is on the HC and GM. This is it in a nutshell. We don't have a Center. I got an Idea. Lets put an undrafted FA in there who has never played the position. AKA " any ole guy will do" I admit I am on a rant. But am I wrong? Of course you aren’t wrong. Look, I fully expect the Giants to give Gates a lot of rope before he hangs himself. Our biggest concern right now should be how are we going to utilize Barkley in our ground game? Are fans forgetting how frustrated he was last year during games? If things don’t change I fully expect him to get like that again. You’re Barkley, do you feel the Giants are putting you in the best situations to succeed? Do you feel you’re wasting your prime years behind a putrid line? I would bet those thoughts are running through his head. Honestly they have to go spread and get as many players out of the box as possible. Engram looked completely confused inline,his job was to take on the defensive back run blizing and he was blocing air and slow because he was guessing on who to block Say what you will about Shurmur but he actually had it right as far as how to use Engram as a blocker in the running game,detached from the line on an island taking on safeties and linebackers. If anything being that in effect I think this team treats this as a pre season game to evaluate...Judge 101 Tell me what you can do Judge,Garrett,Kitchens goes back to tapes of 2018 and 2019 and see where Engram was actually good enough in run blocking. Detach into the slot,it also take a player out of the box. That 3 TE look was very interesting..... You can turn that 13 into a pseudo 11 with Engram and Smith detached to the slot,motion out Engram to between the numbers and slot so he can option route out still and block..Slayton out wide. Shotgun with Barkley RPO The only thing I was disappointed in was the lack of RPO action...maybd because there was such jailbreaks against the run early it was shelvef because they didn't want to risk both Jones and Barkley getting blasted at the same time while the ball was in flux. Have to remember this was a pseudo preseason game plan for the staff too
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Post by krappdetector on Sept 15, 2020 10:16:41 GMT -5
This was not one players fault but you have to admit that Barkley is apparently a one-dimensional player who needs a change of scenery. He runs superbly in space. But in small, short lived holes.. of average effectiveness. Responsive and effective blocks? No can do. Catching the ball with reliability? .. not with high enough consistency to cheer about. So.. All our opponents know we are making SB the centerpiece of our game plan so they shoot their load and demolish the run game. Then ALL WE HAVE IS A PASS GAME.. with few good receivers and a broken 'mini-tool' of a tight end.
It is evident that mistakes were made a couple of years ago.. in drafting, FA signings of aging players, 'win-now' bs, etc. I think the solution is obvious but painful and one the front office will dread to make.
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Post by krappdetector on Sept 15, 2020 10:25:01 GMT -5
I don't want to hear about this style of running crap. Anyone who actually thinks Saquon is only a "dancer" never watched him in college, and didn't watch his rookie year. They also didn't watch guys like Barry Sanders, who absolutely looked for big plays to their detriment sometimes, didn't mean they can't run between the tackles. Saquon can run with tremendous power, and downhill. I will admit, he seems a little tentative right now, which also was a slight issue for him his rookie year early on. I trust this coaching staff to get it corrected. Last night was not on him. He was getting hit in the backfield on like over 50% of plays. The running game needs to get it together though. We need him to have the dynamic offense we want to have. On an related side note, I already like how Garrett is using him in the passing game vs. Shurmur. I think he lined up out of the backfield last night more than he did in all of 2019 under Shurm. The NFL Steelers are in NO WAY equivalent to the opponents that a runner faces as rookie in College. Dupree was unblocked whether by plan or accident, but regardless, SB got the hand off and accelerated too late so it didn't matter if the hole was there or not. DSJ
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Post by Kruunch on Sept 15, 2020 10:26:18 GMT -5
This was not one players fault but you have to admit that Barkley is apparently a one-dimensional player who needs a change of scenery. He runs superbly in space.But in small, short lived holes.. of average effectiveness. Responsive and effective blocks? No can do. Catching the ball with reliability? .. not with high enough consistency to cheer about. So.. All our opponents know we are making SB the centerpiece of our game plan so they shoot their load and demolish the run game. Then ALL WE HAVE IS A PASS GAME.. with few good receivers and a broken 'mini-tool' of a tight end. It is evident that mistakes were made a couple of years ago.. in drafting, FA signings of aging players, 'win-now' bs, etc. I think the solution is obvious but painful and one the front office will dread to make. Name me an NFL player who doesn’t run well in space? Barkley is a great player, one of the best at his position. But, he just does not fit into what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to build an identity with a young QB and star running back. This isn’t the early ‘90s Cowboys with Smith and the Great Wall. Our line has issues at every facet of the game. Pass blocking was ok last night though. Barkleys favorite player growing up was Barry Sanders. Unfortunately, he’s falling right into what Barry dealt with. A team that just does not know how to build a line for him. If we’re lucky we might have a decent line next year. If I’m Barkley that’s unacceptable..
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theproblem
Special Teams
Formerly BJacobs aka The Problem
Posts: 406
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Post by theproblem on Sept 15, 2020 10:28:52 GMT -5
No, I'm TheProblem...
But in all seriousness, if anyone is going to pin last night's lack of running on Barkley, they either need a better television or glasses. I might even go as far as to say that maybe football isn't a sport you should be watching. Sounds insulting, yes I know, but that's how I feel about using last night's game to come to any kind of conclusion about Barkley and his running style.
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Post by roundabout on Sept 15, 2020 10:36:03 GMT -5
This is true. But there was a few plays that he had room and didn't do anything. One in particular when he had a large hole to his left created by Thomas and Hernandez with about 8 yards of open ground.....so he runs head first into Hernandez' ass like he is Mark Sanchez. I though that the commentary was so bad last night. I was screaming for Saquon to go left on that play, and the announcers never even mentioned it. Oh yeah, and they kept blaming Thomas for Bud Dupree, when it was clear that the plan was to leave Dupree free as they ran to the other side. Unfortunately, Saquon doesn't like to move forward unless there is a huge hole, so Dupree was able to come down the entire line and drag him down from behind. In any event, certainly not Thomas' fault. I saw the same whole that Barkley missed...Leave it to Espn not to show the replay of a potentially big play negated by Barkley's poor vision
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Post by krappdetector on Sept 15, 2020 10:54:26 GMT -5
This was not one players fault but you have to admit that Barkley is apparently a one-dimensional player who needs a change of scenery. He runs superbly in space.But in small, short lived holes.. of average effectiveness. Responsive and effective blocks? No can do. Catching the ball with reliability? .. not with high enough consistency to cheer about. So.. All our opponents know we are making SB the centerpiece of our game plan so they shoot their load and demolish the run game. Then ALL WE HAVE IS A PASS GAME.. with few good receivers and a broken 'mini-tool' of a tight end. It is evident that mistakes were made a couple of years ago.. in drafting, FA signings of aging players, 'win-now' bs, etc. I think the solution is obvious but painful and one the front office will dread to make. Name me an NFL player who doesn’t run well in space? Barkley is a great player, one of the best at his position. But, he just does not fit into what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to build an identity with a young QB and star running back. This isn’t the early ‘90s Cowboys with Smith and the Great Wall. Our line has issues at every facet of the game. Pass blocking was ok last night though. Barkleys favorite player growing up was Barry Sanders. Unfortunately, he’s falling right into what Barry dealt with. A team that just does not know how to build a line for him. If we’re lucky we might have a decent line next year. If I’m Barkley that’s unacceptable.. Exactly. So the solution is obvious to me.. and I don't mean to keep running him into the middle.
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Post by TCHOF on Sept 15, 2020 11:00:32 GMT -5
Did we watch the same game? How can anyone expect Barkley to do anything when the Steelers were in our backfield as soon as the ball was snapped on almost every running play? Granted, he was awful picking up the blitz last night. Our oline is still trash, people. Doesnt matter if its running the ball or passing the ball, they cant block for shit. Based on what the Steelers were doing, they clearly were geared up to stop Saquan; it would be difficult for him to have accomplished anything last night. Though there were a few plays with opportunities to do something and he just didn't. So his poor production last night was not just everyone else's fault; he shares some responsibility there. He is maddeningly inconsistent, and this team needs a consistent threat more than a home run hitter in the backfield. He has the talent to be both, but as of yet he is more Dave Kingman than Willie Mays. I have a couple of problems with Barkley's game: (1) when he is facing a stacked line with no hole to be found, instead of putting his head down and running hard to get back to the line or even a short gain, he dances around way behind the LOS. Seems to turn a lot of 1 yard losses into 6 yard losses. (2) he is a liability on blitz pickup. At this point, teams realize that they need to send someone at him on 3rd down if he's in the game. That's a big problem.
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Post by vbgiantsfan on Sept 15, 2020 11:04:05 GMT -5
Based on what the Steelers were doing, they clearly were geared up to stop Saquan; it would be difficult for him to have accomplished anything last night. Though there were a few plays with opportunities to do something and he just didn't. So his poor production last night was not just everyone else's fault; he shares some responsibility there. He is maddeningly inconsistent, and this team needs a consistent threat more than a home run hitter in the backfield. He has the talent to be both, but as of yet he is more Dave Kingman than Willie Mays. I have a couple of problems with Barkley's game: (1) when he is facing a stacked line with no hole to be found, instead of putting his head down and running hard to get back to the line or even a short gain, he dances around way behind the LOS. Seems to turn a lot of 1 yard losses into 6 yard losses. (2) he is a liability on blitz pickup. At this point, teams realize that they need to send someone at him on 3rd down if he's in the game. That's a big problem. This. And a guy like Gallman who cuts once, falls forward, and is a good pass protector solves a lot of these issues. He can get the dirty yards. I don't understand why he isn't getting a fair shake with the Giants.
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Rudy
Special Teams
Posts: 666
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Post by Rudy on Sept 15, 2020 11:07:08 GMT -5
I don't think he's the problem
However, I think he tries too hard to make something happen and if it doesn't, it gets to him mentally.
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Post by GMenNY21 on Sept 15, 2020 11:07:16 GMT -5
The Barkley smear campaign is in full force over here.He missed a few blitz pickups and dropped a couple passes. His online couldn’t open up a hole for him the whole game. Yet D.J. who I like btw , continues to make game altering mistakes and some here r saying it’s a process/ he’s young / he will make mistakes etc etc. Talk about a double standard. Keep that same energy for all players
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Rudy
Special Teams
Posts: 666
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Post by Rudy on Sept 15, 2020 11:10:50 GMT -5
The Barkley smear campaign is in full force over here.He missed a few blitz pickups and dropped a couple passes. His online couldn’t open up a hole for him the whole game. Yet D.J. who I like btw , continues to make game altering mistakes and some here r saying it’s a process/ he’s young / he will make mistakes etc etc. Talk about a double standard. Keep that same energy for all players Lol it's funny reading some comments from certain posters. Some will defend PS players or players they THINK can make a difference with zero experience.
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Post by Martin on Sept 15, 2020 11:13:29 GMT -5
We had the same problem last season with the Center . I am pissed. What makes the FO and Coaching staff think any ole guy can play center? Why not just use the punter in as a corner. IMO; It is the same logic. He can tackle the returner at times . So he should be able to tackle the guy catching the ball. It is no diffrent making a Guard or Tackle play Center. When is that AHA moment going to kick in and the Staff realizes, A Center is a Center for a reason , and not "any ole O-line player will do"? If the O-line player's IQ is below 130. He should no be playing a position that requires a high degree of intellect. It is obvious by him missing his own assignments. He does not have the head for the job. You can't fix stupid. He is a good Guard and a deaccent Tackle. He proved he is not a center. Marc Colombo doesn't know this? I'm sure he used as a guide the Dallas Oline to determine the best players going forward. Amazing just how bad they were.
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