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Post by imgrate on Sept 16, 2020 8:25:00 GMT -5
A common thing people keep saying this week is that we should have drafted or signed a pure Center. That said, how did all the rookie centers that we passed on do?
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 8:27:56 GMT -5
That matters Why?
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 8:30:44 GMT -5
Since O'hara:
Jim Cordle a true center (was fair)
Dallas Reynolds Converted OT (fail)
Winston Richburg a true center ( was stupid)
Brett Jones Nothing more than a Backup 3 games as a starter in Minnesota . Benched and waved.
Spencer Pulley a converted guard ( a backup as a starter. )
Jon Halapio a converted guard.
These are just the guys that started. Not including the "lets see what this guy can do"
There is one commonality O'hara = good O-lines and it did no matter who played OT and OG
Luke Petitgout
Rich Seubert
David Diehl
Jason Whittle
Bob Whitfield
Rich Seubert
Chris Snee
Kareem McKenzie
Kevin Boothe
Adam Koets
Will Beatty
Shawn Andrews
Mitch Petrus
It did not matter who we put in there . The O-line was functional.
We Have changed:
The GM
4 HCs
5 OCs
5 O-line coaches
We have changed OGs and OTs numerous times
No matter what is done . The results have been exacting.
What other conclusion can be drawn?
When all other possibilities have been dismissed
The only thing left is the truth.
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Post by Kruunch on Sept 16, 2020 8:33:26 GMT -5
Since O'hara: Jim Cordle a true center (was fair) Dallas Reynolds Converted OT (fail) Winston Richburg a true center ( was stupid) Brett Jones Nothing more than a Backup 3 games as a starter in Minnesota . Benched and waved. Spencer Pulley a converted guard ( a backup as a starter. ) Jon Halapio a converted guard. These are just the guys that started. Not including the "lets see what this guy can do" There is one commonality O'hara = good O-lines and it did no matter who played OT and OG Luke Petitgout Rich Seubert David Diehl Jason Whittle Bob Whitfield Rich Seubert Chris Snee Kareem McKenzie Kevin Boothe Adam Koets Will Beatty Shawn Andrews Mitch Petrus It did not matter who we put in there . The O-line was functional. We Have changed: The GM 4 HCs 5 OCs 5 O-line coaches We have changed OGs and OTs numerous times No matter what is done . The results have been exacting. What other conclusion can be drawn? When all other possibilities have been dismissed The only thing left is the truth. You forgot David Baas. Who I believe was a converted guard. And he earned his whole salary in the super bowl where he shut Vince Wilfork down. |
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Post by JoeyCush on Sept 16, 2020 8:37:35 GMT -5
I believe the only starting rookie Center is Lloyd Cushenberry for Denver. Cesar Ruiz, taken in the first, is playing Guard for NO.
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southerner
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Bearer of Bad News
Posts: 4,186
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Post by southerner on Sept 16, 2020 8:40:34 GMT -5
Well, it is clear now the Giants will have to find a REAL center, either through a trade, free agency or the 2021 draft.
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 8:40:44 GMT -5
Since O'hara: Jim Cordle a true center (was fair) Dallas Reynolds Converted OT (fail) Winston Richburg a true center ( was stupid) Brett Jones Nothing more than a Backup 3 games as a starter in Minnesota . Benched and waved. Spencer Pulley a converted guard ( a backup as a starter. ) Jon Halapio a converted guard. These are just the guys that started. Not including the "lets see what this guy can do" There is one commonality O'hara = good O-lines and it did no matter who played OT and OG Luke Petitgout Rich Seubert David Diehl Jason Whittle Bob Whitfield Rich Seubert Chris Snee Kareem McKenzie Kevin Boothe Adam Koets Will Beatty Shawn Andrews Mitch Petrus It did not matter who we put in there . The O-line was functional. We Have changed: The GM 4 HCs 5 OCs 5 O-line coaches We have changed OGs and OTs numerous times No matter what is done . The results have been exacting. What other conclusion can be drawn? When all other possibilities have been dismissed The only thing left is the truth. You forgot David Baas. Who I believe was a converted guard. And he earned his whole salary in the super bowl where he shut Vince Wilfork down. I agree but is my conclusion wrong? If it is. I am open to your or anyone's take on this. We have done everything else but put a center emplace that can do the job. And it has not matter what OG OT draftee or FA we bring in. They look like they never played in their life. It is not them . It is because as unit is not on the same page . That is the Centers responsibility to make that happen. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 16, 2020 8:52:08 GMT -5
Since O'hara: Jim Cordle a true center (was fair) Dallas Reynolds Converted OT (fail) Winston Richburg a true center ( was stupid) Brett Jones Nothing more than a Backup 3 games as a starter in Minnesota . Benched and waved. Spencer Pulley a converted guard ( a backup as a starter. ) Jon Halapio a converted guard. These are just the guys that started. Not including the "lets see what this guy can do" There is one commonality O'hara = good O-lines and it did no matter who played OT and OG Luke Petitgout Rich Seubert David Diehl Jason Whittle Bob Whitfield Rich Seubert Chris Snee Kareem McKenzie Kevin Boothe Adam Koets Will Beatty Shawn Andrews Mitch Petrus It did not matter who we put in there . The O-line was functional. We Have changed: The GM 4 HCs 5 OCs 5 O-line coaches We have changed OGs and OTs numerous times No matter what is done . The results have been exacting. What other conclusion can be drawn? When all other possibilities have been dismissed The only thing left is the truth. Before we get crazy about this version of the OL keep in mind Diehl Ohara and that group were called the worst OL in the league I read about it years ago and Deahl talked about it a few days ago on one of the Giants shows. At that point they took on themselves to change that. hanging out inside the facility and outside of it, get togethers with family's Barbecues they became a unit. This unit now has a chance to do good things they need time and they need to pull together it is way to early to kill these guys lets see how they grow. Thomas passed his first test with no NFL experience not even preseason Peart is waiting in the wings hopefully Gates is the answer I like his attitude but he might take a few games to get used to all the nuances of his new position. |
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Post by McCherry on Sept 16, 2020 8:52:37 GMT -5
You forgot David Baas. Who I believe was a converted guard. And he earned his whole salary in the super bowl where he shut Vince Wilfork down. I agree but is my conclusion wrong. If it is. I am open to your or anyone's take on this. We have done everything else but put a center emplace that can do the job. And it has not matter what OG OT draftee or FA we bring in. They look like they never played in their life. It is not them . It is because as unit is not on the same page . That is the Centers responsibility to make that happen. It's not the Centers responsibility for the way the entire veteran OL performs in the first game of the season, with 3 new players in the group. The reality is the group got noticeably better as the game went along. The offense had some great drives in the second half. This should be encouraging. A couple plays by the goal line and a missed fumble opportunity essentially decided the outcome, regardless of the way the line played overall. |
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Post by imgrate on Sept 16, 2020 8:58:26 GMT -5
You forgot David Baas. Who I believe was a converted guard. And he earned his whole salary in the super bowl where he shut Vince Wilfork down. I agree but is my conclusion wrong? If it is. I am open to your or anyone's take on this. We have done everything else but put a center emplace that can do the job. And it has not matter what OG OT draftee or FA we bring in. They look like they never played in their life. It is not them . It is because as unit is not on the same page . That is the Centers responsibility to make that happen. I think you're assuming that I think that getting a pure center is not right. I'm not saying that. What I'm trying to find out is if there was a center available this offseason that is better than what we have. I dont follow the entire nfl well enough to know how other centers are playing, but i know there's people on this forum that do. I wanted to sign connor mcgovern in the offseason, but don't know how he's looking so far. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 16, 2020 9:02:16 GMT -5
You forgot David Baas. Who I believe was a converted guard. And he earned his whole salary in the super bowl where he shut Vince Wilfork down. I agree but is my conclusion wrong? If it is. I am open to your or anyone's take on this. We have done everything else but put a center emplace that can do the job. And it has not matter what OG OT draftee or FA we bring in. They look like they never played in their life. It is not them . It is because as unit is not on the same page . That is the Centers responsibility to make that happen. I agree but this position group has been a revolving door for the last 7-8 years at a spot where continuity matters most. I think they had a chance to have a little smoother transition if Solder was around to man RT and bring his experience with him or stay at left and let Thomas cut his teeth over on the right. I like it better as it is tho it might hurt for a while like when you stub your toe, if these guys start to gell and Peart gets in to some game action the pain will be temporary you will forget about that toe and this long @#$% up OL nightmare might be over. |
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 9:07:30 GMT -5
Since O'hara: Jim Cordle a true center (was fair) Dallas Reynolds Converted OT (fail) Winston Richburg a true center ( was stupid) Brett Jones Nothing more than a Backup 3 games as a starter in Minnesota . Benched and waved. Spencer Pulley a converted guard ( a backup as a starter. ) Jon Halapio a converted guard. These are just the guys that started. Not including the "lets see what this guy can do" There is one commonality O'hara = good O-lines and it did no matter who played OT and OG Luke Petitgout Rich Seubert David Diehl Jason Whittle Bob Whitfield Rich Seubert Chris Snee Kareem McKenzie Kevin Boothe Adam Koets Will Beatty Shawn Andrews Mitch Petrus It did not matter who we put in there . The O-line was functional. We Have changed: The GM 4 HCs 5 OCs 5 O-line coaches We have changed OGs and OTs numerous times No matter what is done . The results have been exacting. What other conclusion can be drawn? When all other possibilities have been dismissed The only thing left is the truth. Before we get crazy about this version of the OL keep in mind Diehl Ohara and that group were called the worst OL in the league I read about it years ago and Deahl talked about it a few days ago on one of the Giants shows. At that point they took on themselves to change that. hanging out inside the facility and outside of it, get togethers with family's Barbecues they became a unit. This unit now has a chance to do good things they need time and they need to pull together it is way to early to kill these guys lets see how they grow. Thomas passed his first test with no NFL experience not even preseason Peart is waiting in the wings hopefully Gates is the answer I like his attitude but he might take a few games to get used to all the nuances of his new position. So why haven't we been able to fix this in 7 years? We have changed everything else more than a few times. and still in the bottom 3rd of the league. Jones dropped back 41 times and was pressured 26 of those times. That is 63% of his drop backs. That sucks. And that isn't the running game. Every opening day we make the same excuses. Their rusty, They need to barbecue together. Other teams get it together on opening day with new O-line configurations . why is that? Because they have a Pouncey like center. This year that cloud excuses and I hope it gets better vail has been removed from my eyes. IMO this ain't getting better until we get a bonified I can call the protections and make adjustments at the line Center. BBD there is no other conclusion I can draw anymore. I have ran out of excuses . We need a center. That is where the evidence is pointing. |
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 9:09:14 GMT -5
I agree but is my conclusion wrong? If it is. I am open to your or anyone's take on this. We have done everything else but put a center emplace that can do the job. And it has not matter what OG OT draftee or FA we bring in. They look like they never played in their life. It is not them . It is because as unit is not on the same page . That is the Centers responsibility to make that happen. I think you're assuming that I think that getting a pure center is not right. I'm not saying that. What I'm trying to find out is if there was a center available this offseason that is better than what we have. I dont follow the entire nfl well enough to know how other centers are playing, but i know there's people on this forum that do. I wanted to sign connor mcgovern in the offseason, but don't know how he's looking so far. We should have drafted one. and he is an idiot , you draft another one or pay a good one in FA. Until we find one. |
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Post by imgrate on Sept 16, 2020 9:19:45 GMT -5
I think you're assuming that I think that getting a pure center is not right. I'm not saying that. What I'm trying to find out is if there was a center available this offseason that is better than what we have. I dont follow the entire nfl well enough to know how other centers are playing, but i know there's people on this forum that do. I wanted to sign connor mcgovern in the offseason, but don't know how he's looking so far. We should have drafted one. and he is an idiot , you draft another one or pay a good one in FA. Until we find one. In hindsight which guy would you have grabbed in this past draft? Or signed |
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 9:30:45 GMT -5
We should have drafted one. and he is an idiot , you draft another one or pay a good one in FA. Until we find one. In hindsight which guy would you have grabbed in this past draft? Or signed I wanted Pouncey this year as a FA but Pittsburgh payed him. 2018 I wanted Billy Price went # 20 in the draft. We could have moved up . I wanted him over Hernandez. 2019 I wanted Erik McCoy he went pick 48 . We move up to take Baker. 2020 I wanted Lloyd Cushenberry he went pick 83 ( starting for Denver) We took Matt Peart with 99 |
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Post by fifthavephil on Sept 16, 2020 9:42:53 GMT -5
This is growing pains. Hopefully, they will improve.
IF, Giants can go 2-2 , in the first four games.
It will be a very good start.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Sept 16, 2020 9:56:50 GMT -5
Dallas drafted Badiasz in the 4th round.
He was one many were clamoring for. (including myself)
Take the flyer on him.
Hennessy to the Falcons in the 3rd, Cushenberry in the 3rd to Den, Harris to the Browns in the 6th.
Not that they would be dynamic right away, but we needed to try at least IMO.
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Post by McCherry on Sept 16, 2020 10:03:37 GMT -5
Dallas drafted Badiasz in the 4th round. He was one many were clamoring for. (including myself) Take the flyer on him. Hennessy to the Falcons in the 3rd, Cushenberry in the 3rd to Den, Harris to the Browns in the 6th. Not that they would be dynamic right away, but we needed to try at least IMO. Lots of fans here wanted Hennessy. Now he's a backup Guard with Atlanta. |
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southerner
Starter
Bearer of Bad News
Posts: 4,186
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Post by southerner on Sept 16, 2020 10:04:33 GMT -5
I agree but is my conclusion wrong. If it is. I am open to your or anyone's take on this. We have done everything else but put a center emplace that can do the job. And it has not matter what OG OT draftee or FA we bring in. They look like they never played in their life. It is not them . It is because as unit is not on the same page . That is the Centers responsibility to make that happen. It's not the Centers responsibility for the way the entire veteran OL performs in the first game of the season, with 3 new players in the group. The reality is the group got noticeably better as the game went along. The offense had some great drives in the second half. This should be encouraging. A couple plays by the goal line and a missed fumble opportunity essentially decided the outcome, regardless of the way the line played overall. True, but it was the center and right tackle that completely failed and caused the collapse of the rushing attack and the continual onslaught on Daniel Jones. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 16, 2020 10:09:23 GMT -5
Before we get crazy about this version of the OL keep in mind Diehl Ohara and that group were called the worst OL in the league I read about it years ago and Deahl talked about it a few days ago on one of the Giants shows. At that point they took on themselves to change that. hanging out inside the facility and outside of it, get togethers with family's Barbecues they became a unit. This unit now has a chance to do good things they need time and they need to pull together it is way to early to kill these guys lets see how they grow. Thomas passed his first test with no NFL experience not even preseason Peart is waiting in the wings hopefully Gates is the answer I like his attitude but he might take a few games to get used to all the nuances of his new position. So why haven't we been able to fix this in 7 years? We have changed everything else more than a few times. and still in the bottom 3rd of the league. Jones dropped back 41 times and was pressured 26 of those times. That is 63% of his drop backs. That sucks. And that isn't the running game. Every opening day we make the same excuses. Their rusty, They need to barbecue together. Other teams get it together on opening day with new O-line configurations . why is that? Because they have a Pouncey like center. This year that cloud excuses and I hope it gets better vail has been removed from my eyes. IMO this ain't getting better until we get a bonified I can call the protections and make adjustments at the line Center. BBD there is no other conclusion I can draw anymore. I have ran out of excuses . We need a center. That is where the evidence is pointing. I'm not saying it wouldn't help. But even when we drafted a highly touted one Richberg it didn't work out. For what ever reason Judge and DG seem to think Gates has what it takes to be a really good one we will see. I think once they started firing OL coaches. Like Flarety because he couldn't turn piss to wine with Flowers. then Shurmur comes in and brings Hunter in replacing pretty good coach in Solari. Sometimes you just have draft over your mistakes to. I really believe it was a combo of things wrong players to many coaching changes in a position that demands stability there was none. If they ad a center great but what I would like to see is Columbo and Garret stay a while and keep this group together. Thomas looked good considering the off season. I think Lemeux and Peart are waiting in the wings hope we have found our line and the men to lead them. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 16, 2020 10:14:54 GMT -5
It's not the Centers responsibility for the way the entire veteran OL performs in the first game of the season, with 3 new players in the group. The reality is the group got noticeably better as the game went along. The offense had some great drives in the second half. This should be encouraging. A couple plays by the goal line and a missed fumble opportunity essentially decided the outcome, regardless of the way the line played overall. True, but it was the center and right tackle that completely failed and caused the collapse of the rushing attack and the continual onslaught on Daniel Jones. This was gonna be a tough challenge no matter what. A Rookie at LT Gates is like a Rookie at center and a new guy at RT this was a very tall order with 0 preseason and a few weeks of camp I think it will get better and I think the coaches knew this was gonna be tough as Judge said these first 4 games are like these young guys preseason except it counts. |
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Post by imgrate on Sept 16, 2020 10:17:01 GMT -5
Dallas drafted Badiasz in the 4th round. He was one many were clamoring for. (including myself) Take the flyer on him. Hennessy to the Falcons in the 3rd, Cushenberry in the 3rd to Den, Harris to the Browns in the 6th. Not that they would be dynamic right away, but we needed to try at least IMO. Any of those guys start and look decent? I mean, it's one week so not much to go off of. Even for Gates, one game does not make a career. Basically, let's assume Gates is always going to be a bad center. OK, so who should we have picked up this past offseason that is better than Gates? If there's nobody better that was available this past offseason, then there's really no point in complaining about Gates. |
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Post by McCherry on Sept 16, 2020 10:21:03 GMT -5
Dallas drafted Badiasz in the 4th round. He was one many were clamoring for. (including myself) Take the flyer on him. Hennessy to the Falcons in the 3rd, Cushenberry in the 3rd to Den, Harris to the Browns in the 6th. Not that they would be dynamic right away, but we needed to try at least IMO. Any of those guys start and look decent? I mean, it's one week so not much to go off of. Even for Gates, one game does not make a career. Basically, let's assume Gates is always going to be a bad center. OK, so who should we have picked up this past offseason that is better than Gates? If there's nobody better that was available this past offseason, then there's really no point in complaining about Gates. Cushenberry was the only one who started at Center and graded out at 65. So, no. |
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Post by TheAnalyst on Sept 16, 2020 10:26:20 GMT -5
Dallas drafted Badiasz in the 4th round. He was one many were clamoring for. (including myself) Take the flyer on him. Hennessy to the Falcons in the 3rd, Cushenberry in the 3rd to Den, Harris to the Browns in the 6th. Not that they would be dynamic right away, but we needed to try at least IMO. Any of those guys start and look decent? I mean, it's one week so not much to go off of. Even for Gates, one game does not make a career. Basically, let's assume Gates is always going to be a bad center. OK, so who should we have picked up this past offseason that is better than Gates? If there's nobody better that was available this past offseason, then there's really no point in complaining about Gates. Even if we drafted a C, I still would say this is a 5-6 win team. Drafting a C is more about the future, building the OL with Thomas and Peart. A true C. Cant tell how good these rookies are yet. They went with Gates. Maybe he turns it around. |
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Post by imgrate on Sept 16, 2020 10:32:28 GMT -5
Any of those guys start and look decent? I mean, it's one week so not much to go off of. Even for Gates, one game does not make a career. Basically, let's assume Gates is always going to be a bad center. OK, so who should we have picked up this past offseason that is better than Gates? If there's nobody better that was available this past offseason, then there's really no point in complaining about Gates. Even if we drafted a C, I still would say this is a 5-6 win team. Drafting a C is more about the future, building the OL with Thomas and Peart. A true C. Cant tell how good these rookies are yet. They went with Gates. Maybe he turns it around. Yea there's the future development aspect for sure. We did that with RT with Peart, and got our LT in 1st round. That leaves us with a bunch of luck picks 4th rd and later or bypassing McKinney |
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Post by imgrate on Sept 16, 2020 10:33:09 GMT -5
Any of those guys start and look decent? I mean, it's one week so not much to go off of. Even for Gates, one game does not make a career. Basically, let's assume Gates is always going to be a bad center. OK, so who should we have picked up this past offseason that is better than Gates? If there's nobody better that was available this past offseason, then there's really no point in complaining about Gates. Cushenberry was the only one who started at Center and graded out at 65. So, no. How'd mcgovern do |
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 10:36:05 GMT -5
So why haven't we been able to fix this in 7 years? We have changed everything else more than a few times. and still in the bottom 3rd of the league. Jones dropped back 41 times and was pressured 26 of those times. That is 63% of his drop backs. That sucks. And that isn't the running game. Every opening day we make the same excuses. Their rusty, They need to barbecue together. Other teams get it together on opening day with new O-line configurations . why is that? Because they have a Pouncey like center. This year that cloud excuses and I hope it gets better vail has been removed from my eyes. IMO this ain't getting better until we get a bonified I can call the protections and make adjustments at the line Center. BBD there is no other conclusion I can draw anymore. I have ran out of excuses . We need a center. That is where the evidence is pointing. I'm not saying it wouldn't help. But even when we drafted a highly touted one Richberg it didn't work out. For what ever reason Judge and DG seem to think Gates has what it takes to be a really good one we will see. I think once they started firing OL coaches. Like Flarety because he couldn't turn piss to wine with Flowers. then Shurmur comes in and brings Hunter in replacing pretty good coach in Solari. Sometimes you just have draft over your mistakes to. I really believe it was a combo of things wrong players to many coaching changes in a position that demands stability there was none. If they ad a center great but what I would like to see is Columbo and Garret stay a while and keep this group together. Thomas looked good considering the off season. I think Lemeux and Peart are waiting in the wings hope we have found our line and the men to lead them. Believe me . I want to be wrong. I called what Bettcher was at the end of the 18 season "carrot on a stick DC. Always chasing those 11 that fit what he wanted to do. I do not think I am wrong on this either. |
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 10:37:36 GMT -5
Dallas drafted Badiasz in the 4th round. He was one many were clamoring for. (including myself) Take the flyer on him. Hennessy to the Falcons in the 3rd, Cushenberry in the 3rd to Den, Harris to the Browns in the 6th. Not that they would be dynamic right away, but we needed to try at least IMO. Lots of fans here wanted Hennessy. Now he's a backup Guard with Atlanta. The difference seems to be our backup guards become our starting center. " big problem" |
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Post by PennState1 on Sept 16, 2020 10:47:43 GMT -5
You forgot David Baas. Who I believe was a converted guard. And he earned his whole salary in the super bowl where he shut Vince Wilfork down. I agree but is my conclusion wrong? If it is. I am open to your or anyone's take on this. We have done everything else but put a center emplace that can do the job. And it has not matter what OG OT draftee or FA we bring in. They look like they never played in their life. It is not them . It is because as unit is not on the same page . That is the Centers responsibility to make that happen. You have that exactly right! The Center is critical to the cohesiveness of an oline. |
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Post by jb456 on Sept 16, 2020 10:50:48 GMT -5
This is growing pains. Hopefully, they will improve. IF, Giants can go 2-2 , in the first four games. It will be a very good start. Unfortunately, you have to actually win a game to get to 2-2.... This is a tall task for the Giants in recent years... |
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