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Post by Sarcasman on Sept 16, 2020 9:52:14 GMT -5
Elliot helps the Cowboys a ton but they have a team I would take the trade to but that is hind sight if we drafted Darnold or Mayfield this board would be going nuts. It's a team game when you get chance to draft a skill guy whom could be the best at his position for years to come you take it. Barkely as far as TDs and Yards has out performed some of the top WRs in game he and Jones need help and Slayton looks like he can be that. I would take the trade but I'm not gonna complain about drafting an elite talent. I wanna see what this year brings with Garret and this OL. Were we winning with OBJ no because you need to play defense and run the ball if this OL grows up and is solid this team is gonna win. I get they help their teams. Especially Mccaffrey but it’s not a one player game other then QB Last years record with Elite Running Backs Mccaffrey, Panthers. 5 Wins Elliot, Dallas. 8 wins Barkley 4 wins Again I don’t know what we could have gotten for that pick so it’s just talk of what could have beens It’s not a one player game period. I agree with you that - if possible - trading that pick for multiple picks to improve the roster would have likely had a meaningful effect on the team. Thats it. There were four extremely highly touted QBs in that draft and 5 taken in the first round. None would have this team materially better than it is today.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 9:52:48 GMT -5
Yup. Absolutely. The thing is after this season do we give him a mega contract which I am sure he will want TBH...I wouldnt. I agree with you and then someone has to admit it wasn’t the best decision to take him and number 2
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 9:53:38 GMT -5
Who would you have picked? Anything not rated as the #2 on your board is in essence a self imposed moving down in the draft. Well speaking for myself I can say that I'm not an NFL GM. I only play one on the internet. Having said that to me it's really a matter of philosophy. Do you pick a RB with the 2nd pick in the draft. By definition, the team is bad. I think we've seen in today's NFL that it's a poor idea without a decent O line. Plus we've seen so many great RB's who come from later rounds. There are certain positions that have to be focused on with a pick that high. QB, LT, Pass rusher, cover corner. Those are the most impactful positions on the field.
So who SHOULD they have picked? We don't have access to the scouting, so really none of us can say. I thought when we traded JPP, Bradley Chubb came into play. But we can certainly agree that over the first two+ seasons......Saquan isn't helping us win. As a matter of fact we won two games last year with him on the sidelines.
It's just the nature of today's NFL.
Drafting 101: You never self impose dropping yourself in the draft period.
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Post by GameTime on Sept 16, 2020 9:53:42 GMT -5
I agree with you and then someone has to admit it wasn’t the best decision to take him and number 2 Its OK...GMs screw up all the time and have to admit one way or another
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Post by Blue Hulk on Sept 16, 2020 9:54:41 GMT -5
But Saquon is a generational talent.
.5 yards per game
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theproblem
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Formerly BJacobs aka The Problem
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Post by theproblem on Sept 16, 2020 9:54:49 GMT -5
So one thing that I think that you're not considering is what value Saquon brings Daniel Jones. Yes, Saquon wasn't able to do anything on the ground, but if you listen to what Tomlin said after the game, the whole focus of the defense was to stop Barkley, even if it meant putting exposing their secondary. Now think about that. Think about what that means for a young QB still developing. He's working with an advantage because the defense is so hell bent on not letting Barkley beat them. The TD to Slayton is a result of that. What other player in that draft was as a sure shot of giving us that type of advantage? Think about it? I know a lot of you would say Q. Nelson, but his singular affect would have been to provide protection in one singular instance. Yes, he would have provided protection and run blocking ability, but opposing defenses wouldn't be going as far as to completely scheming their plan of attack around him. Barkley was as close to a sure thing in the first round then anyone else available that could provide such a huge benefit. I wouldn't change the pick because in the long run it's going to help DJ become better and once the blocking issues are sorted, opposing defenses are going to be screwed because if you gameplan to stop one, the other is going to pick you apart or run wild. Pick your poison, either way you're screwed. There is no question a good RB will help the QB in that way. The problem is, he isnt helping the W column. Drafting Nelson would have helped a young QB too. And a RB. Yeah, but like I said, opposing defenses aren't going to hang their secondary out to dry trying to stop Nelson and what other RB's still would have caused defenses to have to do that?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 9:55:16 GMT -5
Well it’s hard to see what offers were on the table. Trading the pick for more picks would have probably have been the best way to go. Especially with a rebuilding team Buffalo or Miami might have wanted to give us a nice package to move up. Dropping way back and grabbing Leighton Vander Esch while stacking some more 2nd and 3rd picks. I don’t know or could even know because I don’t know the offers. If you can not answer that fundament question. How can your logic on it was a mistake be sound? You do understand you have to take the best play on your board that is available at the time of the pick? To a degree but if you have a Mahomes on your team and when your draft turn pops up what if you have a QB as the best player rated. Do you take him with that logic.
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Post by McCherry on Sept 16, 2020 9:55:22 GMT -5
That's completely not true. What he said was that he wasn't to settle for the bad trade offers he had been receiving for the #2 pick. He said he listened to a few offers, and one was a very reasonable offer (I think it was Den to jump the Jets for Darnold), but he liked Barkley too much. And when the draft started and we were on the clock, he decided not to pursue any of it. He didnt want to take the phone calls because he had his mind set. Thats pretty much what he said. I think what he meant was that if there was a team that was going to trade for the pick, it would happened well before we went on the clock. This has been misinterpreted by fans as "I refuse to listen to any offer" but clearly there wasn't much interest or worthwhile offers for the #2 pick.
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Post by Roosevelt on Sept 16, 2020 9:56:53 GMT -5
I admittedly loved the Saquon Pick. Even at number 2. That being said and 3 years later it was a dumb move to not try and trade that pick for a Kings Randsom. Again I don’t know if any team wanted to move up to our #2 spot but Gettleman admitted he wasn’t even going to listen to any offers or pick up the phone. Going forward in life I would never pick a RB in the first round unless my team was stacked and it was a luxury pick. 3 Amazing Running Backs. Barkley, Elliot and Mccaffrey. No one questions their talent but they do not help their respective teams get wins. I would not re sign him or Engram.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 10:00:31 GMT -5
So one thing that I think that you're not considering is what value Saquon brings Daniel Jones. Yes, Saquon wasn't able to do anything on the ground, but if you listen to what Tomlin said after the game, the whole focus of the defense was to stop Barkley, even if it meant putting exposing their secondary. Now think about that. Think about what that means for a young QB still developing. He's working with an advantage because the defense is so hell bent on not letting Barkley beat them. The TD to Slayton is a result of that. What other player in that draft was as a sure shot of giving us that type of advantage? Think about it? I know a lot of you would say Q. Nelson, but his singular affect would have been to provide protection in one singular instance. Yes, he would have provided protection and run blocking ability, but opposing defenses wouldn't be going as far as to completely scheming their plan of attack around him. Barkley was as close to a sure thing in the first round then anyone else available that could provide such a huge benefit. I wouldn't change the pick because in the long run it's going to help DJ become better and once the blocking issues are sorted, opposing defenses are going to be screwed because if you gameplan to stop one, the other is going to pick you apart or run wild. Pick your poison, either way you're screwed. Barkley May be actually hurting DJ because his pass protection is so poor. Look I’ll use Henry as an example. Teams knew they had to stop him. They knew it was a run okay but still couldn’t. 15 rushes for 6 yards. .4 yards per carry even if the defense is completely dedicated to stopping you is not going to cut it. I know the majority of this goes on our O-Line but he has to accept some of the blame
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 10:01:48 GMT -5
but it is unknow what Elway was willing to offer. Absolutely. Def not concrete. Im just adding the pieces of everything. DG said that he had one legit offer on the table. My gut says it was Den, along with everything I read at the time. It would at the very least be the #5 in 2018 and 2019s #1 pick. I would think there would be some fluff too since they wanted a coveted QB. All my educated guessing though. But the fact is, there was 1 legit offer on the table. that is a fluff speculation. It also could have been #5 a 3rd round and next years #2. Would you have take that? I would not have.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 10:02:06 GMT -5
That said, hindsight, we should have traded back for Nelson. Our team would be in a much better situation had we done that. At the time I wanted to trade back too. But if not, I liked Chubb, Nelson, Rosen. (with Mayfield gone) The trenches and the QB. I liked Rosen over Darnold. I was a Darnold guy … not looking like a good call at this point Look players do well or awful depending on the scheme or coaching. No one does well on the Jets. Bell is not the same player as he was when he played for the Steelers. Either of Odell playing for the Browns. He isn’t that bad
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 10:03:23 GMT -5
Who would you have picked? Anything not rated as the #2 on your board is in essence a self imposed moving down in the draft. Well speaking for myself I can say that I'm not an NFL GM. I only play one on the internet. Having said that to me it's really a matter of philosophy. Do you pick a RB with the 2nd pick in the draft. By definition, the team is bad. I think we've seen in today's NFL that it's a poor idea without a decent O line. Plus we've seen so many great RB's who come from later rounds. There are certain positions that have to be focused on with a pick that high. QB, LT, Pass rusher, cover corner. Those are the most impactful positions on the field.
So who SHOULD they have picked? We don't have access to the scouting, so really none of us can say. I thought when we traded JPP, Bradley Chubb came into play. But we can certainly agree that over the first two+ seasons......Saquan isn't helping us win. As a matter of fact we won two games last year with him on the sidelines.
It's just the nature of today's NFL.
💯 % agree with this. QB, LT, Pass rusher, cover corner. Those are the most impactful positions on the field.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Sept 16, 2020 10:05:11 GMT -5
Absolutely. Def not concrete. Im just adding the pieces of everything. DG said that he had one legit offer on the table. My gut says it was Den, along with everything I read at the time. It would at the very least be the #5 in 2018 and 2019s #1 pick. I would think there would be some fluff too since they wanted a coveted QB. All my educated guessing though. But the fact is, there was 1 legit offer on the table. that is a fluff speculation. It also could have been #5 a 3rd round and next years #2. Would you have take that? I would not have. You think thats a reasonable offer? DG said he got one. A lot of bad trade offers, but he openly said one solid reasonable offer was made. The one you suggest was probably one of the bad ones.
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Post by DJones19 on Sept 16, 2020 10:06:17 GMT -5
RB at #2 isn't a good value but Barkley has made the team better - no 1000+ yard rusher in the 6+ years before we drafted him. I think we should have traded back. Chris Simms was laughed at by a few on here for liking Josh Allen the most. Mostly everyone had no idea Lamar Jackson would be this good. Myself included. His throwing has improved a lot since the combine.
Would be worse if we drafted a hyped-up QB like Rosen/Darnold. No idea why we keep trading up for players while we are rebuilding...Baker, Collins, etc. It hasn't worked for us and lowers the probability of a successful pick.
Glad Dave has some "computer guys" now because making picks based on gut feeling isn't the way to go.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 10:06:28 GMT -5
I get they help their teams. Especially Mccaffrey but it’s not a one player game other then QB Last years record with Elite Running Backs Mccaffrey, Panthers. 5 Wins Elliot, Dallas. 8 wins Barkley 4 wins Again I don’t know what we could have gotten for that pick so it’s just talk of what could have beens It’s not a one player game period. I agree with you that - if possible - trading that pick for multiple picks to improve the roster would have likely had a meaningful effect on the team. Thats it. There were four extremely highly touted QBs in that draft and 5 taken in the first round. None would have this team materially better than it is today. Not even Lamar Jackson?
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Post by GameTime on Sept 16, 2020 10:07:53 GMT -5
It’s not a one player game period. I agree with you that - if possible - trading that pick for multiple picks to improve the roster would have likely had a meaningful effect on the team. Thats it. There were four extremely highly touted QBs in that draft and 5 taken in the first round. None would have this team materially better than it is today. Not even Lamar Jackson? I was so not into him at all. Thats why I just post on boards......lol Many GMs didnt see him being the player he is
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Post by TheAnalyst on Sept 16, 2020 10:11:59 GMT -5
I was so not into him at all. Thats why I just post on boards......lol Many GMs didnt see him being the player he is Every GM didnt expect what he is. Ill give you one big reason he is playing so well. Drafted by Baltimore at 32. Every GM passed on him. He landed in a PERFECT spot. If he was drafted by the Jets or Cards or Bills, he isnt doing anything right now IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 10:15:43 GMT -5
But Saquon is a generational talent. .5 yards per game Don’t be so Generous. .4
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theproblem
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Formerly BJacobs aka The Problem
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Post by theproblem on Sept 16, 2020 10:17:01 GMT -5
So one thing that I think that you're not considering is what value Saquon brings Daniel Jones. Yes, Saquon wasn't able to do anything on the ground, but if you listen to what Tomlin said after the game, the whole focus of the defense was to stop Barkley, even if it meant putting exposing their secondary. Now think about that. Think about what that means for a young QB still developing. He's working with an advantage because the defense is so hell bent on not letting Barkley beat them. The TD to Slayton is a result of that. What other player in that draft was as a sure shot of giving us that type of advantage? Think about it? I know a lot of you would say Q. Nelson, but his singular affect would have been to provide protection in one singular instance. Yes, he would have provided protection and run blocking ability, but opposing defenses wouldn't be going as far as to completely scheming their plan of attack around him. Barkley was as close to a sure thing in the first round then anyone else available that could provide such a huge benefit. I wouldn't change the pick because in the long run it's going to help DJ become better and once the blocking issues are sorted, opposing defenses are going to be screwed because if you gameplan to stop one, the other is going to pick you apart or run wild. Pick your poison, either way you're screwed. Barkley May be actually hurting DJ because his pass protection is so poor. Look I’ll use Henry as an example. Teams knew they had to stop him. They knew it was a run okay but still couldn’t. 15 rushes for 6 yards. .4 yards per carry even if the defense is completely dedicated to stopping you is not going to cut it. I know the majority of this goes on our O-Line but he has to accept some of the blame The pass protection is something he definitely needs to improve on. I want to see if it gets better in next few games though. New coaches, new system, there still might be a lot more thinking instead of reacting and playing at full speed. We'll see though.
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Post by OrangeGiant on Sept 16, 2020 10:26:01 GMT -5
It's an old argument to be sure, but if Tiki Barber is right and he isn't an every down back, then it definitely was the wrong pick. I've made no secret that I didn't like the pick, to me it was like putting Pat Day (for you horse racing fans) on a mule and expecting him to win the Derby.
So many people ask who should we have picked, like there weren't any other options lol. I actually liked Bradley Chubb, or trade back for additional picks, maybe grab both McGlinchey and Nelson, shore up that OL a bit 2 years ago. Maybe even Roquan Smith...all positions of need. These were options we could have chosen.
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Post by JoeBigBlue on Sept 16, 2020 10:30:01 GMT -5
I think we all can assume Mara still wanted to ride with Eli Manning and taking Barkley gave him another weapon.
This team has been ****ed since TC was fired. Should've cleared house then and started all over with a new GM, new HC not McAdoofus), draft Manning's replacement, etc.
All that being said I am hopeful they will figure this out and give Saquon a real fighting chance to shine.
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 10:58:54 GMT -5
If you can not answer that fundament question. How can your logic on it was a mistake be sound? You do understand you have to take the best play on your board that is available at the time of the pick? To a degree but if you have a Mahomes on your team and when your draft turn pops up what if you have a QB as the best player rated. Do you take him with that logic. If you do not have a player ranked on you board and a QB is the top rank at the time of the pick. You trade out of it. That was not the case with Barkley( not a QB) I still see you logic as being flawed with your it was a mistake argument. The FO takes the player on their board that is designated with the pick they have. We had 2 choices in 18 1 and 2. 2 was most likely Baker. 3 would have been a self imposed lowering in the draft. The 2nd pick the FO will have 32 players designated (Players on the board between the 2 picks) . They take the highest rated player in that group at the time of the pick. You and others can say what you want on how you believe the draft should work . Every NFL team follows that model.
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Post by roundabout on Sept 16, 2020 11:10:27 GMT -5
I admittedly loved the Saquon Pick. Even at number 2. That being said and 3 years later it was a dumb move to not try and trade that pick for a Kings Randsom. Again I don’t know if any team wanted to move up to our #2 spot but Gettleman admitted he wasn’t even going to listen to any offers or pick up the phone. Going forward in life I would never pick a RB in the first round unless my team was stacked and it was a luxury pick. 3 Amazing Running Backs. Barkley, Elliot and Mccaffrey. No one questions their talent but they do not help their respective teams get wins. I would not re sign him or Engram. OR Peppers while were at it
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Post by Sarcasman on Sept 16, 2020 11:15:01 GMT -5
It’s not a one player game period. I agree with you that - if possible - trading that pick for multiple picks to improve the roster would have likely had a meaningful effect on the team. Thats it. There were four extremely highly touted QBs in that draft and 5 taken in the first round. None would have this team materially better than it is today. Not even Lamar Jackson? Materially better? No.
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Post by Kruunch on Sept 16, 2020 11:19:33 GMT -5
I admittedly loved the Saquon Pick. Even at number 2. That being said and 3 years later it was a dumb move to not try and trade that pick for a Kings Randsom. Again I don’t know if any team wanted to move up to our #2 spot but Gettleman admitted he wasn’t even going to listen to any offers or pick up the phone. Going forward in life I would never pick a RB in the first round unless my team was stacked and it was a luxury pick. 3 Amazing Running Backs. Barkley, Elliot and Mccaffrey. No one questions their talent but they do not help their respective teams get wins. That's completely not true. What he said was that he wasn't to settle for the bad trade offers he had been receiving for the #2 pick. Bullshit. It was reported that once Mayfield was drafted he refused to answer any calls on the 2nd pick. It was Barkley or bust.. Gettleman is an old school guy. He believes in running the ball and stopping the run. If a great back is available, he’s going to draft him. See Christian McCaffrey and Saquon Barkley. Both drafted by Gettleman.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 11:20:23 GMT -5
To a degree but if you have a Mahomes on your team and when your draft turn pops up what if you have a QB as the best player rated. Do you take him with that logic. If you do not have a player ranked on you board and a QB is the top rank at the time of the pick. You trade out of it. That was not the case with Barkley( not a QB) I still see you logic as being flawed with your it was a mistake argument. The FO takes the player on their board that is designated with the pick they have. We had 2 choices in 18 1 and 2. 2 was most likely Baker. 3 would have been a self imposed lowering in the draft. The 2nd pick the FO will have 32 players designated (Players on the board between the 2 picks) . They take the highest rated player in that group at the time of the pick. You and others can say what you want on how you believe the draft should work . Every NFL team follows that model. We had so many positions of need that my choice would have been to trade out
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Post by giants8493 on Sept 16, 2020 11:21:16 GMT -5
I'm probably in the minority on this but I still don't have a problem with Barkley at number 2. I understand the whole running backs are replaceable thing but Barkley is a player that commands the entire attention of the opposing defense and still is a threat to score whenever he has the ball. Wither that player lines up as a running back or wide receiver doesn't matter to me. He is a game changer.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 11:22:13 GMT -5
That's completely not true. What he said was that he wasn't to settle for the bad trade offers he had been receiving for the #2 pick. Bullshit. It was reported that once Mayfield was drafted he refused to answer any calls on the 2nd pick. It was Barkley or bust.. Gettleman is an old school guy. He believes in running the ball and stopping the run. If a great back is available, he’s going to draft him. See Christian McCaffrey and Saquon Barkley. Both drafted by Gettleman. And although great, neither are producing wins for their teams
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Post by TEM on Sept 16, 2020 11:32:34 GMT -5
If you do not have a player ranked on you board and a QB is the top rank at the time of the pick. You trade out of it. That was not the case with Barkley( not a QB) I still see you logic as being flawed with your it was a mistake argument. The FO takes the player on their board that is designated with the pick they have. We had 2 choices in 18 1 and 2. 2 was most likely Baker. 3 would have been a self imposed lowering in the draft. The 2nd pick the FO will have 32 players designated (Players on the board between the 2 picks) . They take the highest rated player in that group at the time of the pick. You and others can say what you want on how you believe the draft should work . Every NFL team follows that model. We had so many positions of need that my choice would have been to trade out Again to who?
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