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Post by thetruth on Sept 17, 2020 12:48:27 GMT -5
Fair, but using him as a blocker isn't exactly setting him up for success, that was never his skill set so why are we rattled when he doesn't execute this effectively? Also, leaving him to block TJ Watt 1v1 in pass pro is not ideal. Thats called getting out coached schematically as much as we'd rather not admit it. You want to see real results? put him consistently in positions to succeed based on his skill-set. If he fails? then we know He deserves all the criticism for his pass catching woes in week 1. Lets see how this season progresses. No, I meant that I only judge actual results, not theoretical ones. I wasn’t scoring the game but I doubt Engram was put alone on Watt very often. If Garrett continues to make that mistake, I’d be concerned about the coaching. Both Garrett’s inability to recognize issues and Judge’s inability to manage his OC. But I’m OK with giving the coaches some time to figure some of this out. Having a CB covering a TE is not theoretical. When you consider an allocation of resources its very material, DC's are game-planning for this - its very material. I get what you're saying, and im with you. He needs to do more in the receiving game. However, his impact to scheme is critical I counted Engram twice blocking TJ Watt in pass pro, one of which led to Jones fumbling it into the end zone in the first quarter (recovered by a Giants OL). Ill have to go back and confirm how many times he tried to block him in the run game but it was more than would be necessary. You cant put ANY TE on Watt and hope for success. However, like you said. Both the coaching staff and Engram need more of a sample size this year to determine best course of action
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Post by Jomo on Sept 17, 2020 12:51:50 GMT -5
I agree that this is not a knee jerk.
He has mostly missed the expectations of a 1st round pick. He remains a stellar athlete and an average TE all in. His weak blocking skills probably make him below average with an OL that often needs help.
We should accept what he is and if possible, move him out in a trade to a playoff ambitious team experienceing the loss of a TE.
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Post by McCherry on Sept 17, 2020 13:01:32 GMT -5
I agree that this is not a knee jerk. He has mostly missed the expectations of a 1st round pick. He remains a stellar athlete and an average TE all in. His weak blocking skills probably make him below average with an OL that often needs help. We should accept what he is and if possible, move him out in a trade to a playoff ambitious team experienceing the loss of a TE. You're talking about trading him after one game... 99% of what's been posted on this forum the last 3 days has been knee-jerk.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 13:09:33 GMT -5
I agree that this is not a knee jerk. He has mostly missed the expectations of a 1st round pick. He remains a stellar athlete and an average TE all in. His weak blocking skills probably make him below average with an OL that often needs help. We should accept what he is and if possible, move him out in a trade to a playoff ambitious team experienceing the loss of a TE. You're talking about trading him after one game... 99% of what's been posted on this forum the last 3 days has been knee-jerk. It’s not 1 game. It’s 4 seasons and 1 week
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 17, 2020 13:21:32 GMT -5
Look this isn’t a knee Jerk Reaction after week 1. He hasn’t been the player he should be as a first round pick. Often Injured, lots of drops, not a great blocker. I would wait until the draft deadline and then IF, and the is obviously a big IF he is still healthy, Try and trade him to a team that appears to be ready for a playoff run. What would we get for him though? Maybe a 3rd. Probably a 4th. Is it worth it to take what we can get rather then let him walk into Free Agency at the end of the season and get nothing. At the end of the day this is another first round pick that probably won’t make it to his second contract here. Not being picked by DG really works against him as well If he starts lighting it up like he did last year early he will be here for at least this season unless they get a deal they can't refuse.
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Post by thetruth on Sept 17, 2020 13:26:02 GMT -5
Look this isn’t a knee Jerk Reaction after week 1. He hasn’t been the player he should be as a first round pick. Often Injured, lots of drops, not a great blocker. I would wait until the draft deadline and then IF, and the is obviously a big IF he is still healthy, Try and trade him to a team that appears to be ready for a playoff run. What would we get for him though? Maybe a 3rd. Probably a 4th. Is it worth it to take what we can get rather then let him walk into Free Agency at the end of the season and get nothing. At the end of the day this is another first round pick that probably won’t make it to his second contract here. Not being picked by DG really works against him as well If he starts lighting it up like he did last year early he will be here for at least this season unless they get a deal they can't refuse.I doubt they get one. Unless another GM 'gettlemens' some draft picks over. It doesn't make sense with Engram's pending FA in a couple of years. Engram is on a rookie deal ~$2.5M a year. Why are we looking at trading him again? we were paying Ellison double this without a ton of complaints. Not sure I understand this one. Unless folks think that in 2020, blocking is more important than receiving for a TE which I would disagree with.
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Post by GameTime on Sept 17, 2020 13:30:05 GMT -5
First pass next game vs the Bears goes to Engram to get him back on the horse. 8 yard pass that he takes for 15....
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Post by roundabout on Sept 17, 2020 13:54:27 GMT -5
You're talking about trading him after one game... 99% of what's been posted on this forum the last 3 days has been knee-jerk. It’s not 1 game. It’s 4 seasons and 1 week 3 seasons and 1 week
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Post by NAVY2323(ret) on Sept 17, 2020 14:08:28 GMT -5
My biggest problem is that he is right there with Saqoun with blocking prowess. Not exactly ideal for a TE.
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Post by vbgiantsfan on Sept 17, 2020 14:14:06 GMT -5
Kaden Smith gets open, makes tough catches, and can block. He is overall more valuable and should start over Engram.
We were all mesmerized by Engram's speed, but he really hasn't been that special or that much of a mismatch like we had hoped.
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Post by McCherry on Sept 17, 2020 14:18:38 GMT -5
Bottom line is Engram has not lived up to his draft status 99% because of his injuries. The guy can play when he is in the field. He doesn't suck, he's not terrible blah blah blah. He had a bad game......that is a fact. How many bad games has he had? Also he was not drafted to block. Not all TEs block. Some block and don't catch. He is giving it a go and its not working. Time to change his game plan on the offense. Also a TE that doesn't block isn't just another WR. Its still a whole other position. About 3 people seem to understand this. Daniel Jones made some terrible plays that might’ve even cost us the game. Should we trade him?
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Post by vbgiantsfan on Sept 17, 2020 14:33:09 GMT -5
Bottom line is Engram has not lived up to his draft status 99% because of his injuries. The guy can play when he is in the field. He doesn't suck, he's not terrible blah blah blah. He had a bad game......that is a fact. How many bad games has he had? Also he was not drafted to block. Not all TEs block. Some block and don't catch. He is giving it a go and its not working. Time to change his game plan on the offense. Also a TE that doesn't block isn't just another WR. Its still a whole other position. About 3 people seem to understand this. Daniel Jones made some terrible plays that might’ve even cost us the game. Should we trade him? Sure, but the utility of a TE is limited when they can't block. Engram would do much better as an H-back on the Cowboys than a TE with the Giants. But for what this team needs, given all of our other issues, he's not valuable.
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Post by McCherry on Sept 17, 2020 14:42:31 GMT -5
About 3 people seem to understand this. Daniel Jones made some terrible plays that might’ve even cost us the game. Should we trade him? Sure, but the utility of a TE is limited when they can't block. Engram would do much better as an H-back on the Cowboys than a TE with the Giants. But for what this team needs, given all of our other issues, he's not valuable. Again, 44 catches in 8 games... Not valuable.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 14:57:28 GMT -5
It’s not 1 game. It’s 4 seasons and 1 week 3 seasons and 1 week Haha. Got me
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Post by ocgiant on Sept 17, 2020 14:59:55 GMT -5
Engram needs to perform and stay healthy. If he does this all season, then the Giants have a decision to make on him.
If he fails in either he is gone.
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Post by snyder55 on Sept 17, 2020 15:22:20 GMT -5
are people saying that we should draft a player and then see if we have a position he can play, it looks like that's what we have done with Engram...
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Post by bluejayc on Sept 17, 2020 15:55:28 GMT -5
He played an absolute atrocious game.....I mean he LITERALLY could not do anything worse as a TE.....couldn't block, couldn't catch and penalties. Give him a chance (one game) to redeem himself.
Health and availability are just as important if not more so than potential production. You know who had great individual game stats here and there but was NEVER healthy? Jon Beason........Evan Engram is the Jon Beason of TE's.
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Post by southerner on Sept 17, 2020 16:43:44 GMT -5
I agree that this is not a knee jerk. He has mostly missed the expectations of a 1st round pick. He remains a stellar athlete and an average TE all in. His weak blocking skills probably make him below average with an OL that often needs help. We should accept what he is and if possible, move him out in a trade to a playoff ambitious team experienceing the loss of a TE. You're talking about trading him after one game... 99% of what's been posted on this forum the last 3 days has been knee-jerk. No, after 3 years of under achieving, getting injured and dropping passes.......with the occasional great game. Trade him, trade him today and start Kaden Smith and the Giant offense immediately improves.
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Post by Jomo on Sept 17, 2020 16:43:44 GMT -5
My biggest problem is that he is right there with Saqoun with blocking prowess. Not exactly ideal for a TE. Travis Beckum was supposed to revolutionize the TE position for us as well. He couldn't block and really didn't run fast enough to be split out. Call Engram a rich man's Travis Beckum. A trade is highly unlikely and what we'd get in his walk year won't make anyone happy. What we can control is who gets to play and how we evaluate the other guys this year. Preparing for life after EE is where our energy should be directed.
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Post by keyofgmen on Sept 17, 2020 17:36:29 GMT -5
No way Giants could get a 3rd or 4th for him.
I don't think they are using him to his strength. I gave up when I saw him put in a position early in the game that he had to block Watt one on one. Watt! What the hell are the coaches thinking? Of course he got blown up...
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Post by McCherry on Sept 17, 2020 17:51:43 GMT -5
My biggest problem is that he is right there with Saqoun with blocking prowess. Not exactly ideal for a TE. Travis Beckum was supposed to revolutionize the TE position for us as well. He couldn't block and really didn't run fast enough to be split out. Call Engram a rich man's Travis Beckum.A trade is highly unlikely and what we'd get in his walk year won't make anyone happy. What we can control is who gets to play and how we evaluate the other guys this year. Preparing for life after EE is where our energy should be directed. Travis Beckham after 4 years had 23 receptions and 3 TD's... Evan Engram after 3 seasons has 155 receptions and 12 TD's. Please try to lay off the crack pipe for 5 minutes.
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Post by DandyDon on Sept 17, 2020 18:59:20 GMT -5
Travis Beckum was supposed to revolutionize the TE position for us as well. He couldn't block and really didn't run fast enough to be split out. Call Engram a rich man's Travis Beckum.A trade is highly unlikely and what we'd get in his walk year won't make anyone happy. What we can control is who gets to play and how we evaluate the other guys this year. Preparing for life after EE is where our energy should be directed. Travis Beckham after 4 years had 23 receptions and 3 TD's... Evan Engram after 3 seasons has 155 receptions and 12 TD's. Please try to lay off the crack pipe for 5 minutes. He's a good WR when healthy. And he might be healthier if they played him more like a slot WR. If some still want to call a TE that cant block a TE, good on them. I would just hope the current staff understands what he is and aint.
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Post by McCherry on Sept 17, 2020 19:02:56 GMT -5
Travis Beckham after 4 years had 23 receptions and 3 TD's... Evan Engram after 3 seasons has 155 receptions and 12 TD's. Please try to lay off the crack pipe for 5 minutes. He's a good WR when healthy. And he might be healthier if they played him more like a slot WR. If some still want to call a TE that cant block a TE, good on them. I would just hope the current staff understands what he is and aint. Use him like Shurmur did. He may have sucked as a coach, but he got that right.
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Post by Jomo on Sept 17, 2020 19:04:10 GMT -5
Travis Beckham after 4 years had 23 receptions and 3 TD's... Evan Engram after 3 seasons has 155 receptions and 12 TD's. Please try to lay off the crack pipe for 5 minutes. He's a good WR when healthy. And he might be healthier if they played him more like a slot WR. If some still want to call a TE that cant block a TE, good on them. I would just hope the current staff understands what he is and aint. I suspect they do. The film does not lie.
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Post by vbgiantsfan on Sept 18, 2020 9:02:02 GMT -5
Travis Beckum was supposed to revolutionize the TE position for us as well. He couldn't block and really didn't run fast enough to be split out. Call Engram a rich man's Travis Beckum.A trade is highly unlikely and what we'd get in his walk year won't make anyone happy. What we can control is who gets to play and how we evaluate the other guys this year. Preparing for life after EE is where our energy should be directed. Travis Beckham after 4 years had 23 receptions and 3 TD's... Evan Engram after 3 seasons has 155 receptions and 12 TD's. Please try to lay off the crack pipe for 5 minutes. Beckum was an H-back. He wasn't a starter and wasn't given nearly the amount of time on the field as Engram. He started 4 games his entire career. Playing the career stats game, if we normalize them by games started: Beckum had 23 reception in 4 games started = 5.75 receptions per game started Engram has 155 receptions in 26 games started = 5.96 receptions per game started Beckum had 3 TDs in 5 games started = 0.75 TD per game started Engram has 12 TDs in 26 games started = 0.42 per game started That's a a rich man's Travis Beckum... Anyway, no one is arguing that Beckum was better than Engram. I just don't think quoting stats to compare the 2 gets to the heart of the argument of the value of Engram on this team. On a team with an O-line that can't block, a blocking TE that can also receive (Kaden Smith) is more valuable. We don't have the luxury of using an Engram to his potential as a WR since he can't offer the other things we need.
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Post by Jomo on Sept 18, 2020 9:22:53 GMT -5
Travis Beckham after 4 years had 23 receptions and 3 TD's... Evan Engram after 3 seasons has 155 receptions and 12 TD's. Please try to lay off the crack pipe for 5 minutes. Beckum was an H-back. He wasn't a starter and wasn't given nearly the amount of time on the field as Engram. He started 4 games his entire career. Playing the career stats game, if we normalize them by games started: Beckum had 23 reception in 4 games started = 5.75 receptions per game started Engram has 155 receptions in 26 games started = 5.96 receptions per game started Beckum had 3 TDs in 5 games started = 0.75 TD per game started Engram has 12 TDs in 26 games started = 0.42 per game started That's a a rich man's Travis Beckum... Anyway, no one is arguing that Beckum was better than Engram. I just don't think quoting stats to compare the 2 gets to the heart of the argument of the value of Engram on this team. On a team with an O-line that can't block, a blocking TE that can also receive (Kaden Smith) is more valuable. We don't have the luxury of using an Engram to his potential as a WR since he can't offer the other things we need. That's it right there! Maybe he would fetch something from a team that is in a position to utilize his skills to the max. Maybe a team like the Saints? Side note, wasn't Engram a very odd choice given all of our roster needs at that time? You don't change a bad team with a TE that can't block.
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Post by Roswell on Sept 18, 2020 9:55:58 GMT -5
I’m sure if he gets used properly and makes 6 catches on Sunday for 95 yards a lot of these hot takes will cool down.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Sept 18, 2020 10:29:54 GMT -5
I didn't vote cause it's too early for me to have a final decision. I would lean to signing him but he has to show me he can stay on the field and actually make big plays regularly. Why can't we use EE out wide especially in the green zone with his height. His speed in the slot along with his height could loosen things up. Put Smith on the LOS. EE is a mismatch for any LBer with EE's speed lets find a way to use it. You had 4 seasons and 1 week to evaluate him. That’s not too early Yea but for me this is a make it or break it season for him. As I had stated he needs to stay on the field and produce. His talent is the tease that saves his ass. If he doesn't become a top threat for us I don't see us making a long term deal. If you want to put a tag on him and let him prove his worth over this year and next that would make sense to me. But for me I want to see this year play out and see what he did. I would think he is still rated as a top 10 TE going into this season.
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Post by DandyDon on Sept 18, 2020 10:34:12 GMT -5
You had 4 seasons and 1 week to evaluate him. That’s not too early Yea but for me this is a make it or break it season for him. As I had stated he needs to stay on the field and produce. His talent is the tease that saves his ass. If he doesn't become a top threat for us I don't see us making a long term deal. If you want to put a tag on him and let him prove his worth over this year and next that would make sense to me.But for me I want to see this year play out and see what he did. I would think he is still rated as a top 10 TE going into this season. I believe they have already executed the 5th year option for him next year? www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/evan-engram-21764/
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Sept 18, 2020 10:43:50 GMT -5
Yea but for me this is a make it or break it season for him. As I had stated he needs to stay on the field and produce. His talent is the tease that saves his ass. If he doesn't become a top threat for us I don't see us making a long term deal. If you want to put a tag on him and let him prove his worth over this year and next that would make sense to me.But for me I want to see this year play out and see what he did. I would think he is still rated as a top 10 TE going into this season. I believe they have already executed the 5th year option for him next year? www.spotrac.com/nfl/new-york-giants/evan-engram-21764/Thank You Don, I hadn't realized that. Now that you said it I believe your correct.
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