Helmet
Special Teams
Posts: 494
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Post by Helmet on Oct 15, 2019 12:44:54 GMT -5
At 17-38 shurmur has the tenth worst winning percentage in nfl history among coaches with at least 50 games under his belt. Ouch
Yeah yeah the browns blah blah. The guy has a lot to prove and the Giants sure put a lot of trust in him with that 5- year contract. Year three has to be the deadline for achieving a winning record. They will have $60m in cap space heading into next season. No more excuses next year. Three years in the nfl is an eternity, but certainly sufficient to get your own guys performing in your system
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Post by Dogecoin on Oct 20, 2019 18:02:59 GMT -5
Ugh same crap today from opening day last year...didn't give clear instruction to return guy setting up last chance final drive. Plus of course some additional late game brain farts like running on 3rd and 20 when you're going for it on 4th down. And if you go for it on 4th down and long when you're down one score, why punt last week when down two scores on fourth and short? This guy clearly doesn't get it. Imo guys that don't to this extent and for this long never will.
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Post by Dogecoin on Nov 11, 2019 17:02:47 GMT -5
someone wake me when Shurmur's gone. unfortunately he was giving us signals early in his regime that he was way-in-over his head. you can assess coaches early on by the quality of their decisions and judgement. it was easy to see new coaches who started within a similar time frame were headed in the right direction (like Bills, for example) regardless of record. i seriously have no interest watching this team w/ this dead end coach. theres really no point commenting further week to week, not much more than a cut n paste exercise given the established pattern of poor coaching. most kids with a joystick would outperform this guy wiring in plays and adjustments to the team over the internet
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Post by giantsforce on Nov 11, 2019 19:32:02 GMT -5
A few questions? What is your criteria on what a good QB is? Can you explain what doesn't work about his system? If you are going to make these claims at least tell the board why. Why, it's easier just to say Shurmur sucks, Dave Gettlemen sucks , Eli sucks.............. Remember you're talking to the same guy who says RB's don't matter ,now he is sayin QB's can play any system . He knows all about coaching yet doesn't know Coach's will call screens , draws to try to slow down a pass rush . Well, obviously the way Shurmur used Barkley in the Jets game showed that RBs do not matter when they get 1 yard rushing the entire game! So, your explanation why Shurmur was running Barkley in to the wall up the gut was to slow down the pass rush? How did that work out? It is really sad trying to give as an example Pacells first year as a coach with Shurmur. Shurmur is not a first year HC and his record is 17-41. Let that sink a bit before you post nonsense trying to defend a perennial loser.
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Post by giantsforce on Nov 11, 2019 19:39:06 GMT -5
There is a long long list of excellent coordinators who were lousy head coaches. Wasn't my point , there is also a long list of Coach's who have not had great starts to their careers and become pretty good HC's. Please, name one coach who started 17-41 in his career and then became successful. Hint: Shurmur ain't him!
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Post by Dogecoin on Nov 11, 2019 20:10:50 GMT -5
Please, name one coach who started 17-41 in his career and then became successful. Hint: Shurmur ain't him! Tom Landry........... First five years.............. 18-46-4 I'll take my chances on shurmur not having the success of landry and go quietly
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Post by giantsforce on Nov 12, 2019 14:55:50 GMT -5
I'll take my chances on shurmur not having the success of landry and go quietly He implied it has never happen ........just saying he is incorrect. Nice try but you had to go back quite a few decades to the 60's when things were much different. Here is what i implied very explicitly! "Hint: Shurmur ain't him" But keep defending Shurmur since it seems mediocrity is an acceptable standard for you!
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Post by Fletch842 on Nov 12, 2019 17:00:30 GMT -5
Please, name one coach who started 17-41 in his career and then became successful. Hint: Shurmur ain't him! Tom Landry........... First five years.............. 18-46-4 Doesn't he get a pass, as his team was an expansion team?
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Post by Morehead State on Nov 12, 2019 17:53:08 GMT -5
Doesn't he get a pass, as his team was an expansion team? ...........a pass from what ,the fool asked a question and I gave him the answer. Fair enough. He asked for it. And you are obviously right.
The fact of course is that the league is very different today. Back then expansion teams got nothing from the league. They had to languish for years before they could start winning. No salary cap. No free agency. They didn't even get a 1st round draft pick for the first two years.
So he asked the wrong question. The question is to name a HC with that bad a start in today's league who became successful, because the league favors parody these days with the cap and free agency.
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Post by thetruth on Nov 12, 2019 17:57:23 GMT -5
...........a pass from what ,the fool asked a question and I gave him the answer. Fair enough. He asked for it. And you are obviously right.
The fact of course is that the league is very different today. Back then expansion teams got nothing from the league. They had to languish for years before they could start winning. No salary cap. No free agency. They didn't even get a 1st round draft pick for the first two years.
So he asked the wrong question. The question is to name a HC with that bad a start in today's league who became successful, because the league favors parody these days with the cap and free agency.
Or better yet, name a successful HC who's worked with similar roster from a talent perspective, top down. Curiously anticipating the responses
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Post by leonperry on Nov 12, 2019 18:18:19 GMT -5
...........a pass from what ,the fool asked a question and I gave him the answer. Fair enough. He asked for it. And you are obviously right.
The fact of course is that the league is very different today. Back then expansion teams got nothing from the league. They had to languish for years before they could start winning. No salary cap. No free agency. They didn't even get a 1st round draft pick for the first two years.
So he asked the wrong question. The question is to name a HC with that bad a start in today's league who became successful, because the league favors parody these days with the cap and free agency.
yes, and the Giants are living proof of that, haha... i didn't know the exact conditions under which Dallas came into the league but i figured as much, the established teams conceded nothing in the pro leagues for expansion teams... Hell, they had to buy their way into the league... Not only that, but in looking it up they were the only expansion team, so there wasn't even a direct comparison with a new team under the same circumstances.
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Post by Dogecoin on Nov 13, 2019 10:33:15 GMT -5
Fair enough. He asked for it. And you are obviously right.
The fact of course is that the league is very different today. Back then expansion teams got nothing from the league. They had to languish for years before they could start winning. No salary cap. No free agency. They didn't even get a 1st round draft pick for the first two years.
So he asked the wrong question. The question is to name a HC with that bad a start in today's league who became successful, because the league favors parody these days with the cap and free agency.
Or better yet, name a successful HC who's worked with similar roster from a talent perspective, top down. Curiously anticipating the responses Mike Tomlin this season ...Steelers were left for dead without Ben and AB. Now they're on fire. With shurmur they'd have collapsed and the excuse book would have been rolled out. Would love to see Tomlin on our sideline.
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Post by Morehead State on Nov 13, 2019 10:35:31 GMT -5
Fair enough. He asked for it. And you are obviously right.
The fact of course is that the league is very different today. Back then expansion teams got nothing from the league. They had to languish for years before they could start winning. No salary cap. No free agency. They didn't even get a 1st round draft pick for the first two years.
So he asked the wrong question. The question is to name a HC with that bad a start in today's league who became successful, because the league favors parody these days with the cap and free agency.
Or better yet, name a successful HC who's worked with similar roster from a talent perspective, top down. Curiously anticipating the responses "similar roster from a talent perspective" ....is impossible to define.
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Post by TCHOF on Nov 13, 2019 11:17:02 GMT -5
Please, name one coach who started 17-41 in his career and then became successful. Hint: Shurmur ain't him . Face it, you were wrong, you said something stupid and I called you on it . Is Shurmur Landry,doubt it, ........I never said he was and never suggested that , all I did was prove you wrong. So you think that you've made a good point for keeping Shurmur because you identified a coach from 200 years ago who got better after a similarly bad start to his HC career?
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Post by thetruth on Nov 13, 2019 11:45:36 GMT -5
Or better yet, name a successful HC who's worked with similar roster from a talent perspective, top down. Curiously anticipating the responses Mike Tomlin this season ...Steelers were left for dead without Ben and AB. Now they're on fire. With shurmur they'd have collapsed and the excuse book would have been rolled out. Would love to see Tomlin on our sideline. Steelers have a talented roster, though. Makes a difference.
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Post by thetruth on Nov 13, 2019 11:49:24 GMT -5
Or better yet, name a successful HC who's worked with similar roster from a talent perspective, top down. Curiously anticipating the responses "similar roster from a talent perspective" ....is impossible to define. Or, how about: Which HC is able to win games with a roster that is devoid of talent (relative to their peers league wide) at the following premium positions: - EDGE - CB - WR1 - OT We have a bottom 5 talented roster in this league. Its almost as if people think otherwise, is that why we're fired up? We're slightly behind expectations but probably right there with very little standard deviation.
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Post by Dogecoin on Nov 13, 2019 12:30:08 GMT -5
"similar roster from a talent perspective" ....is impossible to define. Or, how about: Which HC is able to win games with a roster that is devoid of talent (relative to their peers league wide) at the following premium positions: - EDGE - CB - WR1 - OT We have a bottom 5 talented roster in this league. Its almost as if people think otherwise, is that why we're fired up? We're slightly behind expectations but probably right there with very little standard deviation. Even if you go there then you are conceding that the same guy who led to depleted talent (which btw he claims to have upgraded in several key areas) also selected this coach.
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Post by thetruth on Nov 13, 2019 12:49:21 GMT -5
Or, how about: Which HC is able to win games with a roster that is devoid of talent (relative to their peers league wide) at the following premium positions: - EDGE - CB - WR1 - OT We have a bottom 5 talented roster in this league. Its almost as if people think otherwise, is that why we're fired up? We're slightly behind expectations but probably right there with very little standard deviation. Even if you go there then you are conceding that the same guy who led to depleted talent (which btw he claims to have upgraded in several key areas) also selected this coach. Gettlemen can claim what he wants, the facts are that we suck and he hasn't improved anything. Our record confirms that. Yes, he also hired Shurmur. Begs the question, should he be in charge of making these decisions going forward? He had the job in the bag as soon as it became available. I think he'll be around for awhile as Mara is typically sentimentally attached to these folks.
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Post by TCHOF on Nov 13, 2019 12:51:24 GMT -5
"similar roster from a talent perspective" ....is impossible to define. Or, how about: Which HC is able to win games with a roster that is devoid of talent (relative to their peers league wide) at the following premium positions: - EDGE - CB - WR1 - OT We have a bottom 5 talented roster in this league. Its almost as if people think otherwise, is that why we're fired up? We're slightly behind expectations but probably right there with very little standard deviation. These are fair points if people were looking to oust Shurmur just because of his record.
It's more than that though. Shurmur has shown that he is a horrendous in-game manager (nothing to do with talent). He made the horrible miscalculation of letting the players turn the locker room into Funtown USA in a locker room filled with rookies who haven't figured out what it means to be a professional yet. He can't seem to do anything with our star RB other than run him up the middle.
He is not the guy who is going to take us to the next level. Trust me on that.
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Post by thetruth on Nov 13, 2019 12:53:37 GMT -5
Or, how about: Which HC is able to win games with a roster that is devoid of talent (relative to their peers league wide) at the following premium positions: - EDGE - CB - WR1 - OT We have a bottom 5 talented roster in this league. Its almost as if people think otherwise, is that why we're fired up? We're slightly behind expectations but probably right there with very little standard deviation. These are fair points if people were looking to oust Shurmur just because of his record.
It's more than that though. Shurmur has shown that he is a horrendous in-game manager (nothing to do with talent). He made the horrible miscalculation of letting the players turn the locker room into Funtown USA in a locker room filled with rookies who haven't figured out what it means to be a professional yet. He can't seem to do anything with our star RB other than run him up the middle.
He is not the guy who is going to take us to the next level. Trust me on that.
Fair points. However, I dont think our record would nominally change with someone else at HC is all im saying. Culture is one thing, but talent wins in this league.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 13:14:43 GMT -5
Or, how about: Which HC is able to win games with a roster that is devoid of talent (relative to their peers league wide) at the following premium positions: - EDGE - CB - WR1 - OT We have a bottom 5 talented roster in this league. Its almost as if people think otherwise, is that why we're fired up? We're slightly behind expectations but probably right there with very little standard deviation. These are fair points if people were looking to oust Shurmur just because of his record.
It's more than that though. Shurmur has shown that he is a horrendous in-game manager (nothing to do with talent). He made the horrible miscalculation of letting the players turn the locker room into Funtown USA in a locker room filled with rookies who haven't figured out what it means to be a professional yet. He can't seem to do anything with our star RB other than run him up the middle.
He is not the guy who is going to take us to the next level. Trust me on that.
Exactly Shurmurs biggest problems have nothing to do with talent. Has to do with HIM
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Post by TCHOF on Nov 13, 2019 13:19:34 GMT -5
These are fair points if people were looking to oust Shurmur just because of his record.
It's more than that though. Shurmur has shown that he is a horrendous in-game manager (nothing to do with talent). He made the horrible miscalculation of letting the players turn the locker room into Funtown USA in a locker room filled with rookies who haven't figured out what it means to be a professional yet. He can't seem to do anything with our star RB other than run him up the middle.
He is not the guy who is going to take us to the next level. Trust me on that.
Fair points. However, I dont think our record would nominally change with someone else at HC is all im saying. Culture is one thing, but talent wins in this league. You may be right, but what happens if we upgrade the talent on the roster and then reach the realization that Shurmur is not the guy?
My opinion is that if they have reached the realization that Shurmur is not the guy to take this franchise forward, then screw continuity and get him out of here sooner rather than later.
If that is still an open question for them, then I guess it makes sense for them to keep him.
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Post by jmike on Nov 13, 2019 13:40:03 GMT -5
Engram couldn’t catch a cold in Antarctica. Due to extreme temperatures, Antarctica doesn't have a lot of virus or bacteria growth that would get someone sick. Like with a cold.
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Post by Morehead State on Nov 13, 2019 15:26:20 GMT -5
"similar roster from a talent perspective" ....is impossible to define. Or, how about: Which HC is able to win games with a roster that is devoid of talent (relative to their peers league wide) at the following premium positions: - EDGE - CB - WR1 - OT We have a bottom 5 talented roster in this league. Its almost as if people think otherwise, is that why we're fired up? We're slightly behind expectations but probably right there with very little standard deviation. How do we know that those positions aren't under performing because of poor coaching?
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Post by scoostraw on Nov 13, 2019 15:35:34 GMT -5
Gettlemen can claim what he wants, the facts are that we suck and he hasn't improved anything. Our record confirms that. Yes, he also hired Shurmur. Supposedly Mara hired Shurmur.
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Post by scoostraw on Nov 13, 2019 15:37:59 GMT -5
So you think that you've made a good point for keeping Shurmur because you identified a coach from 200 years ago who got better after a similarly bad start to his HC career? I don't know if Shurmur is the guy or not ,none of us do . With that said my point in keeping Shurmur is this ,the ownership/Front Office picked him to guide the next franchise QB of the NY GIant and that is what he is doing. They will give him his contract at least .You might not like it but DG and Pat Shurmur aren't going anywhere till at the earliest after 2020. Oh man I wouldn't be so sure. I think things have changed.
If they DO keep Shurmur I'll just get a year off. I won't be paying any attention.
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Post by Dogecoin on Dec 1, 2019 21:06:07 GMT -5
Did some digging and think this may be root of shurmurs limitations: Comes from "football family" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_ShurmurTurns out his uncle was also a coach for over two decades. They probably think they know it all and as a result are set in their ways. Doesn't work in this day and age of sharp minded, younger coaches who rely on data and game theory. Bills coach running circles around cowboys very-shurmur like Jarret was one recent example. Before that fatso Rex Ryan (also from a full of themselves football family) got run out of buffalo and the league for good when it was clear his bravado was getting beaten by brains week after week.
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Post by TCHOF on Dec 7, 2019 7:11:28 GMT -5
So you think that you've made a good point for keeping Shurmur because you identified a coach from 200 years ago who got better after a similarly bad start to his HC career? I don't know if Shurmur is the guy or not ,none of us do . With that said my point in keeping Shurmur is this ,the ownership/Front Office picked him to guide the next franchise QB of the NY GIant and that is what he is doing. They will give him his contract at least .You might not like it but DG and Pat Shurmur aren't going anywhere till at the earliest after 2020. Hmmmm
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Post by giantsback2020 on Dec 7, 2019 7:14:25 GMT -5
So you think that you've made a good point for keeping Shurmur because you identified a coach from 200 years ago who got better after a similarly bad start to his HC career? I don't know if Shurmur is the guy or not ,none of us do . With that said my point in keeping Shurmur is this ,the ownership/Front Office picked him to guide the next franchise QB of the NY GIant and that is what he is doing. They will give him his contract at least .You might not like it but DG and Pat Shurmur aren't going anywhere till at the earliest after 2020. We all know Pat Shurmur isn’t the guy. Pat Shurmur knows Pat Shurmur is t the guy. And he’s getting fired this year. He’s led no one to improvement including the QB. I think you can argue Jones has regressed if anything.
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Post by Dogecoin on Dec 7, 2019 9:53:36 GMT -5
What herd says here about Garrett at beginning of video you can copy and paste about shurmur: he's a "have not" coach.
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