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Post by 80sdreincarnate on Jan 25, 2021 21:53:01 GMT -5
Looking back on Ben McAdoo and Spags 2nd tenure I really think we had the right staff in place. Congrats to Spags on making is 3rd SB as a DC. That 2017 season was such a perfect storm of expectations, to injuries, to internal strife, but at the end of the day the problem was Jerry Reese's inability to rebuild the offensive line. The Eli situation should not have led to so much fallout. 80's I believe this will be Spags 4th SB. I think he was Andy Reids DC last year as well. He has 3 SB rings, 2 with Big Blue under Coughlin and has 1 already with K.C. He could wind up with 4 SB rings.
He's already beat Brady twice in SB's.
Whew ! Atta Boy Spags.
Fewell was the DC in 2011. Spags won with us in 07 and KC last year.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Jan 25, 2021 22:10:02 GMT -5
80's I believe this will be Spags 4th SB. I think he was Andy Reids DC last year as well. He has 3 SB rings, 2 with Big Blue under Coughlin and has 1 already with K.C. He could wind up with 4 SB rings.
He's already beat Brady twice in SB's.
Whew ! Atta Boy Spags.
Fewell was the DC in 2011. Spags won with us in 07 and KC last year. Thanks I screwed up on a thread I started saying Spags has 3 SB rings. I'll have to find that thread and correct it. It was such a good point too.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jan 26, 2021 11:00:57 GMT -5
One of the toughest schedules in football no off season new head coach young team they aren't even comparable we will agree to disagree. We had 6 games against a pathetic Cowboys, Washington and Philly team. We played an awful Bengals team on top of a injury riddled 49ers team. Out of 16 games, 8 of them were against inferior opponents. Everything you said are excuses.. If we’re going to discredit and over analyze McAdoos 11 win season. Then let’s do the same thing for Judge last year. Most won’t do that, we’ll just say Judge is a wonderful head coach, and McAdoo is a moron. It’s easier that way. That season doesn't mean much to me looking back at the big picture. If we want to give him credit it would have to be for riding the defense to that many wins. But it was his offense. He took an pretty good offense that he and Coughlin created and scrapped it for one of the worst offenses I can remember. He personally coached Eli into a player that was afraid of his own shadow and left him unprotected with Flowers and Hart at the tackles. Winning seasons mean a hell lot to me. As we can see, we’ve had one since ‘13. I agree about his offense, he basically nurtured Eli and forced him to be a high completion percentage quarterback. As for Flowers and Hart. That falls on Reese. Hard to build a functioning offense with two turnstiles at tackle. No doubt a lot of blame goes to Reese for Flowers and Hart but he and McAdoo had to be on the same page in rolling with those two into 2017.
If I was a HC of a pro team, there is no way in hell I would let my GM leave me with a player like Bobby Hart, and it's on McAdoo for keeping Flowers at LT and not moving him.
While it may be mostly visceral, but one of the differences between Judge and McAdoo is Judge will get the best out of his players where McAdoo could not.
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Post by Kruunch on Jan 26, 2021 11:16:47 GMT -5
Fewell was the DC in 2011. Spags won with us in 07 and KC last year. Thanks I screwed up on a thread I started saying Spags has 3 SB rings. I'll have to find that thread and correct it. It was such a good point too. Rich, I think I speak for everyone. You don’t make mistakes, it’s Spags fault he doesn’t have 3 rings.
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Post by fifthavephil on Jan 26, 2021 11:25:56 GMT -5
Thanks I screwed up on a thread I started saying Spags has 3 SB rings. I'll have to find that thread and correct it. It was such a good point too. Rich, I think I speak for everyone. You don’t make mistakes, it’s Spags fault he doesn’t have 3 rings. In two weeks, he may have three .
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Post by Rangers13 on Feb 26, 2021 17:32:05 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings about Mac. I kind of would have liked to see him get another year or two to be honest and didn't think he was that bad overall. His team went 11-5 and he wanted Mahomes. That preseason the whole offense got injured, the season was over early and the defense rebelled. Perfect storm. If it was all Mac, then why didn’t the team rebound? It has yet to too which tells me the issues were beyond the head coach. Meanwhile, look at Mahomes.
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Post by DandyDon on Feb 26, 2021 17:36:57 GMT -5
I remember there was talk years back that Spags wasn’t a good defensive coordinator anymore. Like he fell on his head and forgot how to coach. In reality, he still knows how to coach. He just needs the players to do so. I know, who would have thought talented players make a coaches job easier.. As for McAdoo. He did win 11 games his first year. If Judge did that we would be giving him a ticker tape parade and the key to the City. Unfortunately for McAdoo, his second year he decided to go in a midlife crisis. Instead of the goofy next door neighbor look, he went with the douche bag Hollywood producer look. He had no pulse of the team, and his post game interviews were that of a Laurel & Hardy skit. You know when you say “he’s not head coach material?” Ben McAdoo fit that like a glove.
McAdoo took an offense that ranked about 10th in the league and revamped it into one of the worst.
That team won 11 games on the strength of the defense that Reese handed Spags.
Exactly.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 26, 2021 19:55:00 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings about Mac. I kind of would have liked to see him get another year or two to be honest and didn't think he was that bad overall. His team went 11-5 and he wanted Mahomes. That preseason the whole offense got injured, the season was over early and the defense rebelled. Perfect storm. If it was all Mac, then why didn’t the team rebound? It has yet to too which tells me the issues were beyond the head coach. Meanwhile, look at Mahomes. Mahomes would have been a disaster here. Thankfully for him the Giants didn't get him. The team would not be materially better and his career would look just like Deshaun Watson's.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 26, 2021 19:55:51 GMT -5
McAdoo took an offense that ranked about 10th in the league and revamped it into one of the worst.
That team won 11 games on the strength of the defense that Reese handed Spags.
Exactly. Plus an incredibly easy schedule. And the team still barely won most of its games.
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Post by Rangers13 on Feb 26, 2021 20:04:56 GMT -5
His team went 11-5 and he wanted Mahomes. That preseason the whole offense got injured, the season was over early and the defense rebelled. Perfect storm. If it was all Mac, then why didn’t the team rebound? It has yet to too which tells me the issues were beyond the head coach. Meanwhile, look at Mahomes. Mahomes would have been a disaster here. Thankfully for him the Giants didn't get him. The team would not be materially better and his career would look just like Deshaun Watson's. not sure anybody would have done well here. Regardless, Mac wanted him and he gave every indication Eli was done. Looks like he was right and the issues go well beyond him b/c the team still isn’t winning.
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Post by DandyDon on Feb 26, 2021 20:37:51 GMT -5
Plus an incredibly easy schedule. And the team still barely won most of its games. I'm trying to credit that 11 win season to Mac, but I can't. They invested $200 million on the defense, while Mac's offense fell off a cliff.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 26, 2021 20:59:55 GMT -5
Mahomes would have been a disaster here. Thankfully for him the Giants didn't get him. The team would not be materially better and his career would look just like Deshaun Watson's. not sure anybody would have done well here. Regardless, Mac wanted him and he gave every indication Eli was done. Looks like he was right and the issues go well beyond him b/c the team still isn’t winning. I'm pretty sure Pat Shurmur was right about something once too. Didn't make him any better at his job though.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 26, 2021 21:01:59 GMT -5
Plus an incredibly easy schedule. And the team still barely won most of its games. I'm trying to credit that 11 win season to Mac, but I can't. They invested $200 million on the defense, while Mac's offense fell off a cliff. He did a good job coaching those games to wins. I wouldn't take that away from him, but given the same circumstances I don't think there is any shortage of coaches that could have done that.
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Post by DandyDon on Feb 26, 2021 21:39:33 GMT -5
I'm trying to credit that 11 win season to Mac, but I can't. They invested $200 million on the defense, while Mac's offense fell off a cliff. He did a good job coaching those games to wins. I wouldn't take that away from him, but given the same circumstances I don't think there is any shortage of coaches that could have done that. I agree, he did do enough as a HC to win 11 games, and that will be on his resume. But he also took a top 10 offense and turned it into a bottom 10 offense in his 2 years as an HC. I get that it wasnt all on him, but he was supposed to be an offensive guru and failed miserably. He was in over his head, and that's as much on ownership as it is on him. I expect he learned from that experience, hoping our ownership learned something too.
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Post by Rangers13 on Feb 26, 2021 21:50:51 GMT -5
not sure anybody would have done well here. Regardless, Mac wanted him and he gave every indication Eli was done. Looks like he was right and the issues go well beyond him b/c the team still isn’t winning. I'm pretty sure Pat Shurmur was right about something once too. Didn't make him any better at his job though. So you really believe that fiasco was all Mac’s fault? The GM brought in zero offensive linemen. The line couldn’t block with receivers yet the Giants lost all of them. The defense rebelled. The QB was finished. It’s not like the team found their way once he left.
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jppt1974
Rookie
May Day and Flowers!
Posts: 79
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Post by jppt1974 on Feb 26, 2021 23:20:40 GMT -5
Well it is about that problem. Over in the OL there. As they need to beef it up to protect whoever is at QB!
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 27, 2021 12:55:41 GMT -5
He did a good job coaching those games to wins. I wouldn't take that away from him, but given the same circumstances I don't think there is any shortage of coaches that could have done that. I agree, he did do enough as a HC to win 11 games, and that will be on his resume. But he also took a top 10 offense and turned it into a bottom 10 offense in his 2 years as an HC. I get that it wasnt all on him, but he was supposed to be an offensive guru and failed miserably. He was in over his head, and that's as much on ownership as it is on him. I expect he learned from that experience, hoping our ownership learned something too. Well actually that is all on him. He was the HC that changed the direction of the offense and ground it to a halt. It won't like that when TC was the HC and he was the OC.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 27, 2021 13:00:36 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Pat Shurmur was right about something once too. Didn't make him any better at his job though. So you really believe that fiasco was all Mac’s fault? The GM brought in zero offensive linemen. The line couldn’t block with receivers yet the Giants lost all of them. The defense rebelled. The QB was finished. It’s not like the team found their way once he left. No, of course it wasn't all his fault. Just as the continued failures of the team over the past decade are not any one person's fault. Losing the team was absolutely his fault. The defense rebelled is not an isolated incident, that was specific to his lack of leadership.
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Post by Rangers13 on Feb 27, 2021 13:50:18 GMT -5
So you really believe that fiasco was all Mac’s fault? The GM brought in zero offensive linemen. The line couldn’t block with receivers yet the Giants lost all of them. The defense rebelled. The QB was finished. It’s not like the team found their way once he left. No, of course it wasn't all his fault. Just as the continued failures of the team over the past decade are not any one person's fault. Losing the team was absolutely his fault. The defense rebelled is not an isolated incident, that was specific to his lack of leadership. how do you not lose the team? the core defensive players were free agent signings. The QB was practically finished. ALL the receivers were out. ZERO additions were made to the OL. The whole roster knew they were doomed. What should a young second year coach do? It’s not that Mac didn’t take the brunt of blame which stuns me but how everybody gave the rest of the hierarchy a pass. Eli and the OL stunk and the receivers were all injured regardless of head coach. Find me over priced defensive veterans who wouldn’t quit. Only mistake i see Mac making was not throwing the team under the bus but rather repeat, “we need to look at the tape” to take all the cr@p players off the hook.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 27, 2021 14:29:39 GMT -5
No, of course it wasn't all his fault. Just as the continued failures of the team over the past decade are not any one person's fault. Losing the team was absolutely his fault. The defense rebelled is not an isolated incident, that was specific to his lack of leadership. how do you not lose the team? the core defensive players were free agent signings. The QB was practically finished. ALL the receivers were out. ZERO additions were made to the OL. The whole roster knew they were doomed. What should a young second year coach do? It’s not that Mac didn’t take the brunt of blame which stuns me but how everybody gave the rest of the hierarchy a pass. Eli and the OL stunk and the receivers were all injured regardless of head coach. Find me over priced defensive veterans who wouldn’t quit. Only mistake i see Mac making was not throwing the team under the bus but rather repeat, “we need to look at the tape” to take all the cr@p players off the hook. Plenty of HC inherit crap situations and don’t lose control of their teams. The team was even worse under Shurmur and he managed to not lose control of the team so I really can’t agree with making excuses for Mcadoo’s failures. He has so many. Good coaches adapt to the players they have, bad coaches try to force players into their system, regardless of their skill sets and then complain when it inevitably doesn’t work. Which is how he operated. He also was quick to throw his players under the bus to the media which is the fastest way to lose all respect in the locker room and ultimately lose the team. Not throwing your players under the bus isn’t admirable, it’s expected. No leader ever throws his players under the bus to the media, that’s the calling card of cowards. The list of things he was wrong about is very long and eventually were his undoing. Be it the offense he destroyed, the defense he mismanaged, the player relationships he mishandled or his drive to trade real advancement for the appearance of incremental progress. Every HC inherits problems, how you deal with those problems is the difference between professionals and hacks. I don’t think he was a bad guy at all and he may be a decent coach, I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve a chance somewhere, just that he was in way, way over his head with the Giants.
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Post by Rangers13 on Feb 27, 2021 14:42:06 GMT -5
how do you not lose the team? the core defensive players were free agent signings. The QB was practically finished. ALL the receivers were out. ZERO additions were made to the OL. The whole roster knew they were doomed. What should a young second year coach do? It’s not that Mac didn’t take the brunt of blame which stuns me but how everybody gave the rest of the hierarchy a pass. Eli and the OL stunk and the receivers were all injured regardless of head coach. Find me over priced defensive veterans who wouldn’t quit. Only mistake i see Mac making was not throwing the team under the bus but rather repeat, “we need to look at the tape” to take all the cr@p players off the hook. Plenty of HC inherit crap situations and don’t lose control of their teams. The team was even worse under Shurmur and he managed to not lose control of the team so I really can’t agree with making excuses for Mcadoo’s failures. He has so many. Good coaches adapt to the players they have, bad coaches try to force players into their system, regardless of their skill sets and then complain when it inevitably doesn’t work. Which is how he operated. He also was quick to throw his players under the bus to the media which is the fastest way to lose all respect in the locker room and ultimately lose the team. Not throwing your players under the bus isn’t admirable, it’s expected. No leader ever throws his players under the bus to the media, that’s the calling card of cowards. The list of things he was wrong about is very long and eventually were his undoing. Be it the offense he destroyed, the defense he mismanaged, the player relationships he mishandled or his drive to trade real advancement for the appearance of incremental progress. Every HC inherits problems, how you deal with those problems is the difference between professionals and hacks. I don’t think he was a bad guy at all and he may be a decent coach, I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve a chance somewhere, just that he was in way, way over his head with the Giants. i get it. People absolutely hate him. Love to hear what offense a coach should implement with no OL and no receivers with a QB who is finished. What coach does well under those circumstances in the history of football? I can’t name one. Three years since then and the team has 15 wins. They had 11 with him prior to the hate season. He may not have been a good coach but imo was the great scapegoat. Lot of haters rode the media bandwagon imo. 15 wins since.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 27, 2021 15:01:51 GMT -5
Plenty of HC inherit crap situations and don’t lose control of their teams. The team was even worse under Shurmur and he managed to not lose control of the team so I really can’t agree with making excuses for Mcadoo’s failures. He has so many. Good coaches adapt to the players they have, bad coaches try to force players into their system, regardless of their skill sets and then complain when it inevitably doesn’t work. Which is how he operated. He also was quick to throw his players under the bus to the media which is the fastest way to lose all respect in the locker room and ultimately lose the team. Not throwing your players under the bus isn’t admirable, it’s expected. No leader ever throws his players under the bus to the media, that’s the calling card of cowards. The list of things he was wrong about is very long and eventually were his undoing. Be it the offense he destroyed, the defense he mismanaged, the player relationships he mishandled or his drive to trade real advancement for the appearance of incremental progress. Every HC inherits problems, how you deal with those problems is the difference between professionals and hacks. I don’t think he was a bad guy at all and he may be a decent coach, I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve a chance somewhere, just that he was in way, way over his head with the Giants. i get it. People absolutely hate him. Love to hear what offense a coach should implement with no OL and no receivers with a QB who is finished. What coach does well under those circumstances in the history of football? I can’t name one. Three years since then and the team has 15 wins. They had 11 with him prior to the hate season. He may not have been a good coach but imo was the great scapegoat. Lot of haters rode the media bandwagon imo. 15 wins since. I don’t hate him at all. It’s not his fault he took a great job for which he wasn’t qualified. Who wouldn’t? And yeah, he was definitely scapegoated, as was TC and others.....but two wrongs don’t make a right. I’m not going to make shit up and pretend he was better than he was just because he got the short end of the stick in his tenure the Giants. Plus he earned some of that, he wasn’t blameless in any way. Many of the hits he took were the direct results of bad decisions he made. There is simply no denying or escaping that. To me doing so would imply that he was doing things right and there is just zero evidence supporting that.
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Post by Roosevelt on Feb 27, 2021 19:57:26 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Pat Shurmur was right about something once too. Didn't make him any better at his job though. So you really believe that fiasco was all Mac’s fault? The GM brought in zero offensive linemen. The line couldn’t block with receivers yet the Giants lost all of them. The defense rebelled. The QB was finished. It’s not like the team found their way once he left.
McAdoo was the wrong coach at the wrong time.
John Mara admitted that what made him feel best about the hiring of both Gettleman and Shurmur was their desire to fix the offensive line.
This tells me two things. First, it tells me that John Mara is more 'hands off' then many are willing to admit, and that's not a good thing, and second, it tells me the Oline was not the priority to Ben & Jerry that it should have been.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 27, 2021 22:32:57 GMT -5
So you really believe that fiasco was all Mac’s fault? The GM brought in zero offensive linemen. The line couldn’t block with receivers yet the Giants lost all of them. The defense rebelled. The QB was finished. It’s not like the team found their way once he left.
McAdoo was the wrong coach at the wrong time.
John Mara admitted that what made him feel best about the hiring of both Gettleman and Shurmur was their desire to fix the offensive line.
This tells me two things. First, it tells me that John Mara is more 'hands off' then many are willing to admit, and that's not a good thing, and second, it tells me the Oline was not the priority to Ben & Jerry that it should have been. It's hard to say how much latitude they actually give the HC. Or maybe it's personality driven and the HC has to step up and take it. But wrong coach at the wrong time is probably the right way to look at it. To Rangers point, the team was crap when he joined and maybe he didn't feel he was given the power to insist on the changes he needed.
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Post by Rangers13 on Feb 27, 2021 23:11:32 GMT -5
So you really believe that fiasco was all Mac’s fault? The GM brought in zero offensive linemen. The line couldn’t block with receivers yet the Giants lost all of them. The defense rebelled. The QB was finished. It’s not like the team found their way once he left.
McAdoo was the wrong coach at the wrong time.
John Mara admitted that what made him feel best about the hiring of both Gettleman and Shurmur was their desire to fix the offensive line.
This tells me two things. First, it tells me that John Mara is more 'hands off' then many are willing to admit, and that's not a good thing, and second, it tells me the Oline was not the priority to Ben & Jerry that it should have been. I’m not sure what goes on in the front office. We hear about a voting system for picks. Reese drafted Flowers and missed on free agents. Gettleman talked about hog mollies and goes HB, Qb, etc and missed on free agents. As far as Mac. No idea if he was a good coach. We know a Bill Parcells didn’t get it right until 42 years of age. Belichick was doing ok in Cleveland at the same age until the move. His HC legacy began at 48/49 years. Mac was 39 and the only reason the roster was better is the front office spent all this cash on defense only after Coughlin was let go. Why didn’t Coughlin get that defense? Then (see above) no healthy weapons and no OL with an old QB and uptight defense. On to Shumur, now Judge. I’m still not sure what this team is. 6 wins.
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Post by myronguyton29 on Mar 3, 2021 8:08:22 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings about Mac. I kind of would have liked to see him get another year or two to be honest and didn't think he was that bad overall. His team went 11-5 and he wanted Mahomes. That preseason the whole offense got injured, the season was over early and the defense rebelled. Perfect storm. If it was all Mac, then why didn’t the team rebound? It has yet to too which tells me the issues were beyond the head coach. Meanwhile, look at Mahomes. excellent points bro
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 3, 2021 11:58:38 GMT -5
His team went 11-5 and he wanted Mahomes. That preseason the whole offense got injured, the season was over early and the defense rebelled. Perfect storm. If it was all Mac, then why didn’t the team rebound? It has yet to too which tells me the issues were beyond the head coach. Meanwhile, look at Mahomes. excellent points bro None of those those things were ever in dispute by anyone. It was never all on Mac anymore than it was all on Reese or all on Coughlin, they also paid with their jobs. That's just the business. That's always been self evident and has nothing at all to do with the logical fallacy that they imply McAdoo was a good HC. That separate and the Mahomes is completely irrelevant to the situation.
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Post by Rangers13 on Mar 3, 2021 22:16:20 GMT -5
None of those those things were ever in dispute by anyone. It was never all on Mac anymore than it was all on Reese or all on Coughlin, they also paid with their jobs. That's just the business. That's always been self evident and has nothing at all to do with the logical fallacy that they imply McAdoo was a good HC. That separate and the Mahomes is completely irrelevant to the situation. Mahomes is not irrelevant. Mac recognized Eli was done. The whole organization felt otherwise so kept Eli around. What’s being implied is the whole organization was more lost than Mac.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 3, 2021 22:42:40 GMT -5
None of those those things were ever in dispute by anyone. It was never all on Mac anymore than it was all on Reese or all on Coughlin, they also paid with their jobs. That's just the business. That's always been self evident and has nothing at all to do with the logical fallacy that they imply McAdoo was a good HC. That separate and the Mahomes is completely irrelevant to the situation. Mahomes is not irrelevant. Mac recognized Eli was done. The whole organization felt otherwise so kept Eli around. What’s being implied is the whole organization was more lost than Mac. As you may remember...It was the mob who still wanted Eli. John Mara was intimidated by that mob and the long term interests of the team were badly harmed because of it. It brought us Gettleman and in gave us more Eli, long after he was able to be a winning QB.
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Post by Rangers13 on Mar 3, 2021 23:05:15 GMT -5
Mahomes is not irrelevant. Mac recognized Eli was done. The whole organization felt otherwise so kept Eli around. What’s being implied is the whole organization was more lost than Mac. As you may remember...It was the mob who still wanted Eli. John Mara was intimidated by that mob and the long term interests of the team were badly harmed because of it. It brought us Gettleman and in gave us more Eli, long after he was able to be a winning QB.
Yup and Mara is lost imo. He knew the message was going to be sent to Eli and wasn’t even in the building. The chaos could have been cleaned up by Tuesday but Mara did nothing. As far as Mac, he had to live with the players that season. Rather than call them out he took the high road with the media and kept repeating “we have to look at the film” and moved on. What else could he say? We can’t block, nobody can catch and the QB is terrible? His mistake was starting Smith b/c he could have sold Davis Webb. Regardless, Mac was on the front line while everybody else hid.
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