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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 14:01:05 GMT -5
I don't disagree that we are heading for a cliff and chaos is enevitable. I'd just like to win some SBs before that happens LMAO.....I'm with you one that my friend. Giants sure have been a small sliver of that chaos the past few seasons. Nice talk. Great points.
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Post by jmike on May 3, 2021 14:01:30 GMT -5
The PC crowd is the major part of what I am talking about. But I cannot apply my principles to one group and not another. Which is fundamentally the problem with the manner in which these large tech companies apply their rules. It's about keeping your fan base. Unfortunately, this is true. But it only allows for group think of one point of view. This leads to very bad things in the end.
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Post by jmike on May 3, 2021 14:01:52 GMT -5
LMAO.....I'm with you one that my friend. Giants sure have been a small sliver of that chaos the past few seasons. Nice talk. Great points. Agreed, thank you very much for having it.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 14:03:22 GMT -5
It's about keeping your fan base. Unfortunately, this is true. But it only allows for group think of one point of view. This leads to very bad things in the end. I think its more of a trying to balance between the 2 without pissing off one side or thr other. Compromise is traitorous now.
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Post by vinnie on May 3, 2021 16:07:42 GMT -5
And....are we supposed to ignore it? Not talk about it? Everything discussed on this site is what if’s and hypotheticals. Galloday may suck, be great or mediocre...conversation over. Gettleman may be here next year or he may not....conversation over. Our defense may improve or it may not...conversation over. What else should we talk about? where did I say dont talk about it? I just summed it for a quick review. Kind of like cliff notes. Just saying we could sum up every thread here the same way
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Post by GameTime on May 3, 2021 16:14:38 GMT -5
where did I say dont talk about it? I just summed it for a quick review. Kind of like cliff notes. Just saying we could sum up every thread here the same way I like brevity some times. I do that from time to time when things get long winded. It causes some tension but I do it anyway. Then I give myself a 33% warning.
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Post by TCHOF on May 3, 2021 16:18:26 GMT -5
where did I say dont talk about it? I just summed it for a quick review. Kind of like cliff notes. Just saying we could sum up every thread here the same way I may have missed it, but did you ever identify the OL that you wanted us to draft instead of the guys that we took?
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Post by vinnie on May 3, 2021 16:30:18 GMT -5
Just saying we could sum up every thread here the same way I may have missed it, but did you ever identify the OL that you wanted us to draft instead of the guys that we took? No, I was at work, got off this morning, and slept half the day. I’ll try to get to it tonight or definitely tomorrow.
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Post by vinnie on May 3, 2021 17:19:03 GMT -5
Just saying we could sum up every thread here the same way I may have missed it, but did you ever identify the OL that you wanted us to draft instead of the guys that we took? Heres a quick summary without breaking down every small time prospect. I love the Robinson pick but for several reasons, I would have made guard a priority. I’m not going to get into why because apparently my posts are too long winded and “ranty”. I’m also not going to put them in any specific order with the exception of the first two and most obvious. We could have had either of these guys instead of Brightwell or Williams and not taking one was pure stupidity, one of them would have been my preference. 1) Trey Smith: top 100 player in the draft and one of the best at his position, spare me the blood clot scare, it happened in 2018 and he played two full seasons since IIRC. We took and edge with an arthritic knee and even if Smith didn’t work out due to medical issues, the risk was well worth it IMO by taking a much needed position AND top player for that position over a 6th round CB and a RB. 2) Deonte Brown Less desirable but I still feel that right now guard is more of a need, plus some of these guys are just as good at their positions. We could have stayed where we originally were without having to move up or give up a draft pick to get any of them. Wyatt Davis (86th) Kendrick Green (87th) Quinn Meinerz (98th pick) Spencer Brown (93rd) Ben Cleveland (94th)
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 17:26:22 GMT -5
I may have missed it, but did you ever identify the OL that you wanted us to draft instead of the guys that we took? Heres a quick summary without breaking down every small time prospect. I love the Robinson pick but for several reasons, I would have made guard a priority. I’m not going to get into why because apparently my posts are too long winded and “ranty”. I’m also not going to put them in any specific order with the exception of the first two and most obvious. We could have had either of these guys instead of Brightwell or Williams and not taking one was pure stupidity, one of them would have been my preference. 1) Trey Smith: top 100 player in the draft and one of the best at his position, spare me the blood clot scare, it happened in 2018 and he played two full seasons since IIRC. We took and edge with an arthritic knee and even if Smith didn’t work out due to medical issues, the risk was well worth it IMO by taking a much needed position AND top player for that position over a 6th round CB and a RB. 2) Deonte Brown Less desirable but I still feel that right now guard is more of a need, plus some of these guys are just as good at their positions. We could have stayed where we originally were without having to move up or give up a draft pick to get any of them. Wyatt Davis (86th) Kendrick Green (87th) Quinn Meinerz (98th pick) Spencer Brown (93rd) Ben Cleveland (94th) It seems my methods ARE working. 😜
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Post by vinnie on May 3, 2021 17:36:12 GMT -5
Heres a quick summary without breaking down every small time prospect. I love the Robinson pick but for several reasons, I would have made guard a priority. I’m not going to get into why because apparently my posts are too long winded and “ranty”. I’m also not going to put them in any specific order with the exception of the first two and most obvious. We could have had either of these guys instead of Brightwell or Williams and not taking one was pure stupidity, one of them would have been my preference. 1) Trey Smith: top 100 player in the draft and one of the best at his position, spare me the blood clot scare, it happened in 2018 and he played two full seasons since IIRC. We took and edge with an arthritic knee and even if Smith didn’t work out due to medical issues, the risk was well worth it IMO by taking a much needed position AND top player for that position over a 6th round CB and a RB. 2) Deonte Brown Less desirable but I still feel that right now guard is more of a need, plus some of these guys are just as good at their positions. We could have stayed where we originally were without having to move up or give up a draft pick to get any of them. Wyatt Davis (86th) Kendrick Green (87th) Quinn Meinerz (98th pick) Spencer Brown (93rd) Ben Cleveland (94th) It seems my methods ARE working. 😜 Ugh...I really don’t want to like this but I will. Don’t expect me to keep it up, I’m being lazy.
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Post by jmike on May 4, 2021 7:36:00 GMT -5
I may have missed it, but did you ever identify the OL that you wanted us to draft instead of the guys that we took? Heres a quick summary without breaking down every small time prospect. I love the Robinson pick but for several reasons, I would have made guard a priority. I’m not going to get into why because apparently my posts are too long winded and “ranty”. I’m also not going to put them in any specific order with the exception of the first two and most obvious. We could have had either of these guys instead of Brightwell or Williams and not taking one was pure stupidity, one of them would have been my preference. 1) Trey Smith: top 100 player in the draft and one of the best at his position, spare me the blood clot scare, it happened in 2018 and he played two full seasons since IIRC. We took and edge with an arthritic knee and even if Smith didn’t work out due to medical issues, the risk was well worth it IMO by taking a much needed position AND top player for that position over a 6th round CB and a RB. 2) Deonte Brown Less desirable but I still feel that right now guard is more of a need, plus some of these guys are just as good at their positions. We could have stayed where we originally were without having to move up or give up a draft pick to get any of them. Wyatt Davis (86th) Kendrick Green (87th) Quinn Meinerz (98th pick) Spencer Brown (93rd) Ben Cleveland (94th) 1-Well it seems the NFL teams that were able to have his doctors check it out were very concerned about it since he fell into the 7th round. 2-Brown isn't all that great at what he does well, and he doesn't move. I had virtually no interest in the Giants drafting him. 3-Wyatt Davis is very inconsistent. If he was there in the 6th, I may have taken a flyer on him. But his issues do not seem correctable to me. He has very bad balance, spends a lot of his time on the ground. When he can manage to stay upright he is among the best couple of guards in the class, but he will get his QBs killed several times if he plays any significant amount of time. 3-Kendrick Green, no comment didn't watch much of him. 4, 5 & 6 - All went before our 4th round pick and were not available. Robinson is the better prospect and we would lose on him, and a bit of a reach for both Meinerz and Cleveland. Brown I really like, but he is a tackle only prospect, so not really much help to the interior line.
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Post by vinnie on May 4, 2021 8:01:41 GMT -5
Heres a quick summary without breaking down every small time prospect. I love the Robinson pick but for several reasons, I would have made guard a priority. I’m not going to get into why because apparently my posts are too long winded and “ranty”. I’m also not going to put them in any specific order with the exception of the first two and most obvious. We could have had either of these guys instead of Brightwell or Williams and not taking one was pure stupidity, one of them would have been my preference. 1) Trey Smith: top 100 player in the draft and one of the best at his position, spare me the blood clot scare, it happened in 2018 and he played two full seasons since IIRC. We took and edge with an arthritic knee and even if Smith didn’t work out due to medical issues, the risk was well worth it IMO by taking a much needed position AND top player for that position over a 6th round CB and a RB. 2) Deonte Brown Less desirable but I still feel that right now guard is more of a need, plus some of these guys are just as good at their positions. We could have stayed where we originally were without having to move up or give up a draft pick to get any of them. Wyatt Davis (86th) Kendrick Green (87th) Quinn Meinerz (98th pick) Spencer Brown (93rd) Ben Cleveland (94th) 1-Well it seems the NFL teams that were able to have his doctors check it out were very concerned about it since he fell into the 7th round. 2-Brown isn't all that great at what he does well, and he doesn't move. I had virtually no interest in the Giants drafting him. 3-Wyatt Davis is very inconsistent. If he was there in the 6th, I may have taken a flyer on him. But his issues do not seem correctable to me. He has very bad balance, spends a lot of his time on the ground. When he can manage to stay upright he is among the best couple of guards in the class, but he will get his QBs killed several times if he plays any significant amount of time. 3-Kendrick Green, no comment didn't watch much of him. 4, 5 & 6 - All went before our 4th round pick and were not available. Robinson is the better prospect and we would lose on him, and a bit of a reach for both Meinerz and Cleveland. Brown I really like, but he is a tackle only prospect, so not really much help to the interior line. Smith still played two full seasons, 19 and 20, that says something. No, I’m not a doctor but I still think the risk of drafting him outweighs the benefit of a late round RB or 6th round CB who will probably be cut during training camp. As long as Brown stays healthy he would have had a very high chance of starting from Day 1. Even getting half a season out of him to help see what DJ is, would have been better than a guy riding the pine or who won’t even be on the team. Brown is definitely more of a project but I still like his potential more than a 6th round CB or RB with fumbling issues who may not even see the field. Wyatt Davis- I respect your opinion but most analysts disagree with you. 4,5,6- I know we would have lost out on Robinson, maybe we could have traded our 5th and 6th to get one of them? I realize we’ll never know so there’s no point in debating it. As I said, I really like Robinson and glad we got him but I just think the O line is so weak right now and with it being the make or break year for DJ (even according to Dave) and all the weapons we invested in for him, the O line HAS to be average at least and right now myself, most fans and most of the media all have serious doubts about that. Again, I really don’t want to get into a debate about it, just explaining my opinion and I also understand your side of it. I hope they pick up another FA somewhere and do a better job then they have in o line FA, although Flemming wasn’t too bad. Either that or hope Dave was right, but nothing over the past 4 years gives me confidence he is. Hopefully myself and the millions of other Giants fans who are skeptical and/or worried about this O line are wrong, I’ll be the first to admit it when the season is over. Reagardless, we shouldn’t even be in this position 4 years later, DG did this all ass backwards but I’ll be happy if they are at least average, hopefully somewhere around 10th overall would be real nice.
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Post by jmike on May 4, 2021 8:15:14 GMT -5
1-Well it seems the NFL teams that were able to have his doctors check it out were very concerned about it since he fell into the 7th round. 2-Brown isn't all that great at what he does well, and he doesn't move. I had virtually no interest in the Giants drafting him. 3-Wyatt Davis is very inconsistent. If he was there in the 6th, I may have taken a flyer on him. But his issues do not seem correctable to me. He has very bad balance, spends a lot of his time on the ground. When he can manage to stay upright he is among the best couple of guards in the class, but he will get his QBs killed several times if he plays any significant amount of time. 3-Kendrick Green, no comment didn't watch much of him. 4, 5 & 6 - All went before our 4th round pick and were not available. Robinson is the better prospect and we would lose on him, and a bit of a reach for both Meinerz and Cleveland. Brown I really like, but he is a tackle only prospect, so not really much help to the interior line. Smith still played two full seasons, 19 and 20, that says something. No, I’m not a doctor but I still think the risk of drafting him outweighs the benefit of a late round RB or 6th round CB who will probably be cut during training camp. As long as Brown stays healthy he would have had a very high chance of starting from Day 1. Even getting half a season out of him to help see what DJ is, would have been better than a guy riding the pine or who won’t even be on the team. Brown is definitely more of a project but I still like his potential more than a 6th round CB or RB with fumbling issues who may not even see the field. Wyatt Davis- I respect your opinion but most analysts disagree with you. 4,5,6- I know we would have lost out on Robinson, maybe we could have traded our 5th and 6th to get one of them? I realize we’ll never know so there’s no point in debating it. As I said, I really like Robinson and glad we got him but I just think the O line is so weak right now and with it being the make or break year for DJ (even according to Dave) and all the weapons we invested in for him, the O line HAS to be average at least and right now myself, most fans and most of the media all have serious doubts about that. Again, I really don’t want to get into a debate about it, just explaining my opinion and I also understand your side of it. I hope they pick up another FA somewhere and do a better job then they have in o line FA, although Flemming wasn’t too bad. Either that or hope Dave was right, but nothing over the past 4 years gives me confidence he is. Hopefully myself and the millions of other Giants fans who are skeptical and/or worried about this O line are wrong, I’ll be the first to admit it when the season is over. Reagardless, we shouldn’t even be in this position 4 years later, DG did this all ass backwards but I’ll be happy if they are at least average, hopefully somewhere around 10th overall would be real nice. Well the Giants took other players with some injury concerns, so Smith's issue must be significant enough to pass. Really hard to complain about that when we have no medical information nor the ability to make a determination on it. Brown is a turd, sorry, but watch him he is terrible. Maybe he develops but he wouldn't be an improvement on any of the guys currently on the roster in 2022. So if your concern is the OL in 2022, this would be a wasted pick. Personally I think any draft in which you don't take at least one player on the OL is a mistake, but I can't really make any individual complaints about who they took instead of the OL available. To pretend otherwise would require the presumption that I know better than the Giants about these players. The only pick I somewhat question is the Brightwell pick because I never heard of him, but my own ignorance of a player is not a valid reason to criticize the selection of him.
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Post by vinnie on Dec 15, 2021 17:53:40 GMT -5
Question? So, it is obvious by now that the Giants FO , which not only includes your arch nemesis Dave Gettleman making the decisions, but also the senior coaching staff, believe that they are better off continuing to develop the starting OL players they invested in last year, rather than replace them THIS year by drafting new ones. Is it your assertion that you are a better judge of talent then they? I mean, your demeanor shows that you are very angry that they are not doing what you think they should be doing. Sorry, 2 questions.....Is it better to allow a young line to gel, or to replace them when they don't instantly become great? Based on what Dave Gettleman has said he would do with this line and what he’s actually done with this line wince he got here, yes I would say I would have handled it better. Laugh all you want but any idiot could see how bad our O line was when he took over yet he still used a second overall pick on a RB with NO O line to run behind. That right there was a clear indication of how bad he is at evaluating O line talent. What was his solution? Set a new record for LT’s salary for a below average LT who never even made a pro bowl but instead, set season records for pressures allowed. And the excuse was “there was no one else” which I’ve already covered how ridiculous that excuse is. He then drafts Hernandez who has sone nothing but regress since his rookie year. I don’t care what the analysis said about Hernandez at the time, that’s why good GM’s find value and not just look at general consensus rankings, any of us could do that. So he failed there as well. The there’s the multiple mistakes like Oma, paying him 15 mil for 3 years and cutting him half way through the season. Halapio, Pulley, not moving Flowers to guard which a lot of people suggested (maybe that was the coach) but it’s been mistake after mistake after mistake. Now we roll into next season with two vets that have more than 1 year experience. Both have regressed and one was benched for a rookie while the other was in the top of the league for pressures allowed last time he played 2 years ago. If Solder isn’t the starter, then we will have 4 of 5 O lineman who it’s their second year and only one has 1st round talent but failed well short of expectations and Gates is good. Then we have Peart, no idea what we have there but he didn’t get a lot of playing time, even considering COVID, and Lemieux who gave up a league high 25 pressures and 10? sacks last year. Don’t forget we have a QB with no pocket presence who has also been under constant pressure since he became a starter and leagues the league in turnovers since 2019. Our defense could have used a little help but our O line needed it more. I would have been happy with just one plug and play guard which could have easily been found in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. Even most people on this site kept hoping and saying we would eventually draft one, but nope. Now we’re going into roll this season with the same players and keep our fingers crossed that they ALL improve even more than at the end of last season which was still well in the bottom 10 of the league. That’s insanity. If we had one good CB, one ok CB and no CB depth but just signed 2 well regarded O lineman in FA and had some O line depth, would it be smart to completely ignore the CB group and spend a few more picks on the O line? I don’t care that they just spent a few picks on the O line last year. As of now, Thomas as been the worst of the big 4 but he may be good. Lemieux was a 5th round pick and is playing like it, maybe even worse considering his pass blocking, Gates is good, Hernandez definitely hasn’t been 2nd round material and we have no idea about Peart but based on the past 3 years of DG’s “priority” I don’t have any faith until he gets out there and proves it. 2nd question) As I said, if we drafted at least one plug and play guard I would have had no problems and they still could have “gelled” but how much are they going to gel anyways from last year when half of them didn’t even play together (Peart, Solder, Hernandez)? The only ones who played together most of the season were Thomas, Lemieux and Gates and one of those is a complete liability. Let me ask you this? We haven’t had a decent O line in over a decade, and when Gettleman took over he said fixing the O line was his first priority which was ~4 years ago. As of last year, they were still bottom ten in the league. Is it your assertion that you trust they know what they’re doing? Would you keep taking your car back to the same mechanic for the same problem for 4 years after he keeps claiming to have fixed it or at some point are you going to be upset and go somewhere else? Lol, FBomb , I was looking for an old post of mine and came across this little gem. Thought you might get a chuckle out of it even though it’s actually sad.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 18, 2021 9:44:13 GMT -5
I wonder if it's because we drafted 3 last year OR if, like the Patriots who rarely have big name probowl type OLmen, they just use a plug and play theory, which for them is helped tremendously by a quick trigger and brilliant understanding of where to go by Tom Brady. I am not sure what Judges OL philosophy is but you cant compare having Brady for a QB because he is the ultimate outlier. Defenses have to worry about Brady more than any other player on the field. Not many teams have that luxury. DG kept talking about "value" in terms of the draft. When asked specifically about the OL he said the value just wasnt there. Maybe Judge agrees with that as well. It's pretty apparent DG has no instincts in seeing value in prospects at all.
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Post by GameTime on Dec 18, 2021 10:28:54 GMT -5
I am not sure what Judges OL philosophy is but you cant compare having Brady for a QB because he is the ultimate outlier. Defenses have to worry about Brady more than any other player on the field. Not many teams have that luxury. DG kept talking about "value" in terms of the draft. When asked specifically about the OL he said the value just wasnt there. Maybe Judge agrees with that as well. It's pretty apparent DG has no instincts in seeing value in prospects at all. neither does Judge I guess. They are all part of the draft process
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2022 15:46:29 GMT -5
We might have a choice of Slater vs Smith. And I'd be ALL IN with Slater Same Would be the ultimate shock as he hasn't been linked to us at all
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