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Post by Jomo on May 28, 2021 16:08:50 GMT -5
Optimism reigns supreme and I share the boundless optimism in this thread. Talk is cheap however and we need to play the games.
I'm ready to suit up.
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Post by TEM on May 28, 2021 17:05:49 GMT -5
I agree, it’s silly to lament Graham at this point here. The defense wasn't that good last year. To your point, it’s the talent that got better around here. Teams lose good coordinators of good defenses. That's how the process works. I certainly think it was a combo of better players, better coach and right system. I'm just not going to write us off as a loser team for when he moves on, because he will be moving on unless for some strange reason he is 100% content being the Assistant HC (which would be awesome).
I wish there was a stat out there to see how teams do after having a top tier O or D and losing their OC/DC.
Fun history discussion. We had the #1 D in 1990 with Bill Belichick here. Then he left and we were still pretty good for a few years. In 1993 we once again had the #1 D. 1993 was LTs last season in the NFL and he was playing with a rookie named Michael Strahan. Also on that D was Michael Brooks (All Pro in 1993), Jessie Armstead (rookie) and Keith Hamilton. The team had four pro bowlers that year, all four were on our 18th ranked Offense. Our #1 ranked defense didn't have a single Pro Bowler.
Interesting I'll do the stats . I should have them done by Monday.
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Post by Jomo on May 28, 2021 17:36:46 GMT -5
I certainly think it was a combo of better players, better coach and right system. I'm just not going to write us off as a loser team for when he moves on, because he will be moving on unless for some strange reason he is 100% content being the Assistant HC (which would be awesome).
I wish there was a stat out there to see how teams do after having a top tier O or D and losing their OC/DC.
Fun history discussion. We had the #1 D in 1990 with Bill Belichick here. Then he left and we were still pretty good for a few years. In 1993 we once again had the #1 D. 1993 was LTs last season in the NFL and he was playing with a rookie named Michael Strahan. Also on that D was Michael Brooks (All Pro in 1993), Jessie Armstead (rookie) and Keith Hamilton. The team had four pro bowlers that year, all four were on our 18th ranked Offense. Our #1 ranked defense didn't have a single Pro Bowler.
Interesting I do the stats . I should have them done by Monday. It will be interesting to see what that disruption delivers. Part of the answer has to do with who the team brings in as the replacement. Was he a promotion from within and the same system, a rising star from the outside with a different system etc etc. There are a lot of moving parts but the simple first cut analysis will be interesting.
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Post by Martin on May 28, 2021 19:03:17 GMT -5
Optimism reigns supreme and I share the boundless optimism in this thread. Talk is cheap however and we need to play the games. I'm ready to suit up. Okay suit up but have your significant other increase your insurance!
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Post by IrishMike on May 28, 2021 20:15:35 GMT -5
Interesting I do the stats . I should have them done by Monday. It will be interesting to see what that disruption delivers. Part of the answer has to do with who the team brings in as the replacement. Was he a promotion from within and the same system, a rising star from the outside with a different system etc etc. There are a lot of moving parts but the simple first cut analysis will be interesting. There are a ton of things to consider. If he does the stats I'd be interested just to see if there is any difference at all to start. After that we can start debating particulars. Like how we lost Spags and a HOF DE at the same time. There should be enough gray area to keep both sides of the argument going lol.
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Post by IrishMike on May 28, 2021 20:17:00 GMT -5
Interesting I do the stats . I should have them done by Monday. You have to define what "top tier" is and if the team is losing that OC/DC the year they were top tier or is it within a few years? I'd say the same year.
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Post by TEM on May 29, 2021 7:07:49 GMT -5
Interesting I do the stats . I should have them done by Monday. You have to define what "top tier" is and if the team is losing that OC/DC the year they were top tier or is it within a few years? I'd say the same year. My parameters will be: The cap era. Demarcation point will be winning record (9-7) (9-7 through 13-3) will have their own individual stats more wins than 13 ( there is not enough data) Do amount of wins have an affect on statistical relevance to losing a coordinator. Win and Point differential difference between year with OC/DC opposed to the subsequent year without them. What has the bigger impact on the team losing an OC ? , DC ?, Both? Neither Compare data to team that retained both Coordinators ( base line test)
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Post by Delicreep on May 29, 2021 7:15:25 GMT -5
Yeah, the defense should be good. Not historically great, but good. The only reason the defense should be a focal point of discussion this season is if they are bad, and that will be disappointing to say the least. 2021 for the Giants is all about Daniel Jones and the offensive line. If both are good, this team has super bowl potential. That's a big if though. But yes, I like what the Giants are doing with the defense. It feels like it was built for the modern era, so kudos to the front office for keeping up with the times. Right now...I like the direction. Let's see if it actually works.
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Post by IrishMike on May 29, 2021 13:20:40 GMT -5
You have to define what "top tier" is and if the team is losing that OC/DC the year they were top tier or is it within a few years? I'd say the same year. My parameters will be: The cap era. Demarcation point will be winning record (9-7) (9-7 through 13-3) will have their own individual stats more wins than 13 ( there is not enough data) Do amount of wins have an affect on statistical relevance to losing a coordinator. Win and Point differential difference between year with OC/DC opposed to the subsequent year without them. What has the bigger impact on the team losing an OC ? , DC ?, Both? Neither Compare data to team that retained both Coordinators ( base line test) I'd be more interested in knowing D/O ranking as opposed to W/L record. A lot goes into the ranking but so much more goes into WL records. It seems from your post you are taking any team losing a D/O coordinator and seeing how it effects their WL record. That data could be interesting in it's own right. Not where I was going with my post. I'm too lazy to mine that data myself though lol.
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Post by TEM on May 29, 2021 13:44:21 GMT -5
My parameters will be: The cap era. Demarcation point will be winning record (9-7) (9-7 through 13-3) will have their own individual stats more wins than 13 ( there is not enough data) Do amount of wins have an affect on statistical relevance to losing a coordinator. Win and Point differential difference between year with OC/DC opposed to the subsequent year without them. What has the bigger impact on the team losing an OC ? , DC ?, Both? Neither Compare data to team that retained both Coordinators ( base line test) I'd be more interested in knowing D/O ranking as opposed to W/L record. A lot goes into the ranking but so much more goes into WL records. It seems from your post you are taking any team losing a D/O coordinator and seeing how it effects their WL record. That data could be interesting in it's own right. Not where I was going with my post. I'm too lazy to mine that data myself though lol. There a inclination of opinion in ranking. It is very subjective . That is why I am going with measurable data to see if there is any discernable difference if a team loses its coordinators.
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Post by IrishMike on May 29, 2021 20:05:07 GMT -5
There a inclination of opinion in ranking. It is very subjective . That is why I am going with measurable data to see if there is any discernable difference if a team loses its coordinators. There is no opinion in ranking. Ranking is done either by yardage or scoring. I'm not talking about "Bob and Joes top ranked Defenses".
That's the hard data you can use. Obviously up to you though.
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Post by TEM on May 30, 2021 7:40:41 GMT -5
There a inclination of opinion in ranking. It is very subjective . That is why I am going with measurable data to see if there is any discernable difference if a team loses its coordinators. There is no opinion in ranking. Ranking is done either by yardage or scoring. I'm not talking about "Bob and Joes top ranked Defenses".
That's the hard data you can use. Obviously up to you though.
That is exactly what I am doing comparing yards for , yards against , points for, points against. So far the early results show no sign that losing coordinates has adverse effects on a team statically. But it is still a small sample size . In 94 San Fran won the SB . Lost both the DC and OC . In 95 they lost in the NFC championship game. But statically the 95 team was a better team , more wins, more points and yards for, and less points and yards against.
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Post by IrishMike on May 30, 2021 10:18:03 GMT -5
That is exactly what I am doing comparing yards for , yards against , points for, points against. So far the early results show no sign that losing coordinates has adverse effects on a team statically. But it is still a small sample size . In 94 San Fran won the SB . Lost both the DC and OC . In 95 they lost in the NFC championship game. But statically the 95 team was a better team , more wins, more points and yards for, and less points and yards against. Awesome. I look forward to more results. I wonder if the bigger contribution that OC/DC make are getting a scheme set and players schooled up and trained, as opposed to the actual calling of the defense on game day. Certainly an interesting though.
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Post by repeatchamps on Jun 1, 2021 12:50:09 GMT -5
Everyone downplaying the Giants chances to be a force in this division if not the team to beat is not paying any attention to what this defense is going to be able to bring week in, week out. The rest of the league and all the analysts throwing shade the Giants way are in for a rude awakening. This defense if healthy in my opinion will be top 3 without even blinking an eye.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 1, 2021 13:09:16 GMT -5
Everyone downplaying the Giants chances to be a force in this division if not the team to beat is not paying any attention to what this defense is going to be able to bring week in, week out. The rest of the league and all the analysts throwing shade the Giants way are in for a rude awakening. This defense if healthy in my opinion will be top 3 without even blinking an eye. Throw the ball,stop teams from throwing the ball... It's what modern NFL is all about Very good chance we have a top rated unit against the pass...and enough in the front 7 to be good vs the run..
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Post by GameTime on Jun 1, 2021 13:43:56 GMT -5
Everyone downplaying the Giants chances to be a force in this division if not the team to beat is not paying any attention to what this defense is going to be able to bring week in, week out. The rest of the league and all the analysts throwing shade the Giants way are in for a rude awakening. This defense if healthy in my opinion will be top 3 without even blinking an eye. the defense is not the reason the Giants are being "downpayed". Its the O that is the reason plain and simple
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Post by repeatchamps on Jun 1, 2021 14:09:40 GMT -5
Everyone downplaying the Giants chances to be a force in this division if not the team to beat is not paying any attention to what this defense is going to be able to bring week in, week out. The rest of the league and all the analysts throwing shade the Giants way are in for a rude awakening. This defense if healthy in my opinion will be top 3 without even blinking an eye. the defense is not the reason the Giants are being "downplayed". Its the O that is the reason plain and simple Imho, this year's Defense if healthy can win more games on their own this year than the entirety of last year's win total. This is even if all else from last season remains equal.
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Post by Nick6475 on Jun 1, 2021 14:31:32 GMT -5
the defense is not the reason the Giants are being "downplayed". Its the O that is the reason plain and simple Imho, this year's Defense if healthy can win more games on their own this year than the entirety of last year's win total. This is even if all else from last season remains equal. This reminded me of a game back in 1999 where the Giants won 17-13 against the Bucs. The Giants with Kent Graham leading the way had 100 yards of offense and only 4 first downs. The defense had two INTs for TDs to win the game.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 1, 2021 15:00:06 GMT -5
the defense is not the reason the Giants are being "downplayed". Its the O that is the reason plain and simple Imho, this year's Defense if healthy can win more games on their own this year than the entirety of last year's win total. This is even if all else from last season remains equal. Unfortunately you can't really win a championship this way or even win a playoff game ... Need both sides of the ball to be really good
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Post by repeatchamps on Jun 1, 2021 15:13:05 GMT -5
Imho, this year's Defense if healthy can win more games on their own this year than the entirety of last year's win total. This is even if all else from last season remains equal. Unfortunately you can't really win a championship this way or even win a playoff game ... Need both sides of the ball to be really good Obviously we need some improvement from the offense. Last year's output is just not going to cut it. However, I don't think they need all that much more when compared to last year than some people are thinking they need in order to be a very difficult team to beat.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 15:17:58 GMT -5
Unfortunately you can't really win a championship this way or even win a playoff game ... Need both sides of the ball to be really good Obviously we need some improvement from the offense. Last year's output is just not going to cut it. However, I don't think they need all that much more when compared to last year than some people are thinking they need in order to be a very difficult team to beat. Comparing last years defense and expecting the same results is crazy.. Each year brings different challenges so there is no way they will play against such bad offenses like they did last year giving fans the idea they were a better then reality..
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 1, 2021 15:20:36 GMT -5
Unfortunately you can't really win a championship this way or even win a playoff game ... Need both sides of the ball to be really good Obviously we need some improvement from the offense. Last year's output is just not going to cut it. However, I don't think they need all that much more when compared to last year than some people are thinking they need in order to be a very difficult team to beat. 9 of the last 11 super bowl champions had both top 10 offenses and top 10 defenses and 10 of tbe last 11 had a top to offense .. So yeah we do need this offense to be significantly better for the ultimate goal which is ring number 5 and nore.. 28 points a game,270 in the air and 130 on the ground will make this team championship caliber across the board
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Post by repeatchamps on Jun 1, 2021 15:31:35 GMT -5
Obviously we need some improvement from the offense. Last year's output is just not going to cut it. However, I don't think they need all that much more when compared to last year than some people are thinking they need in order to be a very difficult team to beat. Comparing last years defense and expecting the same results is crazy.. Each year brings different challenges so there is no way they will play against such bad offenses like they did last year giving fans the idea they were a better then reality.. Maybe but I am predicting that the defense will be even more improved over last year's squad. They literally have not a single weakness at any position and have more than solid depth. There is a perfect mixture of veterans and young players and an undeniably excellent defensive coordinator.
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Post by Nick6475 on Jun 1, 2021 15:34:09 GMT -5
Obviously we need some improvement from the offense. Last year's output is just not going to cut it. However, I don't think they need all that much more when compared to last year than some people are thinking they need in order to be a very difficult team to beat. 9 of the last 11 super bowl champions had both top 10 offenses and top 10 defenses and 10 of tbe last 11 had a top to offense .. So yeah we do need this offense to be significantly better for the ultimate goal which is ring number 5 and nore.. 28 points a game, 270 in the air and 130 on the ground will make this team championship caliber across the board I would hope so, only 4 teams since 2011 have accomplished those numbers, but none of them won the SB in that year.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 1, 2021 15:36:19 GMT -5
9 of the last 11 super bowl champions had both top 10 offenses and top 10 defenses and 10 of tbe last 11 had a top to offense .. So yeah we do need this offense to be significantly better for the ultimate goal which is ring number 5 and nore.. 28 points a game, 270 in the air and 130 on the ground will make this team championship caliber across the board I would hope so, only 4 teams since 2011 have accomplished those numbers, but none of them won the SB in that year. I'm guessing these teams had trash defenses and piss poor special teams
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Post by repeatchamps on Jun 1, 2021 15:36:35 GMT -5
9 of the last 11 super bowl champions had both top 10 offenses and top 10 defenses and 10 of tbe last 11 had a top to offense .. So yeah we do need this offense to be significantly better for the ultimate goal which is ring number 5 and nore.. 28 points a game, 270 in the air and 130 on the ground will make this team championship caliber across the board I would hope so, only 4 teams since 2011 have accomplished those numbers, but none of them won the SB in that year. Exactly. They put up those numbers and have a top 5 defense, Lombardi #5 better be a lock.
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Post by Nick6475 on Jun 1, 2021 15:48:26 GMT -5
I would hope so, only 4 teams since 2011 have accomplished those numbers, but none of them won the SB in that year. I'm guessing these teams had trash defenses and piss poor special teams 2019 Cowboys - #11 20.1 PPG Allowed 2018 Rams - #20 24.0 PPG Allowed 2012 Patriots - #9 20.7 PPG Allowed 2011 Saints - #13 21.2 PPG Allowed
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Post by GameTime on Jun 1, 2021 16:17:57 GMT -5
the defense is not the reason the Giants are being "downplayed". Its the O that is the reason plain and simple Imho, this year's Defense if healthy can win more games on their own this year than the entirety of last year's win total. This is even if all else from last season remains equal. the O needs to score more than 18 points per game. Relying on your defense to win "too much" without the O scoring doesn't cut it any more. If the NYGs want to be truly successful the offense has to pick up their end of the game significantly
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 16:30:42 GMT -5
Comparing last years defense and expecting the same results is crazy.. Each year brings different challenges so there is no way they will play against such bad offenses like they did last year giving fans the idea they were a better then reality.. Maybe but I am predicting that the defense will be even more improved over last year's squad. They literally have not a single weakness at any position and have more than solid depth. There is a perfect mixture of veterans and young players and an undeniably excellent defensive coordinator. I hope you're right! My concern is pass rushing and if the 1st and 2nd corners stay healthy
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Jun 1, 2021 21:07:15 GMT -5
Everyone downplaying the Giants chances to be a force in this division if not the team to beat is not paying any attention to what this defense is going to be able to bring week in, week out. The rest of the league and all the analysts throwing shade the Giants way are in for a rude awakening. This defense if healthy in my opinion will be top 3 without even blinking an eye. I also believe this defense could be dominating. Top 3 would take everything to go right and we stay healthy. I believe I heard we were a top 10 defense last year. When they rank us I think they go by yards and not points. I understood our defense averaged allowing 22 points per game last year. Our offense averaged 17 pts per game. This year we have potential to average less less than 20 pts per game imo. Next year were even better. We should have cap room to keep our starters if we wish plus 7 draft picks in first 4 rds. With 2 first rd picks. Next year our defense could be over powering good. Us Giant fans should be very happy watching this unit develop into a possible monster defense for the near future.
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