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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 8:43:33 GMT -5
If the line was bad line was part of the problem . Sheppard's Reception percentage would have more inline with Slayton's , Slayton averaged 50 yards per game. Sheppard was 54. Why Did Slayton regress and Sheppard didn't ? Im not saying Slayton had a good season and Shepards was clearly better but the numbers were skued in Shepards favor. For example, if Slayton had a 60% catch percentage, that might be about the same as 70% if you adjust for yards per catch. Plus, with the Giants running 200 curl routes a game, I would assume that Slayton had more safties attention since the majority of the Giants receives running short routes. You are a knowledgeable person, im sure the board would like to hear your take on that. I don't have access to the All 22s, just saw 3 of them last year. Yards per reception have nothing to do with drops. It is irrelevant in moving the chains. Receptions can, Drops never do. I do agree. Having one or two outside guys to have to contend with, will open up the middle of the field more.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 9:11:37 GMT -5
Im not saying Slayton had a good season and Shepards was clearly better but the numbers were skued in Shepards favor. For example, if Slayton had a 60% catch percentage, that might be about the same as 70% if you adjust for yards per catch. Plus, with the Giants running 200 curl routes a game, I would assume that Slayton had more safties attention since the majority of the Giants receives running short routes. You are a knowledgeable person, im sure the board would like to hear your take on that. I don't have access to the All 22s, just saw 3 of them last year. Yards per reception have nothing to do with drops. It is irrelevant in moving the chains. Receptions can, Drops never do. I do agree. Having one or two outside guys to have to contend with, will open up the middle of the field more. I could've sworn that you had a stat about the high percentage of tipped passes being on short passes.. That tells this pin chaser that catching a short pass is tougher than a longer pass to catch which doesn't look good for Slayton..
I have also been claiming that Slayton's playing time will be effected the most by this off season and unless there is an injury I just don't see him as contributing much..
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Post by McCherry on Jun 6, 2021 9:54:27 GMT -5
If the line was bad line was part of the problem . Sheppard's Reception percentage would have more inline with Slayton's , Slayton averaged 50 yards per game. Sheppard was 54. Why Did Slayton regress and Sheppard didn't ? Im not saying Slayton had a good season and Shepards was clearly better but the numbers were skued in Shepards favor. For example, if Slayton had a 60% catch percentage, that might be about the same as 70% if you adjust for yards per catch. Plus, with the Giants running 200 curl routes a game, I would assume that Slayton had more safties attention since the majority of the Giants receives running short routes. You are a knowledgeable person, im sure the board would like to hear your take on that. I don't have access to the All 22s, just saw 3 of them last year. I'm pretty sure catch percentage also doesn't account for overthrows, under throws, etc. Obviously, a 7-yd out is an easier catch to make than a 20-30 yd down the field throw with a CB and Deep safety to compete with. I'm not making excuses for Slayton. He did a bad job last year. It's also not easy to play the slot and Shep is one of the better ones in the league.
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 9:58:11 GMT -5
Im not saying Slayton had a good season and Shepards was clearly better but the numbers were skued in Shepards favor. For example, if Slayton had a 60% catch percentage, that might be about the same as 70% if you adjust for yards per catch. Plus, with the Giants running 200 curl routes a game, I would assume that Slayton had more safties attention since the majority of the Giants receives running short routes. You are a knowledgeable person, im sure the board would like to hear your take on that. I don't have access to the All 22s, just saw 3 of them last year. I'm pretty sure catch percentage also doesn't account for overthrows, under throws, etc. Obviously, a 7-yd out is an easier catch to make than a 20-30 yd down the field throw with a CB and Deep safety to compete with. I'm not making excuses for Slayton. He did a bad job last year. It's also not easy to play the slot and Shep is one of the better ones in the league. All true.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 6, 2021 10:11:44 GMT -5
In 2022 with his cap number he will be very expendable Easy to replace with a intact brain later in the draft...his skill set is now flowing throughout the college ranks...an easy savings release. Exactly A smart good smart route running WR with good hands can be had from rounds 3 to 6 and as of now we have 5 picks here Modern offenses require as many weapons on the field as possible that can score from anywhere on the field and frighten defenses these days If Toney shows out he eats into Shepard's playing time ans Shep is reduced to a 3rd down specialist..
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 12:14:56 GMT -5
Easy to replace with a intact brain later in the draft...his skill set is now flowing throughout the college ranks...an easy savings release. Exactly A smart good smart route running WR with good hands can be had from rounds 3 to 6 and as of now we have 5 picks here
Modern offenses require as many weapons on the field as possible that can score from anywhere on the field and frighten defenses these days If Toney shows out he eats into Shepard's playing time ans Shep is reduced to a 3rd down specialist.. That would be great if that were true With a 3rd round WR. A team has a 1 in 4 chance the WR will be successful. 25% 4th and 5th round picks are close in statistical success rates with 4th round is 12% .A 3 in 25 success rate. 5th round (Slayton) 16% A 4 in 25 success rate. A 6th round draft pick is 9% close to 1 in 10 All of them most likely not to be able to reproduce his production. It is not going to be as simple as that to replace him with a mid to late round pick. The 6.5 on his contract that is not dead cap. Is well worth his production.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 6, 2021 12:22:17 GMT -5
Exactly A smart good smart route running WR with good hands can be had from rounds 3 to 6 and as of now we have 5 picks here
Modern offenses require as many weapons on the field as possible that can score from anywhere on the field and frighten defenses these days If Toney shows out he eats into Shepard's playing time ans Shep is reduced to a 3rd down specialist.. That would be great if that were true With a 3rd round WR. A team has a 1 in 4 chance the WR will be successful. 25% 4th and 5th round picks are close in statistical success rates with 4th round is 12% .A 3 in 25 success rate. 5th round (Slayton) 16% A 4 in 25 success rate. A 6th round draft pick is 9% close to 1 in 10 It is not going to be as simple as that to replace him with a mid to late round pick. The 6.5 on his contract that is not dead cap. Is well worth his production. If Toney puts up.1 K from scrimmage as a rookie and Slayton breaks out opposite Golladay (I've always said he is a 70-75 catch 1100 yard complimentary piece)where is Shep going to get his snaps to justify keeping him? Unless we are in a legit super bowl window that kind of number is bad to have a reduced role in the offense as just a 3rd down chain moving specialist when we have cheaper TEs that could easily fill that role
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Post by McCherry on Jun 6, 2021 12:31:27 GMT -5
That would be great if that were true With a 3rd round WR. A team has a 1 in 4 chance the WR will be successful. 25% 4th and 5th round picks are close in statistical success rates with 4th round is 12% .A 3 in 25 success rate. 5th round (Slayton) 16% A 4 in 25 success rate. A 6th round draft pick is 9% close to 1 in 10 It is not going to be as simple as that to replace him with a mid to late round pick. The 6.5 on his contract that is not dead cap. Is well worth his production. If Toney puts up.1 K from scrimmage as a rookie and Slayton breaks out opposite Golladay (I've always said he is a 70-75 catch 1100 yard complimentary piece)where is Shep going to get his snaps to justify keeping him? Unless we are in a legit super bowl window that kind of number is bad to have a reduced role in the offense as just a 3rd down chain moving specialist when we have cheaper TEs that could easily fill that role Toney isn't a pure slot receiver, he’s more versatile and is going to be lined up all over the place. Even if he does have a good rookie season, I don't see how that affects Shepard's future. I see Toney more as a #2. If anything, Slayton is the one who’s could lose snaps.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 6, 2021 12:56:30 GMT -5
If Toney puts up.1 K from scrimmage as a rookie and Slayton breaks out opposite Golladay (I've always said he is a 70-75 catch 1100 yard complimentary piece)where is Shep going to get his snaps to justify keeping him? Unless we are in a legit super bowl window that kind of number is bad to have a reduced role in the offense as just a 3rd down chain moving specialist when we have cheaper TEs that could easily fill that role Toney isn't a pure slot receiver, he’s more versatile and is going to be lined up all over the place. Even if he does have a good rookie season, I don't see how that affects Shepard's future. I see Toney more as a #2. If anything, Slayton is the one who’s could lose snaps. If Slayton has a more than a bounce back season and plays to his potential he won't be losing snaps
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 13:04:04 GMT -5
That would be great if that were true With a 3rd round WR. A team has a 1 in 4 chance the WR will be successful. 25% 4th and 5th round picks are close in statistical success rates with 4th round is 12% .A 3 in 25 success rate. 5th round (Slayton) 16% A 4 in 25 success rate. A 6th round draft pick is 9% close to 1 in 10 It is not going to be as simple as that to replace him with a mid to late round pick. The 6.5 on his contract that is not dead cap. Is well worth his production. If Toney puts up.1 K from scrimmage as a rookie and Slayton breaks out opposite Golladay (I've always said he is a 70-75 catch 1100 yard complimentary piece)where is Shep going to get his snaps to justify keeping him? Unless we are in a legit super bowl window that kind of number is bad to have a reduced role in the offense as just a 3rd down chain moving specialist when we have cheaper TEs that could easily fill that role Why would you not want the player with the best ratio of balls thrown his way to ball caught on the field? If am the OC. How do I justify that action to the HC. I proved this already. 75% of the passes thrown are 0- 15 yards. So how do you as an OC or HC justify to the owner keeping a player that seems to thrive in that environment on the bench or suggest cutting him? Especially when he is getting paid a decent amount for what he does. There is 0 logic in the coaching staff to do that.
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 13:12:14 GMT -5
Yards per reception have nothing to do with drops. It is irrelevant in moving the chains. Receptions can, Drops never do. I do agree. Having one or two outside guys to have to contend with, will open up the middle of the field more. I could've sworn that you had a stat about the high percentage of tipped passes being on short passes.. That tells this pin chaser that catching a short pass is tougher than a longer pass to catch which doesn't look good for Slayton..
I have also been claiming that Slayton's playing time will be effected the most by this off season and unless there is an injury I just don't see him as contributing much..
I did. Let me try go explain. Sheppard's catch ratio is the best on the team. IMO: Now Shep is either in the right spot constantly (a pristine route) and in that catchable window. (probably the reason) Or he has the ability to adjusted to the QB being a bit off target. Either way he catches 7 out of 10 passes thrown to him. Logic dictates .You keep that player on the field as much as possible.
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 13:24:12 GMT -5
Toney isn't a pure slot receiver, he’s more versatile and is going to be lined up all over the place. Even if he does have a good rookie season, I don't see how that affects Shepard's future. I see Toney more as a #2. If anything, Slayton is the one who’s could lose snaps. If Slayton has a more than a bounce back season and plays to his potential he won't be losing snaps He will be lucky to get the snaps to see if he has the ability to bounce back. He is a 5th round pick. A 16% probibility. Statistics are not on his side. As I said if he does not have a Victor Cruz like pre-season. He is going to become an after thought in the game plan. A 00 formation WR.
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Post by fifthavephil on Jun 6, 2021 13:37:29 GMT -5
If Slayton has a more than a bounce back season and plays to his potential he won't be losing snaps He will be lucky to get the snaps to see if he has the ability to bounce back. He is a 5th round pick. A 16% probibility. Statistics are not on his side. As I said if he does not have a Victor Cruz like pre-season. He is going to become an after thought in the game plan. A 00 formation WR. Don’t forget Jones has chemistry with Shepard and Slayton. Even with OTA and summer camp, it will limit Golliday and Ross early chemistry, . Toney , half his plays will be behind the LOS .
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 6, 2021 13:50:49 GMT -5
If Slayton has a more than a bounce back season and plays to his potential he won't be losing snaps He will be lucky to get the snaps to see if he has the ability to bounce back. He is a 5th round pick. A 16% probibility. Statistics are not on his side. As I said if he does not have a Victor Cruz like pre-season. He is going to become an after thought in the game plan. A 00 formation WR. Again we will agree to disagree because you are pretty much wrong about Slayton And spitting out numbers you do twist them to push a narrative justice everone else twists numbers You want a band pitter patter bunch of chain movers only out there when hard evidence from coaching hires and players aquire says the staff wants an attack mode offense at all times out there
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Post by McCherry on Jun 6, 2021 13:54:00 GMT -5
Toney isn't a pure slot receiver, he’s more versatile and is going to be lined up all over the place. Even if he does have a good rookie season, I don't see how that affects Shepard's future. I see Toney more as a #2. If anything, Slayton is the one who’s could lose snaps. If Slayton has a more than a bounce back season and plays to his potential he won't be losing snaps Slayton needs to have an enormous bounce back. Arguably moreso than even Engram.
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 13:58:28 GMT -5
He will be lucky to get the snaps to see if he has the ability to bounce back. He is a 5th round pick. A 16% probibility. Statistics are not on his side. As I said if he does not have a Victor Cruz like pre-season. He is going to become an after thought in the game plan. A 00 formation WR. Don’t forget Jones has chemistry with Shepard and Slayton. Even with OTA and summer camp, it will limit Golliday and Ross early chemistry, . Toney , half his plays will be behind the LOS . I tend to agree, Bottom line Slayton can't be a 52% ball catcher and be on the field. He is not shoe in this year to be "one of the guys" He has competition that is serious threat to his pecking order. If Ross or Toney prove to be better options on the outside. He is in trouble in being in the WR rotation. There is no way he is taking the slot away from Sheppard. I want the kid to succeed as I do with all the Giants' players. At the same time. I am sick of losing. Popularity contests do not win football games. Having the best 11 on the field s much s possible can.
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 14:02:29 GMT -5
He will be lucky to get the snaps to see if he has the ability to bounce back. He is a 5th round pick. A 16% probibility. Statistics are not on his side. As I said if he does not have a Victor Cruz like pre-season. He is going to become an after thought in the game plan. A 00 formation WR. Again we will agree to disagree because you are pretty much wrong about Slayton And spitting out numbers you do twist them to push a narrative justice everone else twists numbers You want a band pitter patter bunch of chain movers only out there when hard evidence from coaching hires and players aquire says the staff wants an attack mode offense at all times out there Ok explain how you take the 67% off the field. And replace him with the 52% player? If is literally missing every other pass. That right there has 3 and out written all over it. And I will say this with no regrets . 3 and out is the only thing this offense has exceled at. So how is the goal not to move the chins and get into the red zone. To step up a score. All the games I watch and I watch 5 to 6 week . That is what teams do. What numbers am I twisting ? What numbers are wrong?
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Post by McCherry on Jun 6, 2021 14:07:32 GMT -5
If Slayton has a more than a bounce back season and plays to his potential he won't be losing snaps He will be lucky to get the snaps to see if he has the ability to bounce back. He is a 5th round pick. A 16% probibility. Statistics are not on his side. As I said if he does not have a Victor Cruz like pre-season. He is going to become an after thought in the game plan. A 00 formation WR. The good thing for Slayton is that Toney is even more unpolished as a route runner. I think it’s going to take some time for Toney to work his way into the rotation. This is a very raw player. I don't think where Slayton was drafted matters. His numbers after 2 years are at the top of his class. You don't get reps based on draft status.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 6, 2021 14:08:40 GMT -5
If Slayton has a more than a bounce back season and plays to his potential he won't be losing snaps Slayton needs to have an enormous bounce back. Arguably moreso than even Engram. Engram is highly expendable as of now And Slayton being 100% healthy,2nd year in the system and chemistry with Jones since 2019 rookie camp ...he should rebound ..
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 14:18:18 GMT -5
He will be lucky to get the snaps to see if he has the ability to bounce back. He is a 5th round pick. A 16% probibility. Statistics are not on his side. As I said if he does not have a Victor Cruz like pre-season. He is going to become an after thought in the game plan. A 00 formation WR. The good thing for Slayton is that Toney is even more unpolished as a route runner. I think it’s going to take some time for Toney to work his way into the rotation. This is a very raw player. I don't think where Slayton was drafted matters. His numbers after 2 years are at the top of his class. You don't get reps based on draft status. There is a reason he was passed up 170 times in the draft. He is a 5th round pick. If Toney is not ready to play week 1. We should have traded down farther. There are a lot of guys in the lower second round who also will not be ready week 1. They are making a lot less. This is not the same Giants team that drafted JPP and could hold the fort to give him a year. We are a 6 and 10 team .Every move the FO makes . Should be to fix that issue. Having your a 1 round pick not part of the WR rotation .Does not help that cause.
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Post by McCherry on Jun 6, 2021 14:19:21 GMT -5
Slayton needs to have an enormous bounce back. Arguably moreso than even Engram. Engram is highly expendable as of nowAnd Slayton being 100% healthy,2nd year in the system and chemistry with Jones since 2019 rookie camp ...he should rebound .. Fans have been saying this for years, I think we know it’s not happening now. Also, OTA reports said he was the most active player on the offense. In any case, that has no bearing no Slayton who now has a good bit of competition on his hands.
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 14:19:41 GMT -5
Slayton needs to have an enormous bounce back. Arguably moreso than even Engram. Engram is highly expendable as of now And Slayton being 100% healthy,2nd year in the system and chemistry with Jones since 2019 rookie camp ...he should rebound .. I hope you are right. I am skeptical he can giving the competition be is up against.
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Post by McCherry on Jun 6, 2021 14:22:57 GMT -5
The good thing for Slayton is that Toney is even more unpolished as a route runner. I think it’s going to take some time for Toney to work his way into the rotation. This is a very raw player. I don't think where Slayton was drafted matters. His numbers after 2 years are at the top of his class. You don't get reps based on draft status. There is a reason he was passed up 170 times in the draft. He is a 5th round pick. If Toney is not ready to play week 1. We should have traded down farther. There are a lot of guys in the lower second round who also will not be ready week 1. They are making a lot less. This is not the same Giants team that drafted JPP and could hold the fort to give him a year. We are a 6 and 10 team .Every move the FO makes . Should be to fix that issue. Having your a 1 round pick not part of the WR rotation .Does not help that cause. Teams passed up a lot of good receivers in recent years, Metcalf, AJ Brown. Hell, how many teams passed up Victor Cruz? Toney doesn't need to be a full-time player by week 1. That's not why we drafted him.
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 14:26:29 GMT -5
There is a reason he was passed up 170 times in the draft. He is a 5th round pick. If Toney is not ready to play week 1. We should have traded down farther. There are a lot of guys in the lower second round who also will not be ready week 1. They are making a lot less. This is not the same Giants team that drafted JPP and could hold the fort to give him a year. We are a 6 and 10 team .Every move the FO makes . Should be to fix that issue. Having your a 1 round pick not part of the WR rotation .Does not help that cause. Teams passed up a lot of good receivers in recent years, Metcalf, AJ Brown. Hell, how many teams passed up Victor Cruz? Toney doesn't need to be a full-time player by week 1. That's not why we drafted him. I disagree. This is where GL is correct. He can catch the ball and take it to the house from any point on the field. Breaking tackles in doing so. On passing downs he absolutely should be on the field as much as possible. He will be part of the rotation on week 1 I have no doubt in that. We replaced Tate with a more versatile younger version.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 6, 2021 14:33:05 GMT -5
Teams passed up a lot of good receivers in recent years, Metcalf, AJ Brown. Hell, how many teams passed up Victor Cruz? Toney doesn't need to be a full-time player by week 1. That's not why we drafted him. I disagree. This is where GL is correct. He can catch the ball and take it to the house from any point on the field. Breaking tackles in doing so. On passing downs he absolutely should be on the field as much as possible. He will be part of the rotation on week 1 I have no doubt. We replaced Tate with a more versatile younger version. And if we had taken AJ Brown instead of Baker We would have a dirt cheap dynamic fleet of playmakers and would not have had to spend on Golladay...we bring back Tomlinson instead
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 14:43:46 GMT -5
I disagree. This is where GL is correct. He can catch the ball and take it to the house from any point on the field. Breaking tackles in doing so. On passing downs he absolutely should be on the field as much as possible. He will be part of the rotation on week 1 I have no doubt. We replaced Tate with a more versatile younger version. And if we had taken AJ Brown instead of Baker We would have a dirt cheap dynamic fleet of playmakers and would not have had to spend on Golladay...we bring back Tomlinson instead Unfortunately history did not unfold in that way
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Post by McCherry on Jun 6, 2021 14:52:28 GMT -5
Teams passed up a lot of good receivers in recent years, Metcalf, AJ Brown. Hell, how many teams passed up Victor Cruz? Toney doesn't need to be a full-time player by week 1. That's not why we drafted him. I disagree. This is where GL is correct. He can catch the ball and take it to the house from any point on the field. Breaking tackles in doing so. On passing downs he absolutely should be on the field as much as possible. He will be part of the rotation on week 1 I have no doubt in that. We replaced Tate with a more versatile younger version. I agree he'll get in the lineup as long as he stays healthy, he won't be a featured player by week 1. And that's not a reflection of where he was drafted, he’s just a raw player with a lot to prove. This isn't Waddle or Chase, nobody was claiming Toney was an NFL ready prospect.
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 15:06:34 GMT -5
I disagree. This is where GL is correct. He can catch the ball and take it to the house from any point on the field. Breaking tackles in doing so. On passing downs he absolutely should be on the field as much as possible. He will be part of the rotation on week 1 I have no doubt in that. We replaced Tate with a more versatile younger version. I agree he'll get in the lineup as long as he stays healthy, he won't be a featured player by week 1. And that's not a reflection of where he was drafted, he’s just a raw player with a lot to prove. This isn't Waddle or Chase, nobody was claiming Toney was an NFL ready prospect. I think Golliday is the only one set as an outside threat. Maybe Ross. The rest are going to change from the outside to the inside. I can agree he will not be ln the field on most running downs . Between our RBs ,TEs, and WRs. We are not going to have any issues with lack of personell to run the offensive configurations.
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Post by TEM on Jun 6, 2021 15:28:25 GMT -5
touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/2021-nfl-draft-stats-that-matter-trevor-lawrence-zach-wilson-trey-lance/?utm_source=smg&utm_medium=fishburne&utm_content=recirc-most-popularAs a numbers guy I love this stuff. The short pass has been a big part of the Giants’ offense over the last couple years, often to a reductive degree. On quick passes last season — passes in which the quarterback took zero or one step after the snap — Daniel Jones completed 114 of 172 attempts for 1,073 yards, 708 air yards, four touchdowns, and three interceptions. Not bad from a yardage standpoint, but Jones didn’t get much done in the touchdown department. Only Josh Allen, Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Russell Wilson had more zero- to one-step dropbacks than Jones’s 183, and they had 14, 15, 12, and eight touchdowns, respectively.Perhaps one reason the Giants selected Florida receiver Kadarius Toney with the 20th overall pick is Toney’s ability to get things done off quick passes. Last season, when targeted on passes from zero- to one-step dropbacks, Toney caught 10 passes on 15 targets for 146 air yards, 69 air yards, and three touchdowns. Perhaps Toney can open up that part of the Giants’ passing game with more opportunitiesI did not know Jones was so efficient with no dropback,
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Post by GameTime on Jun 6, 2021 17:10:10 GMT -5
touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/2021-nfl-draft-stats-that-matter-trevor-lawrence-zach-wilson-trey-lance/?utm_source=smg&utm_medium=fishburne&utm_content=recirc-most-popularAs a numbers guy I love this stuff. The short pass has been a big part of the Giants’ offense over the last couple years, often to a reductive degree. On quick passes last season — passes in which the quarterback took zero or one step after the snap — Daniel Jones completed 114 of 172 attempts for 1,073 yards, 708 air yards, four touchdowns, and three interceptions. Not bad from a yardage standpoint, but Jones didn’t get much done in the touchdown department. Only Josh Allen, Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and Russell Wilson had more zero- to one-step dropbacks than Jones’s 183, and they had 14, 15, 12, and eight touchdowns, respectively.Perhaps one reason the Giants selected Florida receiver Kadarius Toney with the 20th overall pick is Toney’s ability to get things done off quick passes. Last season, when targeted on passes from zero- to one-step dropbacks, Toney caught 10 passes on 15 targets for 146 air yards, 69 air yards, and three touchdowns. Perhaps Toney can open up that part of the Giants’ passing game with more opportunitiesI did not know Jones was so efficient with no dropback, one read and go.
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