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Post by moecoastie on Sept 23, 2021 18:04:34 GMT -5
"positional value" is an over-used term and it varies from person to person.
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Post by Kruunch on Sept 23, 2021 18:10:46 GMT -5
Seeing a shrink is for quitters. A sane man can turn insane in this world. Also, it much more fun being nuts.. A joke. It was a joke. But seriously, how much bellyaching can one fan base do on the same topic? It’s 4 years. Nothing new brought to the table. I love pizza. I don’t want to eat it everyday for 4 years. The best part is most of the people who do all of the he complaining wanted Darnold. The guy who was seeing ghosts in the secondary. No need to explain. I knew it was a joke before you thought of it. Sam Darnold is quietly having a good season. Being traded away from the black hole gave him a new outlook on life. No longer is he under the gun of the NY market, and playing for an organization that didn’t know up from down.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 23, 2021 18:12:04 GMT -5
Meh....it doesn't really. People just like to think it does. GMs make bad picks, no single pick represents anything. What shows the ineptitude of our GM is there has yet to be any substantive improvement in the team's performance since he was hired. Most GM’s make bad picks, not with the second overall pick unless it’s a QB. What’s the most appalling is the lack of understanding for positional value, a RUNNING BACK with the second overall pick (and no O line to boot). He should have been fired on the spot. Barkely missed last year and yes for me a trade was better, but don't get it twisted Barkely was still either #1 or #2 talent in that draft and his first 2 years he has performed to that even with the injury, sometimes guys are complete busts for the team that drafted them #1 or #2 Barkely out performed every one drafted his rookie year was Still 1400 combined yards 7 TDs his second year and had an ACL last year. all I'm saying it's not like the Giants drafted josh rosen or Sam Darnold.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 23, 2021 18:14:30 GMT -5
"positional value" is an over-used term and it varies from person to person. Barkely by most draft folks and scouts was and still is considered a multi faceted weapon from the backfield and he does open things up for the offense he is not just a running back.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 23, 2021 18:15:13 GMT -5
A joke. It was a joke. But seriously, how much bellyaching can one fan base do on the same topic? It’s 4 years. Nothing new brought to the table. I love pizza. I don’t want to eat it everyday for 4 years. The best part is most of the people who do all of the he complaining wanted Darnold. The guy who was seeing ghosts in the secondary. No need to explain. I knew it was a joke before you thought of it. Sam Darnold is quietly having a good season. Being traded away from the black hole gave him a new outlook on life. No longer is he under the gun of the NY market, and playing for an organization that didn’t know up from down. Still he was a bust for the Jets.
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Post by McCherry on Sept 23, 2021 18:26:45 GMT -5
No need to explain. I knew it was a joke before you thought of it. Sam Darnold is quietly having a good season. Being traded away from the black hole gave him a new outlook on life. No longer is he under the gun of the NY market, and playing for an organization that didn’t know up from down. Still he was a bust for the Jets. Or, the Jets were a bust for him. Darnold showed some flashes. You can't hold it against him that he was coached by one of the biggest idiots in football history. Most Jets fans I know wanted to keep him.
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Post by Zimonami on Sept 23, 2021 18:26:57 GMT -5
The entire NY city Tri-State area rocked the Richter scale to 9.0 with laughter and happiness when the Saints made their pick. I don't know anyone who didn't want LT at the time. Do you know that in the 2nd round the Saints selected HOF LB Ricky Jackson? Imagine if they picked both? LT changed how I watched the game, keying on him at the snap, rather than the QB, Jackson was great in a time when NO was not, so TV rarely showed their games, But in the games against us and the few other times you'd see a NO game, Jackson was like Taylor... you had to watch him because he was always going to be around the ball. Even with Jackson AND Taylor I don't know if they would have won. As I recall, the other 2 Saint LB's were damned good... but the rest of the team, Archie Manning excepted, was never good enough. I'm sure LT was happy he wasn't going to the Aint's.
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Post by Kruunch on Sept 23, 2021 18:34:33 GMT -5
Still he was a bust for the Jets. Or, the Jets were a bust for him. Darnold showed some flashes. You can't hold it against him that he was coached by one of the biggest idiots in football history. Most Jets fans I know wanted to keep him. Adam Gates. He had the ego of Vince Lombardi, and the people skills of Howard Stern. Joe Montana would of had issues playing under that moron.
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Post by moecoastie on Sept 23, 2021 19:03:31 GMT -5
"positional value" is an over-used term and it varies from person to person. Barkely by most draft folks and scouts was and still is considered a multi faceted weapon from the backfield and he does open things up for the offense he is not just a running back. With this fan base, there will always be doubts until he helps us win a playoff game. Until then, its free game for both sides. For the most part I just sit back and watch the gaslighting. There was a time I would fact check but after a little while you figure out people over-generalize or straight make stuff up. It becomes an endless task and ruins the enjoyment of the boards. To play devils advocate, I dont see anything really special with SBs receiving ability. After the catch, yes....but straight being a WR out of the backfield, I dont see special. Im a HUGE SB fan since he broke that run vs SDSU during his freshman year in college but Ive never seen him as a RB with WR skills. More of a RB with homerun ability after the catch. If you value explosive plays, you understand more what SB brings to the table. If you understand the correlation between explosive plays and scoring TDs, then you understand why it is important for SB to get back to pre-injury form. The sooner, the better. Even the most stubborn positional value believer cannot deny SB is explosive. Just a tip to some board members..."positional value" term is so last year. The new trendy term is "explosive plays."
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Post by vinnie on Sept 23, 2021 19:09:23 GMT -5
Did you miss the part where I said positional value? Now if you can condense that list to just RB’s in the 21st century and tell me how those teams fared with their RB in the Super Bowl, or even playoffs. I’m actually being generous extending it to the 21st century since the NFL didn’t become a more predominant passing league until much more recently. You would also have to break down each team at the time and find their biggest needs, RB was clearly one of the last on the list for us but thanks for the research. Looking at the list most of those players did not consistently help their teams become a playoff team or superbowl contender. They are picking at 2 because they are bad teams. One player isn't going to make a difference there needs to be a systematic changes. Good teams don't need to pick at the top of the draft they know how to coach talent. I’m aware of that, so when you think of most teams that are that bad, where would you rank a RB in terms of need for a team that is rebuilding and has several positions to fill, especially O line?
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Post by vinnie on Sept 23, 2021 19:12:35 GMT -5
When he made that pick I said he just set this franchise back a year or two, if not more. That’s not hindsight and the pick is still having effects on the team today thus making it still very relevant. I’ll be more than happy to use other examples though just to appease you, although none were as critical as that. Yes. All of this might be true. But at some point you’ve got to move on. I can’t imagine anybody hasn’t said their piece about it 50 different ways already. It was 4 years ago. The horse is dead. . Maybe if you take it up with your shrink? Or my shrink? Because this is beyond. So why do the DG supporters still bring up Jerry Reese and how his picks, or lack thereof, allegedly made Dave’s job that much harder and constantly use that as an excuse whereas others can’t talk about Dave’s own picks that caused this team to be where it is because it was 4 years ago. Typical hypocrisy at its finest.
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Post by vinnie on Sept 23, 2021 19:13:17 GMT -5
Slater got rookie of the week in his first NFL game by causing Young to have the worst game of his career, but hey, we got an extra pick next year to replace the Pro Bowl OT we could have had and a WR who has two catches for negative two yards. Can’t wait to see how many more non impact players DG can draft with that extra first round pick. Extra 3 picks True, forget about that extra pick for him to waste.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 23, 2021 19:14:39 GMT -5
Still he was a bust for the Jets. Or, the Jets were a bust for him. Darnold showed some flashes. You can't hold it against him that he was coached by one of the biggest idiots in football history. Most Jets fans I know wanted to keep him. Agree but he was still a bust for them same with Rosen just how it is if you get an explosive player in the top 5 or top 10 you should not complain.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 23, 2021 19:15:20 GMT -5
True, forget about that extra pick for him to waste. Vinchenzo is on fire .
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Post by vinnie on Sept 23, 2021 19:16:40 GMT -5
Most GM’s make bad picks, not with the second overall pick unless it’s a QB. What’s the most appalling is the lack of understanding for positional value, a RUNNING BACK with the second overall pick (and no O line to boot). He should have been fired on the spot. Barkely missed last year and yes for me a trade was better, but don't get it twisted Barkely was still either #1 or #2 talent in that draft and his first 2 years he has performed to that even with the injury, sometimes guys are complete busts for the team that drafted them #1 or #2 Barkely out performed every one drafted his rookie year was Still 1400 combined yards 7 TDs his second year and had an ACL last year. all I'm saying it's not like the Giants drafted josh rosen or Sam Darnold. That’s not the point, the positional value of a RB is very low. I would rather have a perennial pro bowler guard for years to come than a pro bowl RB. A good line effects the entire team (QB, WR’s, RB, TE, etc) whereas a RB doesn’t have near the impact. It’s also been proven time and time again that a good O line can make even average RB’s look great and RB’s can be found deep in the draft.
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Post by McCherry on Sept 23, 2021 19:19:51 GMT -5
Or, the Jets were a bust for him. Darnold showed some flashes. You can't hold it against him that he was coached by one of the biggest idiots in football history. Most Jets fans I know wanted to keep him. Agree but he was still a bust for them same with Rosen just how it is if you get an explosive player in the top 5 or top 10 you should not complain. Well, not the same as Rosen who was bounced after one awful season.
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Post by vinnie on Sept 23, 2021 19:21:18 GMT -5
True, forget about that extra pick for him to waste. Vinchenzo is on fire . Lol, this season is already taking a toll.
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Post by bluebuddha on Sept 23, 2021 19:34:17 GMT -5
Looking at the list most of those players did not consistently help their teams become a playoff team or superbowl contender. They are picking at 2 because they are bad teams. One player isn't going to make a difference there needs to be a systematic changes. Good teams don't need to pick at the top of the draft they know how to coach talent. I’m aware of that, so when you think of most teams that are that bad, where would you rank a RB in terms of need for a team that is rebuilding and has several positions to fill, especially O line? The list says it doesn't matter. Just start drafting talent. Chase Young, Suh and Nick Bosa haven't made their teams a contender. Luke Joeckel, Greg Robinson, Jason Smith and Chris Long hasn't made their team contenders.
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Post by moecoastie on Sept 23, 2021 19:38:25 GMT -5
Barkely missed last year and yes for me a trade was better, but don't get it twisted Barkely was still either #1 or #2 talent in that draft and his first 2 years he has performed to that even with the injury, sometimes guys are complete busts for the team that drafted them #1 or #2 Barkely out performed every one drafted his rookie year was Still 1400 combined yards 7 TDs his second year and had an ACL last year. all I'm saying it's not like the Giants drafted josh rosen or Sam Darnold. That’s not the point, the positional value of a RB is very low. I would rather have a perennial pro bowler guard for years to come than a pro bowl RB. A good line effects the entire team (QB, WR’s, RB, TE, etc) whereas a RB doesn’t have near the impact. It’s also been proven time and time again that a good O line can make even average RB’s look great and RB’s can be found deep in the draft. Bleh, positional value. You realize that a LG is probably the least valuable OLineman out of the 5? Yes, a good line effects the offense a great deal but last I checked, a LG is ultra dependant on the ability of the 4 other guys on the line. So youre saying drafting a LG (least valuable player of the 5) when the team didnt even need a LG in '18 (we needed a tackle). It wasnt til 21 that we were even worried about the guard position. Sorry...no thank you. I dont give a rip if he's all everything...he's still a LG. The least athletic position on the football field. Doesnt sound like a great value to me. But like I said " positional value" is an opinion that varies from person to person.
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Post by Roswell on Sept 23, 2021 19:41:12 GMT -5
Yes. All of this might be true. But at some point you’ve got to move on. I can’t imagine anybody hasn’t said their piece about it 50 different ways already. It was 4 years ago. The horse is dead. . Maybe if you take it up with your shrink? Or my shrink? Because this is beyond. So why do the DG supporters still bring up Jerry Reese and how his picks, or lack thereof, allegedly made Dave’s job that much harder and constantly use that as an excuse whereas others can’t talk about Dave’s own picks that caused this team to be where it is because it was 4 years ago. Typical hypocrisy at its finest. I don’t have an answer for you but this is all day every day. It’s like watching a security camera of an empty hallway. We all get it. A lot of people hated the pick 4 years ago and still hate it today. But at some point the posts about the pick get ridiculous. Besides, there’s so much else to complain about lol. A lot of people were all over Thomas for playing a poor half in a preseason game when he was sick. He was a bust 3 weeks ago. Now how’s he doing? It’s just everything here is so overreacted to. Way too much negativity.
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Post by vinnie on Sept 23, 2021 19:44:35 GMT -5
I’m aware of that, so when you think of most teams that are that bad, where would you rank a RB in terms of need for a team that is rebuilding and has several positions to fill, especially O line? The list says it doesn't matter. Just start drafting talent. Chase Young, Suh and Nick Bosa haven't made their teams a contender. Luke Joeckel, Greg Robinson, Jason Smith and Chris Long hasn't made their team contenders. I couldn’t care less about the list. What’s more difficult to find and which position has a greater overall impact?
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 23, 2021 19:48:15 GMT -5
Lol, this season is already taking a toll. No shit you are young as you get older it gets easier except with the division.
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Post by McCherry on Sept 23, 2021 19:48:18 GMT -5
That’s not the point, the positional value of a RB is very low. I would rather have a perennial pro bowler guard for years to come than a pro bowl RB. A good line effects the entire team (QB, WR’s, RB, TE, etc) whereas a RB doesn’t have near the impact. It’s also been proven time and time again that a good O line can make even average RB’s look great and RB’s can be found deep in the draft. Bleh, positional value. You realize that a LG is probably the least valuable OLineman out of the 5? Yes, a good line effects the offense a great deal but last I checked, a LG is ultra dependant on the ability of the 4 other guys on the line. So youre saying drafting a LG (least valuable player of the 5) when the team didnt even need a LG in '18 (we needed a tackle). It wasnt til 21 that we were even worried about the guard position. Sorry...no thank you. I dont give a rip if he's all everything...he's still a LG. The least athletic position on the football field. Doesnt sound like a great value to me. But like I said " positional value" is an opinion that varies from person to person. And had we drafted Nelson second, we likely would've lost more games. And as you said, one great Guard on a line of four other bad players does nothing for your team. There's no question that we won games directly because of Barkley. There are reasons why nobody drafts guards second overall.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 23, 2021 19:50:41 GMT -5
Agree but he was still a bust for them same with Rosen just how it is if you get an explosive player in the top 5 or top 10 you should not complain. Well, not the same as Rosen who was bounced after one awful season. Darnold a change of scenery and year 4 he has seen a lot of ball now, he looks comfortable out there and in command sure coaching has helped a lot to.
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Post by vinnie on Sept 23, 2021 19:52:13 GMT -5
That’s not the point, the positional value of a RB is very low. I would rather have a perennial pro bowler guard for years to come than a pro bowl RB. A good line effects the entire team (QB, WR’s, RB, TE, etc) whereas a RB doesn’t have near the impact. It’s also been proven time and time again that a good O line can make even average RB’s look great and RB’s can be found deep in the draft. Bleh, positional value. You realize that a LG is probably the least valuable OLineman out of the 5? Yes, a good line effects the offense a great deal but last I checked, a LG is ultra dependant on the ability of the 4 other guys on the line. So youre saying drafting a LG (least valuable player of the 5) when the team didnt even need a LG in '18 (we needed a tackle). It wasnt til 21 that we were even worried about the guard position. Sorry...no thank you. I dont give a rip if he's all everything...he's still a LG. The least athletic position on the football field. Doesnt sound like a great value to me. But like I said " positional value" is an opinion that varies from person to person. I couldn’t care less if he’s the least important of the 5 O linemen or not, he’s still more important than a RB. I would much rather have a healthy Nelson than a healthy Barkley. Give me pro bowl O linemen (any position) over a pro bowl RB all day. We did need guards otherwise they wouldn’t have drafted Hernandez. I don’t see how you can minimize the guard position after seeing how much below average guards have had an impact on destroying our passing game and QB’s development just over the past 4 years. (See Lemieux as an example).
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Post by moecoastie on Sept 23, 2021 20:02:17 GMT -5
Bleh, positional value. You realize that a LG is probably the least valuable OLineman out of the 5? Yes, a good line effects the offense a great deal but last I checked, a LG is ultra dependant on the ability of the 4 other guys on the line. So youre saying drafting a LG (least valuable player of the 5) when the team didnt even need a LG in '18 (we needed a tackle). It wasnt til 21 that we were even worried about the guard position. Sorry...no thank you. I dont give a rip if he's all everything...he's still a LG. The least athletic position on the football field. Doesnt sound like a great value to me. But like I said " positional value" is an opinion that varies from person to person. I couldn’t care less if he’s the least important of the 5 O linemen or not, he’s still more important than a RB. I would much rather have a healthy Nelson than a healthy Barkley. Give me pro bowl O linemen (any position) over a pro bowl RB all day. We did need guards otherwise they wouldn’t have drafted Hernandez. I don’t see how you can minimize the guard position after seeing how much below average guards have had an impact on destroying our passing game and QB’s development just over the past 4 years. (See Lemieux as an example). How could you forget the 5 years before SB when we couldnt find a RB to save our lives? Im sorry I disagree that the least important OLineman from a position group of 5 is more valuable than a RB that can provide explosive plays even with a bad line. There were a lot of issues with the offense the last few years. More than just a guard...LOL. you better get hip to the new trends...."positional value" is a generic term with too much variance. The new hip lingo is "explosive plays" Better get on this trend before its too late. We needed a right guard. We ended up moving Omameh out of position to accommodate Hernandez. Ironic he ends up there eventually. Yeah, Omameh sucked at RG but ended up picking a decent fill in for the rest of the year. DG did Omameh a solid by releasing him when his transition to RG went side-ways. Allowed him to play his natural position with other teams... which he sucked at also. Do you not remember any of this happening?
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Post by vinnie on Sept 23, 2021 20:04:22 GMT -5
Bleh, positional value. You realize that a LG is probably the least valuable OLineman out of the 5? Yes, a good line effects the offense a great deal but last I checked, a LG is ultra dependant on the ability of the 4 other guys on the line. So youre saying drafting a LG (least valuable player of the 5) when the team didnt even need a LG in '18 (we needed a tackle). It wasnt til 21 that we were even worried about the guard position. Sorry...no thank you. I dont give a rip if he's all everything...he's still a LG. The least athletic position on the football field. Doesnt sound like a great value to me. But like I said " positional value" is an opinion that varies from person to person. And had we drafted Nelson second, we likely would've lost more games. And as you said, one great Guard on a line of four other bad players does nothing for your team. There's no question that we won games directly because of Barkley. There are reasons why nobody drafts guards second overall. And? We weren’t going to the playoffs, Ray Charles could see that. You must of drinking some of that DG Kool Aid when he said “you can rebuild and win at the same time”. Yeah, win 6 games? Great job Dave. When your team is in a clear rebuild mode, you draft for the future not to win now. Which would we be better off with now (Thomas, Nelson, Gates, Trey Smith, Slater ) or Barkley, Toney, Rodarius Williams and an extra first we’ll have to use on a tackle anyways? Hmmmmm…tough decision. That would be a top 5 O line, if not the best in the league, that any RB would look like an All Pro running behind. Jones would have time to stop and read the paper if he wanted to but instead we’re still a hot mess that will be lucky to crack the top 20-25 O lines this year.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Sept 23, 2021 20:06:43 GMT -5
Barkely missed last year and yes for me a trade was better, but don't get it twisted Barkely was still either #1 or #2 talent in that draft and his first 2 years he has performed to that even with the injury, sometimes guys are complete busts for the team that drafted them #1 or #2 Barkely out performed every one drafted his rookie year was Still 1400 combined yards 7 TDs his second year and had an ACL last year. all I'm saying it's not like the Giants drafted josh rosen or Sam Darnold. That’s not the point, the positional value of a RB is very low. I would rather have a perennial pro bowler guard for years to come than a pro bowl RB. A good line effects the entire team (QB, WR’s, RB, TE, etc) whereas a RB doesn’t have near the impact. It’s also been proven time and time again that a good O line can make even average RB’s look great and RB’s can be found deep in the draft. Production is production wether it comes from an RB / WR/ or TE positional value counts for guys who do less Guys like McCaffery Kamara Barkely Cooke will slice a team up catching and running it. The point is they could have gotten a bust or a decent player at least they have a dynamic player that hopefully will be that again sooner then later.
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Post by Rangers13 on Sept 23, 2021 20:10:37 GMT -5
I couldn’t care less if he’s the least important of the 5 O linemen or not, he’s still more important than a RB. I would much rather have a healthy Nelson than a healthy Barkley. Give me pro bowl O linemen (any position) over a pro bowl RB all day. We did need guards otherwise they wouldn’t have drafted Hernandez. I don’t see how you can minimize the guard position after seeing how much below average guards have had an impact on destroying our passing game and QB’s development just over the past 4 years. (See Lemieux as an example). How could you forget the 5 years before SB when we couldnt find a RB to save our lives? Im sorry I disagree that the least important OLineman from a position group of 5 is more valuable than a RB that can provide explosive plays even with a bad line. When?
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Post by moecoastie on Sept 23, 2021 20:12:21 GMT -5
How could you forget the 5 years before SB when we couldnt find a RB to save our lives? Im sorry I disagree that the least important OLineman from a position group of 5 is more valuable than a RB that can provide explosive plays even with a bad line. When? lol....who?
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