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Post by scoostraw on Oct 21, 2021 16:30:11 GMT -5
My issue is that he doesn't set his feet in the right position and needs to stutter step with a bang on the ball before he releases it. That's making everything just a bit slower which is big at this level.. Again -> coaching.
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Post by imgrate on Oct 21, 2021 16:47:18 GMT -5
this current era of lousiness has taught me how much one bad thing affects another, and also how difficult it is to tell what you have in one area when another area is totally bereft, thus crippling all around it. the attributes of a bad team. if we were solid all over the field, we could endure a deficiency here and there (well not really, to a point) but we cant afford to be anything less than the absolute best with all we have, and this goes for DJ too. but we're never even the best of what we have lol, which is still not good enough, and hence here i am griping in a forum.... Honestly any young qb we would have brought in would be having similar issues of inconsistencies and losing Let's go to a very popular revisionist history amongst our fan base and I'll show you how similar if not even worse it would be Let's do everything exactly the same all of 2018 and 2019 in the offseason and instead of Jones we take the pass rusher Josh Allen He has a good rookie year,Eli plays out his contract and we go 4-12(Eli retires with a now badly bruised legacy of an under .500 career record as well )as qb didn't lose game for us but witb a bad roster other than the Tampa game didn't win any games. We are now going into 2020 with only one major resource at O like drafted (Hernandez)and a 5th round completimentary speed WR added . Instead of Thomas we take Herbert. Everything else the same So one issue is now we don't have a future LT prospect,added to Solder opting out. So Peart is now thrust in as a 3rd round undersized rookie tackle full time Embarrassing group of playmakers..Garret .. There is no way Herbert has a rookie season like he does in Los Angeles (where he had Keenen Allen,Mike Williams,Guyton,Hunter Henry as weapons ...all better than what we had last year ),horrible O line and no weapons.. But we do enough to go 6-10 So now 2021 offseason.. no weapons we have to pay Golladay still...we do everything the same Now what do we do at 11? We HAVE to take Slater. And miss out on Toney and an extra potential high 2022 first round pick .... Minus the dynamic playmaking ability of Toney we now have tbe same injured playmakers as last year witb Golladay out and our line being Slater and everyone else... Herbert would probably show the same step up Jones has but we would see games like last week as well because down to nobody ...and fans would be calling for a new qb.. All the while he would have to be like Jones be working through flaws in his game while dealing with this... And now we don't have the extra draft capital next year.... The offseasons of 2018-2019 potentially set this franchise back a decade due to short sightendness and old fogie football mentality I think this post illustrates just how impactful taking sqb at 2 was... and not in a good way
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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 21, 2021 17:01:18 GMT -5
Honestly any young qb we would have brought in would be having similar issues of inconsistencies and losing Let's go to a very popular revisionist history amongst our fan base and I'll show you how similar if not even worse it would be Let's do everything exactly the same all of 2018 and 2019 in the offseason and instead of Jones we take the pass rusher Josh Allen He has a good rookie year,Eli plays out his contract and we go 4-12(Eli retires with a now badly bruised legacy of an under .500 career record as well )as qb didn't lose game for us but witb a bad roster other than the Tampa game didn't win any games. We are now going into 2020 with only one major resource at O like drafted (Hernandez)and a 5th round completimentary speed WR added . Instead of Thomas we take Herbert. Everything else the same So one issue is now we don't have a future LT prospect,added to Solder opting out. So Peart is now thrust in as a 3rd round undersized rookie tackle full time Embarrassing group of playmakers..Garret .. There is no way Herbert has a rookie season like he does in Los Angeles (where he had Keenen Allen,Mike Williams,Guyton,Hunter Henry as weapons ...all better than what we had last year ),horrible O line and no weapons.. But we do enough to go 6-10 So now 2021 offseason.. no weapons we have to pay Golladay still...we do everything the same Now what do we do at 11? We HAVE to take Slater. And miss out on Toney and an extra potential high 2022 first round pick .... Minus the dynamic playmaking ability of Toney we now have tbe same injured playmakers as last year witb Golladay out and our line being Slater and everyone else... Herbert would probably show the same step up Jones has but we would see games like last week as well because down to nobody ...and fans would be calling for a new qb.. All the while he would have to be like Jones be working through flaws in his game while dealing with this... And now we don't have the extra draft capital next year.... The offseasons of 2018-2019 potentially set this franchise back a decade due to short sightendness and old fogie football mentality I think this post illustrates just how impactful taking sqb at 2 was... and not in a good way Not even that I've illustrated how taking him at 2 would work 2018 Don't spend money on Solder,let Flowers play that year at LT..the difference in play was neglable... Don't trade a 4th for Olgletree and extend him Go Barkley Hernandez,Orlando Brown (instead of Hill) But yeah 2018 and 2019 were beyond disastrous and then you try to develop a rookie qb in this with all the future domino's
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Post by imgrate on Oct 21, 2021 17:47:24 GMT -5
I think this post illustrates just how impactful taking sqb at 2 was... and not in a good way Not even that I've illustrated how taking him at 2 would work 2018 Don't spend money on Solder,let Flowers play that year at LT..the difference in play was neglable... Don't trade a 4th for Olgletree and extend him Go Barkley Hernandez,Orlando Brown (instead of Hill) But yeah 2018 and 2019 were beyond disastrous and then you try to develop a rookie qb in this with all the future domino's Well yea. If we change a shit ton of things that are in hindsight all hits and perfect, then yes the Barkley pick would've been ok. Like if you did all that shit and then did what you said of taking Josh Allen the pass rusher then Herbert then we'd be sitting even prettier.... I was going off your premise of just changing nothing but the DJ pick (and Thomas pick). But what I am saying is the Barkley pick is only one move that changes. Take Bradley chubb, Denzel ward, Quenton Nelson, or a trade back instead of Barkley..then still make every single move after that the same... Obviously ya can't do everything the same because our draft position would likely have been different in following years, but just for the sake of simplicity. And its just so obvious that we shouldn't have taken Barkley even not in hindsight
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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 21, 2021 17:51:56 GMT -5
Not even that I've illustrated how taking him at 2 would work 2018 Don't spend money on Solder,let Flowers play that year at LT..the difference in play was neglable... Don't trade a 4th for Olgletree and extend him Go Barkley Hernandez,Orlando Brown (instead of Hill) But yeah 2018 and 2019 were beyond disastrous and then you try to develop a rookie qb in this with all the future domino's Well yea. If we change a shit ton of things that are in hindsight all hits and perfect, then yes the Barkley pick would've been ok. Like if you did all that shit and then did what you said of taking Josh Allen the pass rusher then Herbert then we'd be sitting even prettier.... I was going off your premise of just changing nothing but the DJ pick (and Thomas pick). But what I am saying is the Barkley pick is only one move that changes. Take Bradley chubb, Denzel ward, Quenton Nelson, or a trade back instead of Barkley..then still make every single move after that the same... Obviously ya can't do everything the same because our draft position would likely have been different in following years, but just for the sake of simplicity. And its just so obvious that we shouldn't have taken Barkley even not in hindsight True But my original point was that what we did in 2018 ans 19 as a whole no matter if we took Jones in 19 or Hebert in 20 was so bad that we would be having these discussions about our qb either way
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Post by imgrate on Oct 21, 2021 17:58:14 GMT -5
Well yea. If we change a shit ton of things that are in hindsight all hits and perfect, then yes the Barkley pick would've been ok. Like if you did all that shit and then did what you said of taking Josh Allen the pass rusher then Herbert then we'd be sitting even prettier.... I was going off your premise of just changing nothing but the DJ pick (and Thomas pick). But what I am saying is the Barkley pick is only one move that changes. Take Bradley chubb, Denzel ward, Quenton Nelson, or a trade back instead of Barkley..then still make every single move after that the same... Obviously ya can't do everything the same because our draft position would likely have been different in following years, but just for the sake of simplicity. And its just so obvious that we shouldn't have taken Barkley even not in hindsight True But my original point was that what we did in 2018 ans 19 as a whole no matter if we took Jones in 19 or Hebert in 20 was so bad that we would be having these discussions about our qb either way Dunno man. Our D might be playing much better with a competent pass rusher. Herbert also appears to be a better QB prospect to me...but I'll generally agree that we'd still probably suck. The upside is we'd have a good pass rusher on a rookie deal and a top QB on a rookie deal for one more year than we currently do.
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Post by DandyDon on Oct 21, 2021 18:23:02 GMT -5
I think we might want to re-define what a "franchise QB" is.
How often does a top 10 drafted QB work out? How much does the team around him matter?
How much "expertise" do guys like the one in this thread really have? If he's so smart, why doesn't he have a job in the NFL?
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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 21, 2021 18:28:22 GMT -5
True But my original point was that what we did in 2018 ans 19 as a whole no matter if we took Jones in 19 or Hebert in 20 was so bad that we would be having these discussions about our qb either way Dunno man. Our D might be playing much better with a competent pass rusher. Herbert also appears to be a better QB prospect to me...but I'll generally agree that we'd still probably suck. The upside is we'd have a good pass rusher on a rookie deal and a top QB on a rookie deal for one more year than we currently do. Allen has sucked since his rookie year ,this fan base would be trying to run him out of town Herbert might be a better prospect but what I'm trying to say is he had way more in LA his rookie year than the trash he would have had last year and probably a worse O line and we would have had to choose between being desperate for o line or the trade back and Toney.. Put him on this team with this trash and he looks like Jones in many ways is what I'm trying to say.. This franchise looked like a death sentence for any of these scenarios for a young rookie qb the past few years
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 18:34:46 GMT -5
3yrs in & he's still just eyeballing primary receiver from the snap. You hardly ever see him look off the safety or go thru his progressions. And these are some of the reasons why I said one day he will be a backup in this league. But all the No it alls make fun.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 19:37:02 GMT -5
He ignored it this past off season.. I mean are you really counting a couple of back up vets who didn't like the training regimen and quit?? I'm not, I mean yea I guess you can say that he ignored it this specific offseason, but during his overall tenure here he has thrown alot of resources ($$ and draft picks) at the OL. And honestly, if the OL that started week 1 stayed healthy, then it would've been atleast a middle of the pack OL in the NFL Honestly this is nothing more than a wishful hope.. Solder has been bad and there is no way to tell if the LGs were going to be any better..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2021 19:37:26 GMT -5
My issue is that he doesn't set his feet in the right position and needs to stutter step with a bang on the ball before he releases it. That's making everything just a bit slower which is big at this level.. Again -> coaching. Sad but true..
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Eazy E
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Post by Eazy E on Oct 21, 2021 20:28:17 GMT -5
These are Herberts rookie highlights. Notice the pressure in the pocket and execution still. DJ doesn't compare in the NFL or College. Herbert is a winner. Herberts command of his team has been incredible. DJ is still trying to learn how to win.
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nyg2
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Post by nyg2 on Oct 21, 2021 20:46:49 GMT -5
If he's a franchise QB the correct thing to say would've been, as DJ goes the Giants go. Which gets into the heart of the problem since last year, it seems like the kid needs everything to be perfect for him to be able to function. But we haven't even seen "good enough " around here,except for the Saints game Perfect is what Dallas has around Dak,Tampa has around Brady,Buffalo has around Allen. As a player he's closer to Baker Mayfield, if you took away Baker's great Oline, Kareem Hunt, Nick Chubb, Jarvis Landry, David Njoku, and OBJ, Baker would flat out lay an egg. It's a reason why Baker isn't considered elite, as much as it is people understanding that he's surrounded with a lot of talent and firepower. If you put Daniel Jones on the Browns right now, I'm sure he would probably be top-5 in every statistical category when it comes to QBs. This isn't to say that we have anything remotely close to what the Browns have, but essentially that's what would be needed for Daniel Jones to be able to play at a high-level and I don't think that's a realistic expectation for a fan to assume that a roster like that is attainable in a hard-cap league. The bottom line is when you're drafted at #6 overall there comes an expectation that you're able to elevate the play of those around you. FOs don't have the time to wait and take baby steps when they draft someone that's supposed to be the face of their franchise. Their own jobs are on the line and they need to build a roster on both sides of the ball in order for them to compete every Sunday, they can't expend all their resources and capital just around the QB.
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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 21, 2021 20:58:31 GMT -5
But we haven't even seen "good enough " around here,except for the Saints game Perfect is what Dallas has around Dak,Tampa has around Brady,Buffalo has around Allen. As a player he's closer to Baker Mayfield, if you took away Baker's great Oline, Kareem Hunt, Nick Chubb, Jarvis Landry, David Njoku, and OBJ, Baker would flat out lay an egg. It's a reason why Baker isn't considered elite, as much as it is people understanding that he's surrounded with a lot of talent and firepower. If you put Daniel Jones on the Browns right now, I'm sure he would probably be top-5 in every statistical category when it comes to QBs. This isn't to say that we have anything remotely close to what the Browns have, but essentially that's what would be needed for Daniel Jones to be able to play at a high-level and I don't think that's a realistic expectation for a fan to assume that a roster like that is attainable in a hard-cap league. The bottom line is when you're drafted at #6 overall there comes an expectation that you're able to elevate the play of those around you. FOs don't have the time to wait and take baby steps when they draft someone that's supposed to be the face of their franchise. Their own jobs are on the line and they need to build a roster on both sides of the ball in order for them to compete every Sunday, they can't expend all their resources and capital just around the QB. When you are drafted at 6 overall its is expected to have more around the qb than what Jones has had his first 2 years which is the most important part of a young qb's career.There was nothing to elevate other than a pedestrian at best playmaker group that has been easy to defend,a bad o line and last year no back to fear. There has not been any qb that has become successful that has had what Jones has had here so far save a few games where he had a healthy group of weapons Look at Lawrence and Zach Wilson this year,especially Lawrence,he has about as bad a group around him as Jones did his first 2 years and despite showing what he can do he can't lift that team on his back
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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 21, 2021 21:04:44 GMT -5
These are Herberts rookie highlights. Notice the pressure in the pocket and execution still. DJ doesn't compare in the NFL or College. Herbert is a winner. Herberts command of his team has been incredible. DJ is still trying to learn how to win. Yeah that's nice But who on this team Jones first 2 years was as good as Keenen Allen ? Now who on this team was as good as Hunter Henry? Now add in Williams and Guyton.. You put Herbert on this team last year it would look hell of a lot different
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Post by scoostraw on Oct 21, 2021 21:18:44 GMT -5
I think we might want to re-define what a "franchise QB" is. How often does a top 10 drafted QB work out? How much does the team around him matter? How much "expertise" do guys like the one in this thread really have? If he's so smart, why doesn't he have a job in the NFL? Not everyone wants to be a coach. It is a life as much as it is a profession.
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Post by jaymas on Oct 21, 2021 22:35:53 GMT -5
How are people seeing where Daniel Jones' eyes are, like quite literally? Or is it just getting super elementary up in here and if we don't see big head movement, the conclusion is that he's staring at his primary receiver?
Most movement is with eyes not the head... we're talking about two to three seconds, people. There isnt some magical 5 progression head/eye trickery a QB goes through that accounts for everyone that runs a route. It's not a game of Madden, QBs can't even see the whole field at once.
I think "locks on his primary receiver" may be the single most ill-informed criticism of any quarterback for a variety of reasons...but most of all the lack of a super clear view of the eyes.
And also... there's a crap ton of scenarios where you do stay locked on your primary like man coverage and the play is designed to win the matchup or you're just waiting for your guy to win the matchup.
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Post by bigbluebandit on Oct 22, 2021 5:47:16 GMT -5
as the giants go, so does DJ. If he's a franchise QB the correct thing to say would've been, as DJ goes the Giants go. Which gets into the heart of the problem since last year, it seems like the kid needs everything to be perfect for him to be able to function. LOL, Perfect? What part of the Giants offense besides jones do you qualify as functioning?
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Post by GameTime on Oct 22, 2021 7:43:50 GMT -5
3yrs in & he's still just eyeballing primary receiver from the snap. You hardly ever see him look off the safety or go thru his progressions. The guy is giving DJ a pass for the pass protection, and rightly so, but in the first strip sack he has the guy coming from his right and he still can't feel the rush. On both those strip sacks he needs to feel the rush and not expose the football. His poor pocket awareness is still a problem, which suggests into his 3rd season it's always going to be a problem.
happened in less than 2 seconds. He would have to hike the ball and cover up immediately to avoid that. Pressure was from up the gut and the right side. Maybe he though Solder would run his guy up field more. Jones def has issues with pocket awareness but I dont out that play on him at all. He saw the open receiver in the middle and wanted to hang in to make the throw. A split second more and thats maybe a nice 15 yard completion.
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Post by GameTime on Oct 22, 2021 7:45:31 GMT -5
After the Saints game were peeps complaining about his techniques etc?
IMO Jones' head was still foggy and he should have been on the bench. He was not ready to play. The kid has lots to prove and having a foggy noggin does not help him at all.
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Post by imgrate on Oct 22, 2021 8:06:27 GMT -5
I'm not, I mean yea I guess you can say that he ignored it this specific offseason, but during his overall tenure here he has thrown alot of resources ($$ and draft picks) at the OL. And honestly, if the OL that started week 1 stayed healthy, then it would've been atleast a middle of the pack OL in the NFL Honestly this is nothing more than a wishful hope.. Solder has been bad and there is no way to tell if the LGs were going to be any better..
It's definitely a guess, but Thomas bredeson gates Hernandez solder/peart should have been capable in my opinion, again the sample size was small so I get the doubt
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Post by ratbastich on Oct 22, 2021 8:21:00 GMT -5
As a player he's closer to Baker Mayfield, if you took away Baker's great Oline, Kareem Hunt, Nick Chubb, Jarvis Landry, David Njoku, and OBJ, Baker would flat out lay an egg. It's a reason why Baker isn't considered elite, as much as it is people understanding that he's surrounded with a lot of talent and firepower. If you put Daniel Jones on the Browns right now, I'm sure he would probably be top-5 in every statistical category when it comes to QBs. This isn't to say that we have anything remotely close to what the Browns have, but essentially that's what would be needed for Daniel Jones to be able to play at a high-level and I don't think that's a realistic expectation for a fan to assume that a roster like that is attainable in a hard-cap league. The bottom line is when you're drafted at #6 overall there comes an expectation that you're able to elevate the play of those around you. FOs don't have the time to wait and take baby steps when they draft someone that's supposed to be the face of their franchise. Their own jobs are on the line and they need to build a roster on both sides of the ball in order for them to compete every Sunday, they can't expend all their resources and capital just around the QB. When you are drafted at 6 overall its is expected to have more around the qb than what Jones has had his first 2 years which is the most important part of a young qb's career.There was nothing to elevate other than a pedestrian at best playmaker group that has been easy to defend,a bad o line and last year no back to fear. There has not been any qb that has become successful that has had what Jones has had here so far save a few games where he had a healthy group of weapons Look at Lawrence and Zach Wilson this year,especially Lawrence,he has about as bad a group around him as Jones did his first 2 years and despite showing what he can do he can't lift that team on his back Another illustration of this point would be David Carr. When he got drafted by Houston they had nothing. No skill positions and a line like a sieve. He went from being a potentially great, at the very least a solid franchise QB, to being so shell-shocked that he ended his career looking for back up spots.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2021 8:30:52 GMT -5
Honestly this is nothing more than a wishful hope.. Solder has been bad and there is no way to tell if the LGs were going to be any better..
It's definitely a guess, but Thomas bredeson gates Hernandez solder/peart should have been capable in my opinion, again the sample size was small so I get the doubt Thomas and Gates were the only two playing above average while Hernandez is close.. I really hope the new GM can find a player or two in the draft that will be week one starters on the oline but pass rusher is the top of the list with that 1st pick..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2021 8:33:33 GMT -5
After the Saints game were peeps complaining about his techniques etc? IMO Jones' head was still foggy and he should have been on the bench. He was not ready to play. The kid has lots to prove and having a foggy noggin does not help him at all. I will be looking at his foot work from now on. Was always focusing on the oline these 1st handful of games since I thought he was doing pretty good..
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giantsalmon
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Post by giantsalmon on Oct 22, 2021 8:51:35 GMT -5
How are people seeing where Daniel Jones' eyes are, like quite literally? Or is it just getting super elementary up in here and if we don't see big head movement, the conclusion is that he's staring at his primary receiver? Most movement is with eyes not the head... we're talking about two to three seconds, people. There isnt some magical 5 progression head/eye trickery a QB goes through that accounts for everyone that runs a route. It's not a game of Madden, QBs can't even see the whole field at once. I think "locks on his primary receiver" may be the single most ill-informed criticism of any quarterback for a variety of reasons...but most of all the lack of a super clear view of the eyes. And also... there's a crap to of scenarios where you do stay locked on your primary like man coverage and the play is designed to win the matchup or you're just waiting for your guy to win the matchup. With all the losing I have watched more non Giants games. I have seen it pointed out in games when Josh Allen, Herbert, and Mayfield have checked down when there was a guy wide open for a huge gain. The point being these guys get it drilled into their heads to get rid of that hot potato. Our guy is capable of so much more than what we've seen. Who knows if he will EVER experience stability during this growing period. Coach changes, system changes, merry go round of available targets, a sieve of an O line that has to play Solder all factor in.
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