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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 27, 2024 8:34:16 GMT -5
good props for DJ but you are wrong Kyle. Even I have now finally seen the light. The kids has talent for sure but he just cant put it all together and has an injury history. I'm with you here for me it's more how damaged he might be mentally and physically.
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Post by ratbastich on Mar 27, 2024 8:42:32 GMT -5
This isn't very sympathetic and less so empathetic, but at this stage, it is not the Giants' job to get him "fixed". A lot of these sports people keep pushing the narrative of what Mara said about damaging him and not being fair to him. While this is true, we are in year 6. At what point do we realize that this experiment is not going to give better results? Most of these people are looking at it from the perspective of being former players, and I get it, but unless he has Rich Gannon DNA, who didn't become someone until his latter years, he is going to be a pedestrian quarterback his whole career that is left. You sit still, you become stagnant and just watch everyone pass you by.
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Post by Martin on Mar 27, 2024 8:52:33 GMT -5
This isn't very sympathetic and less so empathetic, but at this stage, it is not the Giants' job to get him "fixed". A lot of these sports people keep pushing the narrative of what Mara said about damaging him and not being fair to him. While this is true, we are in year 6. At what point do we realize that this experiment is not going to give better results? Most of these people are looking at it from the perspective of being former players, and I get it, but unless he has Rich Gannon DNA, who didn't become someone until his latter years, he is going to be a pedestrian quarterback his whole career that is left. You sit still, you become stagnant and just watch everyone pass you by. Agree with this. You have to move forward. The time for excuses and what happened is over. The fact is NFL teams want faster results at this position. Jones was more than compensated for his effort. Bottom line the Giants need a QB an oline to move forward.
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Mar 27, 2024 9:00:10 GMT -5
No he's not.
Does the fact that he got to on 5 lousy teams qualify as giving him a fair opportunity to be at his best?
I don't think so.
But I think it's fair to he only question if he's now damaged goods as a player and can he stay healthy?
Fair questions IMO the knee he will recover from the neck IMO is a concern not with his running put the sacks he has been punished with . Stop the QB from getting sacked then a big % of injuries probability goes away. As for being damaged mentality- shell shocked lets say. I say more damage is done by fans calling him every name in the book and are happy when he gets hurt, (not you but you know I'm right) after his body gets beaten week after week(17 sacks in 7 days) and he knows the line he has in front of him can't stop it and the fans blame him for it. I think the kid will bounce back and have a pretty good year.
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Post by vinnie on Mar 27, 2024 9:18:57 GMT -5
I get that Jones was put in shitty situations but acting like he never had opportunities and blew them often is ridiculous. Yeah, the O lines were never good, but that didn’t mean he NEVER had time to throw, that didn’t mean a large percentage of the sacks weren’t on him due to not having pocket awareness or being able to read a defense pre snap, that didn’t mean he didn’t miss wide open receivers or read threw his progressions, that didn’t mean he never made poor decisions or didn’t protect the ball.
I’ve literally never seen so many excuses for a QB, especially after 5 years. Of course most of those excuses only come from a handful of posters and trolls but the majority of fans have finally accepted what he is which isn’t a franchise QB and a bus driver at best. We’re not winning any championships with him unless we have one of the greatest defenses of all time so very little is asked of him and if that’s the case we can grab a back up QB for a fraction of the price and get the same (or better; see Tyrod Taylor) results.
I guarantee when he has another middling year this season there will be more excuses. “He’s coming off a an ACL injury, the O line hasn’t had time to gel, he hasn’t had time to work with his WR’s, he doesn’t have Barkley”. Now their resorting to “shell shocked”, pathetic. If he’s truly shell shocked than that implies he’s ruined and it’s time to move on so why even use that as an excuse to keep him? The excuses will literally never stop for some of his fan bois.
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Post by Danke Schoen on Mar 27, 2024 9:22:55 GMT -5
No he's not. Does the fact that he got to on 5 lousy teams qualify as giving him a fair opportunity to be at his best? I don't think so. But I think it's fair to he only question if he's now damaged goods as a player and can he stay healthy?
Fair questions IMO the knee he will recover from the neck IMO is a concern not with his running put the sacks he has been punished with . Stop the QB from getting sacked then a big % of injuries probability goes away. Most of his injuries have nothing to do with sacks. No concern with him getting injured running?
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Post by GameTime on Mar 27, 2024 9:25:55 GMT -5
good props for DJ but you are wrong Kyle. Even I have now finally seen the light. The kids has talent for sure but he just cant put it all together and has an injury history. I'm with you here for me it's more how damaged he might be mentally and physically. I am sure that plays a part too. The last thing Jones wants is to get injured again. That will no doubt effect his game. In 2022 he seemed to let loose. I get his stats were not great as far as TDs etc but the way he played the game seem to be more free and focused actually. Then came 2023 and he went into a shell like 2022 never happened...... and then got hurt.
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Post by Martin on Mar 27, 2024 9:26:33 GMT -5
I get that Jones was put in shitty situations but acting like he never had opportunities and blew them often is ridiculous. Yeah, the O lines were never good, but that didn’t mean he NEVER had time to throw, that didn’t mean a large percentage of the sacks weren’t on him due to not having pocket awareness or being able to read a defense pre snap, that didn’t mean he didn’t miss wide open receivers or read threw his progressions, that didn’t mean he never made poor decisions or didn’t protect the ball. I’ve literally never seen so many excuses for a QB, especially after 5 years. Of course most of those excuses only come from a handful of posters and trolls but the majority of fans have finally accepted what he is which isn’t a franchise QB and a bus driver at best. We’re not winning any championships with him unless we have one of the greatest defenses of all time so very little is asked of him and if that’s the case we can grab a back up QB for a fraction of the price and get the same (or better; see Tyrod Taylor) results. I guarantee when he has another middling year this season there will be more excuses. “He’s coming off a an ACL injury, the O line hasn’t had time to gel, he hasn’t had time to work with his WR’s, he doesn’t have Barkley”. Now their resorting to “shell shocked”, pathetic. If he’s truly shell shocked than that implies he’s ruined and it’s time to move on so why even use that as an excuse to keep him? The excuses will literally never stop for some of his fan bois. Ans even with a great D you still need points in TDs. Good post!
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Mar 27, 2024 10:19:08 GMT -5
This isn't very sympathetic and less so empathetic, but at this stage, it is not the Giants' job to get him "fixed". A lot of these sports people keep pushing the narrative of what Mara said about damaging him and not being fair to him. While this is true, we are in year 6. At what point do we realize that this experiment is not going to give better results? Most of these people are looking at it from the perspective of being former players, and I get it, but unless he has Rich Gannon DNA, who didn't become someone until his latter years, he is going to be a pedestrian quarterback his whole career that is left. You sit still, you become stagnant and just watch everyone pass you by. Agree with this. You have to move forward. The time for excuses and what happened is over. The fact is NFL teams want faster results at this position. Jones was more than compensated for his effort. Bottom line the Giants need a QB an oline to move forward. I hear this a lot and your opinion isn't an unusual one but had the Giants done that with Simms or Kerry Collins(Simms would have been cut and they never would have signed Collins) we never would have gotten to those 3 Super Bowls
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Post by giants8493 on Mar 27, 2024 10:21:47 GMT -5
Rudolph the reindeer?
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te88
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Post by te88 on Mar 27, 2024 10:33:51 GMT -5
Ranaan has been saying this. With the way McCarthy has shot up, I'd be surprised if we have much a shot at the top-4 QB's at this point. Nix/Penix/Rattler are starting to look like realistic consolations. Obviously not at 6, but a trade down might be likelier than I first thought with the interest in those WR's rising. But like you said, dumb fan here. Didn’t know that about Ranaan. If the Giants are willing to part with two 1sts to move up 2 spots then I think the 4th is theirs. All it takes for that to not happen is for whomever is available at 4 isn’t someone the feel like betting their career on. That’s “interchangeable” point I was making. I didn’t think it was likely either until JJ at #2 started getting discussed. I think they would trade up for Jayden Daniels if they could get him at 4.
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te88
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Post by te88 on Mar 27, 2024 10:36:14 GMT -5
Daniel Jones has two neck injuries and a bum knee. He has physical talent but the chances of his body holding up are low. His talent “between the ears” isn’t at the same level of him physically. He isn’t what Rudolph says.
The film of Daniel Jones is damning. Taylor outplayed him significantly. That was a death blow to his career.
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Post by Martin on Mar 27, 2024 10:47:25 GMT -5
Agree with this. You have to move forward. The time for excuses and what happened is over. The fact is NFL teams want faster results at this position. Jones was more than compensated for his effort. Bottom line the Giants need a QB an oline to move forward. I hear this a lot and your opinion isn't an unusual one but had the Giants done that with Simms or Kerry Collins(Simms would have been cut and they never would have signed Collins) we never would have gotten to those 3 Super Bowls My background goes back to the middle 60's sports. I have always had a soft spot for players and would get upset when a player would be gone etc.. But this new NFL has changed. The speed they want a player to evolve is very fast and 5 years is a lifetime. We can talk all day about the lack of support that was around him but also there is baggage on him as well. Your example about Sims and Collins were at a time were the window of development was much wider. That window today is very small. The only way to win a SB or get to play in one is with a dynamic play maker. Waiting a longer time for QB development is not an option for a 1st round pick in todays game.
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Post by Danke Schoen on Mar 27, 2024 11:11:59 GMT -5
Agree with this. You have to move forward. The time for excuses and what happened is over. The fact is NFL teams want faster results at this position. Jones was more than compensated for his effort. Bottom line the Giants need a QB an oline to move forward. I hear this a lot and your opinion isn't an unusual one but had the Giants done that with Simms or Kerry Collins(Simms would have been cut and they never would have signed Collins) we never would have gotten to those 3 Super Bowls You keep comparing completely different eras of football. Maybe we should implement the wishbone running attack in 2024!
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 27, 2024 11:43:16 GMT -5
I'm with you here for me it's more how damaged he might be mentally and physically. I am sure that plays a part too. The last thing Jones wants is to get injured again. That will no doubt effect his game. In 2022 he seemed to let loose. I get his stats were not great as far as TDs etc but the way he played the game seem to be more free and focused actually. Then came 2023 and he went into a shell like 2022 never happened...... and then got hurt. Not an excuse but 2023 the OL play was as bad as we have seen in years he under siege, that said there were some answers that he missed 2022 by mid season that OL was maybe the east they had been in 10 years he actually was throwing the ball pretty good by years end. Just really to bad that we are going into year 6 and are forced to draft a QB if it'd reasonable or lets say doable for me this came about because what Mara termed as frustrating more bad OL play, that needs to be fixed before they risk anyone else's life back there.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 27, 2024 11:46:26 GMT -5
I hear this a lot and your opinion isn't an unusual one but had the Giants done that with Simms or Kerry Collins(Simms would have been cut and they never would have signed Collins) we never would have gotten to those 3 Super Bowls My background goes back to the middle 60's sports. I have always had a soft spot for players and would get upset when a player would be gone etc.. But this new NFL has changed. The speed they want a player to evolve is very fast and 5 years is a lifetime. We can talk all day about the lack of support that was around him but also there is baggage on him as well. Your example about Sims and Collins were at a time were the window of development was much wider. That window today is very small. The only way to win a SB or get to play in one is with a dynamic play maker. Waiting a longer time for QB development is not an option for a 1st round pick in todays game. Exactly more because of the new collective bargaining agreement a team has control at a cut rate price for 4 years then tag or no tag it's going up so a QB needs to prove his worth by end year 2 at the latest of year 3.
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Post by Martin on Mar 27, 2024 12:00:43 GMT -5
My background goes back to the middle 60's sports. I have always had a soft spot for players and would get upset when a player would be gone etc.. But this new NFL has changed. The speed they want a player to evolve is very fast and 5 years is a lifetime. We can talk all day about the lack of support that was around him but also there is baggage on him as well. Your example about Sims and Collins were at a time were the window of development was much wider. That window today is very small. The only way to win a SB or get to play in one is with a dynamic play maker. Waiting a longer time for QB development is not an option for a 1st round pick in todays game. Exactly more because of the new collective bargaining agreement a team has control at a cut rate price for 4 years then tag or no tag it's going up so a QB needs to prove his worth by end year 2 at the latest of year 3. 100% They swap out a new QB on a cheap price short term. Eventually you have to find your guy. This draft seems difficult to me due to the Giants needs. What they really need Big Blue is (2) first RND picks! Get the Qb and Wr.....
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 27, 2024 12:07:12 GMT -5
No he's not.
Does the fact that he got to on 5 lousy teams qualify as giving him a fair opportunity to be at his best?
I don't think so.
But I think it's fair to he only question if he's now damaged goods as a player and can he stay healthy?
At the end of the day the NFL is a meet grinder. A guy gets stuck in a bad situation when the bell strikes 12 which it should be year 3, if said player isn't getting it done he usually is being replaced. Just the way it works with contracts and structure Jones got an extra 3 years so far, no one cares about who's fault it is or if it's fair the GM Owners and Coaches want to and need to win. Winning usually only happens with a top 10 QB DJ hasn't been that when healthy reasons don't matter the years do he is going into year 6 it's well past a player that hasn't produced expiration date on his NFL career.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 27, 2024 12:09:53 GMT -5
Exactly more because of the new collective bargaining agreement a team has control at a cut rate price for 4 years then tag or no tag it's going up so a QB needs to prove his worth by end year 2 at the latest of year 3. 100% They swap out a new QB on a cheap price short term. Eventually you have to find your guy. This draft seems difficult to me due to the Giants needs. What they really need Big Blue is (2) first RND picks! Get the Qb and Wr..... 100% i think if they don't get in on the top 4 they should trade down collect a WR and CB draft Rattler late 2nd early 3rd and keep building.
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Post by vinnie on Mar 27, 2024 12:19:15 GMT -5
Lol at the comparison to Simms having as long as he did, that’s like cows fans always talking about getting a Herschel Walker type trade, it’s not happening, two different era’s of football. If the salary cap was around when Simms was QB he would have never made it 5+ years and if he did he wouldn’t have won any Super Bowls because they wouldn’t have been able to afford half the players on the team AND pay Simms.
As much as QB’s are making now, you either pay a guy that elevates everyone on offense or you get a rookie or back up type QB for very cheap and pay out the ass for play makers on both sides of the ball. The other option is hitting on a bunch of draft picks which Schoen has yet to even come close to doing. ****, even if Neal becomes a stud this year, we’ll have to pay him big money in a year or two, along with Thibs, plus the contracts we already have for Dex, AT and potentially Wandale and Hyatt. At some point you have to trim the fat and that fat is DJ and his contract (not to mention his injury clause of 25 million).
The guy isn’t worth it. Maybe if there’s some team that’s already loaded and just needs a QB, he will be worth the risk and can maybe be another Dak or Baker, but we’re not that team and the longer he’s around the more risk we have paying him for being injured and the less money we’ll have to fill out a roster that is still anemic on both sides of the ball. Adios Jones, thanks for your “service”.
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Post by Roosevelt on Mar 27, 2024 12:46:28 GMT -5
No he's not.
Does the fact that he got to on 5 lousy teams qualify as giving him a fair opportunity to be at his best?
I don't think so.
But I think it's fair to he only question if he's now damaged goods as a player and can he stay healthy?
Fair questions IMO the knee he will recover from the neck IMO is a concern not with his running put the sacks he has been punished with . Stop the QB from getting sacked then a big % of injuries probability goes away. As for being damaged mentality- shell shocked lets say. I say more damage is done by fans calling him every name in the book and are happy when he gets hurt, (not you but you know I'm right) after his body gets beaten week after week(17 sacks in 7 days) and he knows the line he has in front of him can't stop it and the fans blame him for it. I think the kid will bounce back and have a pretty good year. NY fans have always been tough and with SM it’s even tougher on these players. And not just the players but their families too. That must really suck having to avoid social media and such.
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Post by Roosevelt on Mar 27, 2024 12:50:44 GMT -5
When the Giants draft a WR at 6, don't be coming in here all surprised
“Let’s stop messing around,” Rudolph said. “I give the Giants credit, they’ve tried to bolster the offensive line with first-round picks and in free agency, but it hasn’t worked as well as they hoped. Can we get the guy a No. 1 wide receiver, please?”
“How can you judge someone who has played in the NFL for five years now and he’s never had a No. 1 wide receiver? What quarterback goes five years without being given a No. 1 wide receiver?" he said.
"John Mara said it before last season, we’ve done everything to screw this kid up. It’s like okay let’s stop doing everything to screw him up and maybe go get a game-changing wide receiver for him."
"I like DJ," Rudolph said. "I think he is super talented. I think he has the ability to be a Josh Allen type quarterback. He has the athletic ability to run the football and he has an adequately strong arm to make every throw."
I know right? It’s crazy to think that Rudolph knows more about Jones than we do.
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Aris
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Post by Aris on Mar 27, 2024 13:22:46 GMT -5
I know right? It’s crazy to think that Rudolph knows more about Jones than we do. I'm believing Rudolf's red nose is from being drunk.... and having a bit of a black out Josh Allen?
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Post by Roosevelt on Mar 27, 2024 14:07:01 GMT -5
I know right? It’s crazy to think that Rudolph knows more about Jones than we do. I'm believing Rudolf's red nose is from being drunk.... and having a bit of a black out Josh Allen? It's clear what he said. He didn't say he was Josh Allen. He was alluding to him having similar traits in that he can run and he's got a decent arm. I'm guessing he was also thinking that they're both big guys as well.
We've seen what Daniel's capable of during that limited stretch of success in he enjoyed 2022. The only question, for some of us anyway is, can he be that guy and better, consistently.
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Post by GameTime on Mar 27, 2024 14:24:36 GMT -5
I am sure that plays a part too. The last thing Jones wants is to get injured again. That will no doubt effect his game. In 2022 he seemed to let loose. I get his stats were not great as far as TDs etc but the way he played the game seem to be more free and focused actually. Then came 2023 and he went into a shell like 2022 never happened...... and then got hurt. Not an excuse but 2023 the OL play was as bad as we have seen in years he under siege, that said there were some answers that he missed 2022 by mid season that OL was maybe the east they had been in 10 years he actually was throwing the ball pretty good by years end. Just really to bad that we are going into year 6 and are forced to draft a QB if it'd reasonable or lets say doable for me this came about because what Mara termed as frustrating more bad OL play, that needs to be fixed before they risk anyone else's life back there. tough finding the right QB as you know. I bet 90% of them never make it as a franchise. I can see why they would exhaust every means to see if he was the guy. They gambled and lost.
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Aris
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Post by Aris on Mar 27, 2024 16:07:53 GMT -5
I'm believing Rudolf's red nose is from being drunk.... and having a bit of a black out Josh Allen? It's clear what he said. He didn't say he was Josh Allen. He was alluding to him having similar traits in that he can run and he's got a decent arm. I'm guessing he was also thinking that they're both big guys as well.
We've seen what Daniel's capable of during that limited stretch of success in he enjoyed 2022. The only question, for some of us anyway is, can he be that guy and better, consistently.
I can pull out my NFL QB guys, and coaches, and scouts and players, ex and in the league…and they can say he is trash, or a detailed what is wrong…not sure why posters use that as a backing and support system for any debate…to me it’s silly at best simply because from underwear scouts to top paid GM’s …to fans that have never put on a pad, to posters who were 4 star recruits…all have differing opinions. You, Rosey, see flowers…I see shit. He used the name Josh Allen in comparison. Not much more I can add to the puddle of Jones threads.
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Post by Roosevelt on Mar 27, 2024 19:53:00 GMT -5
It's clear what he said. He didn't say he was Josh Allen. He was alluding to him having similar traits in that he can run and he's got a decent arm. I'm guessing he was also thinking that they're both big guys as well.
We've seen what Daniel's capable of during that limited stretch of success in he enjoyed 2022. The only question, for some of us anyway is, can he be that guy and better, consistently.
I can pull out my NFL QB guys, and coaches, and scouts and players, ex and in the league…and they can say he is trash, or a detailed what is wrong…not sure why posters use that as a backing and support system for any debate…to me it’s silly at best simply because from underwear scouts to top paid GM’s …to fans that have never put on a pad, to posters who were 4 star recruits…all have differing opinions. You, Rosey, see flowers…I see shit. He used the name Josh Allen in comparison. Not much more I can add to the puddle of Jones threads.
It makes for something for us to shoot the shit over the off-season.
Perhaps the comparison was made in part because of the Buffalo connection? Allen's game certainly improved under Daboll and has seemed to regress sans Dabes no? The guy is clearly turnover prone.
And who better to judge both these QB's than Daboll? Do you imagine the Giants assigned a value to Daniel Jones after 2022 without heavy input from Dabes?
PS - Good to see you back. Hope you are doing well.
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Aris
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Post by Aris on Mar 27, 2024 20:56:51 GMT -5
I can pull out my NFL QB guys, and coaches, and scouts and players, ex and in the league…and they can say he is trash, or a detailed what is wrong…not sure why posters use that as a backing and support system for any debate…to me it’s silly at best simply because from underwear scouts to top paid GM’s …to fans that have never put on a pad, to posters who were 4 star recruits…all have differing opinions. You, Rosey, see flowers…I see shit. He used the name Josh Allen in comparison. Not much more I can add to the puddle of Jones threads.
It makes for something for us to shoot the shit over the off-season.
Perhaps the comparison was made in part because of the Buffalo connection? Allen's game certainly improved under Daboll and has seemed to regress sans Dabes no? The guy is clearly turnover prone.
And who better to judge both these QB's than Daboll? Do you imagine the Giants assigned a value to Daniel Jones after 2022 without heavy input from Dabes?
PS - Good to see you back. Hope you are doing well. Thanks Rosey and hope all is well on your end as well....I guess we can both agree that Jones never had an OL, or great weapons and too many coaching changes.... but is also, just not that good. Now with his injuries on top of the average arm talent, we are going to give up picks, or try to ...and get the next QB. I would be shocked if the Giants stood pat, and took a WR without at least attempting to get a QB Wouldn't it be nice to have a QB with more talent than Jones.... be coached up by Daboll?
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Post by Nite on Mar 28, 2024 8:01:13 GMT -5
Kewl
Now we need to hear from:
- Phil Simms
- Chris Simms
- The SIMS v. 1 - 4
- Simon Templeton (I have no idea where that came from)
- Frank Gifford
- Mel Kiper Sr (I don't trust Jr anymore)
- All NFL GMs from 1970 - 1989 wether deceased or not
- Bill Belicheck - his opinions certainly has helped in the past
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Post by vinnie on Mar 28, 2024 13:16:55 GMT -5
good props for DJ but you are wrong Kyle. Even I have now finally seen the light. The kids has talent for sure but he just cant put it all together and has an injury history. I'm with you here for me it's more how damaged he might be mentally and physically. Based on how he played at Duke, he’s been mentally damaged since college. Nothing has changed after 5 years in the league except regression from bad to worse.
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