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Post by Rangers13 on Apr 16, 2024 21:53:22 GMT -5
Could have very easily had Mahommes if Mara and Reese would have listened to Ben McAdoo pounding the table for The Goat Great call, years later. he actually called for Mahomes before the draft.
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Post by Martin on Apr 16, 2024 22:00:29 GMT -5
Even Mahommes would have sucked on the Giants. That's how bad its been.
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Post by bluebuddha on Apr 17, 2024 7:59:45 GMT -5
Even Mahommes would have sucked on the Giants. That's how bad its been. I don't think Mahommes would have sucked on the Giants. I think it might have been more closer to a Detroit Lions situation with Stafford where QB isn't really the problem.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 19, 2024 15:34:08 GMT -5
The thing people overlook in a huge way with KC is that they had the #2 ranked Defense. They have the Patriots build going on. A great QB and a great defense.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 19, 2024 15:40:47 GMT -5
All of these "ways" are the same thing and not without mistakes. Hit on more draft picks/FA than your opponents, hope your players stay consistently healthy and have some good luck along the way. Schoen has been average at best on the first part and health/luck is what got them a playoff win in 2022. Curious about the "average at best" comment. What's that based on? His first two drafts have been very good and I think his free agent signings/trades have been great. I seriously doubt 16 other teams are doing that much better than him in the last two seasons.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 19, 2024 15:43:36 GMT -5
he actually called for Mahomes before the draft. Yes he did want Mahomes before the draft but Mara and Reese didn't ignore him they tried to trade up to take him but couldn't so they had to stay put and watch him go right before them.
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Post by Rangers13 on Apr 19, 2024 15:47:44 GMT -5
he actually called for Mahomes before the draft. Yes he did want Mahomes before the draft but Mara and Reese didn't ignore him they tried to trade up to take him but couldn't so they had to stay put and watch him go right before them. then how did KC move up from behind the Giants? Mahomes didn’t go right before the Giants. The Giants at #22 failed to move up whereas the Chiefs at #27 moved up to #10
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 19, 2024 15:59:55 GMT -5
Yes he did want Mahomes before the draft but Mara and Reese didn't ignore him they tried to trade up to take him but couldn't so they had to stay put and watch him go right before them. then how did KC move up from behind the Giants? Mahomes didn’t go right before the Giants Multiple teams tried to trade up and Buffalo could only trade with one of them. This has been widely reported for years at this point. Mac wasn't ignored, they were beat out by KC for the spot. The Saints were the team that everyone expected to take him at #11, so people trading up targeted the Bills spot.
Here's a tweet from 2017 during day 2 of the draft.
Yes, "right before" us was a bad choice of words.
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Post by Jomo on Apr 19, 2024 16:28:05 GMT -5
The thing people overlook in a huge way with KC is that they had the #2 ranked Defense. They have the Patriots build going on. A great QB and a great defense. AND coaching matters.... Reid and Spags for starters..
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Post by Rangers13 on Apr 19, 2024 16:38:49 GMT -5
then how did KC move up from behind the Giants? Mahomes didn’t go right before the Giants Multiple teams tried to trade up and Buffalo could only trade with one of them. This has been widely reported for years at this point. Mac wasn't ignored, they were beat out by KC for the spot. The Saints were the team that everyone expected to take him at #11, so people trading up targeted the Bills spot.
Here's a tweet from 2017 during day 2 of the draft.
Yes, "right before" us was a bad choice of words.
so many think there was zero proof Mac wanted to trade up for Mahomes to this day. Truth is he did and he knew Eli was done. Sad part is, from 5 spots behind the Giants they were beaten out for a HOF player. Next year they blamed Mac and it was on to Gettleman. We never recovered.
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Post by Nick6475 on Apr 19, 2024 16:39:38 GMT -5
All of these "ways" are the same thing and not without mistakes. Hit on more draft picks/FA than your opponents, hope your players stay consistently healthy and have some good luck along the way. Schoen has been average at best on the first part and health/luck is what got them a playoff win in 2022. Curious about the "average at best" comment. What's that based on? His first two drafts have been very good and I think his free agent signings/trades have been great. I seriously doubt 16 other teams are doing that much better than him in the last two seasons. I think he has made some good picks and some that have not worked out so far, so that equates to average for me. To be fair, it's hard to really judge him on draft picks because it's only been two years, but we can judge how they have worked out so far. His best picks are Banks and KT so far. He's basically 0-4 on OL unless you want to include JMS as good but he wasn't anything special last year. The two WRs he drafted can't stay healthy (Robinson) or is limited in his route tree (Hyatt). The rest haven't really showed much of anything, maybe some potential in Bellinger, Belton, Flott, and Riley. From a FA stand point Okereke is really the only guy that stands out to me. Waller didn't work out. The OL he brought in were blah. Parris Campbell did nothing. That's what average at best sounds like to me.
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Post by vinnie on Apr 19, 2024 18:08:58 GMT -5
All of these "ways" are the same thing and not without mistakes. Hit on more draft picks/FA than your opponents, hope your players stay consistently healthy and have some good luck along the way. Schoen has been average at best on the first part and health/luck is what got them a playoff win in 2022. Curious about the "average at best" comment. What's that based on? His first two drafts have been very good and I think his free agent signings/trades have been great. I seriously doubt 16 other teams are doing that much better than him in the last two seasons. Lol @ “his first two drafts have been very good”. Nicks6475 already gave very valid reasons so need to go over those other than anyone who whiffs as bad as he did with Neal, a top 10 pick, should never be labeled as “very good”.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 19, 2024 20:17:33 GMT -5
so many think there was zero proof Mac wanted to trade up for Mahomes to this day. Truth is he did and he knew Eli was done. Sad part is, from 5 spots behind the Giants they were beaten out for a HOF player. Next year they blamed Mac and it was on to Gettleman. We never recovered. The evidence is massive but we know people don't want to see what they don't want. Easier to just deny Mac credit. I personally don't think he was a very good HC and have no clue how Mahommes would have turned out if we took him. Somewhere between better than Jones and worse than he is today lol. Mac lost that team and needed to go. I was a fan of Reese and wanted him to stick around, this place hated him and wanted him gone.
I think most Giants fans like Schoen and Daboll though, so we're in a good place now....I think.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 19, 2024 20:28:25 GMT -5
Curious about the "average at best" comment. What's that based on? His first two drafts have been very good and I think his free agent signings/trades have been great. I seriously doubt 16 other teams are doing that much better than him in the last two seasons. I think he has made some good picks and some that have not worked out so far, so that equates to average for me. To be fair, it's hard to really judge him on draft picks because it's only been two years, but we can judge how they have worked out so far. His best picks are Banks and KT so far. He's basically 0-4 on OL unless you want to include JMS as good but he wasn't anything special last year. The two WRs he drafted can't stay healthy (Robinson) or is limited in his route tree (Hyatt). The rest haven't really showed much of anything, maybe some potential in Bellinger, Belton, Flott, and Riley. From a FA stand point Okereke is really the only guy that stands out to me. Waller didn't work out. The OL he brought in were blah. Parris Campbell did nothing. That's what average at best sounds like to me. You're putting way too much stock on mid/late round draft picks and 1 year contract free agents. His first year he brought in Glowinski and Taylor, everyone else was a 1 year deal to fill holes. Taylor was a really good back up. Glowinski was not good but filled a need hole on a discount. Ward and Breida were fantastic for their price. You forgot Flott and EZ, mid rounders providing quality minutes (aside from injuries). Bellinger, Belton, and McFadden all quality players for round 4/5.
Okereke is the only multi year deal I think in 2023, he is amazing. Nacho and A'Shawn played great for their price. Got Simmons for nothing. Waller is a miss but we didn't give up much. Early to tell on that draft but I don't think there's a single bad player (for their draft position) in the class.
Bottom line is if you think some good picks and some that don't work out is average then every GM is average because they all miss on picks.
Who's the best GM in the league, we can compare their last two years.
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Post by TEM on Apr 20, 2024 1:06:14 GMT -5
I think he has made some good picks and some that have not worked out so far, so that equates to average for me. To be fair, it's hard to really judge him on draft picks because it's only been two years, but we can judge how they have worked out so far. His best picks are Banks and KT so far. He's basically 0-4 on OL unless you want to include JMS as good but he wasn't anything special last year. The two WRs he drafted can't stay healthy (Robinson) or is limited in his route tree (Hyatt). The rest haven't really showed much of anything, maybe some potential in Bellinger, Belton, Flott, and Riley. From a FA stand point Okereke is really the only guy that stands out to me. Waller didn't work out. The OL he brought in were blah. Parris Campbell did nothing. That's what average at best sounds like to me. You're putting way too much stock on mid/late round draft picks and 1 year contract free agents. His first year he brought in Glowinski and Taylor, everyone else was a 1 year deal to fill holes. Taylor was a really good back up. Glowinski was not good but filled a need hole on a discount. Ward and Breida were fantastic for their price. You forgot Flott and EZ, mid rounders providing quality minutes (aside from injuries). Bellinger, Belton, and McFadden all quality players for round 4/5.
Okereke is the only multi year deal I think in 2023, he is amazing. Nacho and A'Shawn played great for their price. Got Simmons for nothing. Waller is a miss but we didn't give up much. Early to tell on that draft but I don't think there's a single bad player (for their draft position) in the class.
Bottom line is if you think some good picks and some that don't work out is average then every GM is average because they all miss on picks.
Who's the best GM in the league, we can compare their last two years.
I am not a fan of judging a GM's performance by Players A,B,C...... Players do not win championships. Never will. What wins is a number of tactors. Chemistry, Worling as a unit, coaching, depth, health, luck..... A team that wins it all is a difficult combination to crack. A lot of the consensus is that Belichick was a horrible judger of talent in the draft. Those pundits can say what they want. But most fans and talking heads do not even understand what makes one GM win and another meh. I think it boils down to one quality. A good GM has timing. He feels, knows, has a premonition or whatever you choose to call it. What he needs and at what point of the offseason he will fill that need. BB was a master of that. It was rare to get the great player. He filled needs with good enough when required. He has the NFL and AFC championship to quantify his team building accomplishments. Yeah, he Brady. He still had to place the support around him to win. He did it for 2 decades.
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Post by giantbob71 on Apr 20, 2024 3:07:12 GMT -5
You're putting way too much stock on mid/late round draft picks and 1 year contract free agents. His first year he brought in Glowinski and Taylor, everyone else was a 1 year deal to fill holes. Taylor was a really good back up. Glowinski was not good but filled a need hole on a discount. Ward and Breida were fantastic for their price. You forgot Flott and EZ, mid rounders providing quality minutes (aside from injuries). Bellinger, Belton, and McFadden all quality players for round 4/5.
Okereke is the only multi year deal I think in 2023, he is amazing. Nacho and A'Shawn played great for their price. Got Simmons for nothing. Waller is a miss but we didn't give up much. Early to tell on that draft but I don't think there's a single bad player (for their draft position) in the class.
Bottom line is if you think some good picks and some that don't work out is average then every GM is average because they all miss on picks.
Who's the best GM in the league, we can compare their last two years.
I am not a fan of judging a GM's performance by Players A,B,C...... Players do not win championships. Never will. What wins is a number of tactors. Chemistry, Worling as a unit, coaching, depth, health, luck..... A team that wins it all is a difficult combination to crack. A lot of the consensus is that Belichick was a horrible judger of talent in the draft. Those pundits can say what they want. But most fans and talking heads do not even understand what makes one GM win and another meh. I think it boils down to one quality. A good GM has timing. He feels, knows, has a premonition or whatever you choose to call it. What he needs and at what point of the offseason he will fill that need. BB was a master of that. It was rare to get the great player. He filled needs with good enough when required. He has the NFL and AFC championship to quantify his team building accomplishments. Yeah, he Brady. He still had to place the support around him to win. He did it for 2 decades. Pretty vague? Using quality as your standard, how would you grade Schoen? Wouldn't you have to grade the quality of each decision to determine overall quality? The whole is the sum of it's parts, no?
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Post by TEM on Apr 20, 2024 7:11:46 GMT -5
I am not a fan of judging a GM's performance by Players A,B,C...... Players do not win championships. Never will. What wins is a number of tactors. Chemistry, Worling as a unit, coaching, depth, health, luck..... A team that wins it all is a difficult combination to crack. A lot of the consensus is that Belichick was a horrible judger of talent in the draft. Those pundits can say what they want. But most fans and talking heads do not even understand what makes one GM win and another meh. I think it boils down to one quality. A good GM has timing. He feels, knows, has a premonition or whatever you choose to call it. What he needs and at what point of the offseason he will fill that need. BB was a master of that. It was rare to get the great player. He filled needs with good enough when required. He has the NFL and AFC championship to quantify his team building accomplishments. Yeah, he Brady. He still had to place the support around him to win. He did it for 2 decades. Pretty vague? Using quality as your standard, how would you grade Schoen? Wouldn't you have to grade the quality of each decision to determine overall quality? The whole is the sum of it's parts, no? Whatever.
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Post by shocknaweny on Apr 20, 2024 9:32:03 GMT -5
he actually called for Mahomes before the draft. Yes he did want Mahomes before the draft but Mara and Reese didn't ignore him they tried to trade up to take him but couldn't so they had to stay put and watch him go right before them. meaning they refused to pay the Bills price which is dumb .... could not have cost much
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Post by giantbob71 on Apr 20, 2024 15:16:52 GMT -5
Pretty vague? Using quality as your standard, how would you grade Schoen? Wouldn't you have to grade the quality of each decision to determine overall quality? The whole is the sum of it's parts, no? Whatever. It's a serious question? Even the same GM can be good and bad in the same career. BB wasn't quality in Cleveland or NE without Brady. You can say the Thibs and Banks picks were quality, but how would you rank Schoens overall performance? I dunno...I just think every move a GM makes should be judged on how it works out. At the end, the good is weighed against the bad, and that determines his fate. Hell, even a HOFer, like BB, was fired when his decisions failed.
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Post by TEM on Apr 20, 2024 16:51:18 GMT -5
It's a serious question? Even the same GM can be good and bad in the same career. BB wasn't quality in Cleveland or NE without Brady. You can say the Thibs and Banks picks were quality, but how would you rank Schoens overall performance? I dunno...I just think every move a GM makes should be judged on how it works out. At the end, the good is weighed against the bad, and that determines his fate. Hell, even a HOFer, like BB, was fired when his decisions failed. Most GMs use this approach. OMG we need to plug the holes in the dam. That maybe works for a season. Never produces championships. Team building is very linear process, ABCDEF... Not FRDTAO...... To be able to construct a team in the orderly fashion that is required. It takes timing and knowing when to pick and who to pick. It takes insight and knowledge to know what talent you have and what you need to advance the proceed. Hole plugging is prescribed method. But ineffective and usually takes longer than the GM has. Oline Dline Secondary EDGE QB RB ILB Ball catchers. That should be the order of importance.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 20, 2024 20:27:33 GMT -5
Yes he did want Mahomes before the draft but Mara and Reese didn't ignore him they tried to trade up to take him but couldn't so they had to stay put and watch him go right before them. meaning they refused to pay the Bills price which is dumb .... could not have cost much We have no idea what the conversation was or how it went down, what offers were made and then countered etc.
Bottom line is the Giants didn't ignore Mcadoo, they tried to get up to 10th to get Mahommes.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 20, 2024 20:31:26 GMT -5
Most GMs use this approach. OMG we need to plug the holes in the dam. That maybe works for a season. Never produces championships. Team building is very linear process, ABCDEF... Not FRDTAO...... To be able to construct a team in the orderly fashion that is required. It takes timing and knowing when to pick and who to pick. It takes insight and knowledge to know what talent you have and what you need to advance the proceed. Hole plugging is prescribed method. But ineffective and usually takes longer than the GM has. Oline Dline Secondary EDGE QB RB ILB Ball catchers. That should be the order of importance. I don't agree with Giantbob but you're completely wrong here TEM. If what you're saying here is true, "team building is linear", then the successful method to accomplish it would be known and everyone would follow it. The opposite is true. It's not linear at all. This is why each SB winning team you look at is completely different and built in very different ways. The fact you have "ball catchers" as the least important part is mind blowing.
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Post by TEM on Apr 21, 2024 5:37:03 GMT -5
Most GMs use this approach. OMG we need to plug the holes in the dam. That maybe works for a season. Never produces championships. Team building is very linear process, ABCDEF... Not FRDTAO...... To be able to construct a team in the orderly fashion that is required. It takes timing and knowing when to pick and who to pick. It takes insight and knowledge to know what talent you have and what you need to advance the proceed. Hole plugging is prescribed method. But ineffective and usually takes longer than the GM has. Oline Dline Secondary EDGE QB RB ILB Ball catchers. That should be the order of importance. I don't agree with Giantbob but you're completely wrong here TEM. If what you're saying here is true, "team building is linear", then the successful method to accomplish it would be known and everyone would follow it. The opposite is true. It's not linear at all. This is why each SB winning team you look at is completely different and built in very different ways. The fact you have "ball catchers" as the least important part is mind blowing. It is not you cannot win without an online that can run the ball or pass protect. #1 Without a D-line that can stop the run and close the pocket, #2 Without a stout secondary, The pass rush will be ineffective. The QB will have the ball out in a sneeze. Now we are getting into the middle of the build. With your secondary and interior D- and O-lines in place.
Now you can get an effective edge rusher that can pressure the QB. The good coverage for the extra second makes a world of difference. A rookie QB can benefit from a stout O-line. Rookies tend to hold the ball too long. A good Pass blocking group will negate that issue. When the O-line is pushing guys out of the way. You can use any running back to get 3 or 4. With the QB having time. Even with #2 and #3 WRs. He can get the ball down the field. Now you put the finishing touches on the team.
Go get a RB that has a 2nd gear when he gets past LBs Go get that stud MLB in FA that can cover and Blitz, Last Go get a stud TE and #1 WR That is exactly how you build s team in order of importance (A 4-year process) Depending on the existing talent or lack of. It is a linear process and has to be. Because it very semiotic. You must have A so B can thrive. If you have B and no A . B sucks. Once those first 3 units are built everything else is interchangeable. Including the QB. The first 2 or 3 things that should be don when a New GM take over a bad team. Trade the Stud edge rusher, RB and #1 WR. Because they are albatrosses to a build. The take up cap space and never have the support they need to be effective.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 21, 2024 19:27:07 GMT -5
It is not you cannot win without an online that can run the ball or pass protect. #1 Without a D-line that can stop the run and close the pocket, #2 Without a stout secondary, The pass rush will be ineffective. The QB will have the ball out in a sneeze. Now we are getting into the middle of the build. If what you're saying is true then name the teams that have done it that way?
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Post by myronguyton29 on Apr 22, 2024 9:14:49 GMT -5
This past Super Bowl showed us the two paths to building a team. 1. The KC Model Do everything you can do to get a great QB and let him overcome any other weaknesses on your team.....AKA Patrick Mahomes. 2. The SF Model Build a team through the draft on both sides of the ball and then bring in a game manager type QB who can get the ball to your playmakers, and minimize mistakes......AKA Brock Purdey. Both can work.....But what should we do? We don't have a great QB nor do we seem to have any real prospects to get one. So I say bring on the "SF Model". Our FO has had a fine off season it seems to me by bringing in solid O linemen. They traded for Brian Burns who is a monster on D. I say draft Rome Odunze or Malik Nabers and keep building our team outside the QB. If they can somehow find a good QB in the draft that would be great. But outside that, build the team and have a QB who can get the ball to our playmakers and minimize mistakes. Patrick Mahomes's don't grow on trees. I may be grasping at straws but I think this FO and coaching staff could pull it off. Am I delusional? Nope I've been saying that for some time. Do what the 49ers have done or try anyway lol and it won't be so much of a need to hit on a top 5 qb but we can get that qb to play like one with the suppporting cast around him................
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Post by myronguyton29 on Apr 22, 2024 9:17:47 GMT -5
you said 2 ways to build a team. SF paid more and I suppose I didn't make myself clear. Yes, The Niners traded up for what they thought was a franchise QB. But that's not what they got. So they went to plan B........then plan C. Plan C fell in their lap. But all that is really irrelevant. The point is that the model they have in place seems the best course for our team. Don't waste the 6th pick on the 5th best QB in the draft. Use it on the best player, and that would be the best WR left on the board. Build a team of weapons on both sides of the ball and drop in a functional QB who can get the ball to those guys on offense and minimize mistakes.
It seems our only choice. BINGO, AMIGO...............
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