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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 3, 2024 8:56:21 GMT -5
The Giants are in a different place than the other 3 teams in the division.
It's not good feeling but it is a fact, this was never gonna be easy to fix I think they have made progress and are one of the youngest teams in the NFL.
Schoen / Daboll need to get their QB who knows maybe Drew Lock can buy them some time maybe he becomes Geno or Baker if his head is in it, he has the physical talent.
If not they will be trying to trade up for a QB next year again.
They have a lot of young players going into year 2 from last draft and six more who will have some role on this 2024 team think we have a couple more years to go.
These kids are young and in the infancy of their NFL careers it takes some time for them to grow the OL to gell and guys to learn a new D we might be picking high again.
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Post by cdngfan on May 3, 2024 10:18:51 GMT -5
Even if you think any team can be turned around in 4 years, the fact of the matter is there’s more evidence of bad teams taking longer to transform than there is of bad teams transforming in that timeframe.
If you took a poll of fans, the DJ contract, the horrible 23’ season, and mediocre draft pick performance would be the top reasons for JS and Dabs to feel their seats getting hot.
But Mara’s recent comments around DJ tells me he doesn’t see that contract as an issue. If Mara has the opinion that 4 years is the minimum about of time to turn the Giants around vs the maximum it should take then the bar for JS getting extended is going to be alot lower than a lot of fans want.
IMO, he’s fixing a roster and an FO and a gridlocked cap. It was never going to be quick or smooth.
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Post by vinnie on May 3, 2024 10:26:54 GMT -5
As I said, unless DJ turns into a franchise QB this season or we overpay for an average vet QB that can’t win playoff games then we’ll most likely have to force a QB pick next year and/or give up more draft capital than this year. Rookie QB needs at least a year to develop and if he’s good then we’re looking at 2026 at a minimum for when we’ll potentially have a real QB.
My entire “prediction” is based on us picking 10th or later. If we suck so bad that we’re picking top 5 then that’s quite a bit different when it comes to the QB situation. If we’re better this year, which we should be, the good news is we’re moving in the right direction but the bad news is we’ll be stuck with DJ for another few years or force a QB pick or give up a lot of future picks. If we suck, the bad news is we’re stagnating or regressing but the good news is we won’t have to give up as much for a QB or maybe nothing at all.
BTW, of course QB’s can emerge but as of now, I’m not impressed with most of these QB’s in 2025.
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Post by McCherry on May 3, 2024 11:10:39 GMT -5
Even if you think any team can be turned around in 4 years, the fact of the matter is there’s more evidence of bad teams taking longer to transform than there is of bad teams transforming in that timeframe. If you took a poll of fans, the DJ contract, the horrible 23’ season, and mediocre draft pick performance would be the top reasons for JS and Dabs to feel their seats getting hot. But Mara’s recent comments around DJ tells me he doesn’t see that contract as an issue. If Mara has the opinion that 4 years is the minimum about of time to turn the Giants around vs the maximum it should take then the bar for JS getting extended is going to be alot lower than a lot of fans want. IMO, he’s fixing a roster and an FO and a gridlocked cap. It was never going to be quick or smooth. The contract is not an issue for Daboll/Schoen. They didn't pay him. Again, there was no way they weren't signing Jones after the '22 season... None. Mara can't put them on them after the results. Even the contract is slightly above average QB money. The lack of talent and the breakdowns around Jones is the reason they are on the hot seat. Rightfully so. Josh Ezeudu at LT? Now, who know if Jones will ever recover mentally or physically. They're doing what they can, but you can't build a team with an answer at QB. Washington spent years finding that out.
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Post by cdngfan on May 3, 2024 11:32:52 GMT -5
Even if you think any team can be turned around in 4 years, the fact of the matter is there’s more evidence of bad teams taking longer to transform than there is of bad teams transforming in that timeframe. If you took a poll of fans, the DJ contract, the horrible 23’ season, and mediocre draft pick performance would be the top reasons for JS and Dabs to feel their seats getting hot. But Mara’s recent comments around DJ tells me he doesn’t see that contract as an issue. If Mara has the opinion that 4 years is the minimum about of time to turn the Giants around vs the maximum it should take then the bar for JS getting extended is going to be alot lower than a lot of fans want. IMO, he’s fixing a roster and an FO and a gridlocked cap. It was never going to be quick or smooth. The contract is not an issue for Daboll/Schoen. They didn't pay him. Again, there was no way they weren't signing Jones after the '22 season... None. Mara can't put them on them after the results. Even the contract is slightly average QB money. The lack of talent and the breakdowns around Jones is the reason they are on the hot seat. Rightfully so. Josh Ezeudu at LT? Now, who know if Jones will ever recover mentally or physically. They're doing what they can, but you can't build a team with an answer at QB. Washington spent years finding that out. agree with all of that. But I think if they didn’t have a mic in front of their face, JS and Dabs would say that DJ and Lock is their answer at QB for now, even if it’s a flawed answer. The truth is most answers at QB are flawed. Stafford, Mayfield, Watson, Smith, even Trevor Lawrence, Dak, Kyler Murray. None of those guys seem to meet the expectations placed on them. I think T Lawrence can get better and better but right now he can’t put that team on his shoulders they way you expect a QB to. Again, you’re right, you need an answer at QB. But the question matters. A QB you can win a championship with or a QB that can consistently get you into the playoffs are very different QBs. I think between Lock and DJ, there’s enough talent to get us into the playoffs. And getting us into the playoffs in 24’ or 25’ is probably the goal. I sound like a broken record. This has more to do with the o line than QB. We don’t have a QB that can make up for the o line. We probably have a QB that can function behind a decent o line.
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Post by McCherry on May 3, 2024 12:09:14 GMT -5
The contract is not an issue for Daboll/Schoen. They didn't pay him. Again, there was no way they weren't signing Jones after the '22 season... None. Mara can't put them on them after the results. Even the contract is slightly average QB money. The lack of talent and the breakdowns around Jones is the reason they are on the hot seat. Rightfully so. Josh Ezeudu at LT? Now, who know if Jones will ever recover mentally or physically. They're doing what they can, but you can't build a team with an answer at QB. Washington spent years finding that out. agree with all of that. But I think if they didn’t have a mic in front of their face, JS and Dabs would say that DJ and Lock is their answer at QB for now, even if it’s a flawed answer. The truth is most answers at QB are flawed. Stafford, Mayfield, Watson, Smith, even Trevor Lawrence, Dak, Kyler Murray. None of those guys seem to meet the expectations placed on them. I think T Lawrence can get better and better but right now he can’t put that team on his shoulders they way you expect a QB to. Again, you’re right, you need an answer at QB. But the question matters. A QB you can win a championship with or a QB that can consistently get you into the playoffs are very different QBs. I think between Lock and DJ, there’s enough talent to get us into the playoffs. And getting us into the playoffs in 24’ or 25’ is probably the goal. I sound like a broken record. This has more to do with the o line than QB. We don’t have a QB that can make up for the o line. We probably have a QB that can function behind a decent o line. Maybe. They said that about Eli before he actually did it. Previously, his post season QBR was one of the worst in NFL history. There are way too many other factors involved. You're not a Superbowl QB until you are. Before we go there with Jones, I get what you're saying. Let's just win some games. Jones showed he can do that. I think most of us would be happy if that were the case.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 3, 2024 13:10:20 GMT -5
As I said, unless DJ turns into a franchise QB this season or we overpay for an average vet QB that can’t win playoff games then we’ll most likely have to force a QB pick next year and/or give up more draft capital than this year. Rookie QB needs at least a year to develop and if he’s good then we’re looking at 2026 at a minimum for when we’ll potentially have a real QB. My entire “prediction” is based on us picking 10th or later. If we suck so bad that we’re picking top 5 then that’s quite a bit different when it comes to the QB situation. If we’re better this year, which we should be, the good news is we’re moving in the right direction but the bad news is we’ll be stuck with DJ for another few years or force a QB pick or give up a lot of future picks. If we suck, the bad news is we’re stagnating or regressing but the good news is we won’t have to give up as much for a QB or maybe nothing at all. BTW, of course QB’s can emerge but as of now, I’m not impressed with most of these QB’s in 2025. We would have been forcing the pick if we drafted McCarthy Nix or Penix and gave a pretty substantial offer this year to get up the board that was turned down. I don't think it really matters the best the roster is when they do draft a QB the better chance for the kid to succeed getting a #1 WR is a must for a rookie that have that now this will give them another year to build also.
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Post by krappdetector on May 3, 2024 13:18:16 GMT -5
The contract is not an issue for Daboll/Schoen. They didn't pay him. Again, there was no way they weren't signing Jones after the '22 season... None. Mara can't put them on them after the results. Even the contract is slightly average QB money. The lack of talent and the breakdowns around Jones is the reason they are on the hot seat. Rightfully so. Josh Ezeudu at LT? Now, who know if Jones will ever recover mentally or physically. They're doing what they can, but you can't build a team with an answer at QB. Washington spent years finding that out. agree with all of that. But I think if they didn’t have a mic in front of their face, JS and Dabs would say that DJ and Lock is their answer at QB for now, even if it’s a flawed answer. The truth is most answers at QB are flawed. Stafford, Mayfield, Watson, Smith, even Trevor Lawrence, Dak, Kyler Murray. None of those guys seem to meet the expectations placed on them. I think T Lawrence can get better and better but right now he can’t put that team on his shoulders they way you expect a QB to. Again, you’re right, you need an answer at QB. But the question matters. A QB you can win a championship with or a QB that can consistently get you into the playoffs are very different QBs. I think between Lock and DJ, there’s enough talent to get us into the playoffs. And getting us into the playoffs in 24’ or 25’ is probably the goal. I sound like a broken record. This has more to do with the o line than QB. We don’t have a QB that can make up for the o line. We probably have a QB that can function behind a decent o line. Because you are one of the more rational and articulate posters, cdngfan, I pose this question to you: If DJ continues to suffer an inordinate number of sacks what metric or tool would you use to determine to what degree the OL is to blame vs. the QB .. or even the playcalling? We've been going around in circles seemingly forever on this issue so I'd like to know how to arrive at an honest evaluation.
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Post by Speedman on May 3, 2024 14:17:15 GMT -5
agree with all of that. But I think if they didn’t have a mic in front of their face, JS and Dabs would say that DJ and Lock is their answer at QB for now, even if it’s a flawed answer. The truth is most answers at QB are flawed. Stafford, Mayfield, Watson, Smith, even Trevor Lawrence, Dak, Kyler Murray. None of those guys seem to meet the expectations placed on them. I think T Lawrence can get better and better but right now he can’t put that team on his shoulders they way you expect a QB to. Again, you’re right, you need an answer at QB. But the question matters. A QB you can win a championship with or a QB that can consistently get you into the playoffs are very different QBs. I think between Lock and DJ, there’s enough talent to get us into the playoffs. And getting us into the playoffs in 24’ or 25’ is probably the goal. I sound like a broken record. This has more to do with the o line than QB. We don’t have a QB that can make up for the o line. We probably have a QB that can function behind a decent o line. Because you are one of the more rational and articulate posters, cdngfan, I pose this question to you: If DJ continues to suffer an inordinate number of sacks what metric or tool would you use to determine to what degree the OL is to blame vs. the QB .. or even the playcalling? We've been going around in circles seemingly forever on this issue so I'd like to know how to arrive at an honest evaluation. If my memory is correct, the beginning of the year DJ was playing behind a line that had AT out for 7 games, a rookie center in JMS and Neal playing right tackle plus other injuries on the line. He and Barkley didn’t have a chance. Towards the end of the year when TT and DeVito were playing AT was back JMS had gained some experience and Neal was injured and replaced by Phillips who played better. I’m not ready to toss DJ aside yet.
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Post by cdngfan on May 3, 2024 14:32:01 GMT -5
agree with all of that. But I think if they didn’t have a mic in front of their face, JS and Dabs would say that DJ and Lock is their answer at QB for now, even if it’s a flawed answer. The truth is most answers at QB are flawed. Stafford, Mayfield, Watson, Smith, even Trevor Lawrence, Dak, Kyler Murray. None of those guys seem to meet the expectations placed on them. I think T Lawrence can get better and better but right now he can’t put that team on his shoulders they way you expect a QB to. Again, you’re right, you need an answer at QB. But the question matters. A QB you can win a championship with or a QB that can consistently get you into the playoffs are very different QBs. I think between Lock and DJ, there’s enough talent to get us into the playoffs. And getting us into the playoffs in 24’ or 25’ is probably the goal. I sound like a broken record. This has more to do with the o line than QB. We don’t have a QB that can make up for the o line. We probably have a QB that can function behind a decent o line. Because you are one of the more rational and articulate posters, cdngfan, I pose this question to you: If DJ continues to suffer an inordinate number of sacks what metric or tool would you use to determine to what degree the OL is to blame vs. the QB .. or even the playcalling? We've been going around in circles seemingly forever on this issue so I'd like to know how to arrive at an honest evaluation. thank you btw. I think the most important factor is Dabs and JS wanting wins more than proving anything with that DJ contract or DJ’s play. We don’t know the plays called or the protections called. But they will. If they think DJ gives them the best chance to win they’ll keep putting him out there. We hear coaches say “they’ve got to learn the playbook” and we nod our heads like we all agree but knowing that playbook really well is a huge advantage and to me it means Lock probably can’t look like he gives them the best chance to win until later in the season. It’s not really an answer to your question, but to me that’s the point. Making that evaluation requires more info than we get from Buck and Troy. My opinion? There’s no “requirement” to play DJ at all. If Lock shows he understands the playbook and looks like he’s making faster reads in practice, they’ll give him the ball.
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Post by Kruunch on May 3, 2024 21:01:43 GMT -5
Since we’re tossing back a few cold hard truths.. It’s time we chase it down with some hard reality. As the blistering heat of summer awaits us.. and the offseason is put in the books. This team is still a zip code away from being the bullies around the block. We still have more questions than a bar exam.. As hope has become our war cry.
The days of carving our name into teams feels like a distant memory. No longer are we a team to be reckoned with. There was a time facing us was a first class ticket to the ice tub. Now it’s happy hour for the opposition every Sunday from one to whenever. Patience is breathing on a vent living its last days in hospice.
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Post by krappdetector on May 3, 2024 22:21:53 GMT -5
Because you are one of the more rational and articulate posters, cdngfan, I pose this question to you: If DJ continues to suffer an inordinate number of sacks what metric or tool would you use to determine to what degree the OL is to blame vs. the QB .. or even the playcalling? We've been going around in circles seemingly forever on this issue so I'd like to know how to arrive at an honest evaluation. thank you btw. I think the most important factor is Dabs and JS wanting wins more than proving anything with that DJ contract or DJ’s play. We don’t know the plays called or the protections called. But they will. If they think DJ gives them the best chance to win they’ll keep putting him out there. We hear coaches say “they’ve got to learn the playbook” and we nod our heads like we all agree but knowing that playbook really well is a huge advantage and to me it means Lock probably can’t look like he gives them the best chance to win until later in the season. It’s not really an answer to your question, but to me that’s the point. Making that evaluation requires more info than we get from Buck and Troy. My opinion? There’s no “requirement” to play DJ at all. If Lock shows he understands the playbook and looks like he’s making faster reads in practice, they’ll give him the ball. I know it's a tough question. But last year, not using the eyeball test which is pretty subject to individual biases, and expertise (of which I have little) I searched out things like 'time to pressure' or 'time to release' and 'avg depth of target' comparing them to other teams and QBs, hoping to identify "the culprit". Clearly a failed block is an obvious fault. But sometimes free blitzers went ignored by the QB or a RB blocked air or coverage excelled so how to factor that in? Even experts disagreed with each other or changed their tune depending on the game situation, weather conditions, injuries, opponent, down and distance, etc.. There were many clues but no clear answers. All I know is if we play better we won't need those answers.And thanks for your nice response.
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Post by giantbob71 on May 4, 2024 0:52:09 GMT -5
Because you are one of the more rational and articulate posters, cdngfan, I pose this question to you: If DJ continues to suffer an inordinate number of sacks what metric or tool would you use to determine to what degree the OL is to blame vs. the QB .. or even the playcalling? We've been going around in circles seemingly forever on this issue so I'd like to know how to arrive at an honest evaluation. If my memory is correct, the beginning of the year DJ was playing behind a line that had AT out for 7 games, a rookie center in JMS and Neal playing right tackle plus other injuries on the line. He and Barkley didn’t have a chance. Towards the end of the year when TT and DeVito were playing AT was back JMS had gained some experience and Neal was injured and replaced by Phillips who played better. I’m not ready to toss DJ aside yet. The first game Taylor started, Thomas was out, and the offense was instantly better. There were multiple instances, of former QBs breaking down plays, and showing how DJ can't see blitzes and hit hot receivers. One even went so far as to say the mistakes DJ was making was "high school stuff." It cracks me up that because Geno Smith had a good year, in year 10, we now believe Lock is the answer. There's been 100s of 1st round QBs that went to other teams, and failed, but let's focus on the 1-2 crapshoots to base our hopes and predictions on, right? Not to mention, Lock has had Juedy/Sutton and DK/Lockett and couldn't get it done. Very few QBs play better in a situation with less talent. Back to the original point though...if you continuously bet on a bad QB, it will take forever to turn a franchise around...especially when you also bet on a washed up TE and do a terrible job of evaluating OLine talent. Schoen has messed up more than the DJ contract. It's probably the reason he didn't draftva OLinemen, and if Runyan does workout, it will be Schoens FIRST successful OLine move in three years. In very recent history...Stroud, Burrow, and even Tua have made their franchises successful, almost overnight. Not many, if any teams, get better running the same tired act out at the QB position. This team better win, because if they don't, there is a NATIONAL media shitstorm coming for Schoen and Daboll (that could start in November). I'll be surprised if they can survive it and don't think they should. If Schoen had a 4 year deal to begin with, maybe...but signing Schoen to an extension? Why? Maybe if JMS, Neal, Hyatt, Banks, and Wandale all improve, and Nabers kills it...but this decision is bigger than the DJ contract.
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miggs
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Post by miggs on May 4, 2024 0:54:04 GMT -5
Giants are in good position to win. Problem is that both the Eagles and commanders have better rosters.Feel very comfortable that Jones can get the job done as he did in 2022.
I know you guys like Banks, but do hope other CBs can beat him out or he plays to your expectations.
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Post by Speedman on May 4, 2024 1:15:10 GMT -5
If my memory is correct, the beginning of the year DJ was playing behind a line that had AT out for 7 games, a rookie center in JMS and Neal playing right tackle plus other injuries on the line. He and Barkley didn’t have a chance. Towards the end of the year when TT and DeVito were playing AT was back JMS had gained some experience and Neal was injured and replaced by Phillips who played better. I’m not ready to toss DJ aside yet. The first game Taylor started, Thomas was out, and the offense was instantly better. There were multiple instances, of former QBs breaking down plays, and showing how DJ can't see blitzes and hit hot receivers. One even went so far as to say the mistakes DJ was making was "high school stuff." It cracks me up that because Geno Smith had a good year, in year 10, we now believe Lock is the answer. There's been 100s of 1st round QBs that went to other teams, and failed, but let's focus on the 1-2 crapshoots to base our hopes and predictions on, right? Not to mention, Lock has had Juedy/Sutton and DK/Lockett and couldn't get it done. Very few QBs play better in a situation with less talent. Back to the original point though...if you continuously bet on a bad QB, it will take forever to turn a franchise around...especially when you also bet on a washed up TE and do a terrible job of evaluating OLine talent. Schoen has messed up more than the DJ contract. It's probably the reason he didn't draftva OLinemen, and if Runyan does workout, it will be Schoens FIRST successful OLine move in three years. In very recent history...Stroud, Burrow, and even Tua have made their franchises successful, almost overnight. Not many, if any teams, get better running the same tired act out at the QB position. This team better win, because if they don't, there is a NATIONAL media shitstorm coming for Schoen and Daboll (that could start in November). I'll be surprised if they can survive it and don't think they should. If Schoen had a 4 year deal to begin with, maybe...but signing Schoen to an extension? Why? Maybe if JMS, Neal, Hyatt, Banks, and Wandale all improve, and Nabers kills it...but this decision is bigger than the DJ contract. What QB would you have wanted to start this year?
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Post by GameTime on May 4, 2024 5:18:16 GMT -5
As it was it is again..........They suck until they don't.
The reasons are varied and debatable.
The bottom line was 2022, Schoen and Dabs first season, saw more wins than expected and a playoff win. Looked to be a very good start to their tenure. Nothing was "fixed" at that point but work was off to a positive start. Then came 2023. They got their asses kicked from the opening. It was unexpected for most. Even of you thought they were not going to be good in 2023 they were beyond that expectation. Injuries and poor performance. It was a shit show once again. Then the after math of dissention in the ranks with some of the staff and the whole Barkley thing.
I have no idea what is going to happen in 2024.
They suck until they don't
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Post by Roswell on May 4, 2024 6:29:49 GMT -5
The contract is not an issue for Daboll/Schoen. They didn't pay him. Again, there was no way they weren't signing Jones after the '22 season... None. Mara can't put them on them after the results. Even the contract is slightly average QB money. The lack of talent and the breakdowns around Jones is the reason they are on the hot seat. Rightfully so. Josh Ezeudu at LT? Now, who know if Jones will ever recover mentally or physically. They're doing what they can, but you can't build a team with an answer at QB. Washington spent years finding that out. agree with all of that. But I think if they didn’t have a mic in front of their face, JS and Dabs would say that DJ and Lock is their answer at QB for now, even if it’s a flawed answer. The truth is most answers at QB are flawed. Stafford, Mayfield, Watson, Smith, even Trevor Lawrence, Dak, Kyler Murray. None of those guys seem to meet the expectations placed on them. I think T Lawrence can get better and better but right now he can’t put that team on his shoulders they way you expect a QB to. Again, you’re right, you need an answer at QB. But the question matters. A QB you can win a championship with or a QB that can consistently get you into the playoffs are very different QBs. I think between Lock and DJ, there’s enough talent to get us into the playoffs. And getting us into the playoffs in 24’ or 25’ is probably the goal. I sound like a broken record. This has more to do with the o line than QB. We don’t have a QB that can make up for the o line. We probably have a QB that can function behind a decent o line. As it was constituted for the first half of the season, there were very few QBs in the history of the NFL that would’ve been able to elevate the Giants to victory, all things considered. Just about all you need to know… In their first 2 home games of the 2023 season the Giants allowed 18 sacks. They followed that up with another 7 sacks in the next game. All tolled, 30 sacks in their first 5 games. But the 18 sacks in their first to home games is likely a record that might stand forever for Oline futility. Sandwiched in between that was the Cardinal game with the great comeback and a second game on the road 4 days later in SF. They were historically horrendous.
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Post by cdngfan on May 4, 2024 6:45:17 GMT -5
agree with all of that. But I think if they didn’t have a mic in front of their face, JS and Dabs would say that DJ and Lock is their answer at QB for now, even if it’s a flawed answer. The truth is most answers at QB are flawed. Stafford, Mayfield, Watson, Smith, even Trevor Lawrence, Dak, Kyler Murray. None of those guys seem to meet the expectations placed on them. I think T Lawrence can get better and better but right now he can’t put that team on his shoulders they way you expect a QB to. Again, you’re right, you need an answer at QB. But the question matters. A QB you can win a championship with or a QB that can consistently get you into the playoffs are very different QBs. I think between Lock and DJ, there’s enough talent to get us into the playoffs. And getting us into the playoffs in 24’ or 25’ is probably the goal. I sound like a broken record. This has more to do with the o line than QB. We don’t have a QB that can make up for the o line. We probably have a QB that can function behind a decent o line. As it was constituted for the first half of the season, there were very few QBs in the history of the NFL that would’ve been able to elevate the Giants to victory, all things considered. Just about all you need to know… In their first 2 home games of the 2023 season the Giants allowed 18 sacks. A record that might stand forever for Oline futility. Sandwiched in between that was the Cardinal game with the great comeback and the game on the road 4 days later in SF. They were historically horrendous. absolutely agree. Without getting all “mathy”, it’s a misunderstanding of probability. In the last 10 years there’s been about 100-ish QBs drafted, there’s been maybe 7 that can overcome the roster issues the Giants have. I keep using Buffalo as an example, 35 years passed between Jim Kelly and Josh Allen. Finding a “Josh Allen” QB is a fluke with all due respect. It makes very little sense to me to anchor franchise development on a fluke turning out. It’s not an argument to NOT draft a QB. I would have been fine if they moved up and got Maye. Make that call if you believe in it. But what’s the probability you get a 22’ like season out of Jones if the line is healthy and functional? Probably pretty good. Even in 22’ he didn’t have time for deep routes and he was throwing to James and Hodgins. Without one of those rare game changing QBs, you can’t skip “competent” to get to great. We’re trying to be competent, and Jones is capable of that with a competent line. He won’t beat the Lions or SF in the playoffs, but he can get us there. That’s good enough for now. Incidentally that’s the strategy of most teams right now. Dallas, TB, LA, Atlanta, Minn with Cousins or JJ. None of those QBs are winning a duel with a superstar QB. You’re betting on luck helping you because you’re in the mix.
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Post by Roswell on May 4, 2024 6:52:03 GMT -5
As it was constituted for the first half of the season, there were very few QBs in the history of the NFL that would’ve been able to elevate the Giants to victory, all things considered. Just about all you need to know… In their first 2 home games of the 2023 season the Giants allowed 18 sacks. A record that might stand forever for Oline futility. Sandwiched in between that was the Cardinal game with the great comeback and the game on the road 4 days later in SF. They were historically horrendous. absolutely agree. Without getting all “mathy”, it’s a misunderstanding of probability. In the last 10 years there’s been about 100-ish QBs drafted, there’s been maybe 7 that can overcome the roster issues the Giants have. I keep using Buffalo as an example, 35 years passed between Jim Kelly and Josh Allen. Finding a “Josh Allen” QB is a fluke with all due respect. It makes very little sense to me to anchor franchise development on a fluke turning out. It’s not an argument to NOT draft a QB. I would have been fine if they moved up and got Maye. Make that call if you believe in it. But what’s the probability you get a 22’ like season out of Jones if the line is healthy and functional? Probably pretty good. Even in 22’ he didn’t have time for deep routes and he was throwing to James and Hodgins. Without one of those rare game changing QBs, you can’t skip “competent” to get to great. We’re trying to be competent, and Jones is capable of that with a competent line. He won’t beat the Lions or SF in the playoffs, but he can get us there. That’s good enough for now. I’ve learned 3 things from watching the 2023 Giants and other teams. 1. A great Oline coach is huge. Just like a great goalie coach is huge in hockey. 2. A team shouldn’t draft a QB until they can protect him. 3. With very few exceptions, a rookie QB should redshirt a year, learn the system and get comfortable. Otherwise they run the increased risk of failing. Look at all the QB talent that’s been wasted since teams have been rushing QBs into the lineup before they and their Oline are ready.
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mendy
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Post by mendy on May 4, 2024 7:50:54 GMT -5
agree with all of that. But I think if they didn’t have a mic in front of their face, JS and Dabs would say that DJ and Lock is their answer at QB for now, even if it’s a flawed answer. The truth is most answers at QB are flawed. Stafford, Mayfield, Watson, Smith, even Trevor Lawrence, Dak, Kyler Murray. None of those guys seem to meet the expectations placed on them. I think T Lawrence can get better and better but right now he can’t put that team on his shoulders they way you expect a QB to. Again, you’re right, you need an answer at QB. But the question matters. A QB you can win a championship with or a QB that can consistently get you into the playoffs are very different QBs. I think between Lock and DJ, there’s enough talent to get us into the playoffs. And getting us into the playoffs in 24’ or 25’ is probably the goal. I sound like a broken record. This has more to do with the o line than QB. We don’t have a QB that can make up for the o line. We probably have a QB that can function behind a decent o line. As it was constituted for the first half of the season, there were very few QBs in the history of the NFL that would’ve been able to elevate the Giants to victory, all things considered. Just about all you need to know… In their first 2 home games of the 2023 season the Giants allowed 18 sacks. They followed that up with another 7 sacks in the next game. All tolled, 30 sacks in their first 5 games. But the 18 sacks in their first to home games is likely a record that might stand forever for Oline futility. Sandwiched in between that was the Cardinal game with the great comeback and a second game on the road 4 days later in SF. They were historically horrendous. If I can add Seattle 11 sacks -67 sac yards a Monday night game. 6 days later Miami 7 sacks -22 sac yards , a Sunday game. 18 sacks in 6 days .
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Post by bluebuddha on May 4, 2024 8:21:16 GMT -5
As it was constituted for the first half of the season, there were very few QBs in the history of the NFL that would’ve been able to elevate the Giants to victory, all things considered. Just about all you need to know… In their first 2 home games of the 2023 season the Giants allowed 18 sacks. They followed that up with another 7 sacks in the next game. All tolled, 30 sacks in their first 5 games. But the 18 sacks in their first to home games is likely a record that might stand forever for Oline futility. Sandwiched in between that was the Cardinal game with the great comeback and a second game on the road 4 days later in SF. They were historically horrendous. If I can add Seattle 11 sacks -67 sac yards a Monday night game. 6 days later Miami 7 sacks -22 sac yards , a Sunday game. 18 sacks in 6 days . Interesting the sacks started trending downwards after DJs injury.
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Post by Morehead State on May 4, 2024 8:59:58 GMT -5
agree with all of that. But I think if they didn’t have a mic in front of their face, JS and Dabs would say that DJ and Lock is their answer at QB for now, even if it’s a flawed answer. The truth is most answers at QB are flawed. Stafford, Mayfield, Watson, Smith, even Trevor Lawrence, Dak, Kyler Murray. None of those guys seem to meet the expectations placed on them. I think T Lawrence can get better and better but right now he can’t put that team on his shoulders they way you expect a QB to. Again, you’re right, you need an answer at QB. But the question matters. A QB you can win a championship with or a QB that can consistently get you into the playoffs are very different QBs. I think between Lock and DJ, there’s enough talent to get us into the playoffs. And getting us into the playoffs in 24’ or 25’ is probably the goal. I sound like a broken record. This has more to do with the o line than QB. We don’t have a QB that can make up for the o line. We probably have a QB that can function behind a decent o line. As it was constituted for the first half of the season, there were very few QBs in the history of the NFL that would’ve been able to elevate the Giants to victory, all things considered. Just about all you need to know… In their first 2 home games of the 2023 season the Giants allowed 18 sacks. They followed that up with another 7 sacks in the next game. All tolled, 30 sacks in their first 5 games. But the 18 sacks in their first to home games is likely a record that might stand forever for Oline futility. Sandwiched in between that was the Cardinal game with the great comeback and a second game on the road 4 days later in SF. They were historically horrendous. 1. Many of those sacks were directly on Daniel Jones. He has no idea what's going on in the pocket. 2. Both Tommy DeVito and Tyrod Taylor were also under tremendous pressure but they simply handled it better.
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mendy
Starter
Posts: 4,001
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Post by mendy on May 4, 2024 9:10:28 GMT -5
If I can add Seattle 11 sacks -67 sac yards a Monday night game. 6 days later Miami 7 sacks -22 sac yards , a Sunday game. 18 sacks in 6 days . Interesting the sacks started trending downwards after DJs injury. Jones never had the same O line twice in those first 6 games. The all pro Tackle missed 4 or 5 games after getting hurt in game one.
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Aris
Special Teams
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Post by Aris on May 4, 2024 9:14:44 GMT -5
As I said, unless DJ turns into a franchise QB this season or we overpay for an average vet QB that can’t win playoff games then we’ll most likely have to force a QB pick next year and/or give up more draft capital than this year. Rookie QB needs at least a year to develop and if he’s good then we’re looking at 2026 at a minimum for when we’ll potentially have a real QB. My entire “prediction” is based on us picking 10th or later. If we suck so bad that we’re picking top 5 then that’s quite a bit different when it comes to the QB situation. If we’re better this year, which we should be, the good news is we’re moving in the right direction but the bad news is we’ll be stuck with DJ for another few years or force a QB pick or give up a lot of future picks. If we suck, the bad news is we’re stagnating or regressing but the good news is we won’t have to give up as much for a QB or maybe nothing at all. BTW, of course QB’s can emerge but as of now, I’m not impressed with most of these QB’s in 2025. As of now, the talent (not math) in regarding the physical tools regarding QB's next year is shallow. Maybe a Burrow emerges and we go 0-17....yay.
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Post by Jomo on May 4, 2024 9:16:37 GMT -5
The Giants are in a different place than the other 3 teams in the division. It's not good feeling but it is a fact, this was never gonna be easy to fix I think they have made progress and are one of the youngest teams in the NFL. Schoen / Daboll need to get their QB who knows maybe Drew Lock can buy them some time maybe he becomes Geno or Baker if his head is in it, he has the physical talent. If not they will be trying to trade up for a QB next year again. They have a lot of young players going into year 2 from last draft and six more who will have some role on this 2024 team think we have a couple more years to go. These kids are young and in the infancy of their NFL careers it takes some time for them to grow the OL to gell and guys to learn a new D we might be picking high again. I agree that it is hard to be excited about where the roster stands right now. After Thomas and Dexter Lawrence we don't have any obvious pro-bowl selections. We have a roster full of question marks, unfulfilled promises and too early to evaluate type players. That doesn't necessarily mean we will suck next year but in order for us to be a strong playoff contender, almost too many good/unexpected things need to happen. ....things like Wandale Robinson emerging as a major threat in the passing game and the TE from Penn State turning that athleticism into major offensive production and about 10 more things like that. Kind of unrealistic which is why this is my favorite time of the year. We are undefeated and in first place. That said, I am not sure I will grant the rest of our division "leader in the club house" status. Dallas has been all hype for 25 years so epect more of the "built to win now" BS over the next few months. Philly has to deal with the loss of a premier center and DL plus they still will feel the effects of losing both coordinators last year. The Redskins? Nope! So it is a bit early to resign ourselves to another season of misery. Let's play this out, at least into week 3, shall we?
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Post by Morehead State on May 4, 2024 9:18:36 GMT -5
Interesting the sacks started trending downwards after DJs injury. Jones never had the same O line twice in those first 6 games. The all pro Tackle missed 4 or 5 games after getting hurt in game one. He was never healthy even when he came back. All Giants QB's were running for their lives all season.
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Aris
Special Teams
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Post by Aris on May 4, 2024 9:38:09 GMT -5
As it was constituted for the first half of the season, there were very few QBs in the history of the NFL that would’ve been able to elevate the Giants to victory, all things considered. Just about all you need to know… In their first 2 home games of the 2023 season the Giants allowed 18 sacks. They followed that up with another 7 sacks in the next game. All tolled, 30 sacks in their first 5 games. But the 18 sacks in their first to home games is likely a record that might stand forever for Oline futility. Sandwiched in between that was the Cardinal game with the great comeback and a second game on the road 4 days later in SF. They were historically horrendous. 1. Many of those sacks were directly on Daniel Jones. He has no idea what's going on in the pocket. 2. Both Tommy DeVito and Tyrod Taylor were also under tremendous pressure but they simply handled it better. I'm not a DJ fan at all...was a horrific draft pick... but the majority of all the sacks are attributed to the OL. That's on tape....an easy evaluation on the fault. Daniel Jones and his limited abilities .... shell shocked, and we got some success with the 1 read and run. What little talent he had, accuracy and his wheels, is now the Jones we have, with the injuries. Drew Lock has a canon...would not surprise he outplays Jones and gives credence to our new x toy. Having Jones throw check downs to Malik .....or missing him wide open on a deeper route due to his horrific reads or the possible Neal led horrific OL will be quite the scene man.
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Post by Roswell on May 4, 2024 10:06:13 GMT -5
As it was constituted for the first half of the season, there were very few QBs in the history of the NFL that would’ve been able to elevate the Giants to victory, all things considered. Just about all you need to know… In their first 2 home games of the 2023 season the Giants allowed 18 sacks. They followed that up with another 7 sacks in the next game. All tolled, 30 sacks in their first 5 games. But the 18 sacks in their first to home games is likely a record that might stand forever for Oline futility. Sandwiched in between that was the Cardinal game with the great comeback and a second game on the road 4 days later in SF. They were historically horrendous. 1. Many of those sacks were directly on Daniel Jones. He has no idea what's going on in the pocket. 2. Both Tommy DeVito and Tyrod Taylor were also under tremendous pressure but they simply handled it better. Not even close to agreeing with this. Unless you equate Ezuedu at LT with Thomas and the option of slowing down the rush with Breida as an option vs Barkley.
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Post by bluebuddha on May 4, 2024 10:10:22 GMT -5
Interesting the sacks started trending downwards after DJs injury. Jones never had the same O line twice in those first 6 games. The all pro Tackle missed 4 or 5 games after getting hurt in game one. I forgot about Schrödinger's oline which changes when DJ is in at QB. What's the formula? oline + DJ = bad oline + sacks squared . Oline - DJ = improved oline + sacks. Doesn't it seem odd that you just admitted the coaches can get the oline to perform better for other QBs?
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Post by Roswell on May 4, 2024 10:12:39 GMT -5
1. Many of those sacks were directly on Daniel Jones. He has no idea what's going on in the pocket. 2. Both Tommy DeVito and Tyrod Taylor were also under tremendous pressure but they simply handled it better. I'm not a DJ fan at all...was a horrific draft pick... but the majority of all the sacks are attributed to the OL. That's on tape....an easy evaluation on the fault. Daniel Jones and his limited abilities .... shell shocked, and we got some success with the 1 read and run. What little talent he had, accuracy and his wheels, is now the Jones we have, with the injuries. Drew Lock has a canon...would not surprise he outplays Jones and gives credence to our new x toy. Having Jones throw check downs to Malik .....or missing him wide open on a deeper route due to his horrific reads or the possible Neal led horrific OL will be quite the scene man. I agree with this regarding the Oline. Lock definitely has a 50/50 chance of playing the majority of the games based on many factors.
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