|
Post by TheAnalyst on Aug 21, 2019 15:32:28 GMT -5
Good enough to get a 2nd contract with good stats and playoffs ... Now Andy Dalton is considered a franchise qb..as is Derrek Carr.. That to me is the bar ... Good point. I never considered either of those guys to be franchise QBs. Why not?
|
|
yoho
Special Teams
Posts: 1,848
|
Post by yoho on Aug 21, 2019 15:41:03 GMT -5
LOL.....so now we can discount such achievements not to mention two SB MVP's? In today's day and age I'd put sustainability up there on the list of criteria for franchise QB's.....how many of today's franchise QB's stay healthy.....they're all made out of paper. Besides Brady what QB's have done better with the playoffs than Eli since Eli has come into the league? You know, I really appreciate the two Super Bowl runs, I really do. But when you look outside of that he has been very pedestrian. 84.1 career QB rating is very average. And you speak of his longevity, you have to realize the guy does not stand in the pocket and take a hit to make throws, actually to the contrary he is prone to get rid of the ball in a panic fashion to avoid taking the hit, which maybe contributed to his high interception rate. I don’t mean to rank on the guy, I want him to do well. I just don’t see him as this special QB that a lot of people think he is. He was special twice, and had to have a DB drop an interception, and two receivers make all world catches to get his two super bowls. Nevertheless that happened, and I’m glad it did. But if he gets into the HOF for getting hot twice, Tiki Barber should also get in for his two last seasons where was basically the Giants offense those years.
|
|
|
Post by shocknaweny on Aug 21, 2019 15:59:26 GMT -5
LOL.....so now we can discount such achievements not to mention two SB MVP's? In today's day and age I'd put sustainability up there on the list of criteria for franchise QB's.....how many of today's franchise QB's stay healthy.....they're all made out of paper. Besides Brady what QB's have done better with the playoffs than Eli since Eli has come into the league? Outside of 8 games just about all of them
|
|
|
Post by Delicreep on Aug 21, 2019 16:07:45 GMT -5
Besides Brady what QB's have done better with the playoffs than Eli since Eli has come into the league? Outside of 8 games just about all of them Agreed...if you remove all of the positives a player has, you are left with a below average player.
|
|
|
Post by shocknaweny on Aug 21, 2019 16:10:38 GMT -5
Outside of 8 games just about all of them Agreed...if you remove all of the positives a player has, you are left with a below average player. well those were 8 great games that is for sure .....what about the other 13 seasons though Guy gets his team to the playoffs bout once a decade so yea I would not use his Playoff success rate over the course of his fifteen years a beacon of success.....8 games though yes
|
|
|
Post by Kase1 on Aug 21, 2019 16:27:45 GMT -5
Not being a liability on offense
being able to read a defense and adjust to coverage
being able to cycle through his progressions, not staring down and locking onto 1 option
elevates the play of teammates around him
leadership
not reliant on dump-off passes
willing to take the team on his back
not being afraid of taking the big chance downfield, but also not forcing it
able to extend the play if the pocket collapses
mobility to get the extra yards if nothing is open downfield, also knowing when to take the loss of downs, NOT throwing the pick and throwing it out of bounds
NOT throwing behind his receivers, but leading his guys
anticipation throws
NOT being an injury prone liability
aaaaand thats about all i have to say about thayt
|
|
smitty
Special Teams
Posts: 904
|
Post by smitty on Aug 21, 2019 16:28:19 GMT -5
Championships are the only criteria for success. Besides Brady, no active QB has more SB’s than Eli. In that regard, two franchise championships for DJ will do just fine.
|
|
|
Post by SG88 on Aug 21, 2019 17:49:56 GMT -5
You mean Eli the guy who other than two Super Bowl runs has been “one and done” in the playoffs the four other times he has made it in 16 years. The guy that lead the league in interceptions three times, one year throwing 27. and who has a career QB rating of 84.1. Eli Manning is a very average QB. I am hoping Jones far exceeds Eli. Never understood the disdain here for Manning But do you understand why Bray Wyatt is now The Fiend and why he did the Manable Claw to Jerry Lawler on Monday Night Raw?
|
|
|
Post by SG88 on Aug 21, 2019 17:56:32 GMT -5
Never understood the disdain here for Manning He is not the sexy super star QB that a certain crowd wants. All I care about is wins and losses. I would rather him throw 3 picks and <200 yards in a win than him throw for >300 yards and no picks in a loss. The thing about Eli Manning is that there would not be as much criticism by this fan base if the team were winning more games. Winning is the biggest dose of STFU that a team can give to its critics.
|
|
|
Post by bluebuddha on Aug 21, 2019 18:05:54 GMT -5
I agree improvement and not be complacent year after year is something all the great had. Consistently challenging themselves to get better. To me if they are a franchise QB they should be carrying the offense that is why you pay them franchise money. Why would you sign someone to the biggest contract on the team if they can't help when the situation calls for it? Either you know you have a franchise QB or don't within 4 years. so why have this thread....you just answered your own question I wanted to see why the differing opinions are or if my idea of a franchise qb was off. That's all. I enjoy the finding the similarities in people rather than the differences. It was just a thought experiment really that got me down a rabbit hole and wanted to see if there was a consensus quantifiable criteria for a franchise QB.
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 21, 2019 18:38:02 GMT -5
I define a franchise QB as someone that starts 6+ years and makes the Pro Bowl. So what does Jones have to do in order to get that second contract? It's a bit ambiguous but he has to not be the anchor holding us back. If this team is playing great and he stinks it up then he should go. If the team stinks and we don't make the playoffs but he plays well he should stay. I want to see us compete for the division each year, be a tough team in the playoffs and make a push for the Super Bowl over the next 5 seasons. this
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Aug 21, 2019 18:39:17 GMT -5
He is not the sexy super star QB that a certain crowd wants. All I care about is wins and losses. I would rather him throw 3 picks and <200 yards in a win than him throw for >300 yards and no picks in a loss. The thing about Eli Manning is that there would not be as much criticism by this fan base if the team were winning more games. Winning is the biggest dose of STFU that a team can give to its critics. The disdain started when everyone annointed Romo the chosen one and Eli and that defense cock blocked him in that playoff game
|
|
|
Post by bluebuddha on Aug 21, 2019 18:43:37 GMT -5
Besides Brady what QB's have done better with the playoffs than Eli since Eli has come into the league? Big Ben,Drew Brees I would put Russel in this category also but my memory might be biased in his favor.
|
|
|
Post by bluebuddha on Aug 21, 2019 18:47:49 GMT -5
A successful QB in this league must be a leader, the other 10 guys in that huddle depend on you, from the receivers, the offensive line and the running backs. When the chips are down and those guys need that calm voice or that kick in the ass, it's the QB who should be doing it. When you're down by 4 and you need a TD to win the game, your QB has to make you believe no matter what we got this game. They also need to have a short memory, mistakes happen, move to the next play and forget what just happened. Take your job serious. Most likely you're the face of the franchise, be a professional and show why the franchise made the right choice in making you the starter of their team. Be tough, don't be that guy who complains about every play, or throws teammates under the bus. Take accountability for your play, even when it's not your fault. Your teammates will respect you tremendously for it.. Lastly understand you will get all the credit in the wins, and all the blame in the loses. It's part of the job, you get paid a fortune to play a position only 32 guys in the Country play. Everyone wants to be you, and everyone is jealous of you. Oh, and have fun. Some of the best quarterbacks of this league are having a blast playing a kids game. When it's no longer fun you know when to hang up the cleats. I agree with this i meshes with a lot Qb I consider a franchise QB. I am beginning to wonder if the intangibles pieces of a Franchise QB matter more than the tangible pieces.
|
|
|
Post by Jomo on Aug 21, 2019 19:13:35 GMT -5
Aim MUCH higher...…
10 year starter
Successful in multiple playoff years
A SB or two
HOF optional
We don't need some guy, we need THE guy.
|
|
|
Post by Delicreep on Aug 21, 2019 19:15:46 GMT -5
Brady - 30-10...16 seasons Ben - 13-8...10 seasons Flacco - 10-5...6 seasons Rodgers 9-7...9 seasons Eli 8-4...6 seasons Wilson 8-5...6 seasons Brees 8-7...8 seasons Rivers 5-6...6 seasons
So...was anyone else surprised that Rivers has made the playoffs the same number of years as Eli?
Oh...and not counting Wilson*, Eli has 3 old guys with more playoff seasons and 3 with the same number...what a ****ing bum!
*clearly on course to outpace Eli, but not there yet.
|
|
|
Post by Speedman on Aug 21, 2019 19:37:11 GMT -5
Besides Brady what QB's have done better with the playoffs than Eli since Eli has come into the league? You know, I really appreciate the two Super Bowl runs, I really do. But when you look outside of that he has been very pedestrian. 84.1 career QB rating is very average. And you speak of his longevity, you have to realize the guy does not stand in the pocket and take a hit to make throws, actually to the contrary he is prone to get rid of the ball in a panic fashion to avoid taking the hit, which maybe contributed to his high interception rate. I don’t mean to rank on the guy, I want him to do well. I just don’t see him as this special QB that a lot of people think he is. He was special twice, and had to have a DB drop an interception, and two receivers make all world catches to get his two super bowls. Nevertheless that happened, and I’m glad it did. But if he gets into the HOF for getting hot twice, Tiki Barber should also get in for his two last seasons where was basically the Giants offense those years. You sound like a bitter Patriots fan.
|
|
|
Post by Speedman on Aug 21, 2019 19:42:39 GMT -5
Besides Brady what QB's have done better with the playoffs than Eli since Eli has come into the league? Outside of 8 games just about all of them You may want to rethink your statement. Look at the numbers that Deli put up a couple of posts before this.
|
|
|
Post by Jomo on Aug 21, 2019 19:48:11 GMT -5
Besides Brady what QB's have done better with the playoffs than Eli since Eli has come into the league? You know, I really appreciate the two Super Bowl runs, I really do. But when you look outside of that he has been very pedestrian. 84.1 career QB rating is very average. And you speak of his longevity, you have to realize the guy does not stand in the pocket and take a hit to make throws, actually to the contrary he is prone to get rid of the ball in a panic fashion to avoid taking the hit, which maybe contributed to his high interception rate. I don’t mean to rank on the guy, I want him to do well. I just don’t see him as this special QB that a lot of people think he is. He was special twice, and had to have a DB drop an interception, and two receivers make all world catches to get his two super bowls. Nevertheless that happened, and I’m glad it did. But if he gets into the HOF for getting hot twice, Tiki Barber should also get in for his two last seasons where was basically the Giants offense those years.Oh my, Tiki sneaking in on a thread about franchise quarterbacks. We are good without any Tiki references.
|
|
|
Post by Speedman on Aug 21, 2019 19:50:27 GMT -5
Brady - 30-10...16 seasons Ben - 13-8...10 seasons Flacco - 10-5...6 seasons Rodgers 9-7...9 seasons Eli 8-4...6 seasons Wilson 8-5...6 seasons Brees 8-7...8 seasons Rivers 5-6...6 seasons So...was anyone else surprised that Rivers has made the playoffs the same number of years as Eli? Oh...and not counting Wilson*, Eli has 3 old guys with more playoff seasons and 3 with the same number...what a ****ing bum! *clearly on course to outpace Eli, but not there yet. Out of this list only Brady has more rings than Ben and Eli.
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Aug 21, 2019 20:13:16 GMT -5
I smell a sock puppet
|
|
yoho
Special Teams
Posts: 1,848
|
Post by yoho on Aug 21, 2019 21:16:50 GMT -5
You know, I really appreciate the two Super Bowl runs, I really do. But when you look outside of that he has been very pedestrian. 84.1 career QB rating is very average. And you speak of his longevity, you have to realize the guy does not stand in the pocket and take a hit to make throws, actually to the contrary he is prone to get rid of the ball in a panic fashion to avoid taking the hit, which maybe contributed to his high interception rate. I don’t mean to rank on the guy, I want him to do well. I just don’t see him as this special QB that a lot of people think he is. He was special twice, and had to have a DB drop an interception, and two receivers make all world catches to get his two super bowls. Nevertheless that happened, and I’m glad it did. But if he gets into the HOF for getting hot twice, Tiki Barber should also get in for his two last seasons where was basically the Giants offense those years. You sound like a bitter Patriots fan. Actually I’m a bitter Giants fan because the guy that showed up for two Super Bowl runs but really for two drives at the end of two super bowls never performed at that level since.
|
|
yoho
Special Teams
Posts: 1,848
|
Post by yoho on Aug 21, 2019 21:24:28 GMT -5
You know, I really appreciate the two Super Bowl runs, I really do. But when you look outside of that he has been very pedestrian. 84.1 career QB rating is very average. And you speak of his longevity, you have to realize the guy does not stand in the pocket and take a hit to make throws, actually to the contrary he is prone to get rid of the ball in a panic fashion to avoid taking the hit, which maybe contributed to his high interception rate. I don’t mean to rank on the guy, I want him to do well. I just don’t see him as this special QB that a lot of people think he is. He was special twice, and had to have a DB drop an interception, and two receivers make all world catches to get his two super bowls. Nevertheless that happened, and I’m glad it did. But if he gets into the HOF for getting hot twice, Tiki Barber should also get in for his two last seasons where was basically the Giants offense those years.Oh my, Tiki sneaking in on a thread about franchise quarterbacks. We are good without any Tiki references. Tiki was a top two running back in the league two years in a row. When has Eli ever been a top two or three QB statistically, was the point I was making.
|
|
soflo
Special Teams
Posts: 1,718
|
Post by soflo on Aug 21, 2019 22:18:07 GMT -5
Good enough to get a 2nd contract and to win a lot more games than he loses. QBs are judged by wins and losses more than any other position on the field. I personally don't think that is fair in a team game, but it is what it is. Archie Manning is revered in New Orleans and he was a complete loser.
|
|
|
Post by DandyDon on Aug 21, 2019 22:18:19 GMT -5
I'm kinda with Baker Mayfield on this - "just win."
Whatever anyone wants to argue about Eli vs Rivers, does anyone think in discussions 10 years from now about the NFL Rivers will even be mentioned (except by Harooni)?
The only reason he will be mentioned is because of how a 2 time superbowl MVP landed on the right team.
|
|
soflo
Special Teams
Posts: 1,718
|
Post by soflo on Aug 21, 2019 22:21:44 GMT -5
You sound like a bitter Patriots fan. Actually I’m a bitter Giants fan because the guy that showed up for two Super Bowl runs but really for two drives at the end of two super bowls never performed at that level since. Oh, stop. Two drives?!?! You really want to diminish Eli that much? He threw 15 TDs to 2 INTS in those 2 entire playoff runs. It was not two drives. He also made like 4 or 5 pro bowls and has the all time record for 4th quarter comebacks in a season. He also tops that list all time. He's 7th all time in yards as well. The sad part about Eli's career is that he was FINALLY getting the respect he deserved for so long after the 2012 Super Bowl and because the incompetent Jerry Effin Reese basically left his ass hanging in the wind, it reversed how he was viewed.
|
|
soflo
Special Teams
Posts: 1,718
|
Post by soflo on Aug 21, 2019 22:27:06 GMT -5
I'm kinda with Baker Mayfield on this - "just win." Whatever anyone wants to argue about Eli vs Rivers, does anyone think in discussions 10 years from now about the NFL Rivers will even be mentioned (except by Harooni)? The only reason he will be mentioned is because of how a 2 time superbowl MVP landed on the right team. Rivers still has an outside shot to win a super bowl. I mean, I thought it was finally coming last year and NE just punked them. But it's not over for Rivers yet.
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Aug 21, 2019 23:30:00 GMT -5
If his career matches Eli's, I will be estatic as well. You mean Eli the guy who other than two Super Bowl runs has been “one and done” in the playoffs the four other times he has made it in 16 years. The guy that lead the league in interceptions three times, one year throwing 27. and who has a career QB rating of 84.1. Eli Manning is a very average QB. I am hoping Jones far exceeds Eli. How many championships do you figure he needs to have to far exceed? 5?
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Aug 21, 2019 23:38:01 GMT -5
Good point. I never considered either of those guys to be franchise QBs. Why not? Of course it depends on the definition of franchise QB, but my personal view is that it's because I don't believe either has accomplished all that much and I consider a franchise QB one that can take you deep into the playoffs. Otherwise to me it's just the definition of a long time average QB. For example, Manning without the championships wouldn't be a franchise QB.
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Aug 21, 2019 23:51:34 GMT -5
I'm kinda with Baker Mayfield on this - "just win." Whatever anyone wants to argue about Eli vs Rivers, does anyone think in discussions 10 years from now about the NFL Rivers will even be mentioned (except by Harooni)? The only reason he will be mentioned is because of how a 2 time superbowl MVP landed on the right team. Do you see Rivers taking those two Giants teams to championships? What about Manning with Chargers teams of '04 - '09?
|
|