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Post by bluebuddha on Jan 27, 2021 21:11:40 GMT -5
So because other productive TE's weren't drafted in the 1st, NO TE should be drafted in the 1st??? If Kelce was in the draft this year would you take him at 11?? Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round, that doesn't mean that no QBs should be drafted before then. Your logic is cheap and shallow You are cherry picking examples. I am stating:
1) The position has 32 starters, 3 are elite. So the position itself has a 1/11 chance of drafting an impact player, period.
2) It's a proven fact over 20 years that 0 teams have identified a star TE in Round 1
This is not a case of positions having talent throughout the draft, this is over 20 years a constant that good TEs have not been found in Round 1. So whatever the qualities that are being recognized as most important in the top guys is clearly off in some way.
If you disagree tell me the Round 1 TE draft in the 23 years since Tony Gonzalez whose career you would want to draft at # 11 this year if you could?
Pitts is his own guy, but based on this history have scouts gotten smart when it comes to him after missing the boat on how good the top TE in the drafts will be for 2 decades? OJ Howard and Hockerson were the last 2 TEs hyped like this guy. Are their careers to this point turning around the Giants offense?
Yep I agree. I remember when Eric Ebron was going to light up the NFL because he was a match up mightmare. |
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Post by bavarobeast on Jan 28, 2021 14:16:46 GMT -5
Pitts is a baller. If he becomes a Giant I’ll definitely be a happy guy.
With that said I’d rather have Waddle or Smith ( if somehow he falls because of his frame ).
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Post by bavarobeast on Jan 28, 2021 14:19:06 GMT -5
You are cherry picking examples. I am stating:
1) The position has 32 starters, 3 are elite. So the position itself has a 1/11 chance of drafting an impact player, period.
2) It's a proven fact over 20 years that 0 teams have identified a star TE in Round 1
This is not a case of positions having talent throughout the draft, this is over 20 years a constant that good TEs have not been found in Round 1. So whatever the qualities that are being recognized as most important in the top guys is clearly off in some way.
If you disagree tell me the Round 1 TE draft in the 23 years since Tony Gonzalez whose career you would want to draft at # 11 this year if you could?
Pitts is his own guy, but based on this history have scouts gotten smart when it comes to him after missing the boat on how good the top TE in the drafts will be for 2 decades? OJ Howard and Hockerson were the last 2 TEs hyped like this guy. Are their careers to this point turning around the Giants offense?
Yep I agree. I remember when Eric Ebron was going to light up the NFL because he was a match up mightmare. Comparing Pitts to Ebron means one thing - you haven’t watched much of Pitts. Pitts is in an entirely different class than Ebron - not even close. Pitts will be a star. |
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Post by 80sdreincarnate on Jan 28, 2021 15:42:03 GMT -5
Yep I agree. I remember when Eric Ebron was going to light up the NFL because he was a match up mightmare. Comparing Pitts to Ebron means one thing - you haven’t watched much of Pitts. Pitts is in an entirely different class than Ebron - not even close. Pitts will be a star. 0 Round 1 TEs over the last 20 years had good careers, 0. Many were predicted to cause matchup problems. Winslow Jr. Ebron. Shockey. Engram. OJ Howard. Jermaine Gresham. Good round 1 TEs, find me 1 guy you'd take with # 11 in this draft. You have your pick of every Round 1 TE for a 20 year period(if I gave you the same at any other position you'd be deciding between Hall of Famers), tell me the Round 1 TE whose career you think would be a good value for us picking # 11. The idea that Kyle Pitts will be the exception is possible, but nothing is being said about him that wasnt said about other guys. TE for whatever reason is a position scouts have a very hard time projecting. I think the main reason is there are a lot of soft matchups to exploit even in the best college Ds. |
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Post by jimmieray on Jan 28, 2021 16:53:42 GMT -5
Comparing Pitts to Ebron means one thing - you haven’t watched much of Pitts. Pitts is in an entirely different class than Ebron - not even close. Pitts will be a star. 0 Round 1 TEs over the last 20 years had good careers, 0. Many were predicted to cause matchup problems. Winslow Jr. Ebron. Shockey. Engram. OJ Howard. Jermaine Gresham. Good round 1 TEs, find me 1 guy you'd take with # 11 in this draft. You have your pick of every Round 1 TE for a 20 year period(if I gave you the same at any other position you'd be deciding between Hall of Famers), tell me the Round 1 TE whose career you think would be a good value for us picking # 11. The idea that Kyle Pitts will be the exception is possible, but nothing is being said about him that wasnt said about other guys. TE for whatever reason is a position scouts have a very hard time projecting. I think the main reason is there are a lot of soft matchups to exploit even in the best college Ds. I feel that being a consistent inline blocker is critical to being a successful NFL TE - that's how situations are created for critical catches when they slip out alone in space. There seems to be a notion that receiving first TEs can easily have their way with most NFL defensive schemes, yet it's rare they actually get open enough to do so. Pitts may well be an exception, but the receivers possibly available this draft are likely the better percentage grab for the first pick. |
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Post by snyder55 on Jan 28, 2021 17:03:51 GMT -5
0 Round 1 TEs over the last 20 years had good careers, 0. Many were predicted to cause matchup problems. Winslow Jr. Ebron. Shockey. Engram. OJ Howard. Jermaine Gresham. Good round 1 TEs, find me 1 guy you'd take with # 11 in this draft. You have your pick of every Round 1 TE for a 20 year period(if I gave you the same at any other position you'd be deciding between Hall of Famers), tell me the Round 1 TE whose career you think would be a good value for us picking # 11. The idea that Kyle Pitts will be the exception is possible, but nothing is being said about him that wasnt said about other guys. TE for whatever reason is a position scouts have a very hard time projecting. I think the main reason is there are a lot of soft matchups to exploit even in the best college Ds. I feel that being a consistent inline blocker is critical to being a successful NFL TE - that's how situations are created for critical catches when they slip out alone in space. There seems to be a notion that receiving first TEs can easily have their way with most NFL defensive schemes, yet it's rare they actually get open enough to do so. Pitts may well be an exception, but the receivers possibly available this draft are likely the better percentage grab for the first pick. Jason Witten made a HOF career by slipping out over the middle and always getting open and making the catch, especially against us and we never found a way to stop him...plus he could also block..very rare TE especially in todays NFL... |
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Post by Kase1 on Jan 28, 2021 17:55:11 GMT -5
So because other productive TE's weren't drafted in the 1st, NO TE should be drafted in the 1st??? If Kelce was in the draft this year would you take him at 11?? Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round, that doesn't mean that no QBs should be drafted before then. Your logic is cheap and shallow You are cherry picking examples. I am stating:
1) The position has 32 starters, 3 are elite. So the position itself has a 1/11 chance of drafting an impact player, period.
2) It's a proven fact over 20 years that 0 teams have identified a star TE in Round 1
This is not a case of positions having talent throughout the draft, this is over 20 years a constant that good TEs have not been found in Round 1. So whatever the qualities that are being recognized as most important in the top guys is clearly off in some way.
If you disagree tell me the Round 1 TE draft in the 23 years since Tony Gonzalez whose career you would want to draft at # 11 this year if you could?
Pitts is his own guy, but based on this history have scouts gotten smart when it comes to him after missing the boat on how good the top TE in the drafts will be for 2 decades? OJ Howard and Hockerson were the last 2 TEs hyped like this guy. Are their careers to this point turning around the Giants offense?
3 recent picks come to mind, TJ Hockenson and Noah Fant, both are starting to come into their own and are defitnely top 10 TE's in the league. OJ Howard was looking like a force to be wreckoned with before his injury. Personally, I think any of those 3 would help turn around the Giants offense Pitts is different, he comes to the team and if he plays TE he is already the best TE on the team, if he plays WR he is already the best WR on the team. Dont get me wrong, I was totally against a 1st round TE after Engrams career so far, but this kid is different. |
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Post by 80sdreincarnate on Jan 28, 2021 18:00:23 GMT -5
You are cherry picking examples. I am stating:
1) The position has 32 starters, 3 are elite. So the position itself has a 1/11 chance of drafting an impact player, period.
2) It's a proven fact over 20 years that 0 teams have identified a star TE in Round 1
This is not a case of positions having talent throughout the draft, this is over 20 years a constant that good TEs have not been found in Round 1. So whatever the qualities that are being recognized as most important in the top guys is clearly off in some way.
If you disagree tell me the Round 1 TE draft in the 23 years since Tony Gonzalez whose career you would want to draft at # 11 this year if you could?
Pitts is his own guy, but based on this history have scouts gotten smart when it comes to him after missing the boat on how good the top TE in the drafts will be for 2 decades? OJ Howard and Hockerson were the last 2 TEs hyped like this guy. Are their careers to this point turning around the Giants offense?
3 recent picks come to mind, TJ Hockenson and Noah Fant, both are starting to come into their own and are defitnely top 10 TE's in the league. OJ Howard was looking like a force to be wreckoned with before his injury. Personally, I think any of those 3 would help turn around the Giants offense Pitts is different, he comes to the team and if he plays TE he is already the best TE on the team, if he plays WR he is already the best WR on the team. Dont get me wrong, I was totally against a 1st round TE after Engrams career so far, but this kid is different. Hockenson had 300 yards year 1 and 700 yards year 2, Fant even less productive. You'd be happy with that in 2021 and 2022 from our # 11 pick? Hockenson has not even outproduced Engram. So seems redundant to me. My point is at # 11 we are historically speaking not going to find a TE any better than Engram, not because Engram is good, but because TE success just has not been measured properly in evaluating these guys. Pitts had some big games in shootouts. If you get him matched up on a bad corner or bad LB at the college level he's gonna eat. Can he do that in the NFL consistently? The last 20 years worth of TEs took in Round 1 thinking they could did not pan out. I think we are much better off taking the best WR on our board in a draft that is tremendously deep at WR. Does it mean we can't draft a bust at WR? No, but there are far more HRs being hit drafting WRs than TEs. |
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Post by Kase1 on Jan 28, 2021 18:19:38 GMT -5
3 recent picks come to mind, TJ Hockenson and Noah Fant, both are starting to come into their own and are defitnely top 10 TE's in the league. OJ Howard was looking like a force to be wreckoned with before his injury. Personally, I think any of those 3 would help turn around the Giants offense Pitts is different, he comes to the team and if he plays TE he is already the best TE on the team, if he plays WR he is already the best WR on the team. Dont get me wrong, I was totally against a 1st round TE after Engrams career so far, but this kid is different. Hockenson had 300 yards year 1 and 700 yards year 2, Fant even less productive. You'd be happy with that in 2021 and 2022 from our # 11 pick? Hockenson has not even outproduced Engram. So seems redundant to me. My point is at # 11 we are historically speaking not going to find a TE any better than Engram, not because Engram is good, but because TE success just has not been measured properly in evaluating these guys. Pitts had some big games in shootouts. If you get him matched up on a bad corner or bad LB at the college level he's gonna eat. Can he do that in the NFL consistently? The last 20 years worth of TEs took in Round 1 thinking they could did not pan out. I think we are much better off taking the best WR on our board in a draft that is tremendously deep at WR. Does it mean we can't draft a bust at WR? No, but there are far more HRs being hit drafting WRs than TEs. You're saying NO TE who was drafted in the 1st round in the past 20yrs had a successful career???? 2001; Todd Heap, successful career 2002; Jeremy Shockey, successful career 2003; Dallas Clark, successful career 2004; Kellen Winslow Jr/ Ben Watson, successful career 2005; Heath Miller, successful career 2006; Vernon Davis/Mercedes Lewis, successful/decent career 2007; Greg Olsen, successful career 2008; Dustin Keller, average career 2009; Brandon Pettigrew, not great 2010; Jermaine Gresham, not great 2013; Tyler Eifert, successful career 2014; Eric Ebron, average career 2017; OJ Howard/Evan Engram/David Njoku, successful careers so far 2018; Hayden Hurst, tbd 2019; TJ Hockenson/Noah Fant, successful careers so far You love to mention Hockenson vs Engram but here are a few numbers, Engram avg's 605yds per season Hockenson avg's 545, Engram avg's 3.25td per season Hockenson avg's 4, Engram was 4th in the league in drops Hockenson wasnt on the list. |
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Post by 80sdreincarnate on Jan 28, 2021 18:22:00 GMT -5
Hockenson had 300 yards year 1 and 700 yards year 2, Fant even less productive. You'd be happy with that in 2021 and 2022 from our # 11 pick? Hockenson has not even outproduced Engram. So seems redundant to me. My point is at # 11 we are historically speaking not going to find a TE any better than Engram, not because Engram is good, but because TE success just has not been measured properly in evaluating these guys. Pitts had some big games in shootouts. If you get him matched up on a bad corner or bad LB at the college level he's gonna eat. Can he do that in the NFL consistently? The last 20 years worth of TEs took in Round 1 thinking they could did not pan out. I think we are much better off taking the best WR on our board in a draft that is tremendously deep at WR. Does it mean we can't draft a bust at WR? No, but there are far more HRs being hit drafting WRs than TEs. You're saying NO TE who was drafted in the 1st round in the past 20yrs had a successful career???? 2001; Todd Heap, successful career 2002; Jeremy Shockey, successful career 2003; Dallas Clark, successful career 2004; Kellen Winslow Jr/ Ben Watson, successful career 2005; Heath Miller, successful career 2006; Vernon Davis/Mercedes Lewis, successful/decent career 2007; Greg Olsen, successful career 2008; Dustin Keller, average career 2009; Brandon Pettigrew, not great 2010; Jermaine Gresham, not great 2013; Tyler Eifert, successful career 2014; Eric Ebron, average career 2017; OJ Howard/Evan Engram/David Njoku, successful careers so far 2018; Hayden Hurst, tbd 2019; TJ Hockenson/Noah Fant, successful careers so far You love to mention Hockenson vs Engram but here are a few numbers, Engram avg's 605yds per season Hockenson avg's 545, Engram avg's 3.25td per season Hockenson avg's 4, Engram was 4th in the league in drops Hockenson wasnt on the list. Im saying none of the guys listed above had a career that I would want to draft at # 11 overall. Do you disagree? If you could draft the season by season career stat lines of the TEs you listed above at # 11 in this draft, which of them would you take? I'd consider all of their careers a bust at # 11...... |
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Post by Kase1 on Jan 28, 2021 18:26:54 GMT -5
You're saying NO TE who was drafted in the 1st round in the past 20yrs had a successful career???? 2001; Todd Heap, successful career 2002; Jeremy Shockey, successful career 2003; Dallas Clark, successful career 2004; Kellen Winslow Jr/ Ben Watson, successful career 2005; Heath Miller, successful career 2006; Vernon Davis/Mercedes Lewis, successful/decent career 2007; Greg Olsen, successful career 2008; Dustin Keller, average career 2009; Brandon Pettigrew, not great 2010; Jermaine Gresham, not great 2013; Tyler Eifert, successful career 2014; Eric Ebron, average career 2017; OJ Howard/Evan Engram/David Njoku, successful careers so far 2018; Hayden Hurst, tbd 2019; TJ Hockenson/Noah Fant, successful careers so far You love to mention Hockenson vs Engram but here are a few numbers, Engram avg's 605yds per season Hockenson avg's 545, Engram avg's 3.25td per season Hockenson avg's 4, Engram was 4th in the league in drops Hockenson wasnt on the list. Im saying none of the guys listed above had a career that I would want to draft at # 11 overall. Do you disagree? If you could draft the season by season career stat lines of the TEs you listed above at # 11 in this draft, which of them would you take? I'd consider all of their careers a bust at # 11...... ...Depends who else is in the draft. A few posts ago you were going on about how NO TE's who were drafted in the 1st round had good careers, I was more so referring to that post. As for any of them at 11, it depends who is left on the draft boards |
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Post by 80sdreincarnate on Jan 28, 2021 18:31:30 GMT -5
Im saying none of the guys listed above had a career that I would want to draft at # 11 overall. Do you disagree? If you could draft the season by season career stat lines of the TEs you listed above at # 11 in this draft, which of them would you take? I'd consider all of their careers a bust at # 11...... ...Depends who else is in the draft. A few posts ago you were going on about how NO TE's who were drafted in the 1st round had good careers, I was more so referring to that post. As for any of them at 11, it depends who is left on the draft boards I am talking about the context of taking Kyle Pitts at 11 in this draft. I said if you go back 20 years there are 0 TEs who have had careers worth taking that high. So I'll ask you for the 3rd time, in THIS draft which of the TEs you listed would you take at # 11 overall and bank that career is better than the other players available to us? Which of those guys could you take at # 11 and you'd consider it a game changing weapon for this offense? I feel like this is a very simple and direct question. Lets take Dallas Clark for example as hes probably the best on your list. He made 1 Pro Bowl at age 30 and averaged about 400 yards a year over his first 3 seasons in the league. If you could draft his career at # 11 this year would you be happy with it? |
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Post by bluebuddha on Jan 28, 2021 18:35:12 GMT -5
Yep I agree. I remember when Eric Ebron was going to light up the NFL because he was a match up mightmare. Comparing Pitts to Ebron means one thing - you haven’t watched much of Pitts. Pitts is in an entirely different class than Ebron - not even close. Pitts will be a star.
Probably I am nor enough of an scouting expert or fortune teller to tell you if Pitts will have a better career. I can only use past results to make assumptions on the future. I am not bashing Pitts at all. I just won't be jumping up and down if they draft him in the first. |
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Post by Kase1 on Jan 28, 2021 19:15:21 GMT -5
...Depends who else is in the draft. A few posts ago you were going on about how NO TE's who were drafted in the 1st round had good careers, I was more so referring to that post. As for any of them at 11, it depends who is left on the draft boards I am talking about the context of taking Kyle Pitts at 11 in this draft. I said if you go back 20 years there are 0 TEs who have had careers worth taking that high. So I'll ask you for the 3rd time, in THIS draft which of the TEs you listed would you take at # 11 overall and bank that career is better than the other players available to us? Which of those guys could you take at # 11 and you'd consider it a game changing weapon for this offense? I feel like this is a very simple and direct question. Lets take Dallas Clark for example as hes probably the best on your list. He made 1 Pro Bowl at age 30 and averaged about 400 yards a year over his first 3 seasons in the league. If you could draft his career at # 11 this year would you be happy with it? Id take Pitts at 11, he looks that good. Out of that list, id take Shockey, Kellen Winslow, Greg Olsen, OJ Howard, TJ Hockenson and Noah fant at 11 |
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Post by 80sdreincarnate on Jan 29, 2021 8:45:49 GMT -5
I am talking about the context of taking Kyle Pitts at 11 in this draft. I said if you go back 20 years there are 0 TEs who have had careers worth taking that high. So I'll ask you for the 3rd time, in THIS draft which of the TEs you listed would you take at # 11 overall and bank that career is better than the other players available to us? Which of those guys could you take at # 11 and you'd consider it a game changing weapon for this offense? I feel like this is a very simple and direct question. Lets take Dallas Clark for example as hes probably the best on your list. He made 1 Pro Bowl at age 30 and averaged about 400 yards a year over his first 3 seasons in the league. If you could draft his career at # 11 this year would you be happy with it? Id take Pitts at 11, he looks that good. Out of that list, id take Shockey, Kellen Winslow, Greg Olsen, OJ Howard, TJ Hockenson and Noah fant at 11 I could list 40 WRs who were more productive and more productive faster over the same period. Shockey is the only one who had any impact witihn his first 2 years and that was 800 yards and 2 TDs on 120 targets. Years 1, 2, 3 of the guys on that list are nothing more than Engram is giving us and in most cases less. Why would we spend Round 1 on that? Chase, Smith, or Waddle. That is the path to take.
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Post by Kase1 on Jan 29, 2021 17:35:41 GMT -5
Id take Pitts at 11, he looks that good. Out of that list, id take Shockey, Kellen Winslow, Greg Olsen, OJ Howard, TJ Hockenson and Noah fant at 11 I could list 40 WRs who were more productive and more productive faster over the same period. Shockey is the only one who had any impact witihn his first 2 years and that was 800 yards and 2 TDs on 120 targets. Years 1, 2, 3 of the guys on that list are nothing more than Engram is giving us and in most cases less. Why would we spend Round 1 on that? Chase, Smith, or Waddle. That is the path to take.
...But we arent talking WRs, we're talking TE's |
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Post by 80sdreincarnate on Jan 30, 2021 7:42:13 GMT -5
I could list 40 WRs who were more productive and more productive faster over the same period. Shockey is the only one who had any impact witihn his first 2 years and that was 800 yards and 2 TDs on 120 targets. Years 1, 2, 3 of the guys on that list are nothing more than Engram is giving us and in most cases less. Why would we spend Round 1 on that? Chase, Smith, or Waddle. That is the path to take.
...But we arent talking WRs, we're talking TE's We are talking what to do at # 11 in this draft. |
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Post by Kase1 on Jan 30, 2021 8:25:51 GMT -5
...But we arent talking WRs, we're talking TE's We are talking what to do at # 11 in this draft. We are talking about Kyle Pitts at 11 and you are talking about how every 1st round te has been, and forever will be, a bust with an unsuccessful career. |
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Post by TCHOF on Jan 30, 2021 8:34:12 GMT -5
Id take Pitts at 11, he looks that good. Out of that list, id take Shockey, Kellen Winslow, Greg Olsen, OJ Howard, TJ Hockenson and Noah fant at 11 I could list 40 WRs who were more productive and more productive faster over the same period. Shockey is the only one who had any impact witihn his first 2 years and that was 800 yards and 2 TDs on 120 targets. Years 1, 2, 3 of the guys on that list are nothing more than Engram is giving us and in most cases less. Why would we spend Round 1 on that? Chase, Smith, or Waddle. That is the path to take.
There is a chance that Chase, Smith and Waddle are gone by 11 |
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Post by 80sdreincarnate on Jan 30, 2021 9:19:08 GMT -5
I could list 40 WRs who were more productive and more productive faster over the same period. Shockey is the only one who had any impact witihn his first 2 years and that was 800 yards and 2 TDs on 120 targets. Years 1, 2, 3 of the guys on that list are nothing more than Engram is giving us and in most cases less. Why would we spend Round 1 on that? Chase, Smith, or Waddle. That is the path to take.
There is a chance that Chase, Smith and Waddle are gone by 11 I don’t buy it. Last years WR class was better and 0 went top 10. No way 3 are. |
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Post by TCHOF on Jan 30, 2021 10:14:45 GMT -5
There is a chance that Chase, Smith and Waddle are gone by 11 I don’t buy it. Last years WR class was better and 0 went top 10. No way 3 are. If I had to bet, I would bet that 1 will be there for us ... but there is still the possibility that all could be gone. Never know with the draft. I’m not a doctor, but I don’t like that my last image of Waddle was him limping off the field in the championship game .... |
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Post by Speedman on Jan 30, 2021 11:18:34 GMT -5
I don’t buy it. Last years WR class was better and 0 went top 10. No way 3 are. If I had to bet, I would bet that 1 will be there for us ... but there is still the possibility that all could be gone. Never know with the draft. I’m not a doctor, but I don’t like that my last image of Waddle was him limping off the field in the championship game .... Agree with your last statement. He looked like he could just about walk. |
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