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Post by NAVY2323(ret) on Dec 15, 2021 21:02:56 GMT -5
To Wellington Mara, but please know that he also oversaw a pathetic and dark period in Giants history. The resurrection of the franchise was thanks to a man named George Young. A great football man who the league basically slam dunked on the elder Mara’s head to stop the franchise from being an embarrassment. This is a different age, nobody is going to stop John from being an ignoramus. Who knows how long this will go on for. Just keeping it real.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Dec 15, 2021 21:21:00 GMT -5
If I remember right Rozelle made Mara hire Young. Young hired Perkins who then left for his alma mater Alabama after the Bear retired. And we promoted Parcells.
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Post by cdngfan on Dec 15, 2021 21:29:01 GMT -5
To Wellington Mara, but please know that he also oversaw a pathetic and dark period in Giants history. The resurrection of the franchise was thanks to a man named George Young. A great football man who the league basically slam dunked on the elder Mara’s head to stop the franchise from being an embarrassment. This is a different age, nobody is going to stop John from being an ignoramus. Who knows how long this will go on for. Just keeping it real. Won’t disagree with any of that. The more fan attention on our owners the better. They’ve shown they’ll do things they don’t want to do (fire McAdoo, Reese, Garrett). Those firings were clearly people the ownership wanted to keep at the time, but felt intense pressure to assuage fans/critics. Some fans think it’s impossible to get the Mara’s to understand stepping back from operations could result in much faster improvement that the would be admired for. I think we have a better chance of Mara developing more advanced leadership skills and handing the chalice over to someone who can make a franchise thrive in 2022+ where players are their own brand and analytics have been adopted from top to bottom of organizations. We have a better chance of that breakthrough than we do of the family making this work on their own, including whoever they hire as a GM. |
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te88
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Post by te88 on Dec 15, 2021 21:52:38 GMT -5
The Maras are football enthusiasts that become dinosaurs when the league makes a leap.
John and Chris will tell you their father was the “original scout” because back in the day he was underlining players names in football magazines and later brought them to the Giants.
But as the league grew and scouting became an actual thing Wellingtons mom and pop operation was quickly left in the dust. Not until George Young got control and brought in the methods of Gil Brandt and the structures of a modern (at the time) franchise did they pull out of the disaster zone they were in.
History is now repeating itself. The NFL has passed the Maras by. They need to give away more control than they’re used to (just like they did with Young) and let somebody come in and rebuild this from scratch. It is a project of similar scope (5+ years of doing it RIGHT) to get on track.
The Maras have been passed by and until they recognize that we are going nowhere.
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Post by cdngfan on Dec 15, 2021 22:43:27 GMT -5
The Maras are football enthusiasts that become dinosaurs when the league makes a leap. John and Chris will tell you their father was the “original scout” because back in the day he was underlining players names in football magazines and later brought them to the Giants. But as the league grew and scouting became an actual thing Wellingtons mom and pop operation was quickly left in the dust. Not until George Young got control and brought in the methods of Gil Brandt and the structures of a modern (at the time) franchise did they pull out of the disaster zone they were in. History is now repeating itself. The NFL has passed the Maras by. They need to give away more control than they’re used to (just like they did with Young) and let somebody come in and rebuild this from scratch. It is a project of similar scope (5+ years of doing it RIGHT) to get on track. The Maras have been passed by and until they recognize that we are going nowhere. Literally agree with every syllable you just wrote. Perfectly said. |
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Post by giantlegacy on Dec 15, 2021 23:12:57 GMT -5
The Maras are football enthusiasts that become dinosaurs when the league makes a leap. John and Chris will tell you their father was the “original scout” because back in the day he was underlining players names in football magazines and later brought them to the Giants. But as the league grew and scouting became an actual thing Wellingtons mom and pop operation was quickly left in the dust. Not until George Young got control and brought in the methods of Gil Brandt and the structures of a modern (at the time) franchise did they pull out of the disaster zone they were in. History is now repeating itself. The NFL has passed the Maras by. They need to give away more control than they’re used to (just like they did with Young) and let somebody come in and rebuild this from scratch. It is a project of similar scope (5+ years of doing it RIGHT) to get on track. The Maras have been passed by and until they recognize that we are going nowhere. The treadmill should be locked after your comment...litterally comment of the year caliber |
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Post by NAVY2323(ret) on Dec 15, 2021 23:24:32 GMT -5
The Maras are football enthusiasts that become dinosaurs when the league makes a leap. John and Chris will tell you their father was the “original scout” because back in the day he was underlining players names in football magazines and later brought them to the Giants. But as the league grew and scouting became an actual thing Wellingtons mom and pop operation was quickly left in the dust. Not until George Young got control and brought in the methods of Gil Brandt and the structures of a modern (at the time) franchise did they pull out of the disaster zone they were in. History is now repeating itself. The NFL has passed the Maras by. They need to give away more control than they’re used to (just like they did with Young) and let somebody come in and rebuild this from scratch. It is a project of similar scope (5+ years of doing it RIGHT) to get on track. The Maras have been passed by and until they recognize that we are going nowhere. Just fantastic. |
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Post by DandyDon on Dec 15, 2021 23:53:29 GMT -5
To Wellington Mara, but please know that he also oversaw a pathetic and dark period in Giants history. The resurrection of the franchise was thanks to a man named George Young. A great football man who the league basically slam dunked on the elder Mara’s head to stop the franchise from being an embarrassment. This is a different age, nobody is going to stop John from being an ignoramus. Who knows how long this will go on for. Just keeping it real. Won’t disagree with any of that. The more fan attention on our owners the better. They’ve shown they’ll do things they don’t want to do (fire McAdoo, Reese, Garrett). Those firings were clearly people the ownership wanted to keep at the time, but felt intense pressure to assuage fans/critics. Some fans think it’s impossible to get the Mara’s to understand stepping back from operations could result in much faster improvement that the would be admired for. I think we have a better chance of Mara developing more advanced leadership skills and handing the chalice over to someone who can make a franchise thrive in 2022+ where players are their own brand and analytics have been adopted from top to bottom of organizations. We have a better chance of that breakthrough than we do of the family making this work on their own, including whoever they hire as a GM. They definitely listen to the fans. The problem is they don't seem to get any smarter about the problems in their organization. |
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te88
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Post by te88 on Dec 16, 2021 6:51:00 GMT -5
If I remember right Rozelle made Mara hire Young. Young hired Perkins who then left for his alma mater Alabama after the Bear retired. And we promoted Parcells. He didn’t quite make Mara do it. Wellington actually had it arranged so that Young would be the name Rozelle suggested so it had the appearance of an outside suggestion. This is key because it actually showed that Wellington recognized how much needed to change and he also recognized that Young would be a good candidate to pull it off. It’s the same now. It starts and ends with John Mara. When HE admits what needs to be done it will set the conditions for the right person to be brought in with the needed level of control to repair this. But until that self admission happens, we aren’t going anywhere. |
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Dec 16, 2021 8:01:41 GMT -5
If I remember right Rozelle made Mara hire Young. Young hired Perkins who then left for his alma mater Alabama after the Bear retired. And we promoted Parcells. Yup but many seem to forget that Young was close to getting canned himself. Perkins in his four seasons went 6-10 4-12 9-7 4-5 (82 strike year) Parcells first season....83 3-12-1 We all know it worked out in the long run but George Young was going to be canned had Perkins not had a winning season in 83 |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Dec 16, 2021 8:10:20 GMT -5
To Wellington Mara, but please know that he also oversaw a pathetic and dark period in Giants history. The resurrection of the franchise was thanks to a man named George Young. A great football man who the league basically slam dunked on the elder Mara’s head to stop the franchise from being an embarrassment. This is a different age, nobody is going to stop John from being an ignoramus. Who knows how long this will go on for. Just keeping it real. Actually this is accurate Pete Rozelle forced Young on the feuding Mara boys and the rest is history. 2 winning seasons from 1964 through 1980 I was born in 1961 so by the time I could understand football all I new was losing. When Simms and then Taylor Banks and the hold overs of Carson and Martin and several other George young picks started to turn it around I was a man joining the military watching games in the Barracks or listening and checking scores. That was very dark period I was to young to even understand how dark, until the sun came up. This is nothing compared to that if Mara gets it right this offseason with fires and hires, other wise we will be in something much more embarrassing then the wilderness years being there is free agency to assist teams in staying competitive. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Dec 16, 2021 8:16:12 GMT -5
If I remember right Rozelle made Mara hire Young. Young hired Perkins who then left for his alma mater Alabama after the Bear retired. And we promoted Parcells. Yup but many seem to forget that Young was close to getting canned himself. Perkins in his four seasons went 6-10 4-12 9-7 4-5 (82 strike year) Parcells first season....83 3-12-1 We all know it worked out in the long run but George Young was going to be canned had Perkins not had a winning season in 83 Young was part of an NFL where developing a QB was 5 year plan and rebuilding was considered a 5 year deal he was very lucky in that respect but he didn't have free agency to help move rebuilding along, Back then teams developed players. In todays game freeagncy has forced teams to get something out of their draft picks in the first couple years to justify using cap to keep them. The Salary cap era changed the NFL in a big way thats how we got Accosi Young was not about to learn how to handle the cap. |
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Post by Kruunch on Dec 16, 2021 9:11:38 GMT -5
If I remember right Rozelle made Mara hire Young. Young hired Perkins who then left for his alma mater Alabama after the Bear retired. And we promoted Parcells. Yup but many seem to forget that Young was close to getting canned himself. Perkins in his four seasons went 6-10 4-12 9-7 4-5 (82 strike year) Parcells first season....83 3-12-1 We all know it worked out in the long run but George Young was going to be canned had Perkins not had a winning season in 83 Besides thin air.. where did you come up with this? |
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Dec 16, 2021 10:09:28 GMT -5
Yup but many seem to forget that Young was close to getting canned himself. Perkins in his four seasons went 6-10 4-12 9-7 4-5 (82 strike year) Parcells first season....83 3-12-1 We all know it worked out in the long run but George Young was going to be canned had Perkins not had a winning season in 83 Besides thin air.. where did you come up with this? Perkins was his hire, after four not great years of a Coach only he wanted and to be left high and dry to go to Alabama Parcells going 3-12-1 had people rumbling. You obviously think I'm making it up so no matter who what or where you won't believe . |
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Post by Rangers13 on Dec 16, 2021 10:13:33 GMT -5
Won’t disagree with any of that. The more fan attention on our owners the better. They’ve shown they’ll do things they don’t want to do (fire McAdoo, Reese, Garrett). Those firings were clearly people the ownership wanted to keep at the time, but felt intense pressure to assuage fans/critics. Some fans think it’s impossible to get the Mara’s to understand stepping back from operations could result in much faster improvement that the would be admired for. I think we have a better chance of Mara developing more advanced leadership skills and handing the chalice over to someone who can make a franchise thrive in 2022+ where players are their own brand and analytics have been adopted from top to bottom of organizations. We have a better chance of that breakthrough than we do of the family making this work on their own, including whoever they hire as a GM. They definitely listen to the fans. The problem is they don't seem to get any smarter about the problems in their organization. if they listened to the fans the OL wouldn’t still need potentially four new starters. |
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Dec 16, 2021 10:15:09 GMT -5
Yup but many seem to forget that Young was close to getting canned himself. Perkins in his four seasons went 6-10 4-12 9-7 4-5 (82 strike year) Parcells first season....83 3-12-1 We all know it worked out in the long run but George Young was going to be canned had Perkins not had a winning season in 83 Young was part of an NFL where developing a QB was 5 year plan and rebuilding was considered a 5 year deal he was very lucky in that respect but he didn't have free agency to help move rebuilding along, Back then teams developed players. In todays game freeagncy has forced teams to get something out of their draft picks in the first couple years to justify using cap to keep them. The Salary cap era changed the NFL in a big way thats how we got Accosi Young was not about to learn how to handle the cap. Fully understood yet the ineptitude of the previous 10/12 years was growing thin on some of the family members not named Wellington. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Dec 16, 2021 10:32:07 GMT -5
Young was part of an NFL where developing a QB was 5 year plan and rebuilding was considered a 5 year deal he was very lucky in that respect but he didn't have free agency to help move rebuilding along, Back then teams developed players. In todays game freeagncy has forced teams to get something out of their draft picks in the first couple years to justify using cap to keep them. The Salary cap era changed the NFL in a big way thats how we got Accosi Young was not about to learn how to handle the cap. Fully understood yet the ineptitude of the previous 10/12 years was growing thin on some of the family members not named Wellington. None of us as fans know what is going on inside the Big Blue Teepee, the only thing clear is that the Giants need a new Direction, it has gotten old Giant retreads failing I know Gettlemens guys have been banged up but this how it goes with losing no improvement no biscuit. I would say this Mara seems hell bent on keeping Judge around, he can not and should not saddle a new GM with him as a lifetime appointment as head coach one more losing year that looks more like regression he need to go to |
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Dec 16, 2021 10:43:34 GMT -5
Fully understood yet the ineptitude of the previous 10/12 years was growing thin on some of the family members not named Wellington. None of us as fans know what is going on inside the Big Blue Teepee, the only thing clear is that the Giants need a new Direction, it has gotten old Giant retreads failing I know Gettlemens guys have been banged up but this how it goes with losing no improvement no biscuit. I would say this Mara seems hell bent on keeping Judge around, he can not and should not saddle a new GM with him as a lifetime appointment as head coach one more losing year that looks more like regression he need to go to You fire Coughlin, your next Coach gets a year and 3/4 and then the Coach after him gets two seasons. The Giants wants the Merry go round to stop , they like Judge ,Judge will get a third year and maybe a fourth if they have any success . |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Dec 16, 2021 10:46:24 GMT -5
None of us as fans know what is going on inside the Big Blue Teepee, the only thing clear is that the Giants need a new Direction, it has gotten old Giant retreads failing I know Gettlemens guys have been banged up but this how it goes with losing no improvement no biscuit. I would say this Mara seems hell bent on keeping Judge around, he can not and should not saddle a new GM with him as a lifetime appointment as head coach one more losing year that looks more like regression he need to go to You fire Coughlin, your next Coach gets a year and 3/4 and then the Coach after him gets two seasons. Mara wants the Merry go round to stop , he likes Judge ,Judge will get a third year and maybe a fourth if they have any success . If the guy coaches like he did this year the merry go round will not stop it will just be wasting another year, he will be retained I'm sure I will be interested to see if he can revert back to his rookie season where he was not the problem he and his coaches have been part of the issue this year. |
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Post by ratbastich on Dec 16, 2021 10:59:44 GMT -5
If I remember right Rozelle made Mara hire Young. Young hired Perkins who then left for his alma mater Alabama after the Bear retired. And we promoted Parcells. Yup but many seem to forget that Young was close to getting canned himself. Perkins in his four seasons went 6-10 4-12 9-7 4-5 (82 strike year) Parcells first season....83 3-12-1 We all know it worked out in the long run but George Young was going to be canned had Perkins not had a winning season in 83 Very much so. Young also hired Handley, so while a good GM early, he eventually waned too and the NFL started passing him by. One thing that Max Kellerman said the other day that stuck and something I alluded to is that every other coach who has a past you can look at and know what success looks like, for Judge you don't know what his success looks like. |
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Dec 16, 2021 11:02:40 GMT -5
Yup but many seem to forget that Young was close to getting canned himself. Perkins in his four seasons went 6-10 4-12 9-7 4-5 (82 strike year) Parcells first season....83 3-12-1 We all know it worked out in the long run but George Young was going to be canned had Perkins not had a winning season in 83 Very much so. Young also hired Handley, so while a good GM early, he eventually waned too and the NFL started passing him by. To add ,refuse to give BB a chance and cut Phil Simms after 11-5 season. |
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Post by solomonphoenix56 on Dec 16, 2021 12:02:02 GMT -5
The Maras are football enthusiasts that become dinosaurs when the league makes a leap. John and Chris will tell you their father was the “original scout” because back in the day he was underlining players names in football magazines and later brought them to the Giants. But as the league grew and scouting became an actual thing Wellingtons mom and pop operation was quickly left in the dust. Not until George Young got control and brought in the methods of Gil Brandt and the structures of a modern (at the time) franchise did they pull out of the disaster zone they were in. History is now repeating itself. The NFL has passed the Maras by. They need to give away more control than they’re used to (just like they did with Young) and let somebody come in and rebuild this from scratch. It is a project of similar scope (5+ years of doing it RIGHT) to get on track. The Maras have been passed by and until they recognize that we are going nowhere. Don't they believe that Joe Judge is the man who is supposedly implementing this new culture of success? Mara thinks that the turnaround is already underway and Joe Judge is the man for the job. I think John Mara believes we are already in year two of doing it RIGHT. That's why even though the team is losing badly week after week Judge is selling the fans on behind the scenes improvements in "culture" that nobody can actually witness. |
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te88
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Post by te88 on Dec 16, 2021 12:07:56 GMT -5
The Maras are football enthusiasts that become dinosaurs when the league makes a leap. John and Chris will tell you their father was the “original scout” because back in the day he was underlining players names in football magazines and later brought them to the Giants. But as the league grew and scouting became an actual thing Wellingtons mom and pop operation was quickly left in the dust. Not until George Young got control and brought in the methods of Gil Brandt and the structures of a modern (at the time) franchise did they pull out of the disaster zone they were in. History is now repeating itself. The NFL has passed the Maras by. They need to give away more control than they’re used to (just like they did with Young) and let somebody come in and rebuild this from scratch. It is a project of similar scope (5+ years of doing it RIGHT) to get on track. The Maras have been passed by and until they recognize that we are going nowhere. Don't they believe that Joe Judge is the man who is supposedly implementing this new culture of success? Mara thinks that the turnaround is already underway and Joe Judge is the man for the job. I think John Mara believes we are already in year two of doing it RIGHT. That's why even though the team is losing badly week after week Judge is selling the fans on behind the scenes improvements in "culture" that nobody can actually witness. Yeah based on how he is acting and commenting my assessment is that John Mara is still in the denial/ignorant of his own incompetency stage. Who he hires as GM and how much control that person is given will tell us all we need to know about whether we're starting the rebuild or whether we're still in the death spiral. |
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Tyrell
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Post by Tyrell on Dec 16, 2021 12:20:53 GMT -5
when a franchise goes through years and years of futility, when coach after coach fails, and the team onfield continues to do the same helpless things, the roster turns over and its the same garbage, you have to look higher and higher up the chain of command.
as much as we can rip apart judge or any coach and the lackluster efforts of any player, the more years that go on with this, the more it points right to John Mara.
Hes the admiral of this sinking ship, he himself can change the course of this whole thing by making proper decisions of his officers beneath him, and the direction of it all, assembling the right guys together, gm, head coach, etc, n the right way.
John Mara, mired in his own mess, with little evidence that hes going to do much to change it. I dont think hes an evil guy, I just think he's woefully unaware of his own weaknesses, or in denial of his methods.
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Post by jaymas on Dec 16, 2021 13:55:11 GMT -5
Undoubedtly that was a bad era, and a dark time (I wasn't alive, but I know plenty here were).
However, it's much easier than ever to turn your fortunes around in the NFL, even after just one bad season. That's not the luxury those guys had...the league of parity was not fully realized yet. That's why it's so shocking that for so long, the Giants haven't even been able to get back to mediocrity.
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Post by Martin on Dec 16, 2021 14:05:50 GMT -5
when a franchise goes through years and years of futility, when coach after coach fails, and the team onfield continues to do the same helpless things, the roster turns over and its the same garbage, you have to look higher and higher up the chain of command. as much as we can rip apart judge or any coach and the lackluster efforts of any player, the more years that go on with this, the more it points right to John Mara. Hes the admiral of this sinking ship, he himself can change the course of this whole thing by making proper decisions of his officers beneath him, and the direction of it all, assembling the right guys together, gm, head coach, etc, n the right way. John Mara, mired in his own mess, with little evidence that hes going to do much to change it. I dont think hes an evil guy, I just think he's woefully unaware of his own weaknesses, or in denial of his methods. If John Mara is unaware, than this is a long term issue for the team. All though it's worse if he knows what's going on. That is negligence.  |
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Post by Jomo on Dec 16, 2021 17:37:26 GMT -5
If I remember right Rozelle made Mara hire Young. Young hired Perkins who then left for his alma mater Alabama after the Bear retired. And we promoted Parcells. Yes, Roselle hit the first domino and Young led our climb out of the abyss. Wellington ran the team very much like his son. Exhibit A on that front came when he hired Andy Robustelli as GM. Robustelli, an undeniably great player, had no real credentials for the GM job and never had a team with a record better than 6-10. For those of you too young to remember that, Wellington was very much like his son...........thought he was a really good football mind and made mistake after mistake in trying to do something he wasn't cut out to do. And like his son, he had a soothing wrapper so he never really go splattered over his incompetence in running a franchise. As a founding owner in the NFL, he also held a special place in the league's history. |
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Post by Martin on Dec 16, 2021 17:46:08 GMT -5
If I remember right Rozelle made Mara hire Young. Young hired Perkins who then left for his alma mater Alabama after the Bear retired. And we promoted Parcells. Yes, Roselle hit the first domino and Young led our climb out of the abyss. Wellington ran the team very much like his son. Exhibit A on that front came when he hired Andy Robustelli as GM. Robustelli, an undeniably great player, had no real credentials for the GM job and never had a team with a record better than 6-10. For those of you too young to remember that, Wellington was very much like his son...........thought he was a really good football mind and made mistake after mistake in trying to do something he wasn't cut out to do. And like his son, he had a soothing wrapper so he never really go splattered over his incompetence in running a franchise. As a founding owner in the NFL, he also held a special place in the league's history. A lot of people don't understand that the ownership has never been stellar and now with modern day parity you can't operate this way and win. I don't want it to happen but it's gonna get real ugly. I am ready for it, but for some I don't think they are. |
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Post by Jomo on Dec 16, 2021 19:36:00 GMT -5
Yes, Roselle hit the first domino and Young led our climb out of the abyss. Wellington ran the team very much like his son. Exhibit A on that front came when he hired Andy Robustelli as GM. Robustelli, an undeniably great player, had no real credentials for the GM job and never had a team with a record better than 6-10. For those of you too young to remember that, Wellington was very much like his son...........thought he was a really good football mind and made mistake after mistake in trying to do something he wasn't cut out to do. And like his son, he had a soothing wrapper so he never really go splattered over his incompetence in running a franchise. As a founding owner in the NFL, he also held a special place in the league's history. A lot of people don't understand that the ownership has never been stellar and now with modern day parity you can't operate this way and win. I don't want it to happen but it's gonna get real ugly. I am ready for it, but for some I don't think they are. Yes! Being a grand old dude of the NFL does nothing to qualify you as a person who can lead a franchise strategically and otherwise. Ownership is a financial status and has NOTHING to do with ones qualifications to lead this organization as a brilliant CEO. With the salary cap, you can't just continue to fake it. It takes something much more than JM brings to the table. Our current "ceo", like his daddy is unwilling to accept that. |
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Post by Martin on Dec 16, 2021 21:14:22 GMT -5
A lot of people don't understand that the ownership has never been stellar and now with modern day parity you can't operate this way and win. I don't want it to happen but it's gonna get real ugly. I am ready for it, but for some I don't think they are. Yes! Being a grand old dude of the NFL does nothing to qualify you as a person who can lead a franchise strategically and otherwise. Ownership is a financial status and has NOTHING to do with ones qualifications to lead this organization as a brilliant CEO. With the salary cap, you can't just continue to fake it. It takes something much more than JM brings to the table.Our current "ceo", like his daddy is unwilling to accept that. The one thing Jomo that JM won't accept is the possibility that he needs a better football mind running HIS organization. JM thinks he is that mind and look where it's getting him. I would respect him immensely if he where to check his ego at the door and bring in an expert. Sadly his ego will destroy him and the fans will have to go down with this sinking ship. Maybe after a few more years of pathetic and less than mediocre football the light bulb may go on. You can't keep blaming GM's and coaches. |
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