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Post by Roosevelt on Jan 18, 2022 12:48:59 GMT -5
First off, this nephew just got this job so maybe we need to back off this kid just a bit.
John Mara is an intelligent man who's always been mindful of the mistakes of the past. I believe he has taken the correct steps now to bring in someone from the outside to get this team back on track. This is no different than when we brought in George Young. The difference since George, is the Mara's followed George's lead and hired from within with Ernie, Jerry and then Dave. The results speak for themself. 4 Super Bowl trophies plus one loss since 1979. Not too shabby but pretty awful of late. Next man up.
There is a reason he is in the that position. How about we hire football people that can be held accountable.
I understand the sentiment, but the Giants are no different than every other company in this regard, and it's a pretty useless exercise to concern yourself over with that since you have no direct knowledge of their individual performances nor can you change anything.
Chris Mara has been scouting players for a very long time. If the Mara's are guilty of anything it may be picking the wrong people and allowing them to run the club without intervention.
I don't believe for a second that the Mara's are tying anyone's hands and yet we fans are always suggesting that, while John constantly refers to that speculation as nonsense.
The guy has come out and made it very clear that the GM and HC are in charge of personnel decisions for the Giants. What we have seen throughout the history of the team supports that statement.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jan 18, 2022 12:50:08 GMT -5
Actually George brought Earnie here because he was having issues with the cap and drafting guys who were the new NFL types of that time, So really Earnie was kind of an outsider, it showed he turned over every stone possible to get a Franchise QB in here something the Giants weren't known for . Grabbing Collins when he was down and out and then putting his rep and lively hood on the line trading everything for Eli. Reese was more old school Giants then Earnie in my view. with some good drafting and a couple shrewd moves Earnie got the QBs that carried the Giants to 3 superbowls and the Pass rush and OL the 3 most important elements. Its a shame Ron Dayne and William Joseph didn't quite get er' done. Big names, though. Names, like Lavar Arrington! thats what I remember of Accorsi. Ernie didn't know how to scout as he simply wasn't that. He was a glorified Abrams, who before JR, was horrible in the draft. Dont believe me? just do some research. I've mentioned this many times but im not sure you understand that JR running Accorsi's drafts is what turned things around. Don't rembler Tuck Osi Eli Deihl Snee Jacobs Just to name a few. Reese was here the whole time watching but not learning which was obvious from his draft record. I have 0 against Jerry but I'm not giving him credit for what EA did and 0 blame for the mess that started with him. I root for GMs at year 4 if the teams is going in the wrong direction it is time for change, Jerry started with the cap good and the cabinets full coach QB pass rush OL in place, from 2009 on the drafts had been sub par thats why the team sucks. As one of the companies that run GM searches said the NFL is behind the times guys like Abrams are the guys that should be getting hired like Micky Loomis same back ground and EA who built the last threes Super Bowl rosters Giants had.
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Post by bluebuddha on Jan 18, 2022 14:44:03 GMT -5
I could be wrong but I don't think any WRs reached over 800 yards in 2017 either. I think DG was not GM yet. Beckham was hurt that season, only played 4 games and got 300 yards. Next season (his last for us) he played 12 and got >1,000 Exactly the year after Slayton only started 9 games and played 12 but had around 700 yards. Engram had 600 yards and only played 6 games. Shep and Tate got injured also that year. The biggest reason the reciever don't produce is the lack of targets. If the offensive goes 3 and out you are not getting many oppurtunities to throw. Add in the last 1000 yd reciever came before the rookie took after at Qb and you have the variables hat point to why. DG is partly responsible but rookie growing pains, bad olines and bad coaching and plays are also the culprit.
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Post by Dogecoin on Jan 18, 2022 14:51:23 GMT -5
Beckham was hurt that season, only played 4 games and got 300 yards. Next season (his last for us) he played 12 and got >1,000 Exactly the year after Slayton only started 9 games and played 12 but had around 700 yards. Engram had 600 yards and only played 6 games. Shep and Tate got injured also that year. The biggest reason the reciever don't produce is the lack of targets. If the offensive goes 3 and out you are not getting many oppurtunities to throw. Add in the last 1000 yd reciever came before the rookie took after at Qb and you have the variables hat point to why. DG is partly responsible but rookie growing pains, bad olines and bad coaching and plays are also the culprit. he went into free agency and kept paying big bucks to replace Beckham, with Tate and then Gallaway. His whole point seemed to be to try and prove he could replace him. what a joke, should have just kept him
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Modog
Special Teams
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Post by Modog on Jan 18, 2022 18:37:33 GMT -5
I hated when Beckham was traded. But alot of fan's were happy. People forget but once victor cruzs knees blew up, Beckham was the only one who made the Giants watchable from 2014-2016.
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Post by Rangers13 on Jan 18, 2022 21:07:00 GMT -5
I hated when Beckham was traded. But alot of fan's were happy. People forget but once victor cruzs knees blew up, Beckham was the only one who made the Giants watchable from 2014-2016. I didn't want to trade Beckham either but it needed to happen. He didn't want to be here and wanted out. Unfortunately we had to get rid of the disgruntled employee. Beckham was a great trade. Besides the awesome crippling cap hit the Giants got no OL or WR. Instead we got Peppers who really couldn’t cover and will a cap casualty, a run stuffer with Lawrence yet lost Tomlinson and edge-rusher Ximines. “Genius”
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Post by lt56 on Jan 18, 2022 22:21:12 GMT -5
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Post by DandyDon on Jan 18, 2022 23:34:15 GMT -5
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Post by myronguyton29 on Jan 19, 2022 9:21:06 GMT -5
exactly why we should have kept Odell..........But wait wait wait....... We were actually kinda decent then but shit just snowballed downhill with Fasty at the helm....................SMMFH
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Post by giantlegacy on Jan 19, 2022 10:11:49 GMT -5
Easy Watching Odell in the playoffs
Then Watching the main guy we should have replaced him with I'm 2019 be part of a potentially lethal offense this weekend (AJ Brown )on a rookie deal while we pay a wish version of him 72 million to have a nothingburger year
Then let's pour salt in the wound Mooney eating us alive week 16 when we could have had him in the 4th Then Castleberry on the Chiefs who we could have had in the trade back this year with Mooney
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Post by giantlegacy on Jan 19, 2022 10:13:21 GMT -5
Exactly the year after Slayton only started 9 games and played 12 but had around 700 yards. Engram had 600 yards and only played 6 games. Shep and Tate got injured also that year. The biggest reason the reciever don't produce is the lack of targets. If the offensive goes 3 and out you are not getting many oppurtunities to throw. Add in the last 1000 yd reciever came before the rookie took after at Qb and you have the variables hat point to why. DG is partly responsible but rookie growing pains, bad olines and bad coaching and plays are also the culprit. he went into free agency and kept paying big bucks to replace Beckham, with Tate and then Gallaway. His whole point seemed to be to try and prove he could replace him. what a joke, should have just kept him He made a feeble at best attempt to replace him...he didn't want yo replace him because he wanted to prove he could build a team like you d8d in 1979 We got exactly this only we got the 1977 version
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mattmeyerbud
Special Teams
in a ball in a dark room crying
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Post by mattmeyerbud on Jan 20, 2022 8:57:53 GMT -5
Beckham was hurt that season, only played 4 games and got 300 yards. Next season (his last for us) he played 12 and got >1,000 Since he was traded he’s had 1 thousand yard season and that of course includes this year with 17 games. As much as I've soured on Beckham, that is really more of a case of him getting Mayfield'd. Not sure what his contract status is but this postseason and next season as Ram, he will shine. We will have some broken hearts about it but then he'll do something stupid and we'll all be like, "oh yea"
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mattmeyerbud
Special Teams
in a ball in a dark room crying
Posts: 217
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Post by mattmeyerbud on Jan 20, 2022 9:01:51 GMT -5
I like to look forward not back. If we look back 2006 was a long time ago the last time there was any competence in that front office and 2015 the last time they had a coach worth shit, TCs 6-10 seasons shows just how pathetic it has been no one else with out spending 200+ mill could break the 6 win mark, This franchise is exactly where it should be and the only thing that could have changed that is a clean sweep in 2015 GM/ Coach and QB, they are doing that now a 6 years late, better late then never. Couldn't agree more. As good as Jerry Reese's first draft was, he never found that success again. The last time the front office was solid, top to bottom, probably was 2006! Would anyone trust the Giants of the last decade with only 4 picks going into a draft lmao???? That idea horrifies me right now with the state they're in lol But they nailed all of those picks in 05. Jacobs, Tuck, Webster...who was the fourth?? 🤔 Going to start an old school battle about Reese but his drafts were more victims of injury. Manningham, T2, Phillips, Nicks, Chad Jones, Wilson But there were definitely alot of awful picks. I just think the awful picks are enhanced because these guys couldn't stay healthy
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Post by nick030567 on Jan 20, 2022 9:27:16 GMT -5
Couldn't agree more. As good as Jerry Reese's first draft was, he never found that success again. The last time the front office was solid, top to bottom, probably was 2006! Would anyone trust the Giants of the last decade with only 4 picks going into a draft lmao???? That idea horrifies me right now with the state they're in lol But they nailed all of those picks in 05. Jacobs, Tuck, Webster...who was the fourth?? 🤔 Going to start an old school battle about Reese but his drafts were more victims of injury. Manningham, T2, Phillips, Nicks, Chad Jones, Wilson But there were definitely alot of awful picks. I just think the awful picks are enhanced because these guys couldn't stay healthy I agree. I have always acknowledged this. It made it a lot harder to rebuild the trenches when your most talented players are derailed by a career altering injury. It's insane to think that they really only had Nicks and Cruz healthy for ONE season. He was not the same after his injuries piled up in 2012 ....don't forget Jon Goff the MLB who showed great progress in 2010. Even guys like Jay Alford, a really good rotational piece. And who can forget JPPs hand, along with his injuries in 2012, 2013 and 2016. You could even say OBJ hasn't been the same since his injury in 2017 Even Tuck too, never quite the same after 2010. He kinda had one last gasp in 2013, played very inspired down the stretch.
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Post by jmike on Jan 20, 2022 9:34:39 GMT -5
Couldn't agree more. As good as Jerry Reese's first draft was, he never found that success again. The last time the front office was solid, top to bottom, probably was 2006! Would anyone trust the Giants of the last decade with only 4 picks going into a draft lmao???? That idea horrifies me right now with the state they're in lol But they nailed all of those picks in 05. Jacobs, Tuck, Webster...who was the fourth?? 🤔 Going to start an old school battle about Reese but his drafts were more victims of injury. Manningham, T2, Phillips, Nicks, Chad Jones, Wilson But there were definitely alot of awful picks. I just think the awful picks are enhanced because these guys couldn't stay healthy I think Reese simply got promoted beyond the Peter Principle. He was excellent at evaluating talent, but he wasn't so good at finding good talent evaluators to surround himself with. Ross is the clear example. It is why the front office performance got progressively worse over time. This is my concern about these GM candidates. Hortiz, Peters, etc... seem like great talent evaluators; but the GM's job is to make decisions based on information from the talent evaluators. Can they find good people, would they even know what to look for in a scouting director? I have no idea and I think these interviews should be more about how prepared they are to build and develop a front office and less about how good their previous player evaluations were. If they got to this point, we can be pretty confident they are good talent evaluators. Now they need to go out and find more people like they were.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jan 20, 2022 9:41:07 GMT -5
Going to start an old school battle about Reese but his drafts were more victims of injury. Manningham, T2, Phillips, Nicks, Chad Jones, Wilson But there were definitely alot of awful picks. I just think the awful picks are enhanced because these guys couldn't stay healthy I think Reese simply got promoted beyond the Peter Principle. He was excellent at evaluating talent, but he wasn't so good at finding good talent evaluators to surround himself with. Ross is the clear example. It is why the front office performance got progressively worse over time. This is my concern about these GM candidates. Hortiz, Peters, etc... seem like great talent evaluators; but the GM's job is to make decisions based on information from the talent evaluators. Can they find good people, would they even know what to look for in a scouting director? I have no idea and I think these interviews should be more about how prepared they are to build and develop a front office and less about how good their previous player evaluations were. If they got to this point, we can be pretty confident they are good talent evaluators. Now they need to go out and find more people like they were. Ross the albatross...
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Post by snyder55 on Jan 20, 2022 10:29:40 GMT -5
More like every person fired since KG "got Mara-ed" I do not expect it to change. We will be having this again in 2 years You got incert name-ed Our HC incert name sucks? Our offensive line incert 5 names is the worst Our QB incert name is a backup. How many times are we going have these exact same threads. Bash everyone except the perpetrators. I hope I am wrong. History is on my side. Dave didn’t get us into this mess and he didn’t get us out either but that does not mean Mara and Tisch cannot find the right combo of GM and HC. I'm probably wrong about this but I always had the feeling that Gettleman's hands were tied by Mara and that Dave did what he was told in order to keep his job...
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 20, 2022 10:33:05 GMT -5
Going to start an old school battle about Reese but his drafts were more victims of injury. Manningham, T2, Phillips, Nicks, Chad Jones, Wilson But there were definitely alot of awful picks. I just think the awful picks are enhanced because these guys couldn't stay healthy I think Reese simply got promoted beyond the Peter Principle. He was excellent at evaluating talent, but he wasn't so good at finding good talent evaluators to surround himself with. Ross is the clear example. It is why the front office performance got progressively worse over time. This is my concern about these GM candidates. Hortiz, Peters, etc... seem like great talent evaluators; but the GM's job is to make decisions based on information from the talent evaluators. Can they find good people, would they even know what to look for in a scouting director? I have no idea and I think these interviews should be more about how prepared they are to build and develop a front office and less about how good their previous player evaluations were. If they got to this point, we can be pretty confident they are good talent evaluators. Now they need to go out and find more people like they were. I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Ross. What players do you know he advocated for that ended up being poor choices? What players did we miss out on because of Marc Ross? How did Marc Ross specifically harm the future of the Giants? How is it that Marc Ross accumulated such power? The bottom line is that as the team had more success..., the more Tom Coughlin became more powerful in picking players and general team building.
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Post by jmike on Jan 20, 2022 10:40:04 GMT -5
I think Reese simply got promoted beyond the Peter Principle. He was excellent at evaluating talent, but he wasn't so good at finding good talent evaluators to surround himself with. Ross is the clear example. It is why the front office performance got progressively worse over time. This is my concern about these GM candidates. Hortiz, Peters, etc... seem like great talent evaluators; but the GM's job is to make decisions based on information from the talent evaluators. Can they find good people, would they even know what to look for in a scouting director? I have no idea and I think these interviews should be more about how prepared they are to build and develop a front office and less about how good their previous player evaluations were. If they got to this point, we can be pretty confident they are good talent evaluators. Now they need to go out and find more people like they were. I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Ross. What players do you know he advocated for that ended up being poor choices? What players did we miss out on because of Marc Ross? How did Marc Ross specifically harm the future of the Giants? How is it that Marc Ross accumulated such power? The bottom line is that as the team had more success..., the more Tom Coughlin became more powerful in picking players and general team building. I'm not going to get into all the specifics I have learned about Ross. But he has a reputation across the NFL as a poor talent evaluator and a worse work ethic. The main reason Reese has not been able to find another opportunity to be a GM in the NFL is because of two main things, #1 he hired Ross and #2 he didn't fire Ross. Owners do not want GMs who will both make a bad hire and then refuse to fix that mistake when it becomes evident.
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Post by Rangers13 on Jan 20, 2022 10:51:47 GMT -5
Going to start an old school battle about Reese but his drafts were more victims of injury. Manningham, T2, Phillips, Nicks, Chad Jones, Wilson But there were definitely alot of awful picks. I just think the awful picks are enhanced because these guys couldn't stay healthy Imo, and Reese had stated he would always go skill first really hurt him. Yes, there were injuries yet he went too often with players who don’t lineup with their hand on the ground. Regardless, Reese always manned up and stood before the media. If the team was 1-6 he stood up and said “i’m the reason we’re 1-6” i front of the media. Quite the opposite for this jackass Gettleman who hid from everybody as his coach was the scapegoat and he awarded himself a self-serving retirement photo opp. He left in silence whereas Reese thanked everybody.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jan 20, 2022 11:00:55 GMT -5
Gettleman is/was the Rich Kotite or GMs
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 20, 2022 11:26:38 GMT -5
I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Ross. What players do you know he advocated for that ended up being poor choices? What players did we miss out on because of Marc Ross? How did Marc Ross specifically harm the future of the Giants? How is it that Marc Ross accumulated such power? The bottom line is that as the team had more success..., the more Tom Coughlin became more powerful in picking players and general team building. I'm not going to get into all the specifics I have learned about Ross. But he has a reputation across the NFL as a poor talent evaluator and a worse work ethic. The main reason Reese has not been able to find another opportunity to be a GM in the NFL is because of two main things, #1 he hired Ross and #2 he didn't fire Ross. Owners do not want GMs who will both make a bad hire and then refuse to fix that mistake when it becomes evident. Of course you aren't.....because you don't know of any. In other words...You have no idea what you're talking about regarding Marc Ross.
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Modog
Special Teams
Posts: 1,198
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Post by Modog on Jan 20, 2022 11:35:01 GMT -5
iirc didn't Marc Ross interview for some GM Positions while he was head scout here?. Surely that wasn't just because of the rooney rule? I think your right ross was probably not a good talent evaluator since he failed to latch on anywhere once Reese was fired. But curious how you can insult his work ethic
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Post by jmike on Jan 20, 2022 11:50:26 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into all the specifics I have learned about Ross. But he has a reputation across the NFL as a poor talent evaluator and a worse work ethic. The main reason Reese has not been able to find another opportunity to be a GM in the NFL is because of two main things, #1 he hired Ross and #2 he didn't fire Ross. Owners do not want GMs who will both make a bad hire and then refuse to fix that mistake when it becomes evident. Of course you aren't.....because you don't know of any. In other words...You have no idea what you're talking about regarding Marc Ross. K, go with that.
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Post by jmike on Jan 20, 2022 11:52:18 GMT -5
iirc didn't Marc Ross interview for some GM Positions while he was head scout here?. Surely that wasn't just because of the rooney rule? I think your right ross was probably not a good talent evaluator since he failed to latch on anywhere once Reese was fired. But curious how you can insult his work ethic I'm just going based on what I hear from people who have given me solid information in the past. Maybe they have been right on everything else, but this time they are just making shit up. Possible, sure, not likely.
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 20, 2022 12:47:01 GMT -5
Of course you aren't.....because you don't know of any. In other words...You have no idea what you're talking about regarding Marc Ross. K, go with that. In other words....you won't make your case.......just because. I've found in my life that when someone is unwilling to provide evidence to support their position.....they don't have any.
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Post by jmike on Jan 20, 2022 12:56:29 GMT -5
K, go with that. In other words....you won't make your case.......just because. I've found in my life that when someone is unwilling to provide evidence to support their position.....they don't have any. No, I'm not willing to argue with you about stuff I know and you don't believe I know. I just don't care. I only enter into an argument when there is a possibility I am wrong and I may learn something. This isn't one of those cases. I am also unwilling to provide any information on the people who provide me with some of these tidbits. Which would be really the only proof that it comes from a reliable source.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 20, 2022 12:59:56 GMT -5
I would appreciate a little more specificity regarding Ross. What players do you know he advocated for that ended up being poor choices? What players did we miss out on because of Marc Ross? How did Marc Ross specifically harm the future of the Giants? How is it that Marc Ross accumulated such power? The bottom line is that as the team had more success..., the more Tom Coughlin became more powerful in picking players and general team building. I'm not going to get into all the specifics I have learned about Ross. But he has a reputation across the NFL as a poor talent evaluator and a worse work ethic. The main reason Reese has not been able to find another opportunity to be a GM in the NFL is because of two main things, #1 he hired Ross and #2 he didn't fire Ross. Owners do not want GMs who will both make a bad hire and then refuse to fix that mistake when it becomes evident. There is no argument that Reese was a terrific GM for the first 4 or 5 years of his Giants' tenure. I have no idea what changed or what went wrong. Many here view it as Ross, who knows? If that wasn't the cause, that's fine it just puts it all back on Reese. It's a results business. Reese had great results first half and horrendous results second half. Gettelman clearly outperformed him by consistently being horrendous.
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Post by jmike on Jan 20, 2022 13:07:48 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into all the specifics I have learned about Ross. But he has a reputation across the NFL as a poor talent evaluator and a worse work ethic. The main reason Reese has not been able to find another opportunity to be a GM in the NFL is because of two main things, #1 he hired Ross and #2 he didn't fire Ross. Owners do not want GMs who will both make a bad hire and then refuse to fix that mistake when it becomes evident. There is no argument that Reese was a terrific GM for the first 4 or 5 years of his Giants' tenure. I have no idea what changed or what went wrong. Many here view it as Ross, who knows? If that wasn't the cause, that's fine it just puts it all back on Reese. It's a results business. Reese had great results first half and horrendous results second half. Gettelman clearly outperformed him by consistently being horrendous. Yeah, but the back and forth about Reese and Ross kind of takes away from the point of my post. Which is the GM's individual talent evaluation ability is less important than his ability to build a team that can evaluate talent. I don't know if any of these guys can do that and I hope that is the focus of the interviews, not their individual evaluation record. Which will be good for any of them if they have gotten to this point.
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Post by Morehead State on Jan 20, 2022 13:46:25 GMT -5
In other words....you won't make your case.......just because. I've found in my life that when someone is unwilling to provide evidence to support their position.....they don't have any. No, I'm not willing to argue with you about stuff I know and you don't believe I know. I just don't care. I only enter into an argument when there is a possibility I am wrong and I may learn something. This isn't one of those cases. I am also unwilling to provide any information on the people who provide me with some of these tidbits. Which would be really the only proof that it comes from a reliable source. What an easy position to take. Not like you to be so chicken. Maybe you should run for Congress.
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