The Giants response to Pat Leonard

[Roosevelt]

I have yet to read the article below by Paul, but it's obvious what's going on here.

Brian Daboll needs to evolve after Giants coaching mess

By Paul Schwartz

If we have seen the best of Brian Daboll as an NFL head coach, then it is not good enough. And it could be that he needs to display a lighter touch with his staff.

This is what is called evolving on the job — ask two-time Super Bowl champion Tom Coughlin all about that — and you can bet Daboll will partake in the “self reflection’’ that someone in the Giants building believes will be the aftereffect of the ugliness that led to defensive coordinator Wink Martindale storming out the door.

Make no mistake, Daboll within the organization did not take a hit for how this all went down. Could Daboll in his second year as a head coach at any level tried to smooth things over more adroitly? Perhaps. But there is a feeling within the organization that Martindale’s quirks and what increasingly was viewed as his lack of being a team player grew into issues that had to be expunged, unless Martindale changed his ways.

Thus, the Giants do not see themselves as a damaged franchise because Martindale cursed out Daboll and abruptly left the premises after Daboll informed him that two Martindale loyalists, outside linebackers coach Drew Wilkins and his younger brother, Kevin, a defensive assistant, were getting fired.

And the Giants know all about Daboll’s running-hot persona, on the sideline, on the headset, on the practice field, and do not view him as a raving lunatic who needs to tone it down. Not that he is impervious to learning and growth.

Daboll is going about his business of hiring staff replacements — he added on Tuesday a running backs coach and an executive director of player performance — and the Giants expect Mike Kafka, the offensive coordinator, will remain in his current position — unless he gets a head coaching gig (the Titans interviewed him and Seahawks will, as well). Kafka, 36, is regarded by the Giants as an excellent young coach and is valued as a team-first assistant who does not make waves and always defers to Daboll in his public comments.

There is not a fear inside the building that the Martindale affair will dissuade quality coaches from joining Daboll’s staff. There remains a belief in the lure of the New York Giants. That, of course, remains to be seen. There is no rush to find a new defensive coordinator and special teams coordinator and the Giants will likely wait until after this weekend’s playoff games to expedite that process.

There are idiosyncrasies that are tolerated when a team is winning and a certain side of the ball is dominating. There was not enough winning overall and not much dominating from a unit that finished 27th in the league in team defense.

It attracted attention that as almost the entire coaching staff ate together in the team cafeteria, Martindale, Drew and Kevin Wilkins often were in an office, behind closed doors. That rubbed some the wrong way. There were also incidents that were perceived as undermining the chain of command.

An example: During the week of practice leading into the Christmas Day game in Philadelphia, it was noticed that outside linebacker Tomon Fox was wearing jersey No. 94, instead of the No. 49 he wore as a member of the practice squad. Daboll did not know about the change. Nor did general manager Joe Schoen. The investigation led to the equipment room, where it was learned that Martindale requested the switch because he intended to have Fox on the active roster for the game. That was news to Schoen and Daboll. Game-day personnel decisions are the purview of the head coach and the general manager.

It is true that Schoen for four games — victories over the Commanders, Patriots and Packers and a loss to the Saints — sensed there could be trouble brewing and donned a headset to monitor the communication amongst the coaches. He did this on his own — neither Daboll or Martindale asked him to listen in. During the 31-19 victory in Washington, Jihad Ward (offsides) and Kayvon Thibodeaux (roughing the passer) were called for penalties and Daboll complained to Martindale about the lack of discipline from the outside linebackers — the position coached by Drew Wilkins — reminding Martindale about Thibodeaux’s costly offsides penalty in the 10-7 overtime loss to the Jets. Daboll, though, did not blame Martindale for the loss to the Jets.

There are no signs whatsoever that Daboll has a player problem. The locker room that aligned with him so cohesively during his 2022 NFL Coach of the Year debut season remained unified around him in the far less successful sequel of 2023, when the Giants lost eight of their first 10 games and mostly stumbled to a record of 6-11.

To be a head coach in the NFL is to be a survivalist. They don’t fire themselves. When things go bad, heads roll and it is the head coach — sometimes at the behest of the general manager or ownership — who swings the ax. The best and brightest wield this power wisely and without rancor. The rancor part was not avoided with the Martindale parting and Daboll needs to make sure that does not happen again.

[BigBlueDog42]

Jan 16, 2024 22:41:34 GMT -5 Roosevelt said:

I have yet to read the article below by Paul, but it's obvious what's going on here.

Brian Daboll needs to evolve after Giants coaching mess

By Paul Schwartz

If we have seen the best of Brian Daboll as an NFL head coach, then it is not good enough. And it could be that he needs to display a lighter touch with his staff.

This is what is called evolving on the job — ask two-time Super Bowl champion Tom Coughlin all about that — and you can bet Daboll will partake in the “self reflection’’ that someone in the Giants building believes will be the aftereffect of the ugliness that led to defensive coordinator Wink Martindale storming out the door.

Make no mistake, Daboll within the organization did not take a hit for how this all went down. Could Daboll in his second year as a head coach at any level tried to smooth things over more adroitly? Perhaps. But there is a feeling within the organization that Martindale’s quirks and what increasingly was viewed as his lack of being a team player grew into issues that had to be expunged, unless Martindale changed his ways.

Thus, the Giants do not see themselves as a damaged franchise because Martindale cursed out Daboll and abruptly left the premises after Daboll informed him that two Martindale loyalists, outside linebackers coach Drew Wilkins and his younger brother, Kevin, a defensive assistant, were getting fired.

And the Giants know all about Daboll’s running-hot persona, on the sideline, on the headset, on the practice field, and do not view him as a raving lunatic who needs to tone it down. Not that he is impervious to learning and growth.

Daboll is going about his business of hiring staff replacements — he added on Tuesday a running backs coach and an executive director of player performance — and the Giants expect Mike Kafka, the offensive coordinator, will remain in his current position — unless he gets a head coaching gig (the Titans interviewed him and Seahawks will, as well). Kafka, 36, is regarded by the Giants as an excellent young coach and is valued as a team-first assistant who does not make waves and always defers to Daboll in his public comments.

There is not a fear inside the building that the Martindale affair will dissuade quality coaches from joining Daboll’s staff. There remains a belief in the lure of the New York Giants. That, of course, remains to be seen. There is no rush to find a new defensive coordinator and special teams coordinator and the Giants will likely wait until after this weekend’s playoff games to expedite that process.

There are idiosyncrasies that are tolerated when a team is winning and a certain side of the ball is dominating. There was not enough winning overall and not much dominating from a unit that finished 27th in the league in team defense.

It attracted attention that as almost the entire coaching staff ate together in the team cafeteria, Martindale, Drew and Kevin Wilkins often were in an office, behind closed doors. That rubbed some the wrong way. There were also incidents that were perceived as undermining the chain of command.

An example: During the week of practice leading into the Christmas Day game in Philadelphia, it was noticed that outside linebacker Tomon Fox was wearing jersey No. 94, instead of the No. 49 he wore as a member of the practice squad. Daboll did not know about the change. Nor did general manager Joe Schoen. The investigation led to the equipment room, where it was learned that Martindale requested the switch because he intended to have Fox on the active roster for the game. That was news to Schoen and Daboll. Game-day personnel decisions are the purview of the head coach and the general manager.

It is true that Schoen for four games — victories over the Commanders, Patriots and Packers and a loss to the Saints — sensed there could be trouble brewing and donned a headset to monitor the communication amongst the coaches. He did this on his own — neither Daboll or Martindale asked him to listen in. During the 31-19 victory in Washington, Jihad Ward (offsides) and Kayvon Thibodeaux (roughing the passer) were called for penalties and Daboll complained to Martindale about the lack of discipline from the outside linebackers — the position coached by Drew Wilkins — reminding Martindale about Thibodeaux’s costly offsides penalty in the 10-7 overtime loss to the Jets. Daboll, though, did not blame Martindale for the loss to the Jets.

There are no signs whatsoever that Daboll has a player problem. The locker room that aligned with him so cohesively during his 2022 NFL Coach of the Year debut season remained unified around him in the far less successful sequel of 2023, when the Giants lost eight of their first 10 games and mostly stumbled to a record of 6-11.

To be a head coach in the NFL is to be a survivalist. They don’t fire themselves. When things go bad, heads roll and it is the head coach — sometimes at the behest of the general manager or ownership — who swings the ax. The best and brightest wield this power wisely and without rancor. The rancor part was not avoided with the Martindale parting and Daboll needs to make sure that does not happen again.

To me it was always a 2 way street, the real story is somewhere in the middle.

As a fan I'm ready to move on Wink was pretty good while here it just was not a fit it is early in this latest rebuild it is better to get these things over and out of the way.

The tension was real credit to both keeping it away from the players Giants have protocol to be followed when changing players number and letting people know who is coming to the game this just got out of control and childish wish Wink well unless he lands in the division and look forward to a knew start and a better offseason.

[McCherry]

This doesn't seem like much of a denial of Leonard's report. It just doesn't paint Daboll as the villain, which I think is closer to the truth.

I don't believe the Giants are in chaos, or are a laughing stock because they fired the coaches everyone expected them to. To the contrary, this is a team that remarkably finished 4-3 after a horrific 2-8 start and went into the offseason on a positive note. 

I think this is a great job by Schwartz of nailing the reality of the situation, as opposed to Leonard's dramatized anti-Daboll slant.

[jaymas]

If true, this is very interesting:

"It attracted attention that as almost the entire coaching staff ate together in the team cafeteria, Martindale, Drew and Kevin Wilkins often were in an office, behind closed doors. That rubbed some the wrong way. There were also incidents that were perceived as undermining the chain of command.

An example: During the week of practice leading into the Christmas Day game in Philadelphia, it was noticed that outside linebacker Tomon Fox was wearing jersey No. 94, instead of the No. 49 he wore as a member of the practice squad. Daboll did not know about the change. Nor did general manager Joe Schoen. The investigation led to the equipment room, where it was learned that Martindale requested the switch because he intended to have Fox on the active roster for the game. That was news to Schoen and Daboll. Game-day personnel decisions are the purview of the head coach and the general manager."

[Zimonami]

You've seen this same kind of problems between a HC and DC or OC, for example with Buddy Ryan and Mike Ditka in '85. I honestly think the root of the problem becomes Wink, 12 years older than Dabs, being a bit jealous and perplexed why a young whippersnapper like Dabs gets a head coaches gig before him, and here he is, again, 2nd banana in the pecking order to a younger man. Wink won't be happy anymore being a DC to a younger man that got the HC chance ahead of him.... just MO.

[ratbastich]

While this story proves a lot of what Leonard says it also softens a lot of the pointier parts of the story. Like Bigbluedog said, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Daboll fired Wink's assistants and Wink walked out afterwards. This spin piece (Leonard's was as well, but leaning to other extreme) don't really cover the reason why, though it can be guessed as a schism, due to the story pointing out they ate in their offices while the rest of the team ate together. The whole thing still stinks and on top of the Giants just sucking there is now extracurricular crap.

[Fletch842]

This one does sound more believable, if Wink and his boys really did separate themselves, that's pretty bad, and if that numbers change incident is true, we don't know what other subversive things Wink was orchestrating. Also, it looks like other coaches didn't receive the memo not to come here, as we have hired a few already. Hopefully this all blows over so we can get back to bickering about prospects, and the draft...

[ratbastich]

Jan 17, 2024 6:58:26 GMT -5 Fletch842 said:

This one does sound more believable

Not really, it sounds more like a counter piece and just as bad as Leonard's trying to let everyone know that there is nothing to see here. Two extremes, one to say Daboll is a tyrant and the other to paint him as a flawed saint.

[cdngfan]

Whether it’s truth or style, this piece seems to be more rooted in reality because there’s less emotion in how it’s presented compared to Leonard’s.

It also seems to be backed up by what little we can see as fans. Daboll’s sideline persona was VERY toned down in the last 5-6 games compared to the beginning of the season. Players seemed to be playing hard. Didn’t look like anyone was mailing it in. The locker room seems clear on what they have to do.

Leonard’s piece made it seem like Daboll gets his protein by stealing babies in the dark of night.

There’s plenty to tag Daboll with. Credit to Schoen for putting on a headset (with no one in the press noticing or hearing about it until now. Again, I like the ship he runs). That, in and of itself, suggests that Daboll’s persona with coaches is a legit issue.

I don’t want us to move on from another HC yet again and start over yet again, so I acknowledge my own bias. Daboll isn’t blameless by any stretch. But I’m up to 6 articles on this subject and collectively the verdict in my eyes is that Daboll needs to change how he reacts in game and Wink needs to learn that his talent as a coordinator doesn’t elevate him to the organizational level he thinks it does.

[cdngfan]

Jan 17, 2024 6:57:11 GMT -5 ratbastich said:

While this story proves a lot of what Leonard says it also softens a lot of the pointier parts of the story. Like Bigbluedog said, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Daboll fired Wink's assistants and Wink walked out afterwards. This spin piece (Leonard's was as well, but leaning to other extreme) don't really cover the reason why, though it can be guessed as a schism, due to the story pointing out they ate in their offices while the rest of the team ate together. The whole thing still stinks and on top of the Giants just sucking there is now extracurricular crap.

I think we can piece it together speculatively.

If Wink and his coaches seem to be separating themselves from the rest of the coaching staff, as bitter a pill as it is to swallow you fire the assistants which effectively breaks up the cabal and have more of a say in the replacements to prevent a reoccurrence. You know Wink is gonna be steamed but you hope there’s a 10% chance cooler heads prevail and you’re not shopping for a DC.

From Wink’s perspective the problems on offence require 90% improvement and the problems on defence require 30% improvement so to fire the coaches you brought over without consulting you first is yet another (perceived or otherwise) slap in the face and a sign you’re not welcome anymore. And a guy you’re not getting along with in the first place is just sticking it to you to prove a point.

The only other theory is you know Wink doesn’t want to stay but he’s going to make you fire him so he doesn’t look like the schmuck publically. So you shit-can his lieutenants to force his hand. Just as likely a scenario as above.

[Fletch842]

Jan 17, 2024 7:30:36 GMT -5 cdngfan said:

Whether it’s truth or style, this piece seems to be more rooted in reality because there’s less emotion in how it’s presented compared to Leonard’s.

It also seems to be backed up by what little we can see as fans. Daboll’s sideline persona was VERY toned down in the last 5-6 games compared to the beginning of the season. Players seemed to be playing hard. Didn’t look like anyone was mailing it in. The locker room seems clear on what they have to do.

Leonard’s piece made it seem like Daboll gets his protein by stealing babies in the dark of night.

There’s plenty to tag Daboll with. Credit to Schoen for putting on a headset (with no one in the press noticing or hearing about it until now. Again, I like the ship he runs). That, in and of itself, suggests that Daboll’s persona with coaches is a legit issue.

I don’t want us to move on from another HC yet again and start over yet again, so I acknowledge my own bias. Daboll isn’t blameless by any stretch. But I’m up to 6 articles on this subject and collectively the verdict in my eyes is that Daboll needs to change how he reacts in game and Wink needs to learn that his talent as a coordinator doesn’t elevate him to the organizational level he thinks it does.

and to your point above that, he seemed to be doing just that towards the end of the season.

[DandyDon]

Jan 17, 2024 6:57:11 GMT -5 ratbastich said:

While this story proves a lot of what Leonard says it also softens a lot of the pointier parts of the story. Like Bigbluedog said, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Daboll fired Wink's assistants and Wink walked out afterwards. This spin piece (Leonard's was as well, but leaning to other extreme) don't really cover the reason why, though it can be guessed as a schism, due to the story pointing out they ate in their offices while the rest of the team ate together. The whole thing still stinks and on top of the Giants just sucking there is now extracurricular crap.

What it proves is that Pat Leonard just prints whatever is scandalous by whoever tells him stuff.  Just like he did with DeAndre Baker.  He's a POS.

[cdngfan]

Jan 17, 2024 7:45:53 GMT -5 Fletch842 said:

Jan 17, 2024 7:30:36 GMT -5 cdngfan said:

Whether it’s truth or style, this piece seems to be more rooted in reality because there’s less emotion in how it’s presented compared to Leonard’s.

It also seems to be backed up by what little we can see as fans. Daboll’s sideline persona was VERY toned down in the last 5-6 games compared to the beginning of the season. Players seemed to be playing hard. Didn’t look like anyone was mailing it in. The locker room seems clear on what they have to do.

Leonard’s piece made it seem like Daboll gets his protein by stealing babies in the dark of night.

There’s plenty to tag Daboll with. Credit to Schoen for putting on a headset (with no one in the press noticing or hearing about it until now. Again, I like the ship he runs). That, in and of itself, suggests that Daboll’s persona with coaches is a legit issue.

I don’t want us to move on from another HC yet again and start over yet again, so I acknowledge my own bias. Daboll isn’t blameless by any stretch. But I’m up to 6 articles on this subject and collectively the verdict in my eyes is that Daboll needs to change how he reacts in game and Wink needs to learn that his talent as a coordinator doesn’t elevate him to the organizational level he thinks it does.

and to your point above that, he seemed to be doing just that towards the end of the season.

That’s all I’m looking for. Recognize a flaw and work on it. Is he doing enough? No idea. He doesn’t appear to be doing nothing.

I have the opposite personality to Dabs. I’m overly calm. Balances out my wife’s red-head persona. I don’t like people that can’t control themselves. What changes my mind is when I see someone legit try and change their natural tendencies, because if someone told me I need to fly off the handle more that would make me really uncomfortable and I’d be searching for excuses to not do it. Change is hard and most people come up with reasons not to do it.

[hadenough]

‘There remains a belief in the lure of the New York Giants.’ That’s Maras problem. There is no lure. Most of the players today have never seen the New York Giants have continued success. Most coaches just want a job and pay upgrade. They will go anywhere where the situation may be ok.

Mara needs to stop thinking the Giants are high and mighty above everyone else. They aren’t. They are more of a laughing stock right now.

[mendy]

Jan 16, 2024 22:57:52 GMT -5 BigBlueDog42 said:

As a fan I'm ready to move on Wink was pretty good

But was he, the Giants D was never ranked higher then 26-27 under Wink.

[cdngfan]

Jan 17, 2024 8:07:22 GMT -5 hadenough said:

‘There remains a belief in the lure of the New York Giants.’ That’s Maras problem. There is no lure. Most of the players today have never seen the New York Giants have continued success. Most coaches just want a job and pay upgrade. They will go anywhere where the situation may be ok.

Mara needs to stop thinking the Giants are high and mighty above everyone else. They aren’t. They are more of a laughing stock right now.

When we fired Judge this was my opinion.

But despite our frustration as fans I still think there’s a significant lure to a market this size. Schoen/Daboll were the FO catch of 2022 and I was absolutely shocked when they came here.

So I reminded myself that my frustration as a fan frankly clouds my opinion of the franchise.

[BigBlueDog42]

Jan 17, 2024 8:16:51 GMT -5 mendy said:

Jan 16, 2024 22:57:52 GMT -5 BigBlueDog42 said:

As a fan I'm ready to move on Wink was pretty good

But was he, the Giants D was never ranked higher then 26-27 under Wink.

Wink is like they say about Jones he needs a lot around him for his system to work in Baltimore thye had those pieces because that type of system has always been in place not exactly the same but aggressive pressure defense.

The kid they hired from Michigan McDonald I believe runs the same type of system and is having great success.

Thats why Jim Leonard X NFL Safety and Jet under Rex Ryan now at Wisconsin is my dark horse candidate he run the same type system so no personnel worries and is very good at it. 

[BigBlueDog42]

Jan 17, 2024 8:29:11 GMT -5 cdngfan said:

Jan 17, 2024 8:07:22 GMT -5 hadenough said:

‘There remains a belief in the lure of the New York Giants.’ That’s Maras problem. There is no lure. Most of the players today have never seen the New York Giants have continued success. Most coaches just want a job and pay upgrade. They will go anywhere where the situation may be ok.

Mara needs to stop thinking the Giants are high and mighty above everyone else. They aren’t. They are more of a laughing stock right now.

When we fired Judge this was my opinion.

But despite our frustration as fans I still think there’s a significant lure to a market this size. Schoen/Daboll were the FO catch of 2022 and I was absolutely shocked when they came here.

So I reminded myself that my frustration as a fan frankly clouds my opinion of the franchise.

NY is Lure they can make so much money off endorsements or start their career in media or what ever if the Giants return to prominence and KT Dext Banks are the lead dogs they will sit pretty on their national notoriety.

They have to win first as we see guys that have played here for a hot second Casillas is being paid weekly by the Giants to be on their platform there is even some money for the average Joe who wore the uni.

[hadenough]

Jan 17, 2024 8:29:11 GMT -5 cdngfan said:

Jan 17, 2024 8:07:22 GMT -5 hadenough said:

‘There remains a belief in the lure of the New York Giants.’ That’s Maras problem. There is no lure. Most of the players today have never seen the New York Giants have continued success. Most coaches just want a job and pay upgrade. They will go anywhere where the situation may be ok.

Mara needs to stop thinking the Giants are high and mighty above everyone else. They aren’t. They are more of a laughing stock right now.

When we fired Judge this was my opinion.

But despite our frustration as fans I still think there’s a significant lure to a market this size. Schoen/Daboll were the FO catch of 2022 and I was absolutely shocked when they came here.

So I reminded myself that my frustration as a fan frankly clouds my opinion of the franchise.

Then the Jets have the same lure.

It’s just an imagination of Mara because HE views the Giants as a great organization.

Players and coaches want to be paid…and they will go anywhere that does that.

If the lure of the Giants is so great…why haven’t they have a good coach in over 10 years? If the lure is true…the greatest players and coaches would be knocking down the door to get here. But, they aren’t.

[ratbastich]

Jan 17, 2024 8:36:32 GMT -5 hadenough said:

Jan 17, 2024 8:29:11 GMT -5 cdngfan said:

When we fired Judge this was my opinion.

But despite our frustration as fans I still think there’s a significant lure to a market this size. Schoen/Daboll were the FO catch of 2022 and I was absolutely shocked when they came here.

So I reminded myself that my frustration as a fan frankly clouds my opinion of the franchise.

Then the Jets have the same lure.

It’s just an imagination of Mara because HE views the Giants as a great organization.

Players and coaches want to be paid…and they will go anywhere that does that.

If the lure of the Giants is so great…why haven’t they have a good coach in over 10 years? If the lure is true…the greatest players and coaches would be knocking down the door to get here. But, they aren’t.

Who are the great coaches though? The great ones had been locked into jobs for years, some for over a decade. You rarely have a group of great coaches be released like this year and, unfortunately, most of the great coaches available may be on the decline. At some point new blood has to be assimilated into the coaching carousel and what sucks about it is over time they will get weeded out. Great players are the same way. If a team gets one, they usually hold onto them until they are no longer useful or the player decides to leave and when they do they often price themselves out of a lot of situations.

But, I agree with you about the Giants organization. The Steelers and Giants were seen as stable organizations and held in high esteem, but the Giants have been anything but, leaving the Steelers to sit on the mountain by themselves. I don't know if Mara is living in the glory days of his father, but....

[hadenough]

Jan 17, 2024 8:44:28 GMT -5 ratbastich said:

Jan 17, 2024 8:36:32 GMT -5 hadenough said:

Then the Jets have the same lure.

It’s just an imagination of Mara because HE views the Giants as a great organization.

Players and coaches want to be paid…and they will go anywhere that does that.

If the lure of the Giants is so great…why haven’t they have a good coach in over 10 years? If the lure is true…the greatest players and coaches would be knocking down the door to get here. But, they aren’t.

Who are the great coaches though? The great ones had been locked into jobs for years, some for over a decade. You rarely have a group of great coaches be released like this year and, unfortunately, most of the great coaches available may be on the decline. At some point new blood has to be assimilated into the coaching carousel and what sucks about it is over time they will get weeded out. Great players are the same way. If a team gets one, they usually hold onto them until they are no longer useful or the player decides to leave and when they do they often price themselves out of a lot of situations.

But, I agree with you about the Giants organization. The Steelers and Giants were seen as stable organizations and held in high esteem, but the Giants have been anything but, leaving the Steelers to sit on the mountain by themselves. I don't know if Mara is living in the glory days of his father, but....

If no great coaches are available and no great players are available…then there is no lure at all. Lure would be having great coaches and great players leave to come to the NYG. Lure is just a myth.

[imgrate]

Jan 17, 2024 7:30:36 GMT -5 cdngfan said:

Whether it’s truth or style, this piece seems to be more rooted in reality because there’s less emotion in how it’s presented compared to Leonard’s.

It also seems to be backed up by what little we can see as fans. Daboll’s sideline persona was VERY toned down in the last 5-6 games compared to the beginning of the season. Players seemed to be playing hard. Didn’t look like anyone was mailing it in. The locker room seems clear on what they have to do.

Leonard’s piece made it seem like Daboll gets his protein by stealing babies in the dark of night.

There’s plenty to tag Daboll with. Credit to Schoen for putting on a headset (with no one in the press noticing or hearing about it until now. Again, I like the ship he runs). That, in and of itself, suggests that Daboll’s persona with coaches is a legit issue.

I don’t want us to move on from another HC yet again and start over yet again, so I acknowledge my own bias. Daboll isn’t blameless by any stretch. But I’m up to 6 articles on this subject and collectively the verdict in my eyes is that Daboll needs to change how he reacts in game and Wink needs to learn that his talent as a coordinator doesn’t elevate him to the organizational level he thinks it does.

The other thing (that the schwartz article doesnt address) is Daboll taking over OC duties or switching them to Tierney and it not being beneficial (aka his decision making was not helpful). I suspect that Daboll was a bit more communicative in the swapping of responsibilities than Leonard’s article lets on, but it shows that he is also making large, wrong decisions behind the scenes.

[BigBlueDog42]

Jan 16, 2024 23:03:02 GMT -5 McCherry said:

This doesn't seem like much of a denial of Leonard's report. It just doesn't paint Daboll as the villain, which I think is closer to the truth.

I don't believe the Giants are in chaos, or are a laughing stock because they fired the coaches everyone expected them to. To the contrary, this is a team that remarkably finished 4-3 after a horrific 2-8 start and went into the offseason on a positive note. 

I think this is a great job by Schwartz of nailing the reality of the situation, as opposed to Leonard's dramatized anti-Daboll slant.

This stuff gets fed to the media like dogs loose in a butcher shop and guys like Leonard lap it up.

Thing is Daboll is the Boss what he says goes don't like it there's the door it opens 2 ways in or out take the out door if your not on board with the program.

Football is a team game from the front office to the Coaches what I read is Wink and his 2 guys had no time to eat with the coaches who seemed to all eat and hang together the includes the defensive coaches who were not in the the Clique LOL they had to eat with the rest of the staff.

Glad it's over to many baby games lets get on with the business of building team they have a chance to get better with their positional coaches and on D and special teams.

This was just not a good fit think it's better for everyone Wink seems like a decent enough guy hopefully he goes some where that he fits like a glove. 

[nick030567]

This is obviously a counter narrative to protect their interests, understandably.


I mean, the way Daboll acts is all over the sideline. You didn't really need it to come out, did you lol? And there was a noticeable change towards the end of the season in demeanor.

But it's not right to just judge and define Daboll. He has adapted and changed towards players, he'll gradually do the same towards coaches now. That is life. The journey of inner development manifesting externally.

[cdngfan]

Jan 17, 2024 8:36:32 GMT -5 hadenough said:

Jan 17, 2024 8:29:11 GMT -5 cdngfan said:

When we fired Judge this was my opinion.

But despite our frustration as fans I still think there’s a significant lure to a market this size. Schoen/Daboll were the FO catch of 2022 and I was absolutely shocked when they came here.

So I reminded myself that my frustration as a fan frankly clouds my opinion of the franchise.

Then the Jets have the same lure.

It’s just an imagination of Mara because HE views the Giants as a great organization.

Players and coaches want to be paid…and they will go anywhere that does that.

If the lure of the Giants is so great…why haven’t they have a good coach in over 10 years? If the lure is true…the greatest players and coaches would be knocking down the door to get here. But, they aren’t.

The Jets are the Mets.

Who’s refusing to come here? Who are the FA coaches and players that are turning us down?

Great teams will attract people desperate for a championship. I won’t question that.

The question isn’t where’s all the great talent. More often than not, great talent is developed, not bought, in the NFL.

[McCherry]

Jan 17, 2024 10:19:19 GMT -5 cdngfan said:

Jan 17, 2024 8:36:32 GMT -5 hadenough said:

Then the Jets have the same lure.

It’s just an imagination of Mara because HE views the Giants as a great organization.

Players and coaches want to be paid…and they will go anywhere that does that.

If the lure of the Giants is so great…why haven’t they have a good coach in over 10 years? If the lure is true…the greatest players and coaches would be knocking down the door to get here. But, they aren’t.

The Jets are the Mets.

Who’s refusing to come here? Who are the FA coaches and players that are turning us down?

Great teams will attract people desperate for a championship. I won’t question that.

The question isn’t where’s all the great talent. More often than not, great talent is developed, not bought, in the NFL.

Daboll and Schoen were both considered top candidates when we landed them at a time when the franchise was at an all-time low.

The Giants have always had a high rate of success landing whichever coaches or players in free agency they have set their sights on. For better (Okereke) or for worse (Golladay)

[jmike]

Jan 17, 2024 8:02:53 GMT -5 cdngfan said:

Jan 17, 2024 7:45:53 GMT -5 Fletch842 said:

and to your point above that, he seemed to be doing just that towards the end of the season.

 I don’t like people that can’t control themselves. 

See, now I thought we were getting along.  You hurt me CD, you hurt me bad.

[jmike]

Jan 17, 2024 8:57:19 GMT -5 hadenough said:

Jan 17, 2024 8:44:28 GMT -5 ratbastich said:

Who are the great coaches though? The great ones had been locked into jobs for years, some for over a decade. You rarely have a group of great coaches be released like this year and, unfortunately, most of the great coaches available may be on the decline. At some point new blood has to be assimilated into the coaching carousel and what sucks about it is over time they will get weeded out. Great players are the same way. If a team gets one, they usually hold onto them until they are no longer useful or the player decides to leave and when they do they often price themselves out of a lot of situations.

But, I agree with you about the Giants organization. The Steelers and Giants were seen as stable organizations and held in high esteem, but the Giants have been anything but, leaving the Steelers to sit on the mountain by themselves. I don't know if Mara is living in the glory days of his father, but....

If no great coaches are available and no great players are available…then there is no lure at all. Lure would be having great coaches and great players leave to come to the NYG. Lure is just a myth.

Not at all.....see I even found a polka dot one:

[McCherry]

Jan 16, 2024 23:04:43 GMT -5 jaymas said:

If true, this is very interesting:

"It attracted attention that as almost the entire coaching staff ate together in the team cafeteria, Martindale, Drew and Kevin Wilkins often were in an office, behind closed doors. That rubbed some the wrong way. There were also incidents that were perceived as undermining the chain of command.

An example: During the week of practice leading into the Christmas Day game in Philadelphia, it was noticed that outside linebacker Tomon Fox was wearing jersey No. 94, instead of the No. 49 he wore as a member of the practice squad. Daboll did not know about the change. Nor did general manager Joe Schoen. The investigation led to the equipment room, where it was learned that Martindale requested the switch because he intended to have Fox on the active roster for the game. That was news to Schoen and Daboll. Game-day personnel decisions are the purview of the head coach and the general manager."

I forgot about Tomon Fox, what the hell happened to him? 

[giantsalmon]

Jan 16, 2024 23:04:43 GMT -5 jaymas said:

If true, this is very interesting:

"It attracted attention that as almost the entire coaching staff ate together in the team cafeteria, Martindale, Drew and Kevin Wilkins often were in an office, behind closed doors. That rubbed some the wrong way. There were also incidents that were perceived as undermining the chain of command.

An example: During the week of practice leading into the Christmas Day game in Philadelphia, it was noticed that outside linebacker Tomon Fox was wearing jersey No. 94, instead of the No. 49 he wore as a member of the practice squad. Daboll did not know about the change. Nor did general manager Joe Schoen. The investigation led to the equipment room, where it was learned that Martindale requested the switch because he intended to have Fox on the active roster for the game. That was news to Schoen and Daboll. Game-day personnel decisions are the purview of the head coach and the general manager."

None of the coaches that took NYG to a SB would have put up with this nonsense.