giantsalmon
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Came over from a defunct board. Formerly LakeO Giant fan
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Post by giantsalmon on Jan 17, 2024 11:16:58 GMT -5
You've seen this same kind of problems between a HC and DC or OC, for example with Buddy Ryan and Mike Ditka in '85. I honestly think the root of the problem becomes Wink, 12 years older than Dabs, being a bit jealous and perplexed why a young whippersnapper like Dabs gets a head coaches gig before him, and here he is, again, 2nd banana in the pecking order to a younger man. Wink won't be happy anymore being a DC to a younger man that got the HC chance ahead of him.... just MO. This is a great observation Zim, I believe it to be true. Whether it was from day 1 or something that arrived in his mind, Wink felt he could succeed the underperforming Daboll (in Winks mind). Does anyone remember if Wink interviewed with NYG for the head job? |
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giantsalmon
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Came over from a defunct board. Formerly LakeO Giant fan
Posts: 4,024
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Post by giantsalmon on Jan 17, 2024 11:19:48 GMT -5
If no great coaches are available and no great players are available…then there is no lure at all. Lure would be having great coaches and great players leave to come to the NYG. Lure is just a myth. Not at all.....see I even found a polka dot one:  Hey, have you been rooting around in one of my Niagara river tackle boxes? Dots are big(popular and producers) on lures both on the Great Lakes and in the rivers |
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Post by jmike on Jan 17, 2024 11:27:51 GMT -5
Not at all.....see I even found a polka dot one: Hey, have you been rooting around in one of my Niagara river tackle boxes? Dots are big(popular and producers) on lures both on the Great Lakes and in the rivers Yes I have, and I was wondering about these I found in there, care to explain what you are fishing for with them?  |
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Post by Roswell on Jan 17, 2024 11:45:49 GMT -5
You've seen this same kind of problems between a HC and DC or OC, for example with Buddy Ryan and Mike Ditka in '85. I honestly think the root of the problem becomes Wink, 12 years older than Dabs, being a bit jealous and perplexed why a young whippersnapper like Dabs gets a head coaches gig before him, and here he is, again, 2nd banana in the pecking order to a younger man. Wink won't be happy anymore being a DC to a younger man that got the HC chance ahead of him.... just MO. I think that it's all about this very thing Zim. Jealousy. That doesn't excuse Daboll from losing it all too frequently for parts of the season. We have the Giant offense to blame for that. But if these recently surfaced stories are true, what does that say about Pat Leonard, or, for that matter, his sources? You can be relatively sure that these weren't secret occurences around the Giant campus and yet, no mention was made of them in Leonard's very lengthy article. A hit piece by a weasel, Pat Leonard. |
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Post by inthezone on Jan 17, 2024 11:58:16 GMT -5
Hey, have you been rooting around in one of my Niagara river tackle boxes? Dots are big(popular and producers) on lures both on the Great Lakes and in the rivers Yes I have, and I was wondering about these I found in there, care to explain what you are fishing for with them? Snapper fish. |
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Post by jaymas on Jan 17, 2024 12:00:45 GMT -5
I've never considered Paul Schwartz the "Giants guy" for stuff like this.
So not sure if that's the case here. Always just thought of him as a below-average columnist and beat reporter.
I will say I do believe the version of the Jets game story here rather than the quote being "You are gonna lose this one like you lost that one" because the latter seemed far too ridiculous.
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te88
Special Teams
Posts: 2,221
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Post by te88 on Jan 17, 2024 13:20:29 GMT -5
While this story proves a lot of what Leonard says it also softens a lot of the pointier parts of the story. Like Bigbluedog said, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Daboll fired Wink's assistants and Wink walked out afterwards. This spin piece (Leonard's was as well, but leaning to other extreme) don't really cover the reason why, though it can be guessed as a schism, due to the story pointing out they ate in their offices while the rest of the team ate together. The whole thing still stinks and on top of the Giants just sucking there is now extracurricular crap. I think we can piece it together speculatively. If Wink and his coaches seem to be separating themselves from the rest of the coaching staff, as bitter a pill as it is to swallow you fire the assistants which effectively breaks up the cabal and have more of a say in the replacements to prevent a reoccurrence. You know Wink is gonna be steamed but you hope there’s a 10% chance cooler heads prevail and you’re not shopping for a DC. From Wink’s perspective the problems on offence require 90% improvement and the problems on defence require 30% improvement so to fire the coaches you brought over without consulting you first is yet another (perceived or otherwise) slap in the face and a sign you’re not welcome anymore. And a guy you’re not getting along with in the first place is just sticking it to you to prove a point. The only other theory is you know Wink doesn’t want to stay but he’s going to make you fire him so he doesn’t look like the schmuck publically. So you shit-can his lieutenants to force his hand. Just as likely a scenario as above. When somebody (Wilkins) went leaking to the media (Glazer) during the season that removed any chance of working through anything. That is a fireable offence and had to be dealt with swiftly and directly. They waited until after the season to do it because they were actual professionals trying to keep things in house. All this other stuff doesn’t even matter to me. You go running and crying to the media (still running btw) you get shitcanned. It was icing on the cake to a year of being insubordinate. |
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Post by jmike on Jan 17, 2024 13:24:18 GMT -5
I think we can piece it together speculatively. If Wink and his coaches seem to be separating themselves from the rest of the coaching staff, as bitter a pill as it is to swallow you fire the assistants which effectively breaks up the cabal and have more of a say in the replacements to prevent a reoccurrence. You know Wink is gonna be steamed but you hope there’s a 10% chance cooler heads prevail and you’re not shopping for a DC. From Wink’s perspective the problems on offence require 90% improvement and the problems on defence require 30% improvement so to fire the coaches you brought over without consulting you first is yet another (perceived or otherwise) slap in the face and a sign you’re not welcome anymore. And a guy you’re not getting along with in the first place is just sticking it to you to prove a point. The only other theory is you know Wink doesn’t want to stay but he’s going to make you fire him so he doesn’t look like the schmuck publically. So you shit-can his lieutenants to force his hand. Just as likely a scenario as above. When somebody (Wilkins) went leaking to the media (Glazer) during the season that removed any chance of working through anything. That is a fireable offence and had to be dealt with swiftly and directly. They waited until after the season to do it because they were actual professionals trying to keep things in house. All this other stuff doesn’t even matter to me. You go running and crying to the media (still running btw) you get shitcanned. It was icing on the cake to a year of being insubordinate. I don't find Wink being surprised by the firing as plausible. Pissed sure, but surprised? No. It was an expected outcome. |
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te88
Special Teams
Posts: 2,221
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Post by te88 on Jan 17, 2024 13:34:47 GMT -5
When somebody (Wilkins) went leaking to the media (Glazer) during the season that removed any chance of working through anything. That is a fireable offence and had to be dealt with swiftly and directly. They waited until after the season to do it because they were actual professionals trying to keep things in house. All this other stuff doesn’t even matter to me. You go running and crying to the media (still running btw) you get shitcanned. It was icing on the cake to a year of being insubordinate. I don't find Wink being surprised by the firing as plausible. Pissed sure, but surprised? No. It was an expected outcome. If he knew the Wilkins leaked (likely) and said that he was surprised they got fired, then he’s being disingenuous. |
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Post by Blue Hulk on Jan 17, 2024 13:40:24 GMT -5
Y'all do realize Wink left the Ravens the same way pretty much, but since they had a lot of success, there wasn't as much fuss. But the guy left a winning team to come to a losing team...and he wasn't fired, so do the math.
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Post by GameTime on Jan 17, 2024 13:46:56 GMT -5
Hey, have you been rooting around in one of my Niagara river tackle boxes? Dots are big(popular and producers) on lures both on the Great Lakes and in the rivers Yes I have, and I was wondering about these I found in there, care to explain what you are fishing for with them? good for clamming too |
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Post by cdngfan on Jan 17, 2024 14:21:47 GMT -5
I think we can piece it together speculatively. If Wink and his coaches seem to be separating themselves from the rest of the coaching staff, as bitter a pill as it is to swallow you fire the assistants which effectively breaks up the cabal and have more of a say in the replacements to prevent a reoccurrence. You know Wink is gonna be steamed but you hope there’s a 10% chance cooler heads prevail and you’re not shopping for a DC. From Wink’s perspective the problems on offence require 90% improvement and the problems on defence require 30% improvement so to fire the coaches you brought over without consulting you first is yet another (perceived or otherwise) slap in the face and a sign you’re not welcome anymore. And a guy you’re not getting along with in the first place is just sticking it to you to prove a point. The only other theory is you know Wink doesn’t want to stay but he’s going to make you fire him so he doesn’t look like the schmuck publically. So you shit-can his lieutenants to force his hand. Just as likely a scenario as above. When somebody (Wilkins) went leaking to the media (Glazer) during the season that removed any chance of working through anything. That is a fireable offence and had to be dealt with swiftly and directly. They waited until after the season to do it because they were actual professionals trying to keep things in house. All this other stuff doesn’t even matter to me. You go running and crying to the media (still running btw) you get shitcanned. It was icing on the cake to a year of being insubordinate. Hey, going to the press isn’t a reasonable response to having a beef with your boss. It’s an intentional attempt at character assassination, at a time when your boss is already bloodied and on the ground. It’s worse than dirty. My Wink rant was an attempt to figure out how the “apparent” victim in this story (according to Pat Leonard at least) ends up losing his cool in front of the “maniac”. |
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te88
Special Teams
Posts: 2,221
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Post by te88 on Jan 17, 2024 14:46:09 GMT -5
When somebody (Wilkins) went leaking to the media (Glazer) during the season that removed any chance of working through anything. That is a fireable offence and had to be dealt with swiftly and directly. They waited until after the season to do it because they were actual professionals trying to keep things in house. All this other stuff doesn’t even matter to me. You go running and crying to the media (still running btw) you get shitcanned. It was icing on the cake to a year of being insubordinate. Hey, going to the press isn’t a reasonable response to having a beef with your boss. It’s an intentional attempt at character assassination, at a time when your boss is already bloodied and on the ground. It’s worse than dirty. My Wink rant was an attempt to figure out how the “apparent” victim in this story (according to Pat Leonard at least) ends up losing his cool in front of the “maniac”. Yeah there is a lot of disingenuous talk going on. No way that anybody was actually surprised about anything. Except for maybe Wilkins who thought he might get away with it. In the end how everybody was really feeling about each other simply bubbled over. Glad it’s now out of here. |
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Post by Blue Hulk on Jan 17, 2024 14:50:35 GMT -5
Hey, have you been rooting around in one of my Niagara river tackle boxes? Dots are big(popular and producers) on lures both on the Great Lakes and in the rivers Yes I have, and I was wondering about these I found in there, care to explain what you are fishing for with them? The only thing you are going to catch with those is the CLAP..... hahahaha |
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Jan 17, 2024 19:30:35 GMT -5
I don't believe Schwartz anymore than I believe Leonard. Schwartz knows where his bread is buttered. I seen Dabs on the sideline he looked like a piece of shit in those moments. And I wrote what I felt on this web site back then.
This is the best thing that can happen by any way you look at it. The team couldn't let Dabs go after 2 years after letting the last 3 HC's go after 2 years. And if Wink stayed it would have gotten worse not better. By Wink going his separate way we can move on. There are quite a number of good DC candidates to choose from. Lets get one and please lets not screw it up.
Kafka doesn't seem like a winner to me in his 2 years here. If it were up to me I would be looking elsewhere. But 2 new Coordinators in the same year. Philly screwed up big time trying that. So this is for me Kafka's year to make a big jump or good bye.
Speaking of Good Bye Dabs better shit or get off the pot as well.
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Post by Fletch842 on Jan 17, 2024 19:56:45 GMT -5
I don't believe Schwartz anymore than I believe Leonard. Schwartz knows where his bread is buttered. I seen Dabs on the sideline he looked like a piece of shit in those moments. And I wrote what I felt on this web site back then. This is the best thing that can happen by any way you look at it. The team couldn't let Dabs go after 2 years after letting the last 3 HC's go after 2 years. And if Wink stayed it would have gotten worse not better. By Wink going his separate way we can move on. There are quite a number of good DC candidates to choose from. Lets get one and please lets not screw it up. Kafka doesn't seem like a winner to me in his 2 years here. If it were up to me I would be looking elsewhere. But 2 new Coordinators in the same year. Philly screwed up big time trying that. So this is for me Kafka's year to make a big jump or good bye. Speaking of Good Bye Dabs better shit or get off the pot as well. I read that Riverboat Ron still strongly wants to coach, and is willing to be DC. He'd be pretty high on my list, good defensive coach for sure... |
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Jan 17, 2024 20:05:44 GMT -5
I don't believe Schwartz anymore than I believe Leonard. Schwartz knows where his bread is buttered. I seen Dabs on the sideline he looked like a piece of shit in those moments. And I wrote what I felt on this web site back then. This is the best thing that can happen by any way you look at it. The team couldn't let Dabs go after 2 years after letting the last 3 HC's go after 2 years. And if Wink stayed it would have gotten worse not better. By Wink going his separate way we can move on. There are quite a number of good DC candidates to choose from. Lets get one and please lets not screw it up. Kafka doesn't seem like a winner to me in his 2 years here. If it were up to me I would be looking elsewhere. But 2 new Coordinators in the same year. Philly screwed up big time trying that. So this is for me Kafka's year to make a big jump or good bye. Speaking of Good Bye Dabs better shit or get off the pot as well. I read that Riverboat Ron still strongly wants to coach, and is willing to be DC. He'd be pretty high on my list, good defensive coach for sure... I'm not sure, I think I would look around before I interviewed Ron. |
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Post by Roosevelt on Jan 17, 2024 20:29:46 GMT -5
I've never considered Paul Schwartz the "Giants guy" for stuff like this.So not sure if that's the case here. Always just thought of him as a below-average columnist and beat reporter. I will say I do believe the version of the Jets game story here rather than the quote being "You are gonna lose this one like you lost that one" because the latter seemed far too ridiculous. Not sure why, especially in recent years. It's been apparent to me that Paul is very close to the Mara's. I've never read anything by Paul ever in which he spoke out of turn or misled Giants fans. |
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mendy
Starter
Posts: 4,845
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Post by mendy on Jan 17, 2024 20:37:39 GMT -5
I don't believe Schwartz anymore than I believe Leonard. Schwartz knows where his bread is buttered. I seen Dabs on the sideline he looked like a piece of shit in those moments. And I wrote what I felt on this web site back then. This is the best thing that can happen by any way you look at it. The team couldn't let Dabs go after 2 years after letting the last 3 HC's go after 2 years. And if Wink stayed it would have gotten worse not better. By Wink going his separate way we can move on. There are quite a number of good DC candidates to choose from. Lets get one and please lets not screw it up. Kafka doesn't seem like a winner to me in his 2 years here. If it were up to me I would be looking elsewhere. But 2 new Coordinators in the same year. Philly screwed up big time trying that. So this is for me Kafka's year to make a big jump or good bye. Speaking of Good Bye Dabs better shit or get off the pot as well. I read that Riverboat Ron still strongly wants to coach, and is willing to be DC. He'd be pretty high on my list, good defensive coach for sure... Not in a million years |
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Post by Kruunch on Jan 17, 2024 20:39:50 GMT -5
I don't believe Schwartz anymore than I believe Leonard. Schwartz knows where his bread is buttered. I seen Dabs on the sideline he looked like a piece of shit in those moments. And I wrote what I felt on this web site back then. This is the best thing that can happen by any way you look at it. The team couldn't let Dabs go after 2 years after letting the last 3 HC's go after 2 years. And if Wink stayed it would have gotten worse not better. By Wink going his separate way we can move on. There are quite a number of good DC candidates to choose from. Lets get one and please lets not screw it up. Kafka doesn't seem like a winner to me in his 2 years here. If it were up to me I would be looking elsewhere. But 2 new Coordinators in the same year. Philly screwed up big time trying that. So this is for me Kafka's year to make a big jump or good bye. Speaking of Good Bye Dabs better shit or get off the pot as well. I read that Riverboat Ron still strongly wants to coach, and is willing to be DC. He'd be pretty high on my list, good defensive coach for sure... No chance in hell Daboll grabs 2x coach of the year.. Super Bowl runner-up Riverboat, Ron Rivera onto his staff. Just after a season where there was mutiny on his ship. The dust just settled as the gun smoke cleared.. five assistants met a watery grave. Besides swallowing his pride.. he’s going to have to take a big slice of humble pie after being at the highest chair for thirteen seasons. With the pressure to bounce back after our season sunk before we set sail.. The last thing Daboll wants is a coach who will be nipping at his heels. |
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Post by Fletch842 on Jan 17, 2024 20:48:32 GMT -5
I read that Riverboat Ron still strongly wants to coach, and is willing to be DC. He'd be pretty high on my list, good defensive coach for sure... No chance in hell Daboll grabs 2x coach of the year.. Super Bowl runner-up Riverboat, Ron Rivera onto his staff. Just after a season where there was mutiny on his ship. The dust just settled as the gun smoke cleared.. five assistants met a watery grave. Besides swallowing his pride.. he’s going to have to take a big slice of humble pie after being at the highest chair for thirteen seasons. With the pressure to bounce back after our season sunk before we set sail.. The last thing Daboll wants is a coach who will be nipping at his heels. I don't see Rivera acting like that. He's already taken the humble pie, haven't heard a single team in search of a head coach even mention him, so that's his only opportunity. Hell, for all we know, deep down inside he's ready for a slightly less demanding position at this point. I think he's a damn good coach, even if he didn't work out so well as HC overall. Plenty of great coordinators have been in that boat. |
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Post by inconvenientruth on Jan 17, 2024 20:50:24 GMT -5
I've never considered Paul Schwartz the "Giants guy" for stuff like this.So not sure if that's the case here. Always just thought of him as a below-average columnist and beat reporter. I will say I do believe the version of the Jets game story here rather than the quote being "You are gonna lose this one like you lost that one" because the latter seemed far too ridiculous. Not sure why, especially in recent years. It's been apparent to me that Paul is very close to the Mara's. I've never read anything by Paul ever in which he spoke out of turn or misled Giants fans. Paul is basically the head of the Mara contingent within the Giants beat. He passes along the Giants word. Now is he misleading anyone? That depends on perspective. The Giants truth means just that, it's what they want to project. |
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Post by Kruunch on Jan 17, 2024 21:00:34 GMT -5
No chance in hell Daboll grabs 2x coach of the year.. Super Bowl runner-up Riverboat, Ron Rivera onto his staff. Just after a season where there was mutiny on his ship. The dust just settled as the gun smoke cleared.. five assistants met a watery grave. Besides swallowing his pride.. he’s going to have to take a big slice of humble pie after being at the highest chair for thirteen seasons. With the pressure to bounce back after our season sunk before we set sail.. The last thing Daboll wants is a coach who will be nipping at his heels. I don't see Rivera acting like that. He's already taken the humble pie, haven't heard a single team in search of a head coach even mention him, so that's his only opportunity. Hell, for all we know, deep down inside he's ready for a slightly less demanding position at this point. I think he's a damn good coach, even if he didn't work out so well as HC overall. Plenty of great coordinators have been in that boat. He sees the writing on the wall.. No one wants him.. And he’s a free agent in a year where you have heavy hitters on the market. Once the Belichick and Vrabel domino fall. He will have only the table scraps to eat. I don’t question his ability to coach a defense.. only an idiot would throw arrows in his direction. I can’t see Daboll taking a coach with his years and clout onto his staff. Brian is still trying to rid the taste of Martindale from his mouth. |
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Post by Zimonami on Jan 17, 2024 21:35:26 GMT -5
You've seen this same kind of problems between a HC and DC or OC, for example with Buddy Ryan and Mike Ditka in '85. I honestly think the root of the problem becomes Wink, 12 years older than Dabs, being a bit jealous and perplexed why a young whippersnapper like Dabs gets a head coaches gig before him, and here he is, again, 2nd banana in the pecking order to a younger man. Wink won't be happy anymore being a DC to a younger man that got the HC chance ahead of him.... just MO. This is a great observation Zim, I believe it to be true. Whether it was from day 1 or something that arrived in his mind, Wink felt he could succeed the underperforming Daboll (in Winks mind). Does anyone remember if Wink interviewed with NYG for the head job? The Giants interviewed six candidates for the head coach position. In addition to Daboll, they spoke to former Miami Dolphins coach Brian Flores; defensive coordinators Leslie Frazier of Buffalo, Lou Anarumo of Cincinnati, Dan Quinn of Dallas and the Giants' Patrick Graham |
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giantsalmon
Starter
Came over from a defunct board. Formerly LakeO Giant fan
Posts: 4,024
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Post by giantsalmon on Jan 17, 2024 22:45:30 GMT -5
Hey, have you been rooting around in one of my Niagara river tackle boxes? Dots are big(popular and producers) on lures both on the Great Lakes and in the rivers Yes I have, and I was wondering about these I found in there, care to explain what you are fishing for with them? Well, I thought I had seen everything lure wise in the novelty category but thats a new one for me. My guess is the designer wanted to land a "trophy" by the looks of those bad ass hooks. |
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krappdetector
Special Teams
Trans-vegans ARE vegans! ..now where's my steak?
Posts: 1,478
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Post by krappdetector on Jan 18, 2024 14:32:12 GMT -5
Y'all do realize Wink left the Ravens the same way pretty much, but since they had a lot of success, there wasn't as much fuss. But the guy left a winning team to come to a losing team...and he wasn't fired, so do the math. It seems the Martindate-Wilkins trio got bought and sold as a package. What organization is gonna want the 3 musketeers after the Baltimore and Giants experience? If Wink has plans to keep his crew intact he's gonna face an uphill battle because that's got more red flags than a Chinese Communist parade. But stranger things have happened. |
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 18, 2024 19:20:16 GMT -5
We likely won't ever know the real truth behind all of this. We can make some assumptions (Daboll get's fired up, Wink has issues with authority/chain of command etc). But one thing is extremely clear to me, these players never once gave up on Daboll. They didn't quit. He has not lost the locker room. That to me means more than everything else.
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Post by myronguyton29 on Jan 18, 2024 19:30:25 GMT -5
We likely won't ever know the real truth behind all of this. We can make some assumptions (Daboll get's fired up, Wink has issues with authority/chain of command etc). But one thing is extremely clear to me, these players never once gave up on Daboll. They didn't quit. He has not lost the locker room. That to me means more than everything else. can't be said any better............. |
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Post by myronguyton29 on Jan 18, 2024 19:31:23 GMT -5
Y'all do realize Wink left the Ravens the same way pretty much, but since they had a lot of success, there wasn't as much fuss. But the guy left a winning team to come to a losing team...and he wasn't fired, so do the math. It seems the Martindate-Wilkins trio got bought and sold as a package. What organization is gonna want the 3 musketeers after the Baltimore and Giants experience? If Wink has plans to keep his crew intact he's gonna face an uphill battle because that's got more red flags than a Chinese Communist parade. But stranger things have happened. ....and if his ass can't coach without his guys he's the wrong guy to start with....... |
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Post by McCherry on Jan 18, 2024 20:32:29 GMT -5
I've never considered Paul Schwartz the "Giants guy" for stuff like this.So not sure if that's the case here. Always just thought of him as a below-average columnist and beat reporter. I will say I do believe the version of the Jets game story here rather than the quote being "You are gonna lose this one like you lost that one" because the latter seemed far too ridiculous. Not sure why, especially in recent years. It's been apparent to me that Paul is very close to the Mara's. I've never read anything by Paul ever in which he spoke out of turn or misled Giants fans. In terms of knowledge and perspective, I think Paul is one of the more credible reporters covering the team. I don't think he's a mouth piece for the Mara's. I don't think you were implying that, but he's a very fair, unbiased reporter overall. Much less controversial than Leonard in comparison. |
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