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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 31, 2024 12:31:17 GMT -5
LOL they are serious as a heart attack so it seems and so it should be they need a QB to move this program forward with. question is they need a ton more how do they get the guy they want with out giving a ton of future draft capital with 3 teams probably trying to do the same thing in the Raiders Vikings and Bronco's who are worse off than us right now they have Darnold and not much else.
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Post by TEM on Mar 31, 2024 12:39:49 GMT -5
No shit.. Bringing up a game where Michigan had their way with Washington on the ground is a morons chore. McCarthy who had the best seat in the house, watched his club dismantle and humiliate the best the Country had to offer. If you’re looking for an aerial attack you took a wrong turn way back. This is ground and pound territory where the quarterback benefited from the road graders. If he was just a bystander along for the ride teams would not be jumping through hoops and having him in for private workouts. The hype is real.. And we do need a running back. Singletary, Gray and Brightwell couldn’t scare a bunch of kids. Boom! Some remain so out of touch. “ He’ll throw more passes than he did in the championship game “ That statement all on it’s own speaks volumes for the cluelessness people have and has absolutely nothing to do with the talent JJ hast. Some people just don’t want JJ a Giant so they come up with all sorts of garbage to support their mindset. It’s a swing and a miss every time regardless of who the batter ( hater ) is. And what talent is that? It is blatantly obvious. Harbaugh had more faith in his running attack than he did in his passing attack. That is the 700 lb. Gorilla in the room hard main fact or however it is described. That is mostly ignored with him as a top prospect. The irony in this. Harbaugh is a QB by skill set. IMO he without a doubt knew exactly what he had in a QB. So, if he did not know what the QB can and cannot do. No one does.
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Post by jaymas on Mar 31, 2024 12:56:20 GMT -5
Boom! Some remain so out of touch. “ He’ll throw more passes than he did in the championship game “ That statement all on it’s own speaks volumes for the cluelessness people have and has absolutely nothing to do with the talent JJ hast. Some people just don’t want JJ a Giant so they come up with all sorts of garbage to support their mindset. It’s a swing and a miss every time regardless of who the batter ( hater ) is. And what talent is that? It is blatantly obvious. Harbaugh had more faith in his running attack than he did in his passing attack. That is the 700 lb. Gorilla in the room hard main fact or however it is described. That is mostly ignored with him as a top prospect. The irony in this. Harbaugh is a QB by skill set. IMO he without a doubt knew exactly what he had in a QB. So, if he did not know what the QB can and cannot do. No one does. Harbaugh has always loved the running game. He even selected Greg Roman again to be his OC. Part of his identity. Have you ever heard him talk about McCarthy? The praise is effusive.
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Post by TEM on Mar 31, 2024 12:59:38 GMT -5
And what talent is that? It is blatantly obvious. Harbaugh had more faith in his running attack than he did in his passing attack. That is the 700 lb. Gorilla in the room hard main fact or however it is described. That is mostly ignored with him as a top prospect. The irony in this. Harbaugh is a QB by skill set. IMO he without a doubt knew exactly what he had in a QB. So, if he did not know what the QB can and cannot do. No one does. Harbaugh has always loved the running game. He even selected Greg Roman again to be his OC. Part of his identity. Have you ever heard him talk about McCarthy? The praise is effusive. Yet, we have fans that want to draft a QB within the first 6 picks that is groomed for an antiquated system that existed 40 years ago in the NFL.
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Post by McCherry on Mar 31, 2024 13:02:26 GMT -5
LOL they are serious as a heart attack so it seems and so it should be they need a QB to move this program forward with. question is they need a ton more how do they get the guy they want with out giving a ton of future draft capital with 3 teams probably trying to do the same thing in the Raiders Vikings and Bronco's who are worse off than us right now they have Darnold and not much else. That's what they are weighing right now with this workout. They will give up a ton of capital, they just want to make sure he's worth it. If they get beaten out by another team, then it's on to the second tier. With the 6th and 47th picks, those QBs will go in between, so that's a problem too.
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Post by Kruunch on Mar 31, 2024 13:53:01 GMT -5
No shit.. Bringing up a game where Michigan had their way with Washington on the ground is a morons chore. McCarthy who had the best seat in the house, watched his club dismantle and humiliate the best the Country had to offer. If you’re looking for an aerial attack you took a wrong turn way back. This is ground and pound territory where the quarterback benefited from the road graders. If he was just a bystander along for the ride teams would not be jumping through hoops and having him in for private workouts. The hype is real.. And we do need a running back. Singletary, Gray and Brightwell couldn’t scare a bunch of kids. I apologize for not making my point clearer. Penn State game 8 passing attempts. Nebraska 16 passing attempts. Rutgers 21 passing attempts. Indiana 17 passing attempts. He averaged in 2023 9 yards per attempt, and he does not throw the ball that much. That screams dink dunker. Michigan ran 910 plays on Offense in 2023. 360 passing plays and 550 running plays . JJ accounted for 332 0of those passing plays. that is a 36% pass to 64% running . That screams Game manager not QB.
That won't cut it in the NFL. The average NFL team 60% to 40%. Pass to run ratio. Complete opposite to the Offense he can run. And it has yet to be established if he has the aptitude to run that type of offense. That screams do not draft me at the top of the draft.
You guys want that guy?????
If I am the GM before thinking about drafting JJ. I am on the phone with Harbaugh and Hortiz and asking what the price would be if we drafted JJ. What would they need in addition to move him for Justin Herbert. That will tell Schoen exactly what Jim thinks of McCarthy. I want a guy who can rise above the ashes.. and deliver at its biggest moments. McCarthys stats are not meant to stand out in a crowd. He played for a coach who beats teams to submission. From his days playing in the black and blue division of the late eighties to early nineties. He took an old strategy and implemented in today’s league. A quarterback by trade.. with a running backs mentality. Harbaugh will always use ground control over aerial attacks. Regardless of his height and stats.. Jonathan James McCarthy is getting all the attention of the league. That’s not done on accident, there is something in the kid from Illinois that is bringing clubs to their knees. The Giants who have seen enough pathetic play at quarterback to last a lifetime. Are doing their due diligence in wining and dining with the former college champ. Reality has a way of showing up and knocking some sense into anyone willing to stick their chin out. We need a quarterback more than any other position on the field.
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Post by jaymas on Mar 31, 2024 14:05:17 GMT -5
Harbaugh has always loved the running game. He even selected Greg Roman again to be his OC. Part of his identity. Have you ever heard him talk about McCarthy? The praise is effusive. Yet, we have fans that want to draft a QB within the first 6 picks that is groomed for an antiquated system that existed 40 years ago in the NFL. It's still a pro style offense. The passing concepts are too. Harbaugh just likes to run the ball. Just a volume thing, not a design thing.
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Post by jaymas on Mar 31, 2024 14:07:26 GMT -5
I'll also add McCarthy is excellent in third down and has very good pocket presence.
He's also super young. The ceiling is very high regardless of his passing volume in college.
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Post by TEM on Mar 31, 2024 14:12:27 GMT -5
Yet, we have fans that want to draft a QB within the first 6 picks that is groomed for an antiquated system that existed 40 years ago in the NFL. It's still a pro style offense. The passing concepts are too. Harbaugh just likes to run the ball. Just a volume thing, not a design thing. No I showed in a previous post Michigan ran a run first offense. The NFL is a passing league.
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Post by bluebuddha on Mar 31, 2024 14:23:01 GMT -5
Yet, we have fans that want to draft a QB within the first 6 picks that is groomed for an antiquated system that existed 40 years ago in the NFL. It's still a pro style offense. The passing concepts are too. Harbaugh just likes to run the ball. Just a volume thing, not a design thing. I don't think Harbaugh trusted him at all in situations where the game is on the line. JJ decision making still needs work. He hasn't thrown enough to feel what defenses are doing. He is a raw ball of clay with a good skill set. If the Giants draft him he will be watching for a bit and maybe won't even start until next year. Hopefully in a couple year he will be at a level that Daboll wants. Without a running game or a great oline the kid will need to make decision faster than he is used to at Michigan and he will need to carry a lot more of the offense than he was trusted with with Harbaugh.
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Post by TEM on Mar 31, 2024 14:24:36 GMT -5
I apologize for not making my point clearer. Penn State game 8 passing attempts. Nebraska 16 passing attempts. Rutgers 21 passing attempts. Indiana 17 passing attempts. He averaged in 2023 9 yards per attempt, and he does not throw the ball that much. That screams dink dunker. Michigan ran 910 plays on Offense in 2023. 360 passing plays and 550 running plays . JJ accounted for 332 0of those passing plays. that is a 36% pass to 64% running . That screams Game manager not QB.
That won't cut it in the NFL. The average NFL team 60% to 40%. Pass to run ratio. Complete opposite to the Offense he can run. And it has yet to be established if he has the aptitude to run that type of offense. That screams do not draft me at the top of the draft.
You guys want that guy?????
If I am the GM before thinking about drafting JJ. I am on the phone with Harbaugh and Hortiz and asking what the price would be if we drafted JJ. What would they need in addition to move him for Justin Herbert. That will tell Schoen exactly what Jim thinks of McCarthy. I want a guy who can rise above the ashes.. and deliver at its biggest moments. McCarthys stats are not meant to stand out in a crowd. He played for a coach who beats teams to submission. From his days playing in the black and blue division of the late eighties to early nineties. He took an old strategy and implemented in today’s league. A quarterback by trade.. with a running backs mentality. Harbaugh will always use ground control over aerial attacks. Regardless of his height and stats.. Jonathan James McCarthy is getting all the attention of the league. That’s not done on accident, there is something in the kid from Illinois that is bringing clubs to their knees. The Giants who have seen enough pathetic play at quarterback to last a lifetime. Are doing their due diligence in wining and dining with the former college champ. Reality has a way of showing up and knocking some sense into anyone willing to stick their chin out. We need a quarterback more than any other position on the field. I am an advocate for scrutiny first. What is bad or non-existent in the player's game. Is way more important than what he can do. IMO: There is too much "I don't know" in his game.
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Post by TEM on Mar 31, 2024 14:51:45 GMT -5
I apologize for not making my point clearer. Penn State game 8 passing attempts. Nebraska 16 passing attempts. Rutgers 21 passing attempts. Indiana 17 passing attempts. He averaged in 2023 9 yards per attempt, and he does not throw the ball that much. That screams dink dunker. Michigan ran 910 plays on Offense in 2023. 360 passing plays and 550 running plays . JJ accounted for 332 0of those passing plays. that is a 36% pass to 64% running . That screams Game manager not QB.
That won't cut it in the NFL. The average NFL team 60% to 40%. Pass to run ratio. Complete opposite to the Offense he can run. And it has yet to be established if he has the aptitude to run that type of offense. That screams do not draft me at the top of the draft.
You guys want that guy?????
If I am the GM before thinking about drafting JJ. I am on the phone with Harbaugh and Hortiz and asking what the price would be if we drafted JJ. What would they need in addition to move him for Justin Herbert. That will tell Schoen exactly what Jim thinks of McCarthy. I want a guy who can rise above the ashes.. and deliver at its biggest moments. McCarthys stats are not meant to stand out in a crowd. He played for a coach who beats teams to submission. From his days playing in the black and blue division of the late eighties to early nineties. He took an old strategy and implemented in today’s league. A quarterback by trade.. with a running backs mentality. Harbaugh will always use ground control over aerial attacks. Regardless of his height and stats.. Jonathan James McCarthy is getting all the attention of the league. That’s not done on accident, there is something in the kid from Illinois that is bringing clubs to their knees. The Giants who have seen enough pathetic play at quarterback to last a lifetime. Are doing their due diligence in wining and dining with the former college champ. Reality has a way of showing up and knocking some sense into anyone willing to stick their chin out. We need a quarterback more than any other position on the field. I am an advocate for scrutiny first. What is bad or non-existent in the player's game. Is way more important than what he can do. IMO: There is too much "I don't know" in his game.
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Post by lt56 on Mar 31, 2024 16:17:27 GMT -5
regular Pre-Draft Stuff
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 31, 2024 16:25:55 GMT -5
And what talent is that? It is blatantly obvious. Harbaugh had more faith in his running attack than he did in his passing attack. That is the 700 lb. Gorilla in the room hard main fact or however it is described. That is mostly ignored with him as a top prospect. The irony in this. Harbaugh is a QB by skill set. IMO he without a doubt knew exactly what he had in a QB. So, if he did not know what the QB can and cannot do. No one does. A top flight college QB throwing for less than 3000 yards is a big red flag to me.
Harbaugh also has a vested interest in teams believing in JJ and taking him before pick 5.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 31, 2024 16:27:34 GMT -5
Yet, we have fans that want to draft a QB within the first 6 picks that is groomed for an antiquated system that existed 40 years ago in the NFL. It's still a pro style offense. The passing concepts are too. Harbaugh just likes to run the ball. Just a volume thing, not a design thing. Pretty sure they have already proven that playing in a pro style offense in college means nothing when it comes to NFL success.
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Post by Fletch842 on Mar 31, 2024 16:31:25 GMT -5
He has a ton of potential, but really wasn't asked to do that much at Mich, so there are a lot of questions. His demeanor, toughness, athleticism are spot on though. It will be interesting to see which of these QBs excels if any of them. Personally, I like Daniels the best of the lot.
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Post by bluebuddha on Mar 31, 2024 17:21:46 GMT -5
He has a ton of potential, but really wasn't asked to do that much at Mich, so there are a lot of questions. His demeanor, toughness, athleticism are spot on though. It will be interesting to see which of these QBs excels if any of them. Personally, I like Daniels the best of the lot. I think for the state of the Giants I like Caleb, Daniels and Nix as they all are athletic enough to overcome oline inconsistencies and create offense with thier legs. Nix needs a QB friendly system as he basically was just throwing screens and dump offs in that offense. Daniels is similar to Jackson and once defense keep him in the pocket the sacks will start piling up but isn't as athletically gifted as Lamar. Caleb can adapt to defenses but will need coaching to help dial in his decision making and situational awareness. Maye is the darkhorse to me for the Giants. Physically and arm strength wise he is Daboll's prototype. Can he create with his legs to open up that part of the playbook? .... I don't know. At the end of the day they need someone reliable to throw to and make plays. Is that person on the roster? I think they go WR at the end of the day. They just missed out last year.
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Post by bluebuddha on Mar 31, 2024 18:13:59 GMT -5
Harbaugh has always loved the running game. He even selected Greg Roman again to be his OC. Part of his identity. Have you ever heard him talk about McCarthy? The praise is effusive. Yet, we have fans that want to draft a QB within the first 6 picks that is groomed for an antiquated system that existed 40 years ago in the NFL. Good point. Dabolls system the running game is an afterthought, a complimentary piece. Definitley not Harbaugh's version of offense. I do see the similarities between what Harbaugh sees in JJ's game and in why he was high on Kaepernick.
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Post by jaymas on Mar 31, 2024 18:50:20 GMT -5
It's still a pro style offense. The passing concepts are too. Harbaugh just likes to run the ball. Just a volume thing, not a design thing. No I showed in a previous post Michigan ran a run first offense. The NFL is a passing league. The scheme, the concepts etc. It's a pro style in its design. The run/pass selection ratio isn't, but the plays themselves are.
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Post by jaymas on Mar 31, 2024 18:51:38 GMT -5
It's still a pro style offense. The passing concepts are too. Harbaugh just likes to run the ball. Just a volume thing, not a design thing. Pretty sure they have already proven that playing in a pro style offense in college means nothing when it comes to NFL success. Not saying it doesn't or doesn't, just responding to the notion he didn't play in one or played in something that doesn't prepare him for the NFL because of the concepts, which simply isn't true.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 31, 2024 19:08:12 GMT -5
LOL they are serious as a heart attack so it seems and so it should be they need a QB to move this program forward with. question is they need a ton more how do they get the guy they want with out giving a ton of future draft capital with 3 teams probably trying to do the same thing in the Raiders Vikings and Bronco's who are worse off than us right now they have Darnold and not much else. That's what they are weighing right now with this workout. They will give up a ton of capital, they just want to make sure he's worth it. If they get beaten out by another team, then it's on to the second tier. With the 6th and 47th picks, those QBs will go in between, so that's a problem too. If they get beat out they should trade down and drat Penix or Nix and use what other assets they get fro a WR and a CB
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 31, 2024 19:28:02 GMT -5
Boom! Some remain so out of touch. “ He’ll throw more passes than he did in the championship game “ That statement all on it’s own speaks volumes for the cluelessness people have and has absolutely nothing to do with the talent JJ hast. Some people just don’t want JJ a Giant so they come up with all sorts of garbage to support their mindset. It’s a swing and a miss every time regardless of who the batter ( hater ) is. And what talent is that? It is blatantly obvious. Harbaugh had more faith in his running attack than he did in his passing attack. That is the 700 lb. Gorilla in the room hard main fact or however it is described. That is mostly ignored with him as a top prospect. The irony in this. Harbaugh is a QB by skill set. IMO he without a doubt knew exactly what he had in a QB. So, if he did not know what the QB can and cannot do. No one does. Drafting JJ is gonna be a ton of projection unless they plan go to Tennessee Titans type offense run heavy with a QB that can make some throws when needed. I think if the Giants have conviction that they think he can become solid duel threat QB that can make plays off schedule from different platforms they will find away to get to 4.
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giantsalmon
Starter
Came over from a defunct board. Formerly LakeO Giant fan
Posts: 3,901
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Post by giantsalmon on Mar 31, 2024 20:10:26 GMT -5
Im in on JJ. One stat that did scream out for me is he was MUCH better under duress than any of the other top prospects. A big attribute for this guy is hes a lightning rod. Hes a bundle of POSITIVE energy and will lift his teammates as a natural leader. His ceiling is untapped as a late comer to football--yet he won at every level. He's still very young. He may not be there for NYG, but I pray he doesnt go to Washington.
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Post by TEM on Apr 1, 2024 0:31:12 GMT -5
No I showed in a previous post Michigan ran a run first offense. The NFL is a passing league. The scheme, the concepts etc. It's a pro style in its design. The run/pass selection ratio isn't, but the plays themselves are. Run first was pro style in 1988. That is so easy to defend against in today's defensive formations.
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Post by TEM on Apr 1, 2024 0:33:56 GMT -5
And what talent is that? It is blatantly obvious. Harbaugh had more faith in his running attack than he did in his passing attack. That is the 700 lb. Gorilla in the room hard main fact or however it is described. That is mostly ignored with him as a top prospect. The irony in this. Harbaugh is a QB by skill set. IMO he without a doubt knew exactly what he had in a QB. So, if he did not know what the QB can and cannot do. No one does. Drafting JJ is gonna be a ton of projection unless they plan go to Tennessee Titans type offense run heavy with a QB that can make some throws when needed.I think if the Giants have conviction that they think he can become solid duel threat QB that can make plays off schedule from different platforms they will find away to get to 4. You do not draft that QB within the first 32 picks.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Apr 1, 2024 8:52:18 GMT -5
Drafting JJ is gonna be a ton of projection unless they plan go to Tennessee Titans type offense run heavy with a QB that can make some throws when needed.I think if the Giants have conviction that they think he can become solid duel threat QB that can make plays off schedule from different platforms they will find away to get to 4. You do not draft that QB within the first 32 picks. The second part is the part that matters if they draft him thats probably what they think that he can be like what Russel Wilson was Aguy who can create make plays off schedule and off different platforms. This'd is gonna be draft on projection if he is taken in the top 32 there is some evidence he can be that kind of player but not a steady diet of it.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Apr 1, 2024 9:00:13 GMT -5
No I showed in a previous post Michigan ran a run first offense. The NFL is a passing league. The scheme, the concepts etc. It's a pro style in its design. The run/pass selection ratio isn't, but the plays themselves are. To be honest the scheme is pretty much a throw back to what Harbaugh himself played in. It has some longevity to it being teams are playing lighter on defense but at some point your QB needs to be a modern QB and throw for 250 to 300 yards for an extended period of time and score with his arm. As I have said in a few posts if he is the guy it will be on projection more than most because of how they used him shit against Penn ST that let him throw 4 or 5 passes to start and took the ball right out of his hands and into Corums and ran them into the dirt.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Apr 1, 2024 9:02:31 GMT -5
Im in on JJ. One stat that did scream out for me is he was MUCH better under duress than any of the other top prospects. A big attribute for this guy is hes a lightning rod. Hes a bundle of POSITIVE energy and will lift his teammates as a natural leader. His ceiling is untapped as a late comer to football--yet he won at every level. He's still very young. He may not be there for NYG, but I pray he doesnt go to Washington. I think he has a ton of potential thats what Dabol and Schoen get paid for is see his mental and physical trades and determine wether it translates to the NFL.
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Post by TEM on Apr 1, 2024 9:36:02 GMT -5
You do not draft that QB within the first 32 picks. The second part is the part that matters if they draft him thats probably what they think that he can be like what Russel Wilson was Aguy who can create make plays off schedule and off different platforms. This'd is gonna be draft on projection if he is taken in the top 32 there is some evidence he can be that kind of player but not a steady diet of it. Willison had 3 3000-yard seasons Willison's last year in the NCAA ( third round pick......PICK 75) Year................School,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Conf ......Class .....Pos.... G..... Cmp.... Att... Pct... Yds....Y/A.... AY/A.... TD.. Int... Rate 2011,,,,,,,,,,,Wisconsin..........BigTen,,,,,,,,SR,,,,,,,,,QB....14.......225.....309..72.8 ..3175....10.3..11.8,,,,,,33.....4.....191.8 Now let's see McCarthy in 2023 2023......... Michigan...........Big Ten..........SR.........QB....15......240......332..72.3..2991....9.0....9.8......22......4.......167.4 The 3rd round pick was better. ( Let that sink in) Every time a member on the board compares McCarthy to so and so . It further emboldens my resolve on why you do not pick him at the top of the draft.
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Post by Fletch842 on Apr 1, 2024 9:54:02 GMT -5
Im in on JJ. One stat that did scream out for me is he was MUCH better under duress than any of the other top prospects. A big attribute for this guy is hes a lightning rod. Hes a bundle of POSITIVE energy and will lift his teammates as a natural leader. His ceiling is untapped as a late comer to football--yet he won at every level. He's still very young. He may not be there for NYG, but I pray he doesnt go to Washington. I think he has a ton of potential thats what Dabol and Schoen get paid for is see his mental and physical trades and determine wether it translates to the NFL. problem is, that it is all potential, he was handcuffed by the system they ran, so we simply do not know. Lots of risk picking him up high in the draft (I think he will go top 6, but that doesn't mean I'd make the call, myself...)
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