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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 31, 2019 9:48:42 GMT -5
This is a cross post I made in my FB group basicly outlining why he really makes sense at 17 . Despite the cries from the usual faction that "weapons are a luxury","ONLY DEFENSE AND O LINE THE ENTIRE DRAFT!" "OLD SCHOOL ..bla bla bla " a guy like this actually improves the O line,looks like a clone of Bavaro(there is your old school but being used in modern contemporary NFL offenses )and would help keep the defense off the field.all while adding a weapon that would make the offense both explosive and impossible to defend
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Post by snyder55 on Mar 31, 2019 9:56:19 GMT -5
I love Hockenson, he is the prototypical TE that only comes along every few years, he's an excellent pass catcher and superior blocker who could also be a big help to our new RT .
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 31, 2019 10:01:52 GMT -5
I love Hockenson, he is the prototypical TE that only comes along every few years, he's an excellent pass catcher and superior blocker who could also be a big help to our new RT . Not to mention helping the new QB with pre snap reads...in a 12 Defense sends out big personal...split one or both out,play action/RPO and an easy pitch/catch for a chunk play Defense sends out small personnel....rev up the power running game out of no huddle
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Post by snyder55 on Mar 31, 2019 10:03:48 GMT -5
I love Hockenson, he is the prototypical TE that only comes along every few years, he's an excellent pass catcher and superior blocker who could also be a big help to our new RT . Not to mention helping the new QB with pre snap reads...in a 12 Defense sends out big personal...split one or both out,play action/RPO and an easy pitch/catch for a chunk play Defense sends out small personnel....rev up the power running game out of no huddle I haven't seen where Hockenson is slated to go in the draft, have you?
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 31, 2019 10:10:25 GMT -5
Not to mention helping the new QB with pre snap reads...in a 12 Defense sends out big personal...split one or both out,play action/RPO and an easy pitch/catch for a chunk play Defense sends out small personnel....rev up the power running game out of no huddle I haven't seen where Hockenson is slated to go in the draft, have you? Mid 1st round... As high as Green Bay As low as the Raiders pick they got from the Bears Noah Fant is also a 1st rounder but he is more like Engram (we have one of those,) I can see New England trading up for him
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Post by snyder55 on Mar 31, 2019 10:14:02 GMT -5
I haven't seen where Hockenson is slated to go in the draft, have you? Mid 1st round... As high as Green Bay As low as the Raiders pick they got from the Bears Noah Fant is also a 1st rounder but he is more like Engram (we have one of those,) I can see New England trading up for him unfortunately I can see New England going after him in a big way, especially since they just lost Gronk..
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Post by Kase1 on Mar 31, 2019 10:31:06 GMT -5
I was TOTALLY against drafting a TE in the 1st, until recently.
With Engram and Hock we could have own version of Gronk and Hernandez, and kill it on the field. No way anyone could keep all that talent in the closet, it would be so successful, couldnt keep it on the down low.
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southerner
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Post by southerner on Mar 31, 2019 10:42:16 GMT -5
Giants will probably get a TE, but not until the 5th round or so. To draft another TE in the first with a porous defensive makes little sense, considering all the defensive talent in the 1st round. Fact is, Hock will be gone by the 17th pick anyway.
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Post by TEM on Mar 31, 2019 10:48:54 GMT -5
I doubt we draft 2 TEs in the first round in 3 drafts.
The Giants only drafted 4 Offensive Ends in the first round in their entire history . Between 1 and 2 (41 years) , between 2 and 3 ( 10 years) between 3 and 4 ( 15 years).
PS: That Blah Blah old school mentally kept the trophy case from doubling as the broom closet.
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 31, 2019 10:57:37 GMT -5
I was TOTALLY against drafting a TE in the 1st, until recently. With Engram and Hock we could have own version of Gronk and Hernandez, and kill it on the field. No way anyone could keep all that talent in the closet, it would be so successful, couldnt keep it on the down low. I think I have stressed more than enough how much the 12 formation is the one formation that a defense can't beat if the offense has the right personnel (this goes back to the 86 team when the Giants around Thanksgiving decide to jumpstart the passing game by featuring Mowatt and Bavaro because the recievers were really meh on their own and also because they thought they would be getting the Bears in the playoffs and their 46 would be defeated badly by 2 athletic TEs that were also really good run blockers ... We saw how that offense became explosive in the cold weather months ironically,and we were literally 15 years ahead of our time with moving Mowatt ane Bavaro into the slot in the passing game ) New England's best and most consistent offenses have always featured a strong 12,the 2001-2004 run was based on a 12 (forget the TEs),while not to the level of Gronk/Hernandez or even Mowatt/Bavaro,that New England team was also more ball control and spread it around more and again only used slot type receivers.. And people forget quickly,the Eagles 2017 year,they were a huge 12 formation team with Ertz and Selick,depending on the defense they either threw or went fast/no huddle smash mouth with Ajay/Blount(remember the game 3 against us,they were meh until they went uptempo power from their own 10 and scored in 7 plays without throwing the ball once and in like 1:50? The TEs were that much a threat. Hmmmmm.....the Eagles still use a lot of the concepts they did when Shurmer was OC..... New England has used a lot of the air raid stuff literally since Brady took over out of the 12 and they prefer slot guys This is how you transform the offense in one huge quick step to what seems to he in my mind the most proven way to have a very versatile,balanced,explosive modern offense ever since we did it in 1986,adding in the modern wrinkles and stuff that teams are doing today What's strange is the blue print has been out there since then and how few teams have thought about this. I don't get it Let's see a dominant 12 1.Helps control the line of scrimmage with in effect 2 extra OTs(and again,Engram had zero blown blocks last year so he is indeed executing his assignments here and only going to get better) 2.Can morph into an 11 or even 10 depending on what kind of personal the defense deploys,and a 10 against a base defense with 2 mismatch Nightmares.....becomes an actual real life Nightmare
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 31, 2019 11:31:45 GMT -5
I doubt we draft 2 TEs in the first round in 3 drafts. The Giants only drafted 4 Offensive Ends in the first round in their entire history . Between 1 and 2 (41 years) , between 2 and 3 ( 10 years) between 3 and 4 ( 15 years). PS: That Blah Blah old school mentally kept the trophy case from doubling as the broom closet. New regime,new offense,BPA that instantly transforms offense from middling to dominant in one swoop. That "cant take 2 TEs in the first " in 3 years goes out the window when you have the potential for a side of the ball changing Player that addresses the line and is an explosive weapon,and is an exact fit for what Shurmer wants to run Your 2nd part 1986-we were actually innovative with the 12 and ahead of the times..yes the lines were built but the offense was going to be our demise until we decided to go 12 ....definitely not traditional,and it turned the team into an overwhelming juggernaut on both sides of the ball because it took opposing teams out of their game plans and made them one dimensional,and back then it was still a somewhat run first league so it was often game over for the other team once we were up by 2 scores,and with that team it was often by halftime 1990- this seems to be the team the old school teams want to go back to,some reminders 1.That team set records for fewest turnovers and fewest penalties called against (we still hold that record and the way officiating is we probably will never give that up),meaning this team was executing on a level we might never see again ..because 2.it was still a run first league and the team had no choice but to play to win 10-6 games because we didnt have the explosive 12 we had in 1986,the recievers were below average,and we played basicly a prevent /run the clock while grinding out 4 yards a carry(remember all our games when we won were over in less than 2 and a half hours and we could catch the end of other games every week?) The team couldn't come back from a 14 point deficit at any time,it was either keep it within an score or be ahead. There is no way this can work this day an age,the salary cap prevents teams like that from hoarding good O linemen and front 7 players like we did,with injuries, we would be screwed,teams can put up 17 in a 15 minute period all over the league,if we built our team that way and we got down like that quickly just turn the game off because it's over And when you build a team like that in this day and age,you are leaving the game in the hands of the refs to decide on a weekly basis. You want to beat incompetent one wide officiating?Score early and often and dominate. And one more thing,3 feet left and there is no talk of this "mythical old school Giants football ",that is how dangerous even back then that was to play like that 2007- we had an elite reciever that pulled a safety out of the box opening up the running game We dont have even an above average threat.Your line can be incredible but if you dont have any threat like that it's going to be an afternoon of running into a brick wall and futility 2011-we were a 5-11 team that won on the backs of Eli,Cruz,Nick's and Manningham Of course this is not the desired way to win but explosive firepower won that year for us What I'm saying is yes we need lines of course,and we have 12 picks But this loud crying that we can't use one of our early picks to add something of firepower to replace what was traded away is foolish and negligent.
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Post by TEM on Mar 31, 2019 11:43:37 GMT -5
I doubt we draft 2 TEs in the first round in 3 drafts. The Giants only drafted 4 Offensive Ends in the first round in their entire history . Between 1 and 2 (41 years) , between 2 and 3 ( 10 years) between 3 and 4 ( 15 years). PS: That Blah Blah old school mentally kept the trophy case from doubling as the broom closet. New regime,new offense,BPA that instantly transforms offense from middling to dominant in one swoop. That "cant take 2 TEs in the first " in 3 years goes out the window when you have the potential for a side of the ball changing Player that addresses the line and is an explosive weapon,and is an exact fit for what Shurmer wants to run Your 2nd part 1986-we were actually innovative with the 12 and ahead of the times..yes the lines were built but the offense was going to be our demise until we decided to go 12 ....definitely not traditional,and it turned the team into an overwhelming juggernaut on both sides of the ball because it took opposing teams out of their game plans and made them one dimensional,and back then it was still a somewhat run first league so it was often game over for the other team once we were up by 2 scores,and with that team it was often by halftime 1990- this seems to be the team the old school teams want to go back to,some reminders 1.That team set records for fewest turnovers and fewest penalties called against (we still hold that record and the way officiating is we probably will never give that up),meaning this team was executing on a level we might never see again ..because 2.it was still a run first league and the team had no choice but to play to win 10-6 games because we didnt have the explosive 12 we had in 1986,the recievers were below average,and we played basicly a prevent /run the clock while grinding out 4 yards a carry(remember all our games when we won were over in less than 2 and a half hours and we could catch the end of other games every week?) The team couldn't come back from a 14 point deficit at any time,it was either keep it within an score or be ahead. There is no way this can work this day an age,the salary cap prevents teams like that from hoarding good O linemen and front 7 players like we did,with injuries, we would be screwed,teams can put up 17 in a 15 minute period all over the league,if we built our team that way and we got down like that quickly just turn the game off because it's over And when you build a team like that in this day and age,you are leaving the game in the hands of the refs to decide on a weekly basis. You want to beat incompetent one wide officiating?Score early and often and dominate. And one more thing,3 feet left and there is no talk of this "mythical old school Giants football ",that is how dangerous even back then that was to play like that 2007- we had an elite reciever that pulled a safety out of the box opening up the running game We dont have even an above average threat.Your line can be incredible but if you dont have any threat like that it's going to be an afternoon of running into a brick wall and futility 2011-we were a 5-11 team that won on the backs of Eli,Cruz,Nick's and Manningham Of course this is not the desired way to win but explosive firepower won that year for us What I'm saying is yes we need lines of course,and we have 12 picks But this loud crying that we can't use one of our early picks to add something of firepower to replace what was traded away is foolish and negligent. Ok I gather if the Giants FO does not use our early picks to add something of firepower to replace what was traded away is foolish and negligent. It will bother you. Because that is in essence what you are saying. Will you hop on the fire Dave bandwagon if he does not comply ?
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 31, 2019 12:01:43 GMT -5
New regime,new offense,BPA that instantly transforms offense from middling to dominant in one swoop. That "cant take 2 TEs in the first " in 3 years goes out the window when you have the potential for a side of the ball changing Player that addresses the line and is an explosive weapon,and is an exact fit for what Shurmer wants to run Your 2nd part 1986-we were actually innovative with the 12 and ahead of the times..yes the lines were built but the offense was going to be our demise until we decided to go 12 ....definitely not traditional,and it turned the team into an overwhelming juggernaut on both sides of the ball because it took opposing teams out of their game plans and made them one dimensional,and back then it was still a somewhat run first league so it was often game over for the other team once we were up by 2 scores,and with that team it was often by halftime 1990- this seems to be the team the old school teams want to go back to,some reminders 1.That team set records for fewest turnovers and fewest penalties called against (we still hold that record and the way officiating is we probably will never give that up),meaning this team was executing on a level we might never see again ..because 2.it was still a run first league and the team had no choice but to play to win 10-6 games because we didnt have the explosive 12 we had in 1986,the recievers were below average,and we played basicly a prevent /run the clock while grinding out 4 yards a carry(remember all our games when we won were over in less than 2 and a half hours and we could catch the end of other games every week?) The team couldn't come back from a 14 point deficit at any time,it was either keep it within an score or be ahead. There is no way this can work this day an age,the salary cap prevents teams like that from hoarding good O linemen and front 7 players like we did,with injuries, we would be screwed,teams can put up 17 in a 15 minute period all over the league,if we built our team that way and we got down like that quickly just turn the game off because it's over And when you build a team like that in this day and age,you are leaving the game in the hands of the refs to decide on a weekly basis. You want to beat incompetent one wide officiating?Score early and often and dominate. And one more thing,3 feet left and there is no talk of this "mythical old school Giants football ",that is how dangerous even back then that was to play like that 2007- we had an elite reciever that pulled a safety out of the box opening up the running game We dont have even an above average threat.Your line can be incredible but if you dont have any threat like that it's going to be an afternoon of running into a brick wall and futility 2011-we were a 5-11 team that won on the backs of Eli,Cruz,Nick's and Manningham Of course this is not the desired way to win but explosive firepower won that year for us What I'm saying is yes we need lines of course,and we have 12 picks But this loud crying that we can't use one of our early picks to add something of firepower to replace what was traded away is foolish and negligent. Ok I gather if the Giants FO does not use our early picks to add something of firepower to replace what was traded away is foolish and negligent. It will bother you. Because that is in essence what you are saying. Will you hop on the fire Dave bandwagon if he does not comply ? Let's just say the team is on very thin ice with me after the trade on what they do afterwards to keep me invested If they don't get someone to keep defenses from laughing at our "Hope's and prayers " playmakers and can concentrate on keeping Barkley from beating them we are not going to be able to compete nor be entertaining (why bother watch when it's over being down 2 scores in the 3rd ? ) I'll find something else to do this year during the regular season and maybe tune in come playoff time(I'm going to be in Miami come super bowl time so maybe I'll have a team to root for like the Browns or Rams or Chiefs that are entertaining)and write off the Giamts this year as " whatever" and maybe start caring again next year Ane before anyone calls.me a.front runner,I've been a fan since 1974 and lived through those years,and tbe Dave Brown years Sucking is one thing,sucking and being irrelevant like we were in the 90s is the most demoralizing thing on the planet (think back to thatbtime,we sucked,were irrelevant because we were boring as ****,remember going into a sports jersey store and seeingb6born7bracks of Cowboy jerseys IN OUR NY METRO AREA ,and maybe 4 Hampton XXL jerseys if that?This is what happens when you become irrelevant like this and after this trade we run the risk of this happening) This thread is about Hockensen btw and how the pick can transform this offense into a juggernaut
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Post by Jomo on Mar 31, 2019 12:06:25 GMT -5
The most recent tight end who would "transform this offense into a juggernaut and be deployed in new and innovative ways" is still on the roster.....and we are still waiting for the juggernaut and innovation.
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Post by TEM on Mar 31, 2019 12:06:30 GMT -5
Ok I gather if the Giants FO does not use our early picks to add something of firepower to replace what was traded away is foolish and negligent. It will bother you. Because that is in essence what you are saying. Will you hop on the fire Dave bandwagon if he does not comply ? Let's just say the team is on very thin ice with me after the trade on what they do afterwards to keep me invested If they don't get someone to keep defenses from laughing at our "Hope's and prayers " playmakers and can concentrate on keeping Barkley from beating them we are not going to be able to compete nor be entertaining (why bother watch when it's over being down 2 scores in the 3rd ? ) I'll find something else to do this year during the regular season and maybe tune in come playoff time(I'm going to be in Miami come super bowl time so maybe I'll have a team to root for like the Browns or Rams or Chiefs that are entertaining)and write off the Giamts this year as " whatever" and maybe start caring again next year Ane before anyone calls.me a.front runner,I've been a fan since 1974 and lived through those years,and tbe Dave Brown years Sucking is one thing,sucking and being irrelevant like we were in the 90s is the most demoralizing thing on the planet (think back to thatbtime,we sucked,were irrelevant because we were boring as ****,remember going into a sports jersey store and seeingb6born7bracks of Cowboy jerseys IN OUR NY METRO AREA ,and maybe 4 Hampton XXL jerseys if that?This is what happens when you become irrelevant like this and after this trade we run the risk of this happening) This thread is about Hockensen btw and how the pick can transform this offense into a juggernaut I am not that wrapped up in it . I have zero control over who the FO picks, trades, cuts sings,or allows to walk. . All I know whoever they pick or sign,I will support the player as long as he is in a Giants uniform
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 31, 2019 12:42:06 GMT -5
The most recent tight end who would "transform this offense into a juggernaut and be deployed in new and innovative ways" is still on the roster.....and we are still waiting for the juggernaut and innovation. We saw a bit of it the last 4 games,(he was actually used with the gimmick stuff Shurmer uses )so now minus a playmaker outside he almost has to be a focal point of the offense (let's not confuse the 2017 season as an indictment on Engram either) If the 12 is going to be our dominant personal package then its going to be a given Engram will be featured. Its still nowhere near enough though,so getting Hockensen and also featuring him as much now puts the defense in a bad spot trying to account for these 2 guys that will mess up whatever personal they put on the field to defend us,which really in a way does what Beckham used to do,force defenses to have to make a pick your poison decision,but now with a much better o line and your 2 playmakers being blockers as well(Hockensen being good OT caliber here )
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Post by piddy283 on Mar 31, 2019 13:51:29 GMT -5
Hockenson has quickly climbed my big board. I don't think he'll be there when we pick at #17, but if so he'd be a great pick.
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Post by Jomo on Mar 31, 2019 14:08:55 GMT -5
Hockenson has quickly climbed my big board. I don't think he'll be there when we pick at #17, but if so he'd be a great pick. If he is there at 17 we should trade the pick to the Pats.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 31, 2019 14:38:13 GMT -5
This is a cross post I made in my FB group basicly outlining why he really makes sense at 17 . Despite the cries from the usual faction that "weapons are a luxury","ONLY DEFENSE AND O LINE THE ENTIRE DRAFT!" "OLD SCHOOL ..bla bla bla " a guy like this actually improves the O line,looks like a clone of Bavaro(there is your old school but being used in modern contemporary NFL offenses )and would help keep the defense off the field.all while adding a weapon that would make the offense both explosive and impossible to defend This can be a Gronk/ Hernandez type of problem for defenses Hockinson would be able to stay on the field and help with blocking this would open that offense up in so many ways.
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Post by Kase1 on Mar 31, 2019 15:49:19 GMT -5
I dont want to pick him at 6, but if hes still there at 17 id take a shot. Honestly i dont think he will be there at 17 though
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 31, 2019 16:37:37 GMT -5
I dont want to pick him at 6, but if hes still there at 17 id take a shot. Honestly i dont think he will be there at 17 though 6 is WAAAAAAAY too rich for any playmaker(which is why I'm horrified with the alarming amount of mocks that have us taking Metcalf at 6,as just the association of this team and him horrify me enough as it reminds me there is now a chance,however slight it may he,that this happens now post trade) 17 is perfect I won't lose sleep if he doesn't make it to us,just means we have to get our replacement playmaker elsewhere in the draft (37 if no Rosen,our 3rd (maybe move up for Issabella or someone)and someone else of value falls to us(my front 7 doubleheader for instant new improved defense is my 2nd choice for 17,play off our 6 pick and get the other level of the front 7 to compliment the number 6 pick)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 8:51:08 GMT -5
Meh I'm sure they have him on the big board after contemplating value of a tight end with a Shurmur offense.... and he could be the 2nd round pick if still available, but this is a deep TE class, and we can get good 2nd TE value in the later rounds. I'd not be too happy with this pick in the first, where he will probably go....as I see far more value with where this draft is deep at, get the QB, protect the QB. Not disagreeing he's a great prospect...just not feeling it as a 1st round pick this year
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Post by TAILGATIN on Apr 2, 2019 10:37:35 GMT -5
I dont want to pick him at 6, but if hes still there at 17 id take a shot. Honestly i dont think he will be there at 17 though ^ this. 6 is too early and 17 prob too late
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Post by Blue Hulk on Apr 7, 2019 7:04:55 GMT -5
Only if Engram gets moved to WR
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 7, 2019 13:40:56 GMT -5
Only if Engram gets moved to WR Engram is not a WR and it devalues everything about him. He had zero blown blocks in his assignments(and this includes in line where he was responsible for sealing tbe edge for cutback plays and probing ahead of tbe LOS for linebackers and safeties in the running game,and he loses his mismatch as a TE moving outside because now he gets a starting corner as opposed to an unathletic linebacker or a box safety... And yes,if we are indeed going 80% 12 formation and he is there at 17 it is a side of ball changing move,"traditional value " be damned because he builds the trenches with his O lineman type blocking skills and is another athletic mismatch in the passing game that helps open up the running game and also stops defenses from sitting in a zone on our slot starters.... Its the New England formula for personal that people conveniently forget when they say we dont need playmakers becsuse New England doesn't ever win with playmakers (one of the many false equivalencies used )
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Post by keyofgmen on Apr 17, 2019 14:38:42 GMT -5
Prediction:
Broncos swap with Jets and get their QB and Jets pick Hockenson at 10 and extra pick(s).
Then Washington trades up to 5 to get their QB...
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Post by snyder55 on Apr 17, 2019 15:30:13 GMT -5
I haven't seen where Hockenson is slated to go in the draft, have you? Mid 1st round... As high as Green Bay As low as the Raiders pick they got from the Bears Noah Fant is also a 1st rounder but he is more like Engram (we have one of those,) I can see New England trading up for him so its possible he could be there at #17 for the Giants pick...
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 17, 2019 15:46:42 GMT -5
Mid 1st round... As high as Green Bay As low as the Raiders pick they got from the Bears Noah Fant is also a 1st rounder but he is more like Engram (we have one of those,) I can see New England trading up for him so its possible he could be there at #17 for the Giants pick... Honestly,not looking that way now.(I have seen a mock with the Bucs taking him at 5...yeah on paper that's insane but they now can trot out a 12 with Hock and Howard with Adams..and Arians runs the New England/Perkins/Erheardt system) 2 really good 2 way TEs...they now have exactly what we had with Mowatt and Bavaro... But if we really want him I'd be trying to trade back to 11 and *hope * he is there (I'm also seeing mocks with us taking him at 6.....and the only way even as a fan of his that I can justify this is if the big 3 and Oliver are gone when we pick )
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Post by piddy283 on Apr 17, 2019 20:02:26 GMT -5
Prediction: Broncos swap with Jets and get their QB and Jets pick Hockenson at 10 and extra pick(s). Then Washington trades up to 5 to get their QB... If this were to happen, I'd be ecstatic. Realistically, we'd have the option to pick between Q. Williams, J. Allen, or D. White in this scenario. This isn't to say I'd be mad about drafting Haskins at #6, but I'd be thrilled to see teams trade ahead of us to get their QB.
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Post by piddy283 on Apr 17, 2019 20:07:36 GMT -5
so its possible he could be there at #17 for the Giants pick... Honestly,not looking that way now.(I have seen a mock with the Bucs taking him at 5...yeah on paper that's insane but they now can trot out a 12 with Hock and Howard with Adams..and Arians runs the New England/Perkins/Erheardt system) 2 really good 2 way TEs...they now have exactly what we had with Mowatt and Bavaro... But if we really want him I'd be trying to trade back to 11 and *hope * he is there (I'm also seeing mocks with us taking him at 6.....and the only way even as a fan of his that I can justify this is if the big 3 and Oliver are gone when we pick ) Hockenson is a top 5-10 talent in this draft. The kid is the prototypical TE. He runs exceptional routes, he's a big body with great hands, and he's a bully in the run game. Some say he's like adding another OT to the LOS. Picking Hockenson at #6, while not my #1 choice, wouldn't make me upset one bit. The kid would immediately open up our entire offense, and we'd still have plenty of picks to address the other areas of need.
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