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Post by Sarcasman on Dec 19, 2019 10:55:14 GMT -5
Flowers was ours!?!? Like the Giants somehow let some gem slip their fingers? lol, that is rich. He’s not a gem, but he’s a young guard playing better then the guard DG spent # 34 on. DG said he’d fix the Oline. He botched flowers. He let Pugh and richburg walk. He could have moved # 2 for a ton of capital and still gotten Nelson or mcglinchey. His results are his results. The team stinks. The area he claimed to be a genius at stinks. Dave Gettleman “Big guys allow you to compete, I know Hog mollies. They’ve gotta have some mean in ‘em, they’ve gotta be able to turn their hips. I know what it looks like.” That is rich....... Yes, he let Pugh and Richburg and Flowers walk, so now you’re defending Gettleman? OK.
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jay051
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Post by jay051 on Dec 19, 2019 10:57:57 GMT -5
How long was Flowers in NY under Gettleman's watch?? I would get your point if DG drafted him. Using Flowers as a reason to axe Gettleman is just off base imo. He was here when DG took over and they decided to move him to RT.... Poor judgment What?? What position did Flowers play in college?? Hindsight is real thing nowadays.
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Post by McCherry on Dec 19, 2019 10:58:40 GMT -5
I didn’t hear Callahan mention anything about resigning him... I picked up on that as well, great guy, someone will sign him next year (not us though) kinda thing. Mostly just coach speak to me. Great guy... Does anyone remember when Flowers had a mental breakdown and went on a verbal tirade against Giants fans and our whole organization after the game earlier this year? It just reinforces the other stuff that comes along with him. Most teams wouldn’t touch him.
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Post by Dogecoin on Dec 19, 2019 10:59:50 GMT -5
He took way tooooo much criticism when he was here. I always said that. Now that people see solder in action (more like "not in action") hope they realize that. What the ****! How drunk are you guys? Unfortunately the blame flowers hysteria got us an even less capable and for more expensive player in solder
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Post by giantsback2020 on Dec 19, 2019 11:02:48 GMT -5
He was here when DG took over and they decided to move him to RT.... Poor judgment What?? What position did Flowers play in college?? Hindsight is real thing nowadays. Hindsight is not needed to grade Gettleman. Sight is his job. I spy 3-11. I’m just pointing out his blunders along the way. No GM has the benefit of hindsight. Their job is evaluation and foresight. Gettleman has failed and failed again. He built the Oline, stacking bad decisions, and it stinks. That’s reality.
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Post by Sarcasman on Dec 19, 2019 11:05:54 GMT -5
What the ****! How drunk are you guys? Unfortunately the blame flowers hysteria got us an even less capable and for more expensive player in solder Sure. Message board hysteria drives FO decision making. And Flowers is a better player than Solder. Makes sense.
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DJones19
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Post by DJones19 on Dec 19, 2019 11:19:05 GMT -5
I picked up on that as well, great guy, someone will sign him next year (not us though) kinda thing. Mostly just coach speak to me. Great guy... Does anyone remember when Flowers had a mental breakdown and went on a verbal tirade against Giants fans and our whole organization after the game earlier this year? It just reinforces the other stuff that comes along with him. Most teams wouldn’t touch him. How do you know most teams wouldn't touch him? Coughlin and the Jags picked him up last year and he didn't have trouble signing with the Skins. He's now a solid NFL starter at a position a lot of us here thought he should be at. A couple weeks back Guice gave Flowers a ball after a TD run for a Gronk spike. This is on the organization. We drafted him too early, played him at the wrong position, and labeled him "trash" instead of working to make him productive, wasted a draft pick, and then replaced him with someone who isn't playing as well. The amusing part is...Giants fans still see it as a big win for us.
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Post by OrangeGiant on Dec 19, 2019 11:20:47 GMT -5
His biggest problem was moving his feet, and he was always a decent run blocker. So...the logical conclusion was to move him to Guard, where his poor feet were not as much of an issue inside. Many of us were saying to try him there, which some scoffed at. To me this is another indictment on the coaching staff. Why after picking him where you did, would you not exhaust every option? Funny how it all seems so simple, in retrospect. Can I assume that Tackles generally need to move side to side well, and Guards need more forward push? Tackles just have to have good feet, especially to be able to combat speed rushers on the outside, and they are covering more ground. How many times did we see Flowers get beat to the outside because he just wasnt quick enough. Guards just don't have as much ground to cover, unless they are pulling, their pressure is going to be inside where strength is more important.
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Post by Kruunch on Dec 19, 2019 12:02:53 GMT -5
Flowers failed with Pat Flaherty and Mike Solari. Who are both well respected offensive line coaches in this league. As for Flowers, let some dumb team pay him a contract, I hope it’s the Redskins and they give him a 6 year deal with a blank check. Great point Kruunch Flaherty probably lost his Job over this Flowers mess. This kid was supposed to be a foundational top 10 pick not an average Guard. It is easy for Callahan to like him and kind of rub it in the Giants face. They don't have much invested in him he has an Omameh type deal not a starters money. And reading the article Callahan is raving about him. I wanted to say, calm down, he’s still shit Bill.
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Post by titowooten on Dec 19, 2019 12:23:02 GMT -5
I didn’t hear Callahan mention anything about resigning him... I picked up on that as well, great guy, someone will sign him next year (not us though) kinda thing. Mostly just coach speak to me. don't they mention that in the article? callahan is not going to be there next season so he really has no say in whether or not flowers stays or goes. honestly i'm happy for him that he is doing better but it was never going to work with him in NY even if we moved him to guard. he just was clearly not happy here and it wasn't a good fit. he even shoved the ESPN beat reporter Ranaan once during an interview. definitely needed a change of scenery to try to get his career back on track.
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Post by Dogecoin on Dec 19, 2019 13:30:02 GMT -5
Unfortunately the blame flowers hysteria got us an even less capable and for more expensive player in solder Sure. Message board hysteria drives FO decision making. And Flowers is a better player than Solder. Makes sense. Yes I think fan outcries can influence team decisions. We saw this when macadoo got fired for sitting Eli. In any case with regard to flowers we ended up with an even worse yet higher priced player. How that's a good outcome is beyond me.
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Post by Sarcasman on Dec 19, 2019 13:55:34 GMT -5
Sure. Message board hysteria drives FO decision making. And Flowers is a better player than Solder. Makes sense. Yes I think fan outcries can influence team decisions. We saw this when macadoo got fired for sitting Eli. In any case with regard to flowers we ended up with an even worse yet higher priced player. How that's a good outcome is beyond me. I disagree; I think that's complete nonsense. Mcadoo got fired for his incompetence. The outcry from pretty much everyone - you and I both know it was not only Giants fans - was just people reacting to an idiotic move by an overmatched HC.
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DJones19
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Post by DJones19 on Dec 19, 2019 13:58:10 GMT -5
I picked up on that as well, great guy, someone will sign him next year (not us though) kinda thing. Mostly just coach speak to me. he even shoved the ESPN beat reporter Ranaan once during an interview. That makes me like him more.
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Post by Sarcasman on Dec 19, 2019 14:01:48 GMT -5
Great guy... Does anyone remember when Flowers had a mental breakdown and went on a verbal tirade against Giants fans and our whole organization after the game earlier this year? It just reinforces the other stuff that comes along with him. Most teams wouldn’t touch him. How do you know most teams wouldn't touch him? Coughlin and the Jags picked him up last year and he didn't have trouble signing with the Skins. He's now a solid NFL starter at a position a lot of us here thought he should be at. A couple weeks back Guice gave Flowers a ball after a TD run for a Gronk spike. This is on the organization. We drafted him too early, played him at the wrong position, and labeled him "trash" instead of working to make him productive, wasted a draft pick, and then replaced him with someone who isn't playing as well. The amusing part is...Giants fans still see it as a big win for us. I generally agree with this last paragraph, with the obvious exception of it not being a big win. You can't call it a win when a FO whiffs on the #11 pick but let's not take complete leave of our senses here. The player bears responsibility too. He was unwilling to do any of the things he is doing now - obviously because he desperately wants a second contact - sand while I'm happy he seems to have grown up and decided to take responsibility for himself for a change, I'm not willing to go so far as to pretend that means he's now a top player. He's a guy deserate to get a second contract, I won't be surprised if a) he gets one but not nearly as big as he expects, after all any team with brains will look at this entire tenure, not just the last few games and b) after signing he devolves back in to the habits that caused his initial setbacks.
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Post by FundamentallySoundJones on Dec 19, 2019 16:25:53 GMT -5
Sure. Message board hysteria drives FO decision making. And Flowers is a better player than Solder. Makes sense. Yes I think fan outcries can influence team decisions. We saw this when macadoo got fired for sitting Eli. In any case with regard to flowers we ended up with an even worse yet higher priced player. How that's a good outcome is beyond me. He knows they threatened to burn down the stadium and kill the back up wrote letters and then put up billboards to put pressure on mara . But some pretend that this had no effect. Since when have the giants fired a hc for 1 losing season? and not only that fire him midseason.
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Post by Sarcasman on Dec 19, 2019 16:33:07 GMT -5
Yes I think fan outcries can influence team decisions. We saw this when macadoo got fired for sitting Eli. In any case with regard to flowers we ended up with an even worse yet higher priced player. How that's a good outcome is beyond me. He knows they threatened to burn down the stadium and kill the back up wrote letters and then put up billboards to put pressure on mara . But some pretend that this had no effect. Since when have the giants fired a hc for 1 losing season? and not only that fire him midseason. Some pretend it did even in the complete absence of any proof whatsoever to support their feelings. Ray Handley. He got half the time McAdoo got and he didn't even lose control of his team the way Mcadoo did. And Mcadoo was fired with 4 games left, not mid season. Overall, I'm impressed, most folks can only manage to get one or two things factually wrong in a post, you did more than that before the first sentence was complete.
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Post by FundamentallySoundJones on Dec 19, 2019 17:06:12 GMT -5
Yes I think fan outcries can influence team decisions. We saw this when macadoo got fired for sitting Eli. In any case with regard to flowers we ended up with an even worse yet higher priced player. How that's a good outcome is beyond me. I disagree; I think that's complete nonsense. Mcadoo got fired for his incompetence. The outcry from pretty much everyone - you and I both know it was not only Giants fans - was just people reacting to an idiotic move by an overmatched HC. www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21611148/giants-co-owner-john-mara-voices-regrets-handling-eli-manning-benching“We’re still going to try to win the games. I read something somewhere about, are we going to tank the rest of the season? That’s complete (manure),” Mara said. “I would never allow that here. We’re going to try to win the games. We’re just going to have to try to do it with a different guy at quarterback.” The owner somewhat admitted on Wednesday that he was not expecting the backlash that followed the announcement, one that many ex-Giants and Fans spoke out on.
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Post by Sarcasman on Dec 19, 2019 18:23:45 GMT -5
I'm not surprised he was not expecting the backlash that followed the announcement. He left the handling of it in the hands of an amateur whose mismanagement caused the ending the consecutive starting game streak of their 2 time SB champion and likely HOF QB by a journeyman backup QB. He clearly isn't very bright.
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Post by IrishMike on Dec 20, 2019 16:59:44 GMT -5
You mean when we were having tons of trouble with our OL you can't believe they took the second best OT at pick 9? Yeah what a dumb move trying to fix the OL. Fools all of them. It doesn't matter anymore, but yes. Flowers was a reach at 9, and if we're being picky he wasn't the #2 OT.....Scherff and Peat were. He was a consensus late 1st rounder at best, he was known to have terrible technique, poor footwork and hand placement, lacked mobility....but he was strong. Many thought his best chance for success was sliding him into OG where his lack of technique wouldn't be exposed. This isn't a hindsight is 20/20 thing....most of us called it from day 1. Flowers was a reach. Consensus among who? Did you poll NFL GMs for that info?
There is a mock where he is picked #10 and actually suggests that he might not make it to them because the Giants might take him at #9. Scherff was thought to be a OG leading up to the draft and lost the competition for OT his rookie season and has been a OG since.
People here thinking someone was a reach means jack shit, they think that literally every single year. About 10 of us wanted to draft Barkley, no one else. Maybe 4 of us wanted Jones, no one else. Half the board didn't think we would draft Odell Beckham when and where he was drafted. The pick (Flowers) didn't work out but trying to address the OL was absolutely the right move and Scherff was gone.
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Post by piddy283 on Dec 21, 2019 1:46:12 GMT -5
It doesn't matter anymore, but yes. Flowers was a reach at 9, and if we're being picky he wasn't the #2 OT.....Scherff and Peat were. He was a consensus late 1st rounder at best, he was known to have terrible technique, poor footwork and hand placement, lacked mobility....but he was strong. Many thought his best chance for success was sliding him into OG where his lack of technique wouldn't be exposed. This isn't a hindsight is 20/20 thing....most of us called it from day 1. Flowers was a reach. Consensus among who? Did you poll NFL GMs for that info?
There is a mock where he is picked #10 and actually suggests that he might not make it to them because the Giants might take him at #9. Scherff was thought to be a OG leading up to the draft and lost the competition for OT his rookie season and has been a OG since.
People here thinking someone was a reach means jack shit, they think that literally every single year. About 10 of us wanted to draft Barkley, no one else. Maybe 4 of us wanted Jones, no one else. Half the board didn't think we would draft Odell Beckham when and where he was drafted. The pick (Flowers) didn't work out but trying to address the OL was absolutely the right move and Scherff was gone.
Good lord....I'm done with this discussion and didn't read the rest of your post. If you think Flowers was a good pick, more power to you
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Post by TEM on Dec 21, 2019 10:59:52 GMT -5
It doesn't matter anymore, but yes. Flowers was a reach at 9, and if we're being picky he wasn't the #2 OT.....Scherff and Peat were. He was a consensus late 1st rounder at best, he was known to have terrible technique, poor footwork and hand placement, lacked mobility....but he was strong. Many thought his best chance for success was sliding him into OG where his lack of technique wouldn't be exposed. This isn't a hindsight is 20/20 thing....most of us called it from day 1. Flowers was a reach. Consensus among who? Did you poll NFL GMs for that info?
There is a mock where he is picked #10 and actually suggests that he might not make it to them because the Giants might take him at #9. Scherff was thought to be a OG leading up to the draft and lost the competition for OT his rookie season and has been a OG since.
People here thinking someone was a reach means jack shit, they think that literally every single year. About 10 of us wanted to draft Barkley, no one else. Maybe 4 of us wanted Jones, no one else. Half the board didn't think we would draft Odell Beckham when and where he was drafted. The pick (Flowers) didn't work out but trying to address the OL was absolutely the right move and Scherff was gone.
There are no reach picks in 1st round of the draft. Or they all reach picks. It all depends on the side of the fence you are on . Both narratives are the same in connotation. If they were or weren't, the success rate for the 1st round would be higher than 58%.
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Post by IrishMike on Dec 21, 2019 13:26:33 GMT -5
Consensus among who? Did you poll NFL GMs for that info?
There is a mock where he is picked #10 and actually suggests that he might not make it to them because the Giants might take him at #9. Scherff was thought to be a OG leading up to the draft and lost the competition for OT his rookie season and has been a OG since.
People here thinking someone was a reach means jack shit, they think that literally every single year. About 10 of us wanted to draft Barkley, no one else. Maybe 4 of us wanted Jones, no one else. Half the board didn't think we would draft Odell Beckham when and where he was drafted. The pick (Flowers) didn't work out but trying to address the OL was absolutely the right move and Scherff was gone.
Good lord....I'm done with this discussion and didn't read the rest of your post. If you think Flowers was a good pick, more power to you Of course you didn't read the rest of the post that completely shot your ridiculous comment to shreds. I never once said Flowers was a good pick, that how ever is hindsight. You said he was a consensus late first round pick, which clearly he wasn't.
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Post by IrishMike on Dec 21, 2019 13:28:28 GMT -5
There are no reach picks in 1st round of the draft. Or they all reach picks. It all depends on the side of the fence you are on . Both narratives are the same in connotation. If they were or weren't, the success rate for the 1st round would be higher than 58%. The entire "reach" discussion is just silly to me. Guys are only a "reach" in hindsight. People had thought Odell a reach when that pick was made, don't hear that anymore.
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smitty
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Post by smitty on Dec 23, 2019 12:54:33 GMT -5
Not that we needed anymore fodder. But if this isn’t an indictment on Hal Turner... I was thinking the exact same thing. He had a decent rookie campaign, but his fundamentals deteriorated quickly.
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DJones19
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Post by DJones19 on Dec 23, 2019 13:38:34 GMT -5
There are no reach picks in 1st round of the draft. Or they all reach picks. It all depends on the side of the fence you are on . Both narratives are the same in connotation. If they were or weren't, the success rate for the 1st round would be higher than 58%. The entire "reach" discussion is just silly to me. Guys are only a "reach" in hindsight. People had thought Odell a reach when that pick was made, don't hear that anymore. Odell was a bad pick looking back on it. We passed on Aaron Darnold, Zack Martin, etc.. I'm amused that he was given the "high character guy" label early on like Eli Apple.
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Post by IrishMike on Dec 23, 2019 20:31:38 GMT -5
The entire "reach" discussion is just silly to me. Guys are only a "reach" in hindsight. People had thought Odell a reach when that pick was made, don't hear that anymore. Odell was a bad pick looking back on it. We passed on Aaron Darnold, Zack Martin, etc.. I'm amused that he was given the "high character guy" label early on like Eli Apple. I would not call Odell a bad pick. The guy lost his mind being on a losing team and all of his teammates seemed to have loved him. He didn't work out here in the end but that's not a bad pick. I wanted Martin in that draft (yet another guy I liked Dallas took) but who knows how he or Donald turn out if they came here.
Bad pick or not he absolutely was not a reach at that point in the draft. One of the top 5 most talented players in that draft and if he straightens his head out could be an all time great WR.
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