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Post by TCHOF on Mar 11, 2020 19:13:24 GMT -5
All of these guys are making the team? Once the pick is signed to contract . It goes against the cap. No. Until the final 53 is set to start the season only the top 51 salaries count against the cap. That’s how teams can have 90 guys on the roster to start training camp
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Post by TEM on Mar 11, 2020 19:27:39 GMT -5
Once the pick is signed to contract . It goes against the cap. No. Until the final 53 is set to start the season only the top 51 salaries count against the cap. That’s how teams can have 90 guys on the roster to start training camp I do not think it works that way with Draft picks. Draft picks inherently receive a signing bonus that will go against the cap. Around $100,000 for a 7th round pick. Let say all 4 of our 7th rounder do not make the 51. ( highly unlikely) Right off the bat . There is 400 Thousand in dead cap. It is still over 11 million for draft picks
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 11, 2020 19:52:29 GMT -5
It's actually very easy to guess where these guys going to get paid usually look at the top guys at their position and you figure out where these guys fit in. Top T makes 16.5, so youre suggesting Castonzo at age 31 is going to break than number? Top LBer are Mack/miller at 20+, then guys like Deon Jones who are closeish at 14 per. Littletpn isnt even Jones, and AtL put themselves in cap hell giving a LBer like that $70m/5yrs. I should have stopped reading after you said Golden was good against the run. Hahahahaha You understand that your numbers are not correct right?
Top OT is Lane Johnson making $18m per year. He signed that contract in 2019 at 29 and plays Right Tackle. Nate Solder makes $15.5m per year and signed that deal in 2018. So in 1 year the top signing OT went up $2.5m, the estimate I used for the top OT this year might actually be low considering he plays on the left side.
The top LB Khalil Mack makes $23.5m per year. Deon Jones and Zadarius Smith both signed last year for $14.25 and $16.5 respectively. Littleton could very well get in that range this year as the top LB in free agency.
You should have stopped typing before you started. You claim it is very easy to guess what they will get paid yet you don't even know what guys under contract are actually getting. Once again the numbers I used were not made up by me. It would be very fun to just make up numbers and say you signed everyone for $5m, but that is not realistic.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 11, 2020 20:05:26 GMT -5
Your 17 million after FA is ridiculous. Do you understand what the word estimate means?
How much would we save if we traded out of #4 to #7? That saves $2m right there. Then maybe we draft an OT and cut Solder, that frees up $6.5m. Then we restructure Golden Tate's deal and save another $4.5m. Then we trade Engram and save just shy of $2m. Then the cap is $2m higher than we estimated it would be. Then three of my estimates were $1.5m to high and two of them were $1m too low, that another $2.5.
That is another $19.5m total.
My point is everything here is an estimate, does it really matter? It's all for fun.
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Post by weekendwarrior on Mar 11, 2020 20:21:12 GMT -5
Would love to see when someone puts out who they would sign in FA sn analysis of how year 2 and year 3 look in terms of Cap impact. You cant sign 5 big contract guys in FA without dire cap consequences
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Post by TEM on Mar 11, 2020 20:29:16 GMT -5
Your 17 million after FA is ridiculous. Do you understand what the word estimate means?
How much would we save if we traded out of #4 to #7? That saves $2m right there. Then maybe we draft an OT and cut Solder, that frees up $6.5m. Then we restructure Golden Tate's deal and save another $4.5m. Then we trade Engram and save just shy of $2m. Then the cap is $2m higher than we estimated it would be. Then three of my estimates were $1.5m to high and two of them were $1m too low, that another $2.5.
That is another $19.5m total.
My point is everything here is an estimate, does it really matter? It's all for fun.
I know it is easy to have fun when you make stuff up to qualify numbers. That is what separates us for the real 32 GMs. They don't have the luxury of fantasy land.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 11, 2020 20:36:37 GMT -5
I know it is easy to have fun when you make stuff up to qualify numbers. That is what separates us for the real 32 GMs. They don't have the luxury of fantasy land. Every single number in this entire conversation is made up..."estimated". I said that from the start. We don't know shit right now lol.
Also just a question for you, did you read anything other than the numbers is that link you posted? I happen to read more than just the numbers and did you see what it said...
"The Rookie Pool is the total cost in cap dollars that a team needs to sign its rookies in the summer. The cap space required to do this is less than the rookie pool. This is because every draft pick signed will replace a player already counting against the cap."
So no it will not add $12m to our cap number leaving us with just $7m. In addition to that my cap number was based on 54 signed players, so we won't have to spend $7m trying to fill out the roster. Every additional person we would bring in would replace someone else already counting against the cap. So basically every number you posted is incorrect.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 11, 2020 20:45:42 GMT -5
Would love to see when someone puts out who they would sign in FA sn analysis of how year 2 and year 3 look in terms of Cap impact. You cant sign 5 big contract guys in FA without dire cap consequences I do not think Sportrac allows that other wise I would. I'm sure some site where you pay money for it would allow it though. The thing with the numbers I used is that contracts usually spread the money out in a non-symmetrical way. I just used the average salary for those guys but it would not work out that way.
Let's look at Julio Jones for instance. (TEM PAY ATTENTION HERE) In this exercise I would have said he costs us $22m. In reality in year 1 he would have only cost us $10m, then $20, $23, $19 and $19. Those are the actual numbers from his contract.
Now let's take Nate Solder. $15.5m per year (same as I would pay Littleton). Year 1- $10m 2- $12m 3- $19.5m 4- $20.5m
Contracts tend to look like this so we are not hamstringing our team by having to pay a ton. We pay a little up from and increase as it goes and gives us an out at some point, in Solders case if we cut him next year we save $14.5m.
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Post by TEM on Mar 11, 2020 20:48:22 GMT -5
I know it is easy to have fun when you make stuff up to qualify numbers. That is what separates us for the real 32 GMs. They don't have the luxury of fantasy land. Every single number in this entire conversation is made up..."estimated". I said that from the start. We don't know shit right now lol.
Also just a question for you, did you read anything other than the numbers is that link you posted? I happen to read more than just the numbers and did you see what it said...
"The Rookie Pool is the total cost in cap dollars that a team needs to sign its rookies in the summer. The cap space required to do this is less than the rookie pool. This is because every draft pick signed will replace a player already counting against the cap."
So no it will not add $12m to our cap number leaving us with just $7m. In addition to that my cap number was based on 54 signed players, so we won't have to spend $7m trying to fill out the roster. Every additional person we would bring in would replace someone else already counting against the cap. So basically every number you posted is incorrect. What players are those? Who did Barkley replace on the roster for his 5.7 rookie year salrey? Who's roster spot did Jones take last year for his Contract price 4.7 for his rookie year? How about Dexter Lawrence? Surely you can tell me who's roster spot and cap space he took? If you are going to come up with theories. Back them up. You cannot or you would have. Because we both know that the cap space hit has to be allocated before the draft. It is not pick a player, cut a player as you conveniently conclude.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 11, 2020 21:28:27 GMT -5
What players are those? Who did Barkley replace on the roster for his 5.7 rookie year salrey Who's roster spot did Jones take last year for his Contract price. ( 4.7) How about Dexter Lawrence Surely you can tell me who's roster spot and cap space he took If you are going to come up with theories. Back them up. You cannot because we both know that cap space hit has to be allocated before the draft. It is not pick a player, cut a player as you conveniently conclude. I did not come up with a theory, it was a direct quote from the website that YOU posted; oh by the way that's how it works.
The players we draft/sign will take the place of the players we release. This was exactly what TCHOF was talking about. If the draft pick makes the team they will be taking someones place. That guy we released would then not count against the cap and the draft pick would.
So by your math our draft picks would cost ~$13m. Let's assume all 10 picks make the roster. Does $13m go against our cap? No, because they had to replace 10 other players from our roster. The salary of the 10 lowest paid guys on our 51 player roster right now equals just over $6m. So the actual cost of signing our 10 rookies in cap dollars would be $7m.
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Post by TEM on Mar 11, 2020 21:30:58 GMT -5
What players are those? Who did Barkley replace on the roster for his 5.7 rookie year salrey Who's roster spot did Jones take last year for his Contract price. ( 4.7) How about Dexter Lawrence Surely you can tell me who's roster spot and cap space he took If you are going to come up with theories. Back them up. You cannot because we both know that cap space hit has to be allocated before the draft. It is not pick a player, cut a player as you conveniently conclude. I did not come up with a theory, it was a direct quote from the website that YOU posted; oh by the way that's how it works.
The players we draft/sign will take the place of the players we release. This was exactly what TCHOF was talking about. If the draft pick makes the team they will be taking someones place. That guy we released would then not count against the cap and the draft pick would.
So by your math our draft picks would cost ~$13m. Let's assume all 10 picks make the roster. Does $13m go against our cap? No, because they had to replace 10 other players from our roster. The salary of the 10 lowest paid guys on our 51 player roster right now equals just over $6m. So the actual cost of signing our 10 rookies in cap dollars would be $7m.
You make it sound like 12 million can be freed up by cutting PS players. That isn't happening against the 51. Or first 2 Draft pick are almost 9 million. it is 5 million. There is dead cap.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 11, 2020 21:39:44 GMT -5
You make it sound like 12 million can be freed up by cutting PS players. That isn't happening against the 51. Or first 2 Draft pick are almost 9 million. What? Who is talking about PS players, I'm talking your 51 players that go against the cap.
Pick 4: $6,698,020 Pick 36: $1,515,503 Pick 99: $754,270 Pick 110: $742,112 Pick 150: $611,882 Pick 183: $568,218 Pick 218: $542,324 Pick 238: $534,051 Pick 244: $532,759 Pick 247: $532,158 Pick 255: $532,158
Each one of these players (if they make the team) will replace someone in that top 51. The 10 lowest paid players on our 51 make between $511,000 and $585,000; for a total salary of $6m dropping off. $13m in new contracts MINUS $6m in released players = $7m
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Post by TEM on Mar 11, 2020 21:44:57 GMT -5
You make it sound like 12 million can be freed up by cutting PS players. That isn't happening against the 51. Or first 2 Draft pick are almost 9 million. What? Who is talking about PS players, I'm talking your 51 players that go against the cap.
Pick 4: $6,698,020 Pick 36: $1,515,503 Pick 99: $754,270 Pick 110: $742,112 Pick 150: $611,882 Pick 183: $568,218 Pick 218: $542,324 Pick 238: $534,051 Pick 244: $532,759 Pick 247: $532,158 Pick 255: $532,158
Each one of these players (if they make the team) will replace someone in that top 51. The 10 lowest paid players on our 51 make between $511,000 and $585,000; for a total salary of $6m dropping off. $13m in new contracts MINUS $6m in released players = $7m
You left out the dead cap. 510 *10 Drew Scott- Reggie White . A little over 5 million
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Post by Blue Hulk on Mar 11, 2020 22:07:31 GMT -5
If williams was taking 9mill per year, he'd already be signed.
Golden, and Williams
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 3:16:22 GMT -5
What happened to Clowney? Changed up almost all of the players on this one. My big contract this time was the LT.
Did you finally realize Clowney isn't the greatest edge player in the league and Conklin isn't the worst pass blocker in the league? Who wins if Conklin.... blocks Clowney? Wait, I might have the stats for that. So, even though your previous go to free agent signing on the OL, Solder, was a complete fail, you believe this go round Gettleman will hit a stud? While I'm not a fan of it, I can see this happening, believe it or not, even more so than throwing 20 plus at Clowney
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 3:35:24 GMT -5
Ok folks here we go with another addition of a possible free agent plan. Another exercise to see what we can get out there for our money.
Big Splash Anthony Castonzo - $17m. He is the best LT on the market but at his age we should be able to land him for this price. Maybe slightly higher but this is a good estimate.
Corey Littleton - $15m. The top cover LB in the league and just a really great all around LB. LBs are the biggest need for this D.
Markus Golden - $13.5m. He isn't the greatest pass rusher ever, but is consistent and plays the run well as well. Can't keep losing our top pass rushers especially in a year that the free agent pass rushers are weak (thanks franchise tags) and the draft is weak at edge as well.
Leonard Williams - $9m. A very fair price for him, he creates good pressure from the DT spot and helps out in the run game a ton. Keep this DL together.
Shaq Lawson - $7.5m. Very under the radar player that gets after the QB pretty well. Didn't get a ton of snaps but was still productive with the Bills. Should get him for a nice price.
This shores up our OL for a few more years. At this point we can still go OL in round 1 or 2 and if the rookie is able to start we can cut Solder gaining a good chunk of money back. Or the rookie can sit for a year and learn and replace Solder next year.
The DL get's held together and we add Shaq Lawson that is like Golden in his ability to stand up or play down. Gives us flexibility. We also add the top coverage LB in the NFL who is young and at a decent price. We can still go Simmons if we want which would just put our LBs over the top with both of them having tremendous coverage ability, or we can go any other direction in round 1 without fear of having no LBs.
We would have about $20m in cap space, counting our 51 players, before the draft after cutting Bethea. Needing about $7 to sign draft picks leaves us with $13m. I know DG said he wants $20m, but I think that was pre draft as there is no way to fill our holes and have $20m in cap space after the draft. In a year with his job on the line he can't afford to keep $20m sitting there.
Anthony Castonzo in a hard please no...Conklin I can get over...not Anthony Castonzo Oh, have to totally disagree here on this as well...Golden?...his sacks are of the not winning one on one but scheme driven (as per the video I posted on all his sacks points out)...and he is not really a good edge setter. Once the scheme is not for him, his sack totals go down, and that seems to be what you are stuck on...imagine a Golden without any sacks? He is not good against the run, despite what you typed. He's also the 84th ranked edge in the NFL...yes, PFF...but 84th. 84 I'd certainly not pay him 13.5 million per year...IMHO that would be a brutal waste of money. Lawson is also meh...we would be wanting his gone in a year or two for certain. IMHO of course....helped with advanced stats of course...and watching them more closely.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 12, 2020 15:10:08 GMT -5
You left out the dead cap. 510 *10 Drew Scott- Reggie White . A little over 5 million What dead cap space? We suffer zero dead cap space when we cut most of these guys. Some guys might give us $10,000 in dead cap. So at max releasing the guys at the bottom of the roster would cost us $100,000 in dead cap. So we gain $5.9m instead of $6m (which again 6 was just an estimate).
Either way signing our draft class won't actually add $12m to our cap number, it'll add closer to $7.
Also worth noting I realized my original $17m included more than just the 51 players, cutting it down to the top 51 brought our actual pre draft cap number to $20m. Minues the $8 for the draft leaves us with $12m and a full 53 man roster. This does not even factor in the staggered structure of the contracts with the first year usually being very cheap on the cap.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 12, 2020 15:10:56 GMT -5
If williams was taking 9mill per year, he'd already be signed. Golden, and Williams No he wouldn't. It would cost us a higher draft pick to sign him now instead of when free agency starts.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 12, 2020 15:15:12 GMT -5
Who wins if Conklin.... blocks Clowney? Wait, I might have the stats for that. So, even though your previous go to free agent signing on the OL, Solder, was a complete fail, you believe this go round Gettleman will hit a stud?While I'm not a fan of it, I can see this happening, believe it or not, even more so than throwing 20 plus at Clowney What is the alternative? If you miss on a player you should just never try to get another one lmao. Seems silly to me. As a fan of the Giants I sure as **** hope DG hits a stud the next time he brings in a OL whether draft or free agent.
Also Solder was not a complete fail, he is STILL an upgrade over Flowers.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 12, 2020 15:17:18 GMT -5
IMHO of course....helped with advanced stats of course...and watching them more closely. It's funny you keep quoting these advanced stats but when I asked you to share them with us you didn't. My guess is you have zero advanced stats that mean anything.
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Post by TEM on Mar 12, 2020 15:26:02 GMT -5
You left out the dead cap. 510 *10 Drew Scott- Reggie White . A little over 5 million What dead cap space? We suffer zero dead cap space when we cut most of these guys. Some guys might give us $10,000 in dead cap. So at max releasing the guys at the bottom of the roster would cost us $100,000 in dead cap. So we gain $5.9m instead of $6m (which again 6 was just an estimate).
Either way signing our draft class won't actually add $12m to our cap number, it'll add closer to $7.
Also worth noting I realized my original $17m included more than just the 51 players, cutting it down to the top 51 brought our actual pre draft cap number to $20m. Minues the $8 for the draft leaves us with $12m and a full 53 man roster. This does not even factor in the staggered structure of the contracts with the first year usually being very cheap on the cap.
69 thousand on George Asafo-adjei 7 thousand on Reggie White 6.7 thousand on Mark McLaurin 3.5 thousand on Alex Bachman 3.4 thousand on Nate Harvey 3 thousand on Derrick Baity 2 thousand on Tanner Volson 1 thousand on Kevin Wilkins 1 thousand on Nate Wozniak 1 thousand on George Aston 510 *10 = 5.1 million less the 100 thousand in dead cap.
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Post by TEM on Mar 12, 2020 15:28:08 GMT -5
IMHO of course....helped with advanced stats of course...and watching them more closely. It's funny you keep quoting these advanced stats but when I asked you to share them with us you didn't. My guess is you have zero advanced stats that mean anything. His stats are none existing . You and I may disagree at times but at least there is some validity to what we convey.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 12, 2020 16:01:13 GMT -5
69 thousand on George Asafo-adjei 7 thousand on Reggie White 6.7 thousand on Mark McLaurin 3.5 thousand on Alex Bachman 3.4 thousand on Nate Harvey 3 thousand on Derrick Baity 2 thousand on Tanner Volson 1 thousand on Kevin Wilkins 1 thousand on Nate Wozniak 1 thousand on George Aston 510 *10 = 5.1 million less the 100 thousand in dead cap. My numbers were from before I notice Big George. Your numbers are still slightly wrong based on my roster in SporTrac. The bottom 10 on my 51 man roster are
Volson - 511,000 Baity - 511,500 Harvey - 511,666 Bachman - 511,750 McLaurin - 513,333 White - 513,750 Big George - 533,092 Sills - 585,000 Tauaefa - 585,000 Smith - 585,000
Total salary - $5,361,091
Now this is assuming we cut our bottom 10 players which we can both agree will certainly not happen. I would of course go into more detail about who exactly I would cut after the draft to get a more accurate number....but this would require me to do an entire draft ect. The purpose of this exercise is to just see who I could sign in free agency. There are always ways to make more cap space if we needed to.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 16:55:24 GMT -5
IMHO of course....helped with advanced stats of course...and watching them more closely. It's funny you keep quoting these advanced stats but when I asked you to share them with us you didn't. My guess is you have zero advanced stats that mean anything. Why would I post them here...pick up the tab...beginning to believe you are Scottish vs Irish...cheap bastard.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 17:04:58 GMT -5
It's funny you keep quoting these advanced stats but when I asked you to share them with us you didn't. My guess is you have zero advanced stats that mean anything. His stats are none existing . You and I may disagree at times but at least there is some validity to what we convey. I'm guessing when you guys get a room, you do Holiday Inn express...
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Post by TEM on Mar 12, 2020 17:09:13 GMT -5
His stats are none existing . You and I may disagree at times but at least there is some validity to what we convey. I'm guessing when you guys get a room, you do Holiday Inn express... Nah we were born with universal knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 17:28:29 GMT -5
I'm guessing when you guys get a room, you do Holiday Inn express... Nah we were born with universal knowledge. Well, if you say so Spock. If you love stats so much TEM, join the pay services...I know, easier to bitch about them vs pay up, but I assure you my fellow stat loving friend...it IS worth it.
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Post by TEM on Mar 12, 2020 17:51:12 GMT -5
Nah we were born with universal knowledge. Well, if you say so Spock. If you love stats so much TEM, join the pay services...I know, easier to bitch about them vs pay up, but I assure you my fellow stat loving friend...it IS worth it. I would if I knew what their methodology was base upon. I don't get how an individual's player performance can be judged the way that they claim to do. When all 22 on the field have a direct influence on each other. Why I would like to be able to examine the data to understand the conclusions they draw. To me as it stands now their inclinations are based on philosophy.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 12, 2020 17:59:53 GMT -5
Why would I post them here...pick up the tab...beginning to believe you are Scottish vs Irish...cheap bastard. Cause you sit here and make fun of everyone's opinion then hide behind "the stats I am seeing say that you should only take CBs born during daylight hours within 750 miles of Disney World" and then expect us all to believe you. You did it with Clowney, and with the must draft OL crap, and the WR in the first round, and signing free agent RBs is dumb talk.
Your opinions are full of shit and when you can't back them up you make fun of the other posters and hide behind these magic stats only you can see.
Well the advance stats I am looking at say you're fired.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 18:27:57 GMT -5
Why would I post them here...pick up the tab...beginning to believe you are Scottish vs Irish...cheap bastard. Cause you sit here and make fun of everyone's opinion then hide behind "the stats I am seeing say that you should only take CBs born during daylight hours within 750 miles of Disney World" and then expect us all to believe you. You did it with Clowney, and with the must draft OL crap, and the WR in the first round, and signing free agent RBs is dumb talk.
Your opinions are full of shit and when you can't back them up you make fun of the other posters and hide behind these magic stats only you can see.
Well the advance stats I am looking at say you're fired. Magical stats? They are on a sites pay for area, cause as you said,....they make a profit...just like ESPN insider...they have copyright rules. If you don't want to believe their rankings, not much I can do. But I will keep posting insider information, with out elite level stats that are not specific. Trust your eyes Mike...most stats are what our eyes see.
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