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Post by jaymas on May 19, 2021 19:51:04 GMT -5
Yeah that’s my feeling. Short term. Like. Does even anyone in Denver smile over Peytons victory and reminisce like Colts fans do? Or do they just enjoy it and it’s over. Hell, even without 42, thinking about 46 still gives me a grin. I think the last Bronco SB win is still a big positive for them because it was the defense that won it for them. Well and Peyton was there for 4 seasons and had some of the best of his career with them. Peyton was an interesting mercenary situation to me. |
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Post by giantlegacy on May 19, 2021 19:51:52 GMT -5
I agree. But mostly because I know it takes more than a good/great QB to win a ring. If a good QB puts us over the top I see little difference than a good wr or de. Just look at the last Superbowl. Brady obviously made a difference, but Mahomes wasn't ineffective because of Brady. He was ineffective because of the opposing d. I'd even say he was ineffective because of him losing his 2 starting OTs. Obviously the better your QB is, the more you can slack on talent elsewhere. That said, it will always be a team game. That Bucs team is stacked once again. So how did that work out for Andrew Luck? |
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Post by TheAnalyst on May 19, 2021 19:54:39 GMT -5
I'd even say he was ineffective because of him losing his 2 starting OTs. Obviously the better your QB is, the more you can slack on talent elsewhere. That said, it will always be a team game. That Bucs team is stacked once again. So how did that work out for Andrew Luck? I didn't say you could abandon talent around a great QB. Colts messed up good. |
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te88
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Post by te88 on May 19, 2021 21:34:01 GMT -5
It’s definitely more special when you do it with a home grown guy. To be honest I don’t think it’s really even debatable.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2021 23:39:02 GMT -5
I believe Mark Messier was the "extreme" face of the franchise, albeit a short amount of time. Gretzky was more of a soldier of fortune IMHO vs Messier...but when you have not won since 1940, that could have made his 94 run that much more special in what he accomplished. Leetch was the face of the franchise his career during that span ...so your point is taken. And yes, the QB will always be the face and the most important player on any team... There's some exceptions. I thought LT was the face of the franchise. Mean Joe Greene. Ray Lewis. Vonn Miller. Yep...Ray Lewis another great example you gave. If we go back years past, many of the running backs were the faces as well.... |
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Post by ocgiant on May 20, 2021 1:48:01 GMT -5
Obvious choice is to watch our potential franchise QB DJ take a big growth step this year and eventually lead the team to winning the SB. No doubt the ideal situation and the one I'd prefer to see happen.
Winning with a hired gun? I don't know... if a Wilson or Rodgers did come in and took this team to the next level and won a SB with the Giants I think that would out weigh it being considered tainted or weird.
Each SB winning team has a unique story/journey of it's own and if it did happen here, I'd be okay with it as a Giant's fan.
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Post by Roswell on May 20, 2021 6:26:13 GMT -5
At the end of the day, it’s about putting trophies in the showcase. And if the Giants didn’t break any serious rules or benefit from a horrendous game deciding blown call in the SB then it’s all good in the neighborhood.
I don’t see why their championship in a team sport would be tainted by obtaining a player at any position.
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Post by Roswell on May 20, 2021 6:28:37 GMT -5
What mikedcherry said on the difference between Brady and Brees. Brees is a Saint... Brady is a Mercenary. In '90 I was thrilled with the SB win, and proud of the great job Hoss did, but I always felt, "I wish it had been Simms". He was our man from '79 when he was drafted, and had a great SB win in '86..... and he brought us to 11-3 in that '90 season. More than anything I knew that 2nd SB win for him would probably be sure entry into the HOF... and I was probably right. If Eli gets in, that 2nd SB win will be the difference. One more thought... IMO we win the '90 Buffalo SB easy, just like against the Bronco's in '86, if Phil is the QB. No last second melodramatics with "Wide Right". I think the 90 super bowl still satisfies without Simms because of the necessary “magic” and great defense required to pull it off. Hoss wasn’t brought in to replace Simms - we, as a team, won in spite not because of him. And that’s great and supplies a lasting impact for the fans. Was it a little bittersweet? Sure. But still sweet enough. We won in spite of Hoss? I thought he was very good in big games and was a big part of their run. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2021 7:17:43 GMT -5
I'd be very happy if Rodgers came here and won us a SB. I'd be very happy if DJ won us a SB. I'd be very happy if Eli came out of retirement and won us a SB. I'd be very happy if Tebow came here and won us a SB. Point being for me, as always, is winning. Don't care who wins it for us. This is where I'm at after watching Reggie put the Yankees over the top a couple of times it didn't matter to me.. Winning is what sports are about at this level.. Basketball is the poster child of purchasing a title.. |
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Post by TEM on May 20, 2021 7:36:29 GMT -5
Interesting question ... I think that there is some truth to the fan base feeling differently about Super Bowl wins. Although I think that would only apply to teams that have multiple SB wins. In other words, they might feel better about the SB win they got with the home-grown QB rather than the one that they got with a mercenary QB. Teams that achieve their first SB win with a mercenary QB will just be happy to get one. I'd rather take my chances with Daniel Jones....or the next guy we draft next year.
It would feel too contrived if we traded for Rodgers or even Wilson. Free agency is one thing, but this wouldn't feel right.
YA and Collins were traded for. I do not think I would have that same endearment as a Giant for Rodgers, as I have for those two that brought us to championship games. Although Collins lost in the SB . His blood was blue. Rodgers will always be green. |
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Post by Kruunch on May 20, 2021 8:45:39 GMT -5
This is a debate? I’ll be happy if we won a super bowl with Mickey Mouse.
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Post by Zimonami on May 20, 2021 8:45:48 GMT -5
I don't know. O'J. Anderson was a great RB for the Cards. He made most of his career stats as a Card. Hell he wasn't even a starter on the Giants squad. He was depth. But when he got his chance we fed him the ball over and over that SB run. Otis till this day considers himself a NY Giant. He gets applauded whenever he enters a room to speak to Giant fans as a hero. Is it just a QB that's different ? Not sure how I would feel, But if Earl Morrow, Craig Morton, or Fran Tarkenton would have won a SB for us it would not be tainted to me. Craig Morton? lol. Yes, a Giant, but spent 7 yrs with the Cowboys before us, 2 full years with us and 5 more with the Broncos. I don't think many fans considered him a Giant, especially since he played on horrible Giant teams. OJ had 7+ yrs in his prime with the Cards and only 6 yrs with us at the tail end of his career... but, his veteran presence in the huddle and guidance on the sidelines with Hoss was something Hoss said he always appreciated. SB XXV MVP. Most Giant fans know his best was with the Cards, but appreciate his time with us and what he did to help us win a SB. If Morton could have helped us have a winning, playoff season he would have been more appreciated. Morrall played 18 yrs with 4 teams... and only 3 of them as a Giant.... and, like Morton, they were bad years, so he gets little props as a GMan. Fran? I never liked Fran. He never had his OLine's backs. Always complained about the lack of blocking. You never once heard Eli blame his Oline for his bad performance. |
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Post by Nite on May 20, 2021 8:51:50 GMT -5
Me: "Im giving you a 1M dollars tax free, no strings, pay off the house take the missus on vacay"
Most Board Members:" Naw I feel weird doing that and I don't think I like you"
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Post by trueblueatnyc on May 20, 2021 10:02:05 GMT -5
I think it depends on how long the player stays with the team before and after the championship.
Breese was with the Saints I think for a year before they won, and stayed with them long after. Messier was with the Rangers a couple of seasons before they won in 94 and stayed on the team a few years after.
I think people forget how long a single season can feel in real time. So I don't think a player needs to be with a team for a really long time in order for them to move out of that "mercenary" status.
So, while I think it means a little more to the fanbase to know they won a title with a team that was together for a while, it's better to win with mercs than to not win one at all.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on May 20, 2021 11:15:22 GMT -5
I don't know. O'J. Anderson was a great RB for the Cards. He made most of his career stats as a Card. Hell he wasn't even a starter on the Giants squad. He was depth. But when he got his chance we fed him the ball over and over that SB run. Otis till this day considers himself a NY Giant. He gets applauded whenever he enters a room to speak to Giant fans as a hero. Is it just a QB that's different ? Not sure how I would feel, But if Earl Morrow, Craig Morton, or Fran Tarkenton would have won a SB for us it would not be tainted to me. Craig Morton? lol. Yes, a Giant, but spent 7 yrs with the Cowboys before us, 2 full years with us and 5 more with the Broncos. I don't think many fans considered him a Giant, especially since he played on horrible Giant teams. OJ had 7+ yrs in his prime with the Cards and only 6 yrs with us at the tail end of his career... but, his veteran presence in the huddle and guidance on the sidelines with Hoss was something Hoss said he always appreciated. SB XXV MVP. Most Giant fans know his best was with the Cards, but appreciate his time with us and what he did to help us win a SB. If Morton could have helped us have a winning, playoff season he would have been more appreciated. Morrall played 18 yrs with 4 teams... and only 3 of them as a Giant.... and, like Morton, they were bad years, so he gets little props as a GMan. Fran? I never liked Fran. He never had his OLine's backs. Always complained about the lack of blocking. You never once heard Eli blame his Oline for his bad performance. Right Zim, and if those QB's won a SB for the NY Giants like OJ Anderson did they would be appreciated as much as OJ is. It wouldn't be tainted to me. But as Giant fans all 3 of our winning SB QB's were drafted by the Giants so we all watched them grow and knew what they went through. We certainly felt gratified. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 20, 2021 11:29:12 GMT -5
Had a conversation with a guy at work about this. Do you think fan bases feel differently about Super Bowls won by late career team switching QBs? Do you think it feels more special when it’s a home grown or originally drafted boy? Do you think Tampa cared that it was Brady - a guy who will enter the hall as a patriot - that won them their championship? Would winning it with Winston have felt better? Obviously Elway’s two wins are more meaningful to Denver than likely any QB in that town could hope - but do you think Peyton’s victory still brings a smile? Obviously it’s not happening, but if Rodgers came here in and won - I think it wouldn’t satisfy the way it would if DJ did it. Anyone agree or is a championship a championship and you’re just happy regardless? And then there’s Brees and the Saints. Not originally their guy, but I don’t think they cared. I think they wouldn’t want it any other way. But he was a guy they took a chance on coming off injury. Not a sure thing. Also interesting that it’s exclusively QB I feel this about. Any other mercenary FA pick up that puts us over the top doesn’t even factor into consideration for how much I relish the victory. Anyway. Bored Wednesday thoughts. I don't think Tampa would care about how they got there and won it. For the franchise it would have been nice to win with the QB they chose in the draft, That said depending on the draft your choices might be slim, freeagncy tho when a guy like Brady becomes available and he has maybe 2 or 3 years left in the tank and a team like Tampa believed they were a great QB away from winning it all why no, t good move by their front office reading the roster correctly and making a redeeming move it got them a trophy. |
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Post by Zimonami on May 20, 2021 12:28:35 GMT -5
Craig Morton? lol. Yes, a Giant, but spent 7 yrs with the Cowboys before us, 2 full years with us and 5 more with the Broncos. I don't think many fans considered him a Giant, especially since he played on horrible Giant teams. OJ had 7+ yrs in his prime with the Cards and only 6 yrs with us at the tail end of his career... but, his veteran presence in the huddle and guidance on the sidelines with Hoss was something Hoss said he always appreciated. SB XXV MVP. Most Giant fans know his best was with the Cards, but appreciate his time with us and what he did to help us win a SB. If Morton could have helped us have a winning, playoff season he would have been more appreciated. Morrall played 18 yrs with 4 teams... and only 3 of them as a Giant.... and, like Morton, they were bad years, so he gets little props as a GMan. Fran? I never liked Fran. He never had his OLine's backs. Always complained about the lack of blocking. You never once heard Eli blame his Oline for his bad performance. Right Zim, and if those QB's won a SB for the NY Giants like OJ Anderson did they would be appreciated as much as OJ is. It wouldn't be tainted to me. But as Giant fans all 3 of our winning SB QB's were drafted by the Giants so we all watched them grow and knew what they went through. We certainly felt gratified. Absolutely they would be appreciated. I'm sure the TB fans appreciate Brady... Denver appreciates Peyton. In their hearts they appreciate Elway just a tad more than Peyton, but a SB is a SB, and it's a team game with 21 other starters. |
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Post by Jomo on May 20, 2021 16:00:46 GMT -5
I don't know...Mark Messier is always an Oiler, but he will always be a NY Ranger, and a God like figure... to every fan who sat in the blue seats for years. True but he wasn't really a hired gun. He put in some time here, enough imo for the fans to build a real connection. It looks like he gave us 10 years of that illustrious career.....not anything like a Peyton Manning thing in Denver. He also wasn't a prima donna QB, he was a star but a star who was willing to grind with the best of them. |
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njsean
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Post by njsean on May 20, 2021 17:57:11 GMT -5
I think the 90 super bowl still satisfies without Simms because of the necessary “magic” and great defense required to pull it off. Hoss wasn’t brought in to replace Simms - we, as a team, won in spite not because of him. And that’s great and supplies a lasting impact for the fans. Was it a little bittersweet? Sure. But still sweet enough. We won in spite of Hoss? I thought he was very good in big games and was a big part of their run. No, that’s true. Poor choice of words or phrase. I just meant it like he wasn’t someone we needed to get over the hump. |
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Post by IrishMike on May 20, 2021 19:50:12 GMT -5
I think it is very easy for us Giants fans to say that we prefer the home grown guy to the merc because all four of our Super Bowls were won with home grown QBs. I can't honestly say that I would feel different if Rodgers came in here and won for us. It would be much worse if it was Brady (or Dak or Wentz) coming in here since I have routed against him for so long, I'd find it odd rooting for him.
The question I have is how many times has this mercenary approach actually worked? Brady and Peyton and both of those teams won with a dominant defense. I don't buy into the "Rodgers makes anyone a contender" bs that the media puts out there.
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Post by Roswell on May 20, 2021 20:01:55 GMT -5
I think it is very easy for us Giants fans to say that we prefer the home grown guy to the merc because all four of our Super Bowls were won with home grown QBs. I can't honestly say that I would feel different if Rodgers came in here and won for us. It would be much worse if it was Brady (or Dak or Wentz) coming in here since I have routed against him for so long, I'd find it odd rooting for him. The question I have is how many times has this mercenary approach actually worked? Brady and Peyton and both of those teams won with a dominant defense. I don't buy into the "Rodgers makes anyone a contender" bs that the media puts out there. I’m surprised that the Redskins aren’t moving heaven and earth to try and get Rodgers. |
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Post by IrishMike on May 21, 2021 20:00:35 GMT -5
I think it is very easy for us Giants fans to say that we prefer the home grown guy to the merc because all four of our Super Bowls were won with home grown QBs. I can't honestly say that I would feel different if Rodgers came in here and won for us. It would be much worse if it was Brady (or Dak or Wentz) coming in here since I have routed against him for so long, I'd find it odd rooting for him. The question I have is how many times has this mercenary approach actually worked? Brady and Peyton and both of those teams won with a dominant defense. I don't buy into the "Rodgers makes anyone a contender" bs that the media puts out there. I’m surprised that the Redskins aren’t moving heaven and earth to try and get Rodgers. I agree. I was actually thinking about this the other day. How much of your future would you be willing to give up for a chance to win now? From a Giants perspective I would not be willing to give up Jones and the future with him for Rodgers and a chance to win now. If I'm the Redskins and I don't have a potential franchise QB but a stacked D and decent pieces on the offense I would trade several years worth of picks for Rodgers and that chance to win now. |
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Post by SG88 on May 22, 2021 9:15:22 GMT -5
Had a conversation with a guy at work about this. Do you think fan bases feel differently about Super Bowls won by late career team switching QBs? Do you think it feels more special when it’s a home grown or originally drafted boy? Do you think Tampa cared that it was Brady - a guy who will enter the hall as a patriot - that won them their championship? Would winning it with Winston have felt better? Obviously Elway’s two wins are more meaningful to Denver than likely any QB in that town could hope - but do you think Peyton’s victory still brings a smile? Obviously it’s not happening, but if Rodgers came here in and won - I think it wouldn’t satisfy the way it would if DJ did it. Anyone agree or is a championship a championship and you’re just happy regardless? And then there’s Brees and the Saints. Not originally their guy, but I don’t think they cared. I think they wouldn’t want it any other way. But he was a guy they took a chance on coming off injury. Not a sure thing. Also interesting that it’s exclusively QB I feel this about. Any other mercenary FA pick up that puts us over the top doesn’t even factor into consideration for how much I relish the victory. Anyway. Bored Wednesday thoughts. I would be happy regardless. A team doesn't have to win the way that I want them to in order for me to be pleased. The goal for NFL teams is to win by any means necessary. When it comes to the QB, I prefer a sure thing over a possibility. Rodgers is a sure thing. He is a far superior option than waiting to see if Jones can even be a fraction of what Rodgers is.This team would be in SB contention for the next 3 years at a minimum with someone like that. Our team IMO is average QB play away from winning the NFCE and good to great QB play away from contending for a Super Bowl. Anyways, I feel that the New York Giants are a lot closer than the experts think. It will all come down to how the QB performs. |
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Post by SG88 on May 22, 2021 9:18:17 GMT -5
I think it is very easy for us Giants fans to say that we prefer the home grown guy to the merc because all four of our Super Bowls were won with home grown QBs. I can't honestly say that I would feel different if Rodgers came in here and won for us. It would be much worse if it was Brady (or Dak or Wentz) coming in here since I have routed against him for so long, I'd find it odd rooting for him. The question I have is how many times has this mercenary approach actually worked? Brady and Peyton and both of those teams won with a dominant defense. I don't buy into the "Rodgers makes anyone a contender" bs that the media puts out there. I’m surprised that the Redskins aren’t moving heaven and earth to try and get Rodgers. I think that they already tried on a DL. If they tried for Stafford, they would certainly have tried for Rodgers, right? |
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Post by giantlegacy on May 22, 2021 10:53:18 GMT -5
If we go this route I'd much rather get Wilson
He still is relatively young and in his prime (I think he has at least 7 years left )and been healthy his entire career..
Get a semi long term guy that coincides with a long term championship window
Let's see what Jones is first and another year of this team growing
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Post by Sarcasman on May 22, 2021 21:31:12 GMT -5
I think it is very easy for us Giants fans to say that we prefer the home grown guy to the merc because all four of our Super Bowls were won with home grown QBs. I can't honestly say that I would feel different if Rodgers came in here and won for us. It would be much worse if it was Brady (or Dak or Wentz) coming in here since I have routed against him for so long, I'd find it odd rooting for him. The question I have is how many times has this mercenary approach actually worked? Brady and Peyton and both of those teams won with a dominant defense. I don't buy into the "Rodgers makes anyone a contender" bs that the media puts out there. I think he is one of maybe two or three QBs that does make any team a contender, but contending in the NFL means making the playoffs which is not a very high bar. After that is when the real work starts. |
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Post by IrishMike on May 23, 2021 11:10:51 GMT -5
I think he is one of maybe two or three QBs that does make any team a contender, but contending in the NFL means making the playoffs which is not a very high bar. After that is when the real work starts. I'm not convinced Rodgers on the Jags last year make that team win another 8+ games. The Packers had 6 All Pro players, the Jags didn't have a single pro bowler. He obviously makes any team much better though.
My comment was more based on the talking heads on radio saying any team he goes to will compete for the Super Bowl which I just find obsurd considering how good all the top tier teams are. They all have stud QBs, but they also have an entire team of really good players. Adding Rodgers to the Jets does not turn the Jets into the Packers.
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Post by Sarcasman on May 23, 2021 13:46:26 GMT -5
I think he is one of maybe two or three QBs that does make any team a contender, but contending in the NFL means making the playoffs which is not a very high bar. After that is when the real work starts. I'm not convinced Rodgers on the Jags last year make that team win another 8+ games. The Packers had 6 All Pro players, the Jags didn't have a single pro bowler. He obviously makes any team much better though.
My comment was more based on the talking heads on radio saying any team he goes to will compete for the Super Bowl which I just find obsurd considering how good all the top tier teams are. They all have stud QBs, but they also have an entire team of really good players. Adding Rodgers to the Jets does not turn the Jets into the Packers.
I agree in concept. The QB makes a difference, but not nearly the difference the NFL martketing media makes it out to be. It's the reason I don't want Rodgers. Sure he likely gets a game or two and that's the difference between making the playoffs or not. But that's it. He isn't carrying a weaker team to a championship. If that was gonna happen it'd have happened by now, he's been in the league 15 years. |
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Post by giantlegacy on May 23, 2021 14:46:06 GMT -5
I'm not convinced Rodgers on the Jags last year make that team win another 8+ games. The Packers had 6 All Pro players, the Jags didn't have a single pro bowler. He obviously makes any team much better though.
My comment was more based on the talking heads on radio saying any team he goes to will compete for the Super Bowl which I just find obsurd considering how good all the top tier teams are. They all have stud QBs, but they also have an entire team of really good players. Adding Rodgers to the Jets does not turn the Jets into the Packers.
I agree in concept. The QB makes a difference, but not nearly the difference the NFL martketing media makes it out to be. It's the reason I don't want Rodgers. Sure he likely gets a game or two and that's the difference between making the playoffs or not. But that's it. He isn't carrying a weaker team to a championship. If that was gonna happen it'd have happened by now, he's been in the league 15 years. One could argue Eli carried the weakest team ever to win a Super Bowl in a year they demolished Rodger's Packers when they had a 15-1 record |
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Post by IrishMike on May 23, 2021 19:29:09 GMT -5
I'm not convinced Rodgers on the Jags last year make that team win another 8+ games. The Packers had 6 All Pro players, the Jags didn't have a single pro bowler. He obviously makes any team much better though.
My comment was more based on the talking heads on radio saying any team he goes to will compete for the Super Bowl which I just find obsurd considering how good all the top tier teams are. They all have stud QBs, but they also have an entire team of really good players. Adding Rodgers to the Jets does not turn the Jets into the Packers.
I agree in concept. The QB makes a difference, but not nearly the difference the NFL martketing media makes it out to be. It's the reason I don't want Rodgers. Sure he likely gets a game or two and that's the difference between making the playoffs or not. But that's it. He isn't carrying a weaker team to a championship. If that was gonna happen it'd have happened by now, he's been in the league 15 years. Yeah it blows my mind that he can't take a team with 5 other All Pro players to the Super Bowl but people act like he can take the Jets there. Sure it worked out for Brady...on a team loaded with offensive talent and one of the top defenses in the league. Just call that the Peyton Manning method. |
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