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Post by TEM on Jul 27, 2021 16:37:03 GMT -5
Denver's secondary is scary good. that's right, so is the giants. Correct. I was making the point. We need to hit it hard out of the gate.
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Post by McCherry on Jul 27, 2021 16:52:50 GMT -5
flowers still isn't that good but he is average to below average he will always have a job. Flowers 2020 PFF grade - 65.9 2019 64.1 2018 65.4 Will Hernandez 2020 PFF grade - 58.1 2019 58.4 2018 67.9 Ereck Flowers is better than Will Hernandez yet I don't hear the same unbridled hatred (no reference to you kind sir) for a player that wasn't even drafted to play LT. Because of the failings of the GM, they never thought to move flowers and upgrade the tackle spot. You can't put that on Flowers. He was given a bum deal from the start. EVERYONE knew he was a guard. At what, relocating? Flowers has changed team 4 times in 7 seasons.
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Post by GameTime on Jul 27, 2021 19:43:32 GMT -5
another gamble they are taking. Hopefully it pays off
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Post by Roosevelt on Jul 27, 2021 20:07:11 GMT -5
flowers still isn't that good but he is average to below average he will always have a job. Flowers 2020 PFF grade - 65.9 2019 64.1 2018 65.4 Will Hernandez 2020 PFF grade - 58.1 2019 58.4 2018 67.9 Ereck Flowers is better than Will Hernandez yet I don't hear the same unbridled hatred (no reference to you kind sir) for a player that wasn't even drafted to play LT. Because of the failings of the GM, they never thought to move flowers and upgrade the tackle spot.
You can't put that on Flowers. He was given a bum deal from the start. EVERYONE knew he was a guard. How is this on the GM and not on the Oline Coach, OC, and Head Coach?
You think the GM has final say on player positions? As in Jerry Reese forced Tom Coughlin to keep Flowers at tackle?
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Post by GameTime on Jul 27, 2021 20:37:39 GMT -5
flowers still isn't that good but he is average to below average he will always have a job. Flowers 2020 PFF grade - 65.9 2019 64.1 2018 65.4 Will Hernandez 2020 PFF grade - 58.1 2019 58.4 2018 67.9 Ereck Flowers is better than Will Hernandez yet I don't hear the same unbridled hatred (no reference to you kind sir) for a player that wasn't even drafted to play LT. Because of the failings of the GM, they never thought to move flowers and upgrade the tackle spot. You can't put that on Flowers. He was given a bum deal from the start. EVERYONE knew he was a guard. he turned out to be an ok G. But it was more than that. He was also viewed as uncoachable too. They got rid of him and it was the right move.
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Post by McCherry on Jul 27, 2021 20:47:40 GMT -5
Flowers 2020 PFF grade - 65.9 2019 64.1 2018 65.4 Will Hernandez 2020 PFF grade - 58.1 2019 58.4 2018 67.9 Ereck Flowers is better than Will Hernandez yet I don't hear the same unbridled hatred (no reference to you kind sir) for a player that wasn't even drafted to play LT. Because of the failings of the GM, they never thought to move flowers and upgrade the tackle spot.
You can't put that on Flowers. He was given a bum deal from the start. EVERYONE knew he was a guard. How is this on the GM and not on the Oline Coach, OC, and Head Coach?
You think the GM has final say on player positions? As in Jerry Reese forced Tom Coughlin to keep Flowers at tackle? In 2017 Andrew Whitworth expressed interest in coming here and was told "no thanks" by Jerry Reese. But Flowers has been a failure all on his own. He’s graded slightly above average as a Guard, but has been kicked from team to team since leaving. We can only guess the reasons.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jul 27, 2021 21:23:43 GMT -5
flowers still isn't that good but he is average to below average he will always have a job. Flowers 2020 PFF grade - 65.9 2019 64.1 2018 65.4 Will Hernandez 2020 PFF grade - 58.1 2019 58.4 2018 67.9 Ereck Flowers is better than Will Hernandez yet I don't hear the same unbridled hatred (no reference to you kind sir) for a player that wasn't even drafted to play LT. Because of the failings of the GM, they never thought to move flowers and upgrade the tackle spot. You can't put that on Flowers. He was given a bum deal from the start. EVERYONE knew he was a guard. #1 Will was a second round pick and lets see Flowers PFF grades at tackle where he was supposed to be the future. That 67.9 as a rookie is higher then any grade Flowers ever produced. #2 Flowers isa Top 10 pick and going into year 7 of his career Hernandez ddi not have the good fortune of being coached by real OL coaches and is going into year 4
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Jul 27, 2021 21:27:23 GMT -5
I like that they have three coaches dedicated to the OL. I don't recall seeing that many coaches dedicated to a position group. But it's great to be able to give each of the players individual attention. Just gotta make sure the coaches aren't contradicting each other like seemed to occur with Columbo and Judge last year.
What I will say is that as the year went on last season the line significantly improved. Watch their first game against DAL and then watch their last game, it's like night and day. We had a ton of youth and inexperience on the OL last year. You had three rookies playing a lot along with Gates playing a new position.
Hopefully they make another step forward going into this season and become a steady group. I am very worried though about the depth, particularly if Gates gets hurt they are in big trouble.
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Post by Blue Hulk on Jul 27, 2021 21:48:17 GMT -5
Flowers 2020 PFF grade - 65.9 2019 64.1 2018 65.4 Will Hernandez 2020 PFF grade - 58.1 2019 58.4 2018 67.9 Ereck Flowers is better than Will Hernandez yet I don't hear the same unbridled hatred (no reference to you kind sir) for a player that wasn't even drafted to play LT. Because of the failings of the GM, they never thought to move flowers and upgrade the tackle spot. You can't put that on Flowers. He was given a bum deal from the start. EVERYONE knew he was a guard. How was he giving a bum deal? He was paid millions of dollars to fall on his face every Sunday. On top of that, he had issues with two highly respected offensive line coaches. Ereck was a pansy here, and worked his way up to a daffodil. Also, being better than Hernandez is no accomplishment. A bum deal is not being put in a situation to succeed. Saquon Barkley was given a bum deal being drafted #2 with a shaky OL. If Will Beatty didn't get injured, Flowers would have started at RT and had a vet to learn from...Instead he had Bobby Hart. Flowers was OVER DRAFTED and thrust into a position that he wasn't suited for. It's up to the team to evaluate your best position and they obviously didn't do a good job of sorting out his position.
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Post by Blue Hulk on Jul 27, 2021 21:59:08 GMT -5
Flowers 2020 PFF grade - 65.9 2019 64.1 2018 65.4 Will Hernandez 2020 PFF grade - 58.1 2019 58.4 2018 67.9 Ereck Flowers is better than Will Hernandez yet I don't hear the same unbridled hatred (no reference to you kind sir) for a player that wasn't even drafted to play LT. Because of the failings of the GM, they never thought to move flowers and upgrade the tackle spot. You can't put that on Flowers. He was given a bum deal from the start. EVERYONE knew he was a guard. At what, relocating? Flowers has changed team 4 times in 7 seasons. And each time he played out his contract and was only cut once...for his attitude. He moved around because he bet on himself to make more money with short term deals. Now he has a 3 year $30 million contract with the fins after 6 seasons...so umm..He gets paid more than any of our OL. So that kinda shows that he has value in the NFL AT GUARD... **edit: Being traded back to Washington was in his best interest and his contract remains in tactt. The Young man redeemed himself as far as I'm concerned. Plenty of other guys did not make it as far as Flowers. MIke Remmers looked average in NY, then gets a ring in KC. Don't hate the player, hate the game
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Post by McCherry on Jul 27, 2021 22:13:23 GMT -5
At what, relocating? Flowers has changed team 4 times in 7 seasons. And each time he played out his contract and was only cut once...for his attitude. He moved around because he bet on himself to make more money with short term deals. Now he has a 3 year $30 million contract with the fins after 6 seasons...so umm..He gets paid more than any of our OL. So that kinda shows that he has value in the NFL AT GUARD... **edit: Being traded back to Washington was in his best interest and his contract remains in tactt. The Young man redeemed himself as far as I'm concerned. Plenty of other guys did not make it as far as Flowers. MIke Remmers looked average in NY, then gets a ring in KC. Don't hate the player, hate the game Obviously. That's why he's been sent packing after one season by every team he’s played for since leaving here.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2021 6:56:01 GMT -5
It was the correct decision to move on from Flowers and it's not surprising that he's been a better Guard in this league then Hernandez..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2021 7:47:27 GMT -5
flowers still isn't that good but he is average to below average he will always have a job. Flowers 2020 PFF grade - 65.9 2019 64.1 2018 65.4 Will Hernandez 2020 PFF grade - 58.1 2019 58.4 2018 67.9 Ereck Flowers is better than Will Hernandez yet I don't hear the same unbridled hatred (no reference to you kind sir) for a player that wasn't even drafted to play LT. Because of the failings of the GM, they never thought to move flowers and upgrade the tackle spot. You can't put that on Flowers. He was given a bum deal from the start. EVERYONE knew he was a guard. Same thing happened with Leonard Davis in Cardinal land...it was weekly questioned..."why is Davis not tried at guard"...answered with... he is being paid like a tackle, he will play tackle. Went to the Cowboys and made the probowl....playing guard. That nano second lacked in foot speed is all it takes to make a failure at one blocking spot...and thrive at another.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Jul 28, 2021 10:03:12 GMT -5
All true. We sill have to have faith in the HC to the job that he was hired for. Not with the line. His musical chairs routine, and this being his third offensive line coach in under a year leaves me with more questions than answers. Pat Flaherty is a good start, but will Judge stick his nose in their business again if the line doesn’t play up to his expectations? Last year with Judge and Columbo getting into it plus bringing in the other guy we had 3 OL coaches in 3 weeks including Judge. The line was a mess and then the coaching carousel what a cluster. But I don't know what happened maybe just stablization but by the end of the year the improvement was like night and day. I do remember reading that they let Andrews go back to doing what he did in college and apparently it worked. I do like if true all this one on one attention the OL is getting. Everyone should know their assignments and what to do on blitzes. Now they need snaps together.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Jul 28, 2021 10:13:25 GMT -5
flowers still isn't that good but he is average to below average he will always have a job. Flowers 2020 PFF grade - 65.9 2019 64.1 2018 65.4 Will Hernandez 2020 PFF grade - 58.1 2019 58.4 2018 67.9 Ereck Flowers is better than Will Hernandez yet I don't hear the same unbridled hatred (no reference to you kind sir) for a player that wasn't even drafted to play LT. Because of the failings of the GM, they never thought to move flowers and upgrade the tackle spot. You can't put that on Flowers. He was given a bum deal from the start. EVERYONE knew he was a guard. There is credence to this. There were a lot of things that went wrong with the Flowers pick right from drafting him at I believe #9 the football world knew it was a reach. The injury to Beatty and Flowers gets thrown in there. And Flowers played tough with an injury his rookie year but Oh God he was such a weak link and his mind had to be blown up from the media and the fans.
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Post by Kruunch on Jul 28, 2021 15:34:37 GMT -5
How was he giving a bum deal? He was paid millions of dollars to fall on his face every Sunday. On top of that, he had issues with two highly respected offensive line coaches. Ereck was a pansy here, and worked his way up to a daffodil. Also, being better than Hernandez is no accomplishment. A bum deal is not being put in a situation to succeed. Saquon Barkley was given a bum deal being drafted #2 with a shaky OL. If Will Beatty didn't get injured, Flowers would have started at RT and had a vet to learn from...Instead he had Bobby Hart. Flowers was OVER DRAFTED and thrust into a position that he wasn't suited for. It's up to the team to evaluate your best position and they obviously didn't do a good job of sorting out his position. The Giants have egg on their face with Flowers. However, Ereck didn’t do himself any favors. The kid was the media punching bag his whole time here. And instead of handling it like a pro. He acted like a jilted school girl who found out she flunked home economics.
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Post by nick030567 on Jul 28, 2021 22:19:16 GMT -5
flowers still isn't that good but he is average to below average he will always have a job. Flowers 2020 PFF grade - 65.9 2019 64.1 2018 65.4 Will Hernandez 2020 PFF grade - 58.1 2019 58.4 2018 67.9 Ereck Flowers is better than Will Hernandez yet I don't hear the same unbridled hatred (no reference to you kind sir) for a player that wasn't even drafted to play LT. Because of the failings of the GM, they never thought to move flowers and upgrade the tackle spot. You can't put that on Flowers. He was given a bum deal from the start. EVERYONE knew he was a guard. I remember being told not to question the "experts" and that if he was gonna be any good at guard all the giants coaches would know better....lol looks like some of us fans knew better on that one. Was obvious. His frame, agility and motor skills all scream starting guard, not tackle. I just never understood why they didn't even attempt this in preseason (especially his last couple season with the NYG)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2021 6:19:41 GMT -5
Flowers 2020 PFF grade - 65.9 2019 64.1 2018 65.4 Will Hernandez 2020 PFF grade - 58.1 2019 58.4 2018 67.9 Ereck Flowers is better than Will Hernandez yet I don't hear the same unbridled hatred (no reference to you kind sir) for a player that wasn't even drafted to play LT. Because of the failings of the GM, they never thought to move flowers and upgrade the tackle spot. You can't put that on Flowers. He was given a bum deal from the start. EVERYONE knew he was a guard. I remember being told not to question the "experts" and that if he was gonna be any good at guard all the giants coaches would know better....lol looks like some of us fans knew better on that one. Was obvious. His frame, agility and motor skills all scream starting guard, not tackle. I just never understood why they didn't even attempt this in preseason (especially his last couple season with the NYG) A lot of questionable decisions with how he was handled which ultimately made him a locker room problem.. I can't say I've followed how he's been playing elsewhere and when I see Hart also still getting contracts you have wonder just how bad this organization has been handling these players..
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Post by Jomo on Jul 30, 2021 13:41:29 GMT -5
I am happy about the emphasis on coaching.......it counts for alot. It doesn't leave me excited however. What I need to hear is more about the beastly progress certain players made last year and how their work in minicamps point to an emerging yourn and talented group.
Stated differently, coaching (though necessary) only can take us so far. I also need to hear about the underlying talent.
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Post by jb456 on Jul 30, 2021 14:02:21 GMT -5
It was the correct decision to move on from Flowers and it's not surprising that he's been a better Guard in this league then Hernandez.. Correct and only decision. You don't pay a top 10 draft to be a converted to guard. Also, it took a while and several team changes for Flowers to become a serviceable guard. There were plenty of people on this board, including myself, who wanted to see Flowers converted to guard. Flower's paycheck prevented that from happening and I 100% understand.
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Post by PennState1 on Jul 31, 2021 17:22:17 GMT -5
Personally, if I never hear the phrase "The NY Giants Offensive line" ever again unless it's to say how great they are, I will die happy. OMG you have no idea how much I agree with you
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Post by FundamentallySoundJones on Jul 31, 2021 17:22:55 GMT -5
Yeah ok. I take it he wants 2022 off.
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Post by PennState1 on Jul 31, 2021 17:24:57 GMT -5
You guys are talking about the player whose name shall never be said again. It was just some panic 1st round pick better forever forgotten
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Post by Jomo on Aug 1, 2021 9:05:35 GMT -5
I think we swung and largely missed with both Flowers and Hernandez.
What some may be missing here is that Flowers has been in the league 3 years longer than Hernandez and as such we should compare 5th year numbers on both of them to get a clearer comparison.
Stated differently, Hernandez has more time to improve vs Flowers. Not counting on it but 3 years is a lot of development time in the NFL.
The other reason that Flowers gets pounded harder is the place he was drafted and the position he played.
1st round vs 2nd and LT vs LG are worlds apart.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 1, 2021 9:17:52 GMT -5
Judge better have confidence in the OL. Otherwise the draft would have had a different outcome.
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Post by McCherry on Aug 1, 2021 9:25:14 GMT -5
It was the correct decision to move on from Flowers and it's not surprising that he's been a better Guard in this league then Hernandez.. Correct and only decision. You don't pay a top 10 draft to be a converted to guard. Also, it took a while and several team changes for Flowers to become a serviceable guard. There were plenty of people on this board, including myself, who wanted to see Flowers converted to guard. Flower's paycheck prevented that from happening and I 100% understand. There was more to it than that. Flowers comes with locker room issues since his college days. He hasn't lasted more than one season with any team since leaving NY. He can play G a little, but clearly not the guy teams want to build anything with. A career journeyman at this point.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Aug 1, 2021 9:48:48 GMT -5
This OL needs to earn respect from defenses and fans alike. They can't prove anything till we start playing and having contact. We'll see a glimpse in pre season. but they better be ready to hit the ground running come game 1 vs Denver.
We play a lot of tough defenses this season our OL has their work cut out for them. If this OL can run block and we can actually move the ball on the ground our pass blocking will benefit as well. Especially on play fakes. Just show me how tough this line is and they can actually give Jones some time to throw.
Then I too will have confidence like Judge.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 1, 2021 11:01:47 GMT -5
why the hell are we even debating on Flowers still? He was ok as rookie and showed he could play injured. His following year he showed he stinks as a tackle. He also showed he didnt like to be coached up. He is still in the NFL....BFD. Doesnt make him good and it doesnt make the decision to jettison him wrong.
How many teams has been on now?
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Post by jb456 on Aug 1, 2021 14:43:00 GMT -5
Correct and only decision. You don't pay a top 10 draft to be a converted to guard. Also, it took a while and several team changes for Flowers to become a serviceable guard. There were plenty of people on this board, including myself, who wanted to see Flowers converted to guard. Flower's paycheck prevented that from happening and I 100% understand. There was more to it than that. Flowers comes with locker room issues since his college days. He hasn't lasted more than one season with any team since leaving NY. He can play G a little, but clearly not the guy teams want to build anything with. A career journeyman at this point. Yeah, im not going to say you are.wrong but even if he was 100 percent team first, it would have still been a project. Not many teams would pay a top 10 player to be a project.
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