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Post by TEM on Jun 11, 2022 10:04:12 GMT -5
After comparing data of 19 HCs that call their own Offensive plays. All have called offensive plays within the past 6 years.
Their combined winning percentage did not surprise me. 538% . Basically 500% (rounded) . That is no different than the winning percentage of the average OC calling the plays.
I can provide the data for anyone interested.
There is no evidence to support if it is a positive or a negative for the outcome of any given season.
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Post by ratbastich on Jun 11, 2022 10:14:46 GMT -5
After comparing data of 19 HCs that call their own Offensive plays. All have called offensive plays within the past 6 years. Their combined winning percentage did not surprise me. 538% . Basically 500% (rounded) . That is no different than the winning percentage of the average OC calling the plays. I can provide the data for anyone interested. There is no evidence to support if it is a positive or a negative for the outcome of any given season. Not fighting against what you are saying but what is the winning percentage of first year coaches calling plays v. experienced coaches calling plays? Probably not able to gather that because factors such as guys giving up play calling eventually and guys who still kept it would probably come in to play as well is what I am thinking and would have to be done over a period of time. Might be too much to try to gather.
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Post by TEM on Jun 11, 2022 10:24:27 GMT -5
After comparing data of 19 HCs that call their own Offensive plays. All have called offensive plays within the past 6 years. Their combined winning percentage did not surprise me. 538% . Basically 500% (rounded) . That is no different than the winning percentage of the average OC calling the plays. I can provide the data for anyone interested. There is no evidence to support if it is a positive or a negative for the outcome of any given season. Not fighting against what you are saying but what is the winning percentage of first year coaches calling plays v. experienced coaches calling plays? Probably not able to gather that because factors such as guys giving up play calling eventually and guys who still kept it would probably come in to play as well is what I am thinking and would have to be done over a period of time. Might be too much to try to gather. Nick Sirianni 529% this past year Arthur Smith was 412% this year Really no different than a first year OC the first year HC has.
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Post by Jomo on Jun 11, 2022 13:05:33 GMT -5
Is there any reason Daboll should not call the offense plays? If that is what he is used to doing and that is what he is known for why take chances? It is a classic trap for a person in a new job wanting to stay close to what he is familiar with at from his last job. If he's serious about being HC, he should find people to take care of critical functions (like play calling) so that he can focus on his new responsibilities.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 16, 2022 17:09:51 GMT -5
yeah..because a rookie HC needs to see the whole game and not just the offense. I say he shouldnt One of the reasons I was high on Judge was because I felt he would be overseeing all aspects during the games but that obviously doesn’t make you a good in-game coach. As long as Daboll has everything in place to allow him to manage the game properly, I don’t care either way. I liken it to coordinators on the field or in the booth. Which is better?
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Post by GameTime on Jun 17, 2022 4:59:01 GMT -5
yeah..because a rookie HC needs to see the whole game and not just the offense. I say he shouldnt One of the reasons I was high on Judge was because I felt he would be overseeing all aspects during the games but that obviously doesn’t make you a good in-game coach. As long as Daboll has everything in place to allow him to manage the game properly, I don’t care either way. I liken it to coordinators on the field or in the booth. Which is better? good points there Rosie. A good HC is a good HC no matter what. Daboll has to find what grooves fits he and his staff. Teams def have eyes in the booth. Whether a coordinator or a assistant. Its a great perspective of the game.
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Post by Fletch842 on Jun 17, 2022 5:59:28 GMT -5
One of the reasons I was high on Judge was because I felt he would be overseeing all aspects during the games but that obviously doesn’t make you a good in-game coach. As long as Daboll has everything in place to allow him to manage the game properly, I don’t care either way. I liken it to coordinators on the field or in the booth. Which is better? good points there Rosie. A good HC is a good HC no matter what. Daboll has to find what grooves fits he and his staff. Teams def have eyes in the booth. Whether a coordinator or a assistant. Its a great perspective of the game. Just shows there is no one perfect process. It really does all revolve around those involved. The analogy of coordinators in the field or booth is a very good one.
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Post by jimmieray on Jun 17, 2022 8:35:38 GMT -5
I dont think theres any way for us to know either way honestly, Im just gona go with the flow of the team and hope its not a trainwreck. Another time id say, oh leave the offense up to the coordinator and let the hc run the whole team, but the giants have shown me the last few years that what i think is down is up, and what is right is wrong, and etc etc... I will say, if daboll and schoen turn out to be a failure, then good lord put a fork in it, I dont know what else to save this team. really liking daboll in his pressers, and watching him is reinforcing to me that man judge really fooled me year one, daboll is nothing like him thank the gods. I'm not up on all our team's recent GM / HCs' level of success / failure along their careers, and how the teams they had positions with fared during their tenures there. I think maybe Reese, Gettleman, McAdoo, and Judge came on board with previous teams that were already quite competitive, and their roles there may not have been so significant. I'm pretty sure that the Bills were cellar dwellers (with company), when Schoen and Daboll first got there - so I'd like to think that they were key players in their rise. Am I in fantasy land, or does something hold water, here?
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Post by Martin on Jun 17, 2022 10:24:38 GMT -5
A first year HC calling his own plays may or may not be a problem. The thing is this team has been a train wreck so one would hope that the HC has his head in all areas of need. I personally see a risk in it but until I am proven wrong lets see if the team improves and starts winning some games.
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Post by ocgiant on Jun 17, 2022 10:32:36 GMT -5
If you are going to have the HC call the offense, why have an OC in the first place?
Never a fan of the HC calling the plays, let the OC do their job especially with the offensive merry go round this team has been through the last few years
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Post by kerryisdaman on Jun 17, 2022 10:40:35 GMT -5
If you are going to have the HC call the offense, why have an OC in the first place? Never a fan of the HC calling the plays, let the OC do their job especially with the offensive merry go round this team has been through the last few years I like having somebody up high so they can get a different view of the game. As far as who calls the plays I think both will have input but the main play caller has not been decided yet. We know Daboll has called played previously. Did Kafka ever call the plays for KC?
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Post by ocgiant on Jun 17, 2022 20:07:11 GMT -5
If you are going to have the HC call the offense, why have an OC in the first place? Never a fan of the HC calling the plays, let the OC do their job especially with the offensive merry go round this team has been through the last few years I like having somebody up high so they can get a different view of the game. As far as who calls the plays I think both will have input but the main play caller has not been decided yet. We know Daboll has called played previously. Did Kafka ever call the plays for KC? Good points, nothing wrong with the shared input or something that the HC sees (thier perogitive too) but I still like the OC to have the ability to call the game once it starts so there is cadence to the game. No doubt we'll find out soon enough!
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 18, 2022 8:16:46 GMT -5
If you are going to have the HC call the offense, why have an OC in the first place? Never a fan of the HC calling the plays, let the OC do their job especially with the offensive merry go round this team has been through the last few years I like having somebody up high so they can get a different view of the game. As far as who calls the plays I think both will have input but the main play caller has not been decided yet. We know Daboll has called played previously. Did Kafka ever call the plays for KC? All teams have someone upstairs... I honestly don't know if you can call the plays from up there though
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Post by jimmieray on Jun 18, 2022 8:45:42 GMT -5
I like having somebody up high so they can get a different view of the game. As far as who calls the plays I think both will have input but the main play caller has not been decided yet. We know Daboll has called played previously. Did Kafka ever call the plays for KC? All teams have someone upstairs... I honestly don't know if you can call the plays from up there though I think I've heard an announcer point out a team's OC calling from a booth once or twice. It was many years ago though, when the announcers were generally more interesting and not every single stoppage of action led to a commercial break.
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Post by Kruunch on Jun 18, 2022 8:50:16 GMT -5
Everyone wants to be Andy Reid. Unfortunately, Reid is one of the rare coaches who can call a game and still be the general on the sidelines. Daboll has to swallow his pride, and let Kafka call the game. He can still be involved in the play calling, but his main priority should be the overall game.
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Post by Roswell on Jun 18, 2022 9:09:12 GMT -5
Everyone wants to be Andy Reid. Unfortunately, Reid is one of the rare coaches who can call a game and still be the general on the sidelines. Daboll has to swallow his pride, and let Kafka call the game. He can still be involved in the play calling, but his main priority should be the overall game. I agree. I know Belichick has had a DC all these years but I don't think BB makes the in game defensive calls. And if he doesn't, then probably no HC should on their side of expertise. Daboll should decide on the offensive game plan and let Kafka make the in game calls.
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Post by Jomo on Jun 18, 2022 10:12:24 GMT -5
Everyone wants to be Andy Reid. Unfortunately, Reid is one of the rare coaches who can call a game and still be the general on the sidelines. Daboll has to swallow his pride, and let Kafka call the game. He can still be involved in the play calling, but his main priority should be the overall game. I agree. I know Belichick has had a DC all these years but I don't think BB makes the in game defensive calls. And if he doesn't, then probably no HC should on their side of expertise. Daboll should decide on the offensive game plan and let Kafka make the in game calls. Daboll needs to focus all his energy on his new job and new responsibilities without hanging on to things others can/should do. If he doesn't have that guy, Mara needs to open his check book and bring that guy in. Like I said earlier, it is a trap to hang on to things that are familiar during a job transition. In 5 years, if he turns into Andy Reed, he can revisit this idea.
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Post by giants8493 on Jun 28, 2022 7:23:09 GMT -5
I want him to have a staff where he feels the offensive playcaller is doing a fantastic job and he doesn't need to think about it. If he doesn't feel that way in short order, I want him to do what he feels is necessary, and if taking playcalling is the thing, then do it. Wouldn't they have discussed Kafka's exact role, during the interviews? nah I think for game plan tendency purposes they don't want the rivals to begin planning for daboll play calling vs Kafka okay calling.
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Post by jimmieray on Jun 28, 2022 7:26:48 GMT -5
Wouldn't they have discussed Kafka's exact role, during the interviews? nah I think for game plan tendency purposes they don't want the rivals to begin planning for daboll play calling vs Kafka okay calling. I don't imagine our team's rivals have bugs planted in the F.O., but it's nice to hear that they now have some little concerns about the Giant's offensive capabilities.
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Post by nick030567 on Jun 28, 2022 8:01:31 GMT -5
All I know is that both Shurmur and Mac were terrible play callers as HC. Actually, Shurmur called some good games, in the second half of 2018 when he stopped with the dink and dunk and started letting Eli do what he does best (throw intermediate and deep).
Shurmur showed glimpses of being decent at it but overall he did a lot of illogical things.
Remember him thinking the problem was Barkley and not the OL?? Started running him up the gut EVERY SINGLE TIME he ran the ball (second half of 2019-probably got him fired along with team quitting).
I think Shurmur kinda ****ed with Barkley's confidence as much as the poor OL, he hasn't been right since that season. In 2018 he played like Penn State Barkley. In 2019 he started missing assignments, playing with little fire or confidence.
If Daboll can be HC, oversee all operations, and call a BALANCED and unpredictable game plan that plays to his guys strengths, then I'm all for it!
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Post by Blue Hulk on Jun 28, 2022 12:29:23 GMT -5
I would like him to call the first year and then ease Kafka into it. Let Kafka call pre-season and see how the offense does. If he screws the pooch then he waits a season to call plays again....or wait until Buffalo fires their OC....
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Post by Blue Hulk on Jun 28, 2022 12:30:43 GMT -5
All I know is that both Shurmur and Mac were terrible play callers as HC. Actually, Shurmur called some good games, in the second half of 2018 when he stopped with the dink and dunk and started letting Eli do what he does best (throw intermediate and deep). Shurmur showed glimpses of being decent at it but overall he did a lot of illogical things. Remember him thinking the problem was Barkley and not the OL?? Started running him up the gut EVERY SINGLE TIME he ran the ball (second half of 2019-probably got him fired along with team quitting). I think Shurmur kinda ****ed with Barkley's confidence as much as the poor OL, he hasn't been right since that season. In 2018 he played like Penn State Barkley. In 2019 he started missing assignments, playing with little fire or confidence. If Daboll can be HC, oversee all operations, and call a BALANCED and unpredictable game plan that plays to his guys strengths, then I'm all for it! Shurmur called good plays on offense. He called a great game against us last season..... McAdoodoo called good games as OC....things got funky when he became coach and had too much other stuff to worry about. Now he's back to OC for a reason. He was really good.
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Post by giants8493 on Jun 28, 2022 17:47:10 GMT -5
nah I think for game plan tendency purposes they don't want the rivals to begin planning for daboll play calling vs Kafka okay calling. I don't imagine our team's rivals have bugs planted in the F.O., but it's nice to hear that they now have some little concerns about the Giant's offensive capabilities. you don't need a bug if they straight up announce it. It's possible they are going to be very coy about it until after week one
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Post by jimmieray on Jun 29, 2022 6:35:26 GMT -5
I don't imagine our team's rivals have bugs planted in the F.O., but it's nice to hear that they now have some little concerns about the Giant's offensive capabilities. you don't need a bug if they straight up announce it. It's possible they are going to be very coy about it until after week one I was just talking about what was discussed in the interviews, with Kafka and Daboll. Wouldn't they have wanted to clarify to them, what their responsibilities would be? Wouldn't Kafka want assurance he would be given a prominant role, to lure him from a very good spot where he already was?
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Post by giants8493 on Jun 30, 2022 18:56:48 GMT -5
you don't need a bug if they straight up announce it. It's possible they are going to be very coy about it until after week one I was just talking about what was discussed in the interviews, with Kafka and Daboll. Wouldn't they have wanted to clarify to them, what their responsibilities would be? Wouldn't Kafka want assurance he would be given a prominant role, to lure him from a very good spot where he already was? sure but they are unlikely to externally release they information
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Post by kerryisdaman on Jun 30, 2022 21:30:19 GMT -5
you don't need a bug if they straight up announce it. It's possible they are going to be very coy about it until after week one I was just talking about what was discussed in the interviews, with Kafka and Daboll. Wouldn't they have wanted to clarify to them, what their responsibilities would be? Wouldn't Kafka want assurance he would be given a prominant role, to lure him from a very good spot where he already was? Discussed? Sure. Decided? Doubtful. All our new guys came for promotions including Kafka. He has never been am OC before. He was a QB coach.
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Post by jimmieray on Jul 1, 2022 8:20:51 GMT -5
I was just talking about what was discussed in the interviews, with Kafka and Daboll. Wouldn't they have wanted to clarify to them, what their responsibilities would be? Wouldn't Kafka want assurance he would be given a prominant role, to lure him from a very good spot where he already was? Discussed? Sure. Decided? Doubtful. All our new guys came for promotions including Kafka. He has never been am OC before. He was a QB coach. I wasn't sure what his role was, but knew it was likely that the OC he coached under was likely going to get a HC offer sometime soon. And of course that team looked to be set for quite some time. It was probably a tough decision, to leave the Chiefs at this time.
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Post by GameTime on Jul 1, 2022 8:40:43 GMT -5
what is more important than play calling is game plan, coaching and PLAYER EXECUTION!!
Every play is drawn up to actually work....right?
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Post by nick030567 on Jul 1, 2022 9:47:19 GMT -5
All I know is that both Shurmur and Mac were terrible play callers as HC. Actually, Shurmur called some good games, in the second half of 2018 when he stopped with the dink and dunk and started letting Eli do what he does best (throw intermediate and deep). Shurmur showed glimpses of being decent at it but overall he did a lot of illogical things. Remember him thinking the problem was Barkley and not the OL?? Started running him up the gut EVERY SINGLE TIME he ran the ball (second half of 2019-probably got him fired along with team quitting). I think Shurmur kinda ****ed with Barkley's confidence as much as the poor OL, he hasn't been right since that season. In 2018 he played like Penn State Barkley. In 2019 he started missing assignments, playing with little fire or confidence. If Daboll can be HC, oversee all operations, and call a BALANCED and unpredictable game plan that plays to his guys strengths, then I'm all for it! Shurmur called good plays on offense. He called a great game against us last season..... McAdoodoo called good games as OC....things got funky when he became coach and had too much other stuff to worry about. Now he's back to OC for a reason. He was really good. Well that's what I'm saying. Essentially, there was no consistency or identity. At times Shurmur called fantastic games where the defense was kept guessing. But I think Judge and the covid situation caused people to forget just how bad things were with Shurmur towards the end of 2019..I feel like there is some revisionist history because Jones played better in that system than the 1995 based Jason Garrett system.. He absolutely called some horribly predictable games similar to Jason Garrett. I loved Shurmur in Minnesota, but he coached like he had zero confidence in his NYG players. Big mistake, that can cost you some important player development. Can't be afraid to suck when you already do, It's a losing mentality
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Post by kerryisdaman on Jul 1, 2022 10:56:55 GMT -5
Shurmur called good plays on offense. He called a great game against us last season..... McAdoodoo called good games as OC....things got funky when he became coach and had too much other stuff to worry about. Now he's back to OC for a reason. He was really good. Well that's what I'm saying. Essentially, there was no consistency or identity. At times Shurmur called fantastic games where the defense was kept guessing. But I think Judge and the covid situation caused people to forget just how bad things were with Shurmur towards the end of 2019..I feel like there is some revisionist history because Jones played better in that system than the 1995 based Jason Garrett system.. He absolutely called some horribly predictable games similar to Jason Garrett. I loved Shurmur in Minnesota, but he coached like he had zero confidence in his NYG players. Big mistake, that can cost you some important player development. Can't be afraid to suck when you already do, It's a losing mentality In their defense its hard to call plays when you have no faith that your line can block for over 2.5 seconds.
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