Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 20:02:07 GMT -5
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Post by bringsimmsback on Oct 9, 2018 20:13:08 GMT -5
They're not getting any "push" in other words. They seemed to be doing better at this in the preseason which was one reason I had hope our run game would improve.
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yoho
Special Teams
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Post by yoho on Oct 9, 2018 21:32:10 GMT -5
So, if Baldy is seeing this, our O-line coach and Shurmur (since he was a center himself), must be seeing this, therefore it seems to me it could be corrected, versus a plain lack of talent or size or strength. It appears to be technique between two guys, which should get better. They need to pick up blisters, and get better technique with there adjacent fellow linemen. Seems doable with practice. This was not a berteran line that had worked together previously. It’s a brand new line. By the end of the season they should be improved. Did we really expect them to gel in five or six games? This is a rebuilding year, no matter what they tell the media, or what people perceive by not drafting a QB.
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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 9, 2018 23:07:38 GMT -5
So, if Baldy is seeing this, our O-line coach and Shurmur (since he was a center himself), must be seeing this, therefore it seems to me it could be corrected, versus a plain lack of talent or size or strength. It appears to be technique between two guys, which should get better. They need to pick up blisters, and get better technique with there adjacent fellow linemen. Seems doable with practice. This was not a berteran line that had worked together previously. It’s a brand new line. By the end of the season they should be improved. Did we really expect them to gel in five or six games? This is a rebuilding year, no matter what they tell the media, or what people perceive by not drafting a QB. The team is a year away from being possibly the most frightening offense in the league if they can get another beast in the interior or 2(or maybe they have one with Evan Brown)Carolina did a lot of what is called "snatch blitzing" (a concept Spags actually came up with in the 2nd half of the playoff game vs Dallas when he had someone blitz the running back every play whether it was run or pass,if it was a pass he blitzed the back to occupy him while the actual pass rusher could get in,and also took the back out of the passing game,remember the backs were the ones killing us in the 1stvhalf of that game)against Barkley and they were getting to him in the backfield in tbe running game,which was exploited in the 2nd half by Eli with RPO and when the Panthers blitzed Barkley it opened up all the space Beckham and Sheppard were able to hit on those slants. Personally I think the line is improving little by little and eventually when teams go to the 2 deep zone there will be enough push up front to get Barkley an easy 5 to 7 yards a pop and then some. |
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Post by jintslifer1 on Oct 10, 2018 5:03:21 GMT -5
Omameh is just useless. Let’s face it. He’s a big marshmallow
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Post by IrishMike on Oct 10, 2018 6:05:00 GMT -5
That's a pretty simplistic way to look at things IMO. Yes we did not gain a ton of yards on the ground, but in the second half when we were scoring it had a lot to do with attempting to run and the threat of Barkley being able to break anyone of these runs for a big game meant that the D had to play honest football. The goal of the run game is three fold. 1) Gain yards, 2) wear down the D and 3) keep the D honest so they can't just focus on the pass.
It really irks me when people try to skew stats to fit their agenda. Yes Barkley had 1 run for 30 yards, so lets remove that from the runs and just average the other runs. Well ok lets remove the Eli Manning 2 yard run also, it didn't gain a ton of yards but on 4th down it gave us a 1st.
Baldy is 100% right though they get no dam push. Barkley was getting hit behind the line all day long.
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Post by lawrencetaylor56hof on Oct 10, 2018 6:17:28 GMT -5
The problems on the right side are Wheeler is not strong enough to move defenders and Omameh doesn’t know how to double. He’s putting his finger on the guys he’s assigned to help block and rushing to go hit the LB.
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Post by GameTime on Oct 10, 2018 6:26:49 GMT -5
Just watch the game. If you need Brian Baldinger to convince you that more times than not SB has no where to run then you really arent watching the games.
The O is too inconsistent. They showed some good stuff last game. maybe its a stepping stone or maybe its just them being inconsistent.
we shall see.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Oct 10, 2018 6:27:02 GMT -5
Its pretty crazy, but this is exactly what happened at Penn St.
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Post by lawrencetaylor56hof on Oct 10, 2018 6:33:04 GMT -5
They need to stop doing these traditional run plays. 10/15 for 1 or less. It’s putting us in terrible down and distances. Throw the football and mix in some draws and traps. Put him in the slot and have him come run a jet sweep which I heard they practiced all summer and I haven’t seen much of it at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 6:34:23 GMT -5
That's a pretty simplistic way to look at things IMO. Yes we did not gain a ton of yards on the ground, but in the second half when we were scoring it had a lot to do with attempting to run and the threat of Barkley being able to break anyone of these runs for a big game meant that the D had to play honest football. The goal of the run game is three fold. 1) Gain yards, 2) wear down the D and 3) keep the D honest so they can't just focus on the pass. It really irks me when people try to skew stats to fit their agenda. Yes Barkley had 1 run for 30 yards, so lets remove that from the runs and just average the other runs. Well ok lets remove the Eli Manning 2 yard run also, it didn't gain a ton of yards but on 4th down it gave us a 1st. Baldy is 100% right though they get no dam push. Barkley was getting hit behind the line all day long. Correct. The problems are no excuse to abandon it. Not many teams are able to consistently churn out yards on the ground. The teams that are, are usually among the leagues best. It’s just how running the ball works. Eventually hose defenders get tired of taking helmets to the gut and that’s when you break one. Plus you can’t have a D knowing you won’t run it and that the only place they have to deal with Saquon is out in the flat. I still think a better OL would be Pulley and C and Greco and RG with Omameh on the bench but we’re ublikely to see anymore changes unless there are injuries. So at this point it’s just on them realizing what they need to do. A lot of this is still technique/communication related. |
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Post by TCHOF on Oct 10, 2018 6:36:02 GMT -5
So, if Baldy is seeing this, our O-line coach and Shurmur (since he was a center himself), must be seeing this, therefore it seems to me it could be corrected, versus a plain lack of talent or size or strength. It appears to be technique between two guys, which should get better. They need to pick up blisters, and get better technique with there adjacent fellow linemen. Seems doable with practice. This was not a berteran line that had worked together previously. It’s a brand new line. By the end of the season they should be improved. Did we really expect them to gel in five or six games? This is a rebuilding year, no matter what they tell the media, or what people perceive by not drafting a QB. It’s talent - omameh and wheeler just aren’t good |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 7:07:41 GMT -5
Pitch the damn ball to Barkley OUTSIDE the tackles. Stop having Barkley come to Eli behind the center, it's idiotic.
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Post by DandyDon on Oct 10, 2018 8:02:27 GMT -5
So, if Baldy is seeing this, our O-line coach and Shurmur (since he was a center himself), must be seeing this, therefore it seems to me it could be corrected, versus a plain lack of talent or size or strength. It appears to be technique between two guys, which should get better. They need to pick up blisters, and get better technique with there adjacent fellow linemen. Seems doable with practice. This was not a berteran line that had worked together previously. It’s a brand new line. By the end of the season they should be improved. Did we really expect them to gel in five or six games? This is a rebuilding year, no matter what they tell the media, or what people perceive by not drafting a QB. It’s talent - omameh and wheeler just aren’t good True, but there is still room for improvement in technique. There is also room for some innovation in playcalling - if you know the right side is marginal, scheme around it? |
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Post by repeatchamps on Oct 10, 2018 10:13:40 GMT -5
That's a pretty simplistic way to look at things IMO. Yes we did not gain a ton of yards on the ground, but in the second half when we were scoring it had a lot to do with attempting to run and the threat of Barkley being able to break anyone of these runs for a big game meant that the D had to play honest football. The goal of the run game is three fold. 1) Gain yards, 2) wear down the D and 3) keep the D honest so they can't just focus on the pass. It really irks me when people try to skew stats to fit their agenda. Yes Barkley had 1 run for 30 yards, so lets remove that from the runs and just average the other runs. Well ok lets remove the Eli Manning 2 yard run also, it didn't gain a ton of yards but on 4th down it gave us a 1st. Baldy is 100% right though they get no dam push. Barkley was getting hit behind the line all day long. Correct. The problems are no excuse to abandon it. Not many teams are able to consistently churn out yards on the ground. The teams that are, are usually among the leagues best. It’s just how running the ball works. Eventually hose defenders get tired of taking helmets to the gut and that’s when you break one. Plus you can’t have a D knowing you won’t run it and that the only place they have to deal with Saquon is out in the flat. I still think a better OL would be Pulley and C and Greco and RG with Omameh on the bench but we’re ublikely to see anymore changes unless there are injuries. So at this point it’s just on them realizing what they need to do. A lot of this is still technique/communication related. Since they brought in Pulley, I was hoping they'd at least give him a chance once he was familiar with the blocking schemes. Greco has played well at center but he truly is a Guard. You are likely correct that no further changes will be made barring injuries, but the benching and eventual release of Flowers is more than previous regimes were willing to do in-season and that applies to other players besides Flowers who underperformed.
I think if in-game run production continues to be poor and they see some things from other guys in practice and are confident the depth guys are grasping the schemes more changes are still possible at the guard positions and center.
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Post by IrishMike on Oct 10, 2018 10:46:51 GMT -5
Correct. The problems are no excuse to abandon it. Not many teams are able to consistently churn out yards on the ground. The teams that are, are usually among the leagues best. It’s just how running the ball works. Eventually hose defenders get tired of taking helmets to the gut and that’s when you break one. Plus you can’t have a D knowing you won’t run it and that the only place they have to deal with Saquon is out in the flat. I still think a better OL would be Pulley and C and Greco and RG with Omameh on the bench but we’re ublikely to see anymore changes unless there are injuries. So at this point it’s just on them realizing what they need to do. A lot of this is still technique/communication related. Yep. It is not a coincidence that our scoring drives this season usually involve at least trying to run with Barkley a few times. Barkley and ODB are such huge threats that anytime one gets the ball the other team has to swarm over there. One little mistake and they get a big gain. Just keep pounding the runs, even if they are not working every time.
I didn't hear anyone say McCaffrey had 1 run for 14 yards, that means his other 16 runs only went for 2.75 yards per carry. The fact is the Panthers keep trying to run which forces teams to be honest and play run and pass each down. That is what we need to keep doing as well. Like I've been saying we were not blown out of any of these games in the first half, we should not abandon the run. I think Shurmur learns from his mistakes though and seems to have corrected this one. It would have been easy to justify giving up the rushing when they were smoking us early on.
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Post by IrishMike on Oct 10, 2018 10:48:13 GMT -5
Pitch the damn ball to Barkley OUTSIDE the tackles. Stop having Barkley come to Eli behind the center, it's idiotic. Anyone see any stats for his inside runs vs outside runs? I haven't seen anything yet, not sure if PFF has that available. I also don't mean the runs he bounces outside, when he can bounce an inside run to the outside he usually goes for big yards. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 10:51:07 GMT -5
They're not getting any "push" in other words. They seemed to be doing better at this in the preseason which was one reason I had hope our run game would improve. That wasn't the starters you were mostly looking at in preseason. Yes, the starters played some, but the backup O lineman were pushing the other teams backup defenses around in the run game. Our starting O line never really showed much in the run game and that has carried over to the regular season. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 10:56:53 GMT -5
I like Pulley and Greco there but I just have a feeling they'll stick to Omemah until the end of year. These guys are big dudes, how can they not get any push?
the only time i see any push is on those QB sneaks.
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Easy E
Special Teams
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Post by Easy E on Oct 10, 2018 11:23:59 GMT -5
This is how it is supposed to look, it has just been inconsistent. If you go back to the Texans game, the oline did execute it well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 11:37:27 GMT -5
Today on the NFL network O'Hara broke down multiple plays where Barkley should've taken the ball up the gut between the tackles but instead bounced it out for 2 yard losses..
That was the concern with him coming out and hopefully his vision will get better and start popping them through those holes!
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Post by GameTime on Oct 10, 2018 11:41:25 GMT -5
Today on the NFL network O'Hara broke down multiple plays where Barkley should've taken the ball up the gut between the tackles but instead bounced it out for 2 yard losses.. That was the concern with him coming out and hopefully his vision will get better and start popping them through those holes! hmmmm...... did you see the film too? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 12:03:27 GMT -5
Today on the NFL network O'Hara broke down multiple plays where Barkley should've taken the ball up the gut between the tackles but instead bounced it out for 2 yard losses.. That was the concern with him coming out and hopefully his vision will get better and start popping them through those holes! hmmmm...... did you see the film too? He would show the play and the big hole that Barkley should've run through. Very much like what Baldinger did the previous week where Eli was checking down his passes and missing the receiver open down field. www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/0ap3000000972368/O-Hara-breaks-down-Saquon-Barkley-vs-Eagles-defense |
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Post by GameTime on Oct 10, 2018 12:15:05 GMT -5
well hopefully his coaches are showing him the same film |
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Post by bringsimmsback on Oct 10, 2018 15:11:56 GMT -5
It didn't seem like any of the runs he showed had "big" holes. It seemed like Ohara's point was more that Barclay has to trust the play more even when the hole isn't there yet. Play may still not go far, but wont be negative. Better run blocking would also solve this problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2018 16:02:37 GMT -5
It didn't seem like any of the runs he showed had "big" holes. It seemed like Ohara's point was more that Barclay has to trust the play more even when the hole isn't there yet. Play may still not go far, but wont be negative. Better run blocking would also solve this problem. A better back with greater vision would also solve this issue. Not sure how big you expect holes to be in the NFL but those were certainly "big" by NFL standards. |
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Post by repeatchamps on Oct 10, 2018 16:25:49 GMT -5
well hopefully his coaches are showing him the same film What we are missing here is what the actual run play design/call was for those particular run plays. It really is dependent on the coaches to explain to Barkley that his decision making does not have to be reliant on the play call if he sees something that could work better with a simple adjustment sometimes.
I sure do hope the coaches are showing Barkley the same film and pointing out the alternative options he had on some of the negative plays O'Hara pointed out.
If I were the coach I'd say, hey I may call the run play type but you can get off the script if your vision tells you there would be a better option based on the blocking you are receiving. It is sort of like a WR option route but just like option routes that approach to the running game has to be coached into the player until they have a feel or even trust to do it.
Vision doesn't have to be just about do you have 20/20 eye sight or not. It is something a RB can improve with more alertness of his surroundings which is very coachable.
All world or not Barkley is a rookie and the inconsistency of the O-line may be causing a lack of patience or even panic. This will change with time and experience running behind this O-line if particularly by some miracle it becomes more consistent (which is unlikely to be any time soon). This applies to all future O-lines that he will run behind in his career.
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Post by bringsimmsback on Oct 10, 2018 16:58:42 GMT -5
It didn't seem like any of the runs he showed had "big" holes. It seemed like Ohara's point was more that Barclay has to trust the play more even when the hole isn't there yet. Play may still not go far, but wont be negative. Better run blocking would also solve this problem. A better back with greater vision would also solve this issue. Not sure how big you expect holes to be in the NFL but those were certainly "big" by NFL standards. In your opinion and you may be correct. It did not seem to me that Ohara was saying that, however. Furthermore, in my opinion, based on watching for a long time, this line isn't giving big holes overall, and the runs highlighted aren't examples of big holes. Anyone else actually watch the clip have an opinion? |
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Post by repeatchamps on Oct 10, 2018 16:59:58 GMT -5
A better back with greater vision would also solve this issue. Not sure how big you expect holes to be in the NFL but those were certainly "big" by NFL standards. In your opinion and you may be correct. It did not seem to me that Ohara was saying that, however. Furthermore, in my opinion, based on watching for a long time, this line isn't giving big holes overall, and the runs highlighted aren't examples of big holes. Anyone else actually watch the clip have an opinion? Yes check my reply just before yours. |
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Post by GameTime on Oct 10, 2018 17:26:30 GMT -5
well hopefully his coaches are showing him the same film What we are missing here is what the actual run play design/call was for those particular run plays. It really is dependent on the coaches to explain to Barkley that his decision making does not have to be reliant on the play call if he sees something that could work better with a simple adjustment sometimes.
I sure do hope the coaches are showing Barkley the same film and pointing out the alternative options he had on some of the negative plays O'Hara pointed out.
If I were the coach I'd say, hey I may call the run play type but you can get off the script if your vision tells you there would be a better option based on the blocking you are receiving. It is sort of like a WR option route but just like option routes that approach to the running game has to be coached into the player until they have a feel or even trust to do it.
Vision doesn't have to be just about do you have 20/20 eye sight or not. It is something a RB can improve with more alertness of his surroundings which is very coachable.
All world or not Barkley is a rookie and the inconsistency of the O-line may be causing a lack of patience or even panic. This will change with time and experience running behind this O-line if particularly by some miracle it becomes more consistent (which is unlikely to be any time soon). This applies to all future O-lines that he will run behind in his career.
so he should use his instincts and vision. Of course plays are designed for a "hole to open here" so to speak but this I have to believe is job one of any RB on most hand offs no? Dont get me wrong I dig the kid and think he is extremely talented but I cant imagine he has to be told this? |
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