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Post by vinnie on Nov 9, 2023 11:11:37 GMT -5
I don’t love any QB in this draft…I don’t think the 1st round QBs would be all that different from the 3rd round QBs. With that said…I wouldn’t mind the Giants trading out of a top 3 pick. Get another 1st and 2nd. We need players. Another mediocre QB won’t help. We already have one. And he’s under contact. Caleb has 30 fumbles in his short college career..The pac 10 isn't known for their defensive prowess. No thank you for him in my opiniom Sadly, I’m starting to lean this way as well. I also haven’t been overwhelmed in the admittedly few games I’ve seen him play plus his personality MAY be a bit iffy. Still haven’t watched Maye play at all, really like Nix skills but injury history makes him a hard pass for me.
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Post by Fletch842 on Nov 9, 2023 11:45:50 GMT -5
Caleb has 30 fumbles in his short college career..The pac 10 isn't known for their defensive prowess. No thank you for him in my opiniom Sadly, I’m starting to lean this way as well. I also haven’t been overwhelmed in the admittedly few games I’ve seen him play plus his personality MAY be a bit iffy. Still haven’t watched Maye play at all, really like Nix skills but injury history makes him a hard pass for me. I think you;re confusing Nix with Penix on the injuries, and perhaps the skills...
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Post by inconvenientruth on Nov 9, 2023 11:51:30 GMT -5
You are way too excited about this Almost as excited as consistently comparing DJ to Tom Brady.
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Post by inconvenientruth on Nov 9, 2023 11:55:26 GMT -5
If the Giants pick #1 I believe the pick is Williams. He has everything you want.
Elite arm, elite ball placement, elite arm talent.
He has things that need work, but massive upside, and already a much better baseline than any QB we have on the roster. Him and Maye are both upper tier prospects that teams will trade up for, and my guess for #1 and #2 regardless which teams slot there
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Post by Nick6475 on Nov 9, 2023 11:59:30 GMT -5
If the Giants pick #1 I believe the pick is Williams. He has everything you want. Elite arm, elite ball placement, elite arm talent. He has things that need work, but massive upside, and already a much better baseline than any QB we have on the roster. Him and Maye are both upper tier prospects that teams will trade up for, and my guess for #1 and #2 regardless which teams slot there What's the difference between an "elite arm" and "elite arm talent"?
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Post by inconvenientruth on Nov 9, 2023 12:01:32 GMT -5
If the Giants pick #1 I believe the pick is Williams. He has everything you want. Elite arm, elite ball placement, elite arm talent. He has things that need work, but massive upside, and already a much better baseline than any QB we have on the roster. Him and Maye are both upper tier prospects that teams will trade up for, and my guess for #1 and #2 regardless which teams slot there What's the difference between an "elite arm" and "elite arm talent"? "Elite arm" is mostly arm strength, the ability to drive the football at all levels of the field (short, intermediate, deep) with velocity. "Elite arm talent" is having the ability to throw the ball from various arm angles, under duress, cross body, etc think Mahomes, Rodgers, etc. Rare for most QBs DJ has an NFL average arm and below average arm talent, for context
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Post by jimmieray on Nov 9, 2023 12:03:55 GMT -5
Sadly, I’m starting to lean this way as well. I also haven’t been overwhelmed in the admittedly few games I’ve seen him play plus his personality MAY be a bit iffy. Still haven’t watched Maye play at all, really like Nix skills but injury history makes him a hard pass for me. I think you;re confusing Nix with Penix on the injuries, and perhaps the skills... His last name is Penix? How is that possible?
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Post by inthezone on Nov 9, 2023 12:07:38 GMT -5
Caleb has 30 fumbles in his short college career..The pac 10 isn't known for their defensive prowess. No thank you for him in my opiniom Sadly, I’m starting to lean this way as well. I also haven’t been overwhelmed in the admittedly few games I’ve seen him play plus his personality MAY be a bit iffy. Still haven’t watched Maye play at all, really like Nix skills but injury history makes him a hard pass for me.What is his injury history? I haven't heard anyone mention it only his age.
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Post by inconvenientruth on Nov 9, 2023 12:16:48 GMT -5
I don’t love any QB in this draft…I don’t think the 1st round QBs would be all that different from the 3rd round QBs. With that said…I wouldn’t mind the Giants trading out of a top 3 pick. Get another 1st and 2nd. We need players. Another mediocre QB won’t help. We already have one. And he’s under contact. This may be how it plays out. I haven’t seen Schoen do something for the sake of doing something without a strategic angle to it. I also don’t doubt that if he loves a QB in this draft, he’s taking one. Overall agree with the fact that you can't force a QB pick. However, finding a real QB is far and away the most important factor to winning games consistently, and making a real run in the playoffs. The WAR stat really conceptualizes a QB's importance to a team. An elite QB can easily win you 3-4 games above an a 'average' replacement. Whereas an elite Edge/OT might give you an extra game relative to an "average" player. For context. Also. With a QB, the GM buys himself time. If he passes on a QB and drafts, say a WR. It does little to increase W's and your seat is suddenly getting a lot hotter. Particularly, after the DJ contract. The question Mara (if he had a brain) would have is "can you actually evaluate QB talent". This class's top end is as good as any i've seen. More work to do, though.
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Post by Nick6475 on Nov 9, 2023 12:17:04 GMT -5
Sadly, I’m starting to lean this way as well. I also haven’t been overwhelmed in the admittedly few games I’ve seen him play plus his personality MAY be a bit iffy. Still haven’t watched Maye play at all, really like Nix skills but injury history makes him a hard pass for me.What is his injury history? I haven't heard anyone mention it only his age. Nix had only one major injury a few years ago. I think Penix has had multiple ACL tears plus some other shoulder injuries I think.
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Post by bavarobeast on Nov 9, 2023 12:37:53 GMT -5
I don’t love any QB in this draft…I don’t think the 1st round QBs would be all that different from the 3rd round QBs. With that said…I wouldn’t mind the Giants trading out of a top 3 pick. Get another 1st and 2nd. We need players. Another mediocre QB won’t help. We already have one. And he’s under contact. Have you thought about stand up comedy? Your comment should qualify for the November out of touch award. Nah…..let’s go with the 2023 award. 🙄
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Nov 9, 2023 12:49:35 GMT -5
I go back and forth with trade to take the QB if Schoen likes his job he has to be thinking if they are here again in a couple years trying to draft a QB he won't be the one making that pick. If they can get their guy with their #1 picking not have to trade the world to get their man, Think they need to consider it strongly. They will have 2 second round picks and their 3rd to bolster the roster. Either way right now I would not complain but I do think from everything I have seen from Jones that last year was an outlier and his health isn't worth the GM and coach risking their jobs over. I hear you and it comes down to Schoen's conviction around one QB or another. Trading for multiple pick is the safer route and more to our greatest need which still is the roster at large. In the end it's Schoen's call to live or die with. Taking a QB puts all his chips on that decision being correct and we all know how hard it is to pick a big time QB regardless of draft position. It will be interesting to watch. That is for sure I wonder if they look at Maye kind of like Josh Allen he is further along but still raw his comparison is more Herbert. It is easy for fans who think they know everything to scream for a QB because of what we read and sometimes see on Saturdays, at the end of the day what you see on Saturday is much different brand of football then what that QB will have to deal with in the NFL. If a GM has conviction he knows more than most being he has access to all the information on the prospect. Gonna be an interesting offseason thats for sure GMs think 3 or 4 years out if there is a better class coming he might decide to wait and trade his way up.
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Post by Nick6475 on Nov 9, 2023 12:56:21 GMT -5
What's the difference between an "elite arm" and "elite arm talent"? "Elite arm" is mostly arm strength, the ability to drive the football at all levels of the field (short, intermediate, deep) with velocity. "Elite arm talent" is having the ability to throw the ball from various arm angles, under duress, cross body, etc think Mahomes, Rodgers, etc. Rare for most QBs DJ has an NFL average arm and below average arm talent, for context Eh, that sounds more like a nice to have. Jones isn't bad because he can't throw sidearm passes, he's bad because he doesn't have pocket awareness and the ability to improvise outside of taking off and running. Unfortunately I think pocket awareness and improvising is hard to translate from college to the NFL since everything happens that much quicker and windows to throw are open for less time.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Nov 9, 2023 12:57:50 GMT -5
Sadly, I’m starting to lean this way as well. I also haven’t been overwhelmed in the admittedly few games I’ve seen him play plus his personality MAY be a bit iffy. Still haven’t watched Maye play at all, really like Nix skills but injury history makes him a hard pass for me. I think you;re confusing Nix with Penix on the injuries, and perhaps the skills... Penix I like but don't see as a fit here he has questionable arm strength and the meadowlands isn't the place for an arm that is ok. If they draft one he needs have a good feel for pre and post snap precessing and be an anticipatory thrower, I think Penix has some of that. Nix I like he's a gamer he has some stuff to work out but i can see him being a good NFL QB needs to get his accuracy to be more consistent.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Nov 9, 2023 13:06:38 GMT -5
What's the difference between an "elite arm" and "elite arm talent"? "Elite arm" is mostly arm strength, the ability to drive the football at all levels of the field (short, intermediate, deep) with velocity. "Elite arm talent" is having the ability to throw the ball from various arm angles, under duress, cross body, etc think Mahomes, Rodgers, etc. Rare for most QBs DJ has an NFL average arm and below average arm talent, for context DJ has an arm that he will get the ball to his WR but the placement will be off usually. Also he doesn't like throwing field side to the point defenses give that to our offense knowing they won't take it and when they do he is not that effective. Watched a film break down the other day of the Raiders game Daboll new they would give that to us and had several plays dialed up to go after them DJ just couldn't do it starting with airmailing the first ball to SQB out in the flat, and then the misses to Hyatt and other throws just not taken.
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Post by inconvenientruth on Nov 9, 2023 13:08:05 GMT -5
"Elite arm" is mostly arm strength, the ability to drive the football at all levels of the field (short, intermediate, deep) with velocity. "Elite arm talent" is having the ability to throw the ball from various arm angles, under duress, cross body, etc think Mahomes, Rodgers, etc. Rare for most QBs DJ has an NFL average arm and below average arm talent, for context Eh, that sounds more like a nice to have. Jones isn't bad because he can't throw sidearm passes, he's bad because he doesn't have pocket awareness and the ability to improvise outside of taking off and running. Unfortunately I think pocket awareness and improvising is hard to translate from college to the NFL since everything happens that much quicker and windows to throw are open for less time. Big reason why he can't function under pressure is his lack of arm talent, and pocket awareness. An ugly combo. Arm talent is more a nice-to-have, however, in a league that is generally devoid of OL talent, having a QB that can throw off-platform is worth its weight in gold.
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Post by inconvenientruth on Nov 9, 2023 13:09:43 GMT -5
"Elite arm" is mostly arm strength, the ability to drive the football at all levels of the field (short, intermediate, deep) with velocity. "Elite arm talent" is having the ability to throw the ball from various arm angles, under duress, cross body, etc think Mahomes, Rodgers, etc. Rare for most QBs DJ has an NFL average arm and below average arm talent, for context DJ has an arm that he will get the ball to his WR but the placement will be off usually. Also he doesn't like throwing field side to the point defenses give that to our offense knowing they won't take it and when they do he is not that effective. Watched a film break down the other day of the Raiders game Daboll new they would give that to us and had several plays dialed up to go after them DJ just couldn't do it starting with airmailing the first ball to SQB out in the flat, and then the misses to Hyatt and other throws just not taken. DJs ball placement last year was pretty good? i was shocked to see how poorly he was seeing it this year. confidence certainly played a part, along with a porous OL, and defenses taking away his first read.
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Post by Fletch842 on Nov 9, 2023 13:19:59 GMT -5
I think you;re confusing Nix with Penix on the injuries, and perhaps the skills... His last name is Penix? How is that possible? at least his parents were kind enough to not name him Richard...
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Nov 9, 2023 13:40:50 GMT -5
DJ has an arm that he will get the ball to his WR but the placement will be off usually. Also he doesn't like throwing field side to the point defenses give that to our offense knowing they won't take it and when they do he is not that effective. Watched a film break down the other day of the Raiders game Daboll new they would give that to us and had several plays dialed up to go after them DJ just couldn't do it starting with airmailing the first ball to SQB out in the flat, and then the misses to Hyatt and other throws just not taken. DJs ball placement last year was pretty good? i was shocked to see how poorly he was seeing it this year. confidence certainly played a part, along with a porous OL, and defenses taking away his first read. Yea I was a bit worried that Defenses were gonna get that year of tape and come back with answers, from the tape break down I saw the Giants had answers for that but DJ was not equipped to handle the expansion fo the playbook at least it looks like that on tape. Agree at the end of last year especially I thought he was throwing the ball accurately and on time to all levels but that cam with time in the pocket when the Eagles took time and space from him along as you said taking the first read it gave the blue print.
Daboll had answers he just seemed unprepared or not able to execute what need to be executed.
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Post by myronguyton29 on Nov 9, 2023 13:47:28 GMT -5
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Post by McCherry on Nov 9, 2023 13:54:45 GMT -5
In terms of talent to succeed in the NFL I give Williams a 9. In terms of intangibles to succeed in the NFL I give him a 2.
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Merlin
Special Teams
Posts: 358
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Post by Merlin on Nov 9, 2023 13:57:28 GMT -5
I'm no expert scout. But been warming to the idea of a trade down with eyes on Bo Nix. 5 years college starting experience can do wonders in the NFL imo. To go along with physical measurables and still untapped potential.
Very rare combination.
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Post by myronguyton29 on Nov 9, 2023 13:57:37 GMT -5
In terms of talent to succeed in the NFL I give Williams a 9. In terms of intangibles to succeed in the NFL I give him a 2. interesting..............
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Post by lt56 on Nov 9, 2023 14:11:03 GMT -5
CJ Stroud rookie success is incredible to watch but it is rare so No it doesn't mean that Caleb Williams or Drake Maye will do the same in 2024
Still have my doubts we end up with the #1 Pick but I trust Schoen and his staff to make the right Decision, Scouts are working year traveling the country evaluating Talent while most of us just show up with an Opinion around draft time not really knowing much about the Players besides what Mel Kiper tells us
If they feel Caleb is special talent then take him, if they feel Drake Maye upside is greater then take him. If they think both are a bit overrated and want to go another direct at QB then trade out. That is why Schoen gets paid well to make tough decisions!
This Organization is in no position to pass on a QB though if given the opportunity...what is the Alternative? Sticking with Daniel Jones? Trading for Kyler Murray?
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Post by vinnie on Nov 9, 2023 14:21:44 GMT -5
Sadly, I’m starting to lean this way as well. I also haven’t been overwhelmed in the admittedly few games I’ve seen him play plus his personality MAY be a bit iffy. Still haven’t watched Maye play at all, really like Nix skills but injury history makes him a hard pass for me. I think you;re confusing Nix with Penix on the injuries, and perhaps the skills... I absolutely did, thanks for the correction, obviously a huge brain fart. Penix is who I meant, don’t know what the hell I was thinking or perhaps I wasn’t
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Post by vinnie on Nov 9, 2023 14:23:13 GMT -5
Sadly, I’m starting to lean this way as well. I also haven’t been overwhelmed in the admittedly few games I’ve seen him play plus his personality MAY be a bit iffy. Still haven’t watched Maye play at all, really like Nix skills but injury history makes him a hard pass for me.What is his injury history? I haven't heard anyone mention it only his age. I f’ed up, meant Penix.
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Post by myronguyton29 on Nov 9, 2023 14:28:31 GMT -5
CJ Stroud rookie success is incredible to watch but it is rare so No it doesn't mean that Caleb Williams or Drake Maye will do the same in 2024 Still have my doubts we end up with the #1 Pick but I trust Schoen and his staff to make the right Decision, Scouts are working year traveling the country evaluating Talent while most of us just show up with an Opinion around draft time not really knowing much about the Players besides what Mel Kiper tells us If they feel Caleb is special talent then take him, if they feel Drake Maye upside is greater then take him. If they think both are a bit overrated and want to go another direct at QB then trade out. That is why Schoen gets paid well to make tough decisions! This Organization is in no position to pass on a QB though if given the opportunity...what is the Alternative? Sticking with Daniel Jones? Trading for Kyler Murray? the same chance you take on a bum like Williams you can take that same chance on another qb on your radar in later rounds just like other teams have hit on ones in the 4th, 6th, and final rounds of the draft for example...............
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Post by vinnie on Nov 9, 2023 14:41:54 GMT -5
I honestly wonder, and think it’s a fair question to ask, if Schoen feels more pressure to draft a QB than trade back and here’s why. If he drafts a new QB, it will buy him at least 2 more years no matter how bad they do IMO. It’s probably safe to assume they won’t be making the playoffs the rookies first year and maybe start making a playoff push in 2025.
On the other hand, if he trades back and adds a few more pieces then we probably still don’t make the playoffs with whatever mish mash of QB’s we have playing next year. So then we draft a rookie QB in 2025, he has a typical rookie season and then that’s 2 years of losing. That means the earliest we can make a playoff push would be 2026. I don’t know if Mara would have the patience for that, BUT if Schien drafts a QB and he shows he’s an obvious franchise QB within the first two years, I think Mara would be a little more tolerant.
Just a thought. To sum it up, drafting a rookie QB buys him more time IMO.
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Post by myronguyton29 on Nov 9, 2023 14:48:26 GMT -5
I honestly wonder, and think it’s a fair question to ask, if Schoen feels more pressure to draft a QB than trade back and here’s why. If he drafts a new QB, it will buy him at least 2 more years no matter how bad they do IMO. It’s probably safe to assume they won’t be making the playoffs the rookies first year and maybe start making a playoff push in 2025. On the other hand, if he trades back and adds a few more pieces then we probably still don’t make the playoffs with whatever mish mash of QB’s we have playing next year. So then we draft a rookie QB in 2025, he has a typical rookie season and then that’s 2 years of losing. That means the earliest we can make a playoff push would be 2026. I don’t know if Mara would have the patience for that, BUT if Schien drafts a QB and he shows he’s an obvious franchise QB within the first two years, I think Mara would be a little more tolerant. Just a thought. To sum it up, drafting a rookie QB buys him more time IMO. i don't know mannnnnnnnnnn, I don't know...............
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Post by inconvenientruth on Nov 9, 2023 14:50:43 GMT -5
In terms of talent to succeed in the NFL I give Williams a 9. In terms of intangibles to succeed in the NFL I give him a 2. What is this scale based on? how would you score DJ based on the same scale?
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