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Post by Speedman on Jun 7, 2018 16:23:57 GMT -5
Webb may turn out to be a bargain. ...or, he may turn out to be the next Ryan Nassib. Time will tell.
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Post by TEM on Jun 7, 2018 19:04:55 GMT -5
Great NFL QB's can be effective for 15 years plus. great NFL RB's can be effective for 5 or so years. NFL QB's have the biggest impact on their team than any position in any sport. RB's are about near the bottom of the list of positions of impact.
I still wouldn't gamble on a QB with a 33% chance if only one of them pans out. That will set the franchise back for several years.
The guys on this list say and prove you are wrong. www.espn.com/nfl/history/leaders/_/stat/rushleadQuoted the wrong poster it was for morehead,
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Post by TEM on Jun 7, 2018 19:12:03 GMT -5
The team knows what they have in Webb more than the QBs in this draft. You don't really know until a backup actually plays a whole game. Even then it takes a while for acclimation to the regular season. The coaches have had a lot of experience and success working with QBs. I'm not so sure how Gettleman, Shurmur, et al knew what they had in Webb going into the draft. "You don't really know until a backup actually plays a whole game. Even then it takes a while for acclimation to the regular season" Exactly my point. He could have had 8 games of experience under his belt. Which would have given the new regime significant film to study and shape their philosophy. I do not get your point . Wouldn't the NCAA film on Webb be just as good as a discovery tool as the film that was used Draft prospects in this years draft. By this post you should not draft a QB because you do not know what the draftee is until he plays a whole game. This post make no sense. Are you saying film is no good as an evaluation tool? Really ?
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Post by TEM on Jun 7, 2018 19:16:15 GMT -5
However your logic fails initially with the assumption that Barkley is a 100% chance of a great success. There are several other great RBs that could have been taken in the draft that may provide 80-90% of the production of Barkley (assuming he is a home run) and you've missed out on an Eli replacement. Apparently the FO did not feel one was worthy of the #2 pick. If they did , Getty would have pulled the trigger. That is a simple concept to grasp.
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Post by TEM on Jun 7, 2018 19:18:02 GMT -5
However your logic fails initially with the assumption that Barkley is a 100% chance of a great success. There are several other great RBs that could have been taken in the draft that may provide 80-90% of the production of Barkley (assuming he is a home run) and you've missed out on an Eli replacement. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! I don't get how more people don't understand this. Refer to the post above this one.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2018 19:20:21 GMT -5
I'm not so sure how Gettleman, Shurmur, et al knew what they had in Webb going into the draft. "You don't really know until a backup actually plays a whole game. Even then it takes a while for acclimation to the regular season" Exactly my point. He could have had 8 games of experience under his belt. Which would have given the new regime significant film to study and shape their philosophy. I do not get your point . Wouldn't the NCAA film on Webb be just as good as a discovery tool as the film that was used Draft prospects in this years draft. By this post you should not draft a QB because you do not know what the draftee is until he plays a whole game. This post make no sense. Are you saying film is no good as an evaluation tool? Really ? It’s simple really. Having NFL film on a guy helps you better evaluate him for the NFL. Not to mention the whole game week experience he gains.
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Post by TEM on Jun 7, 2018 19:30:24 GMT -5
I do not get your point . Wouldn't the NCAA film on Webb be just as good as a discovery tool as the film that was used Draft prospects in this years draft. By this post you should not draft a QB because you do not know what the draftee is until he plays a whole game. This post make no sense. Are you saying film is no good as an evaluation tool? Really ? It’s simple really. Having NFL film on a guy helps you better evaluate him for the NFL. Not to mention the whole game week experience he gains. Your point is a what if . Not what do we have ,You are dismissing what they had on hand to evaluate with. Do you really think a competent GM would use the point you made, and surrender because he has not played in the NFl. We don't know what we have in him ? Your IQ is too high to pawn that as reality.
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Post by JoeyCush on Jun 7, 2018 19:34:42 GMT -5
I'm sure now the Colts wish they stuck with Manning for the remaining years of his career instead of cutting him and drafting Andrew Luck, "the most NFL ready QB ever"
Sh*t happens man.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2018 21:29:25 GMT -5
I'm sure now the Colts wish they stuck with Manning for the remaining years of his career instead of cutting him and drafting Andrew Luck, "the most NFL ready QB ever" Sh*t happens man. Yeah, Andrew Luck really sucks popcorn
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Jaydub
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Post by Jaydub on Jun 7, 2018 21:35:09 GMT -5
I'm sure now the Colts wish they stuck with Manning for the remaining years of his career instead of cutting him and drafting Andrew Luck, "the most NFL ready QB ever" Sh*t happens man. Yeah, Andrew Luck really sucks He hasn't exactly done them much good as of late, has he? Say the last 2 years?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2018 22:19:20 GMT -5
Yeah, Andrew Luck really sucks He hasn't exactly done them much good as of late, has he? Say the last 2 years? OBJ didn't do us much good last year...he's still a good receiver.
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Post by Jaydub on Jun 7, 2018 22:30:29 GMT -5
He hasn't exactly done them much good as of late, has he? Say the last 2 years? OBJ didn't do us much good last year...he's still a good receiver. A QB who can’t throw a football is pretty useless. That’s a ridiculous comparison
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 7, 2018 23:06:08 GMT -5
OBJ didn't do us much good last year...he's still a good receiver. A QB who can’t throw a football is pretty useless. That’s a ridiculous comparison He got hurt. It happens in the NFL. Any player can get hurt who's on the field.
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Post by JoeyCush on Jun 8, 2018 0:49:18 GMT -5
I'm sure now the Colts wish they stuck with Manning for the remaining years of his career instead of cutting him and drafting Andrew Luck, "the most NFL ready QB ever" Sh*t happens man. Yeah, Andrew Luck really sucks What Im saying is the 4 years Peyton played for Denver was more successful than Luck has been with Indi since they drafted him and pushed out Peyton. And its possible Luck is never the same again. Then what? Again, sh*t happens.
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Post by psmurph on Jun 8, 2018 5:45:16 GMT -5
I assuming it's a nifty play on "Sam" Darnold and Mark "Sanchez." You know, because they were both drafted by the jets. Both were out of USC too, weren't they?
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Post by nick030567 on Jun 8, 2018 7:54:04 GMT -5
Gotta love that CIA created term conspiracy theory lol. But using conspiracy theory does allow you to discredit people real easily without actually taking a closer at what they're saying. Look most of what I said is pretty accurate. I didn't say that's the way it goes all the time, I said typically. Meaning often but not always. I believe I did include athletic freaks such as Lamar Jackson. And there are those instances where a QB that was involved with a less prestigious program will be ranked high, I wasn't being an absolutist. I also stated that Webb played one season at Cal, which is probably a more reputable program than many universtities. In addition he played his previous at Texas Tech and statistically those seasons don't look that awe inspiring. That doesn't give most scouts enough confidence to draft someone in the first round. I also stated that how the TEAM the Qb was on performs for the season probably has some weight on how high a QB is ranked. My general premise is that the media hypes up every QB draft class and thus for many it steers their perception on that draft class, especially when you believe your team needs a QB.
The thing is that most of those who are agreeing with my general opinion are just stating that they don't believe the melodramatic and short sighted narrative that not drafting one of the QB's out of this years draft will harm the Giants irreparably. There will be future drafts with other good QB prospects. Not any of us (from what I've seen, could be wrong)have stated that Webb will be the starter. or that Webb will be great. Just that (which is totally realistic and rational) he has just as much of a chance to succeed as any of the Qb's taken out of this years first round. It's on him as to whether he manifests himself as a starting QB when given the opportunity. He has to be mentally prepared and back it up with the physical attributes that he already has.
Just look up the guys highlights and other game film, he really looks quite good. Basically just as good with his arm as any of the top ranked prospects for THIS years draft, I wasn't referring to last years or 2016s draft. He Fits the ball in tight spaces down the field, accurate, strong arm, pretty good mobility in the pocket and pretty quick on his feet. Generally always looks comfortable and confident. He's a good prospect and has all the tools, he just has to continue to improve. He just wasn't a flashy prospect and he didn't play on good enough teams to raise his ranking.
This all began with me asking, "Why was Davis Webb drafted in the late-third round while the others were all grabbed in the first 10 picks?". The only possibility you suggested was a bias (I won't use the term "conspiracy theory" since it seems to bother you) against Webb because he played at Cal. Of course, there IS another possibility...that NFL scouts just saw something in Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen, and Wyoming's Josh Allen that they didn't see in Webb. And if that's the case, then it's something that all 32 NFL GMs appeared to see. Let me ask you something. Do you think that if Josh Allen, for example, was still on the board at #34 when the Giants picked again that Gettleman would have taken him? I do. I - and many others - would think him an absolute fool if he didn't. So, what does that tell you? Would Gettleman use a 2nd-round pick on a guy he thought had no better chance of success than a late-third rounder he already has on his roster? You may think that the first-rounders have no better chance of success than does Davis Webb. But the statistics don't back up your assertion. I don't really want to trot out the numbers I used to show this over at TAGF, but I can if you want me to. Btw, I can't help but point out that you explained the origins of the term "conspiracy theory" by introducing another conspiracy theory (that the CIA foisted the term on us, presumably to cover their own nefarious activities). Good stuff I actually provided more than a bias if you read my other post, I reasoned out a plausible explanation; not a good enough resume to be drafted in the first or second round of the 2017 draft. What some state, including myself is that Webb looks just as good as any of the prospects that were hyped up (and the sports media certainly does hype a lot) in this years draft of 2018. You would have to actually think for yourself and watch with your own eyes and look past the stats to see what I'm talking about in regards to Webb's performance in 2016 at Cal. He looked quite good. But yes his entire college resume statistically isn't all that awe-inspiring. But I do think he looked promising when looking at his game film for 2016. Does that give a team enough reason to draft him in the first when they're trying to instill some hope in both the fans and the locker room? No I think not. There just wasn;t enough value there. But that has literally nothing to do with his potential and value going forward. To speculate whether Gettleman would've or not is actually a theory, it's pure speculation. How do you know? How would any of us know?? People said the same thing about the first round. That there was no way Gettleman would pass up a QB picking second overall. But he did. In my opinion he wouldn't have because the entire roster has holes in it and obviously they already have a prospect that they think has potential. And that's funny because it's actually in a CIA declassified memo about the psychological operations they run in our nation and around the world.. Not a theory, it's a fact, released by the CIA in a declassified document in 1976. Just like much of what is termed a "Conspiracy theory" but it's really just information some people aren't aware of. Here's a link to the document if you care to check it out. www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=53510#relPageId=2&tab=pageHere's a good video on the document as well which expands on it a bit.
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Post by Jaydub on Jun 8, 2018 8:01:11 GMT -5
A QB who can’t throw a football is pretty useless. That’s a ridiculous comparison He got hurt. It happens in the NFL. Any player can get hurt who's on the field. Of course, but that wasn't the point.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 11:15:14 GMT -5
It’s simple really. Having NFL film on a guy helps you better evaluate him for the NFL. Not to mention the whole game week experience he gains. Your point is a what if . Not what do we have ,You are dismissing what they had on hand to evaluate with. Do you really think a competent GM would use the point you made, and surrender because he has not played in the NFl. We don't know what we have in him ? Your IQ is too high to pawn that as reality. I think you're overcomplicating this. The Giants would be far better off evaluating Webb for the NFL if they not only had NFL film on him but tangible experience of how he prepares the week of a game, how he can learn a scheme, how he can learn the game plan, how he handles himself on game day and how he performs in an actual NFL game. That's far better evaluation fodder than just NCAA game film. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree. If NCAA game film was sufficient enough to evaluate how a QB will perform in the NFL then wouldn't every NCAA QB who lights it up succeed in the NFL?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 11:51:23 GMT -5
Your point is a what if . Not what do we have ,You are dismissing what they had on hand to evaluate with. Do you really think a competent GM would use the point you made, and surrender because he has not played in the NFl. We don't know what we have in him ? Your IQ is too high to pawn that as reality. I think you're overcomplicating this. The Giants would be far better off evaluating Webb for the NFL if they not only had NFL film on him but tangible experience of how he prepares the week of a game, how he can learn a scheme, how he can learn the game plan, how he handles himself on game day and how he performs in an actual NFL game. That's far better evaluation fodder than just NCAA game film. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree. If NCAA game film was sufficient enough to evaluate how a QB will perform in the NFL then wouldn't every NCAA QB who lights it up succeed in the NFL? ...or running back, for that matter.
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Post by Speedman on Jun 8, 2018 12:27:33 GMT -5
I think you're overcomplicating this. The Giants would be far better off evaluating Webb for the NFL if they not only had NFL film on him but tangible experience of how he prepares the week of a game, how he can learn a scheme, how he can learn the game plan, how he handles himself on game day and how he performs in an actual NFL game. That's far better evaluation fodder than just NCAA game film. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree. If NCAA game film was sufficient enough to evaluate how a QB will perform in the NFL then wouldn't every NCAA QB who lights it up succeed in the NFL? ...or running back, for that matter. lol
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Post by GameTime on Jun 8, 2018 13:56:36 GMT -5
Each year the draft philosophy is different. Sometimes you hit and sometimes you don’t.
They took one of the top players in the draft. Not a bad thing at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 14:10:38 GMT -5
I think you're overcomplicating this. The Giants would be far better off evaluating Webb for the NFL if they not only had NFL film on him but tangible experience of how he prepares the week of a game, how he can learn a scheme, how he can learn the game plan, how he handles himself on game day and how he performs in an actual NFL game. That's far better evaluation fodder than just NCAA game film. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree. If NCAA game film was sufficient enough to evaluate how a QB will perform in the NFL then wouldn't every NCAA QB who lights it up succeed in the NFL? ...or running back, for that matter.
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Post by TEM on Jun 8, 2018 15:54:26 GMT -5
I think you're overcomplicating this. The Giants would be far better off evaluating Webb for the NFL if they not only had NFL film on him but tangible experience of how he prepares the week of a game, how he can learn a scheme, how he can learn the game plan, how he handles himself on game day and how he performs in an actual NFL game. That's far better evaluation fodder than just NCAA game film. I'm not sure how anyone can disagree. If NCAA game film was sufficient enough to evaluate how a QB will perform in the NFL then wouldn't every NCAA QB who lights it up succeed in the NFL? ...or running back, for that matter. It is not over compacted it is utilizing the resources available. If you do not as you say have that resource , You quit. That is weak stance. I am missing a washer to finish this engine build. I don't know how to remediate that issue. Bring the entire car to the scrap yard.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 16:30:43 GMT -5
...or running back, for that matter. It is not over compacted it is utilizing the resources available. If you do not as you say have that resource , You quit. That is weak stance. I am missing a washer to finish this engine build. I don't know how to remediate that issue. Bring the entire car to the scrap yard. That's a completely irrelevant and non-sequitur analogy. Wouldn't you better suited to make more in depth decisions if you had more resources available? Logic dictates a resounded "yes." Let me ask a simple question: Do you think you can better evaluate a QB to play in the NFL if you: A. Only have two year old NCAAF film on him. or B. Have two year old NCAAF film on him plus 8 weeks of NFL game film, 8 NFL game weeks, 32 days of NFL practice as a regular season game starter, 8 NFL weeks of game preparation, and 8 NFL week of offensive game planning? A simple "A" or "B" answer will suffice.
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Post by GameTime on Jun 8, 2018 16:37:24 GMT -5
why does it matter how they came to a conclusion to bank on Webb or not draft a QB at #2...
it doesnt matter really does it.
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Post by TEM on Jun 8, 2018 16:39:55 GMT -5
It is not over compacted it is utilizing the resources available. If you do not as you say have that resource , You quit. That is weak stance. I am missing a washer to finish this engine build. I don't know how to remediate that issue. Bring the entire car to the scrap yard. That's a completely irrelevant and non-sequitur analogy. Wouldn't you better suited to make more in depth decisions if you had more resources available? Logic dictates a resounded "yes." Let me ask a simple question: Do you think you can better evaluate a QB to play in the NFL if you: A. Only have two year old NCAAF film on him. or B. Have two year old NCAAF film on him plus 8 weeks of NFL game film, 8 NFL game weeks, 32 days of NFL practice as a regular season game starter, 8 NFL weeks of game preparation, and 8 NFL week of offensive game planning? A simple "A" or "B" answer will suffice. You are making a point with 2 scenarios and one of which does not exist. What is better? A) Hydrocarbon fueled automobile. B) Anti gravity spaceship powered by a Fusion Reactor. That is what your point equates to. To answer you question "A" because the other option is not a viable one.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 21:11:15 GMT -5
If Webb went 0-8 and threw 20 INT the Giants probably wouldn’t have drafted a QB in the first judging by DG’s comments. So I think it’s a moot point if he had played. DG expects at least 2-3 year’s from Eli and then gauge the QB position when the time comes.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 8, 2018 21:46:35 GMT -5
If Webb went 0-8 and threw 20 INT the Giants probably wouldn’t have drafted a QB in the first judging by DG’s comments. So I think it’s a moot point if he had played. DG expects at least 2-3 year’s from Eli and then gauge the QB position when the time comes. And you know this....how?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 22:28:33 GMT -5
That's a completely irrelevant and non-sequitur analogy. Wouldn't you better suited to make more in depth decisions if you had more resources available? Logic dictates a resounded "yes." Let me ask a simple question: Do you think you can better evaluate a QB to play in the NFL if you: A. Only have two year old NCAAF film on him. or B. Have two year old NCAAF film on him plus 8 weeks of NFL game film, 8 NFL game weeks, 32 days of NFL practice as a regular season game starter, 8 NFL weeks of game preparation, and 8 NFL week of offensive game planning? A simple "A" or "B" answer will suffice. You are making a point with 2 scenarios and one of which does not exist. That’s the entire point of my first post, which you quoted. If both scenarios A and B existed, with which do you think you can better evaluate a QB to play in the NFL ? Simple “A” or “B” answer.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 2:46:22 GMT -5
If Webb went 0-8 and threw 20 INT the Giants probably wouldn’t have drafted a QB in the first judging by DG’s comments. So I think it’s a moot point if he had played. DG expects at least 2-3 year’s from Eli and then gauge the QB position when the time comes. And you know this....how? because DG made it clear none of these QB were worth the #2. It was Barkley or trade down. Unless he wanted Mayfield this whole time, which I doubt.
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